Unlagged: Good or Absolute Scum

[Eeeew Spiders]

Yes, some people prefer an artificial advantage that gives others a disadvantage.

Unlagged = elementary school philosophy of punishing the whole class for Johnny Rottenping's misbehaviour or misfortune.

When you put these two quotes together, I have to laugh very loud
Kind of made my day.

misfortune For those that have to play with a ping above 100 or 200, they are misfortunate and it's good there are servers they can play. For those that can choose servers with a ping of 2-100 should do so unless they like to make it a lil harder on them selfs and others. For those that play with <100 ping there is no misfortune cause it is actually very easy to compansate your shots for this lag.
artificial Net latencies are not artificial, its the nature of the internet. Deal with it (to quote some of you :-D ). Taking away the WISIWYGiness (to quote you) for low pingers to even up playingfield sound a lot more artificial in my eyes. What you are saying is like saying that we all should use crutches to even up playingfield for those that broke their leg.

[jal]

I think people missunderstands who beneficts of antilag. When properly set up, very low pingers (below 40) get just the same thing as now, from there to ping 100 get the biggest improvement (yes, people with 40 ping are beneficted by antilag too). People pinging above 100 will pretty much have the same disadvantage with or without antilag (but can cause feedback glitches on others if antilag is not limited).
I was a Q2 and Q3 player, so I'm used to guess the real player position when aiming. I do have pings around 60 most of the times. Since I played ET, I think it's stupid to keep games without antilag. The playing experience is simply superior. It's not even about balancing the playing field, it's about improving the experience for most people.

[Nux]

Firstly, I think it's only kind I mention that "Benefict" isn't a word. I think you mean "Benefit".

Secondly, since you seem to be missing my point, I'll repeat it. Though a well defined reconciliation shouldn't affect low-pingers, it still does so because the high pingers can shoot them in places they aren't. This makes the game alot less enjoyable for the low-pinger who now can't dodge shots that are made at him by a high-pinger in a lag spike. All he gets is the information that he was killed on the high-pingers computer. What the high-pinger sees the low-pingers movements as do not correctly portray his actual movements, so why should he be allowed to attack this false image and yet kill him in the low-pingers reality too?

[Eeeew Spiders]

I think people missunderstands who beneficts of antilag. When properly set up, very low pingers (below 40) get just the same thing as now, from there to ping 100 get the biggest improvement (yes, people with 40 ping are beneficted by antilag too). People pinging above 100 will pretty much have the same disadvantage with or without antilag (but can cause feedback glitches on others if antilag is not limited).
I was a Q2 and Q3 player, so I'm used to guess the real player position when aiming. I do have pings around 60 most of the times. Since I played ET, I think it's stupid to keep games without antilag. The playing experience is simply superior. It's not even about balancing the playing field, it's about improving the experience for most people.

I am not sure where our problem is, you don't seem to contradict what we are saying nor does it seem that we contradict what you are saying. Only the  focus of our emphasis seem to differ.
I agree that for a 40ms pinger playing on a server with other 40ms pingers does not make much of a difference, I also agree with you that for players with 100ms or above do benefit from Unlagged. I think Survivors question on the previous page is very interesting and I am curious about your answer to that. The explanation that all give in favor of Unlagged only focus on aim and shots, but Trem is a lot more than just aim and shoot, especially for aliens, who have to rely on movement and not aim and shoot. When having to rely on your movements in contrast to the opponents movement what you see does matter, since this is what you base your movements on. I am completely not sure you can compare Tremulous with ET or any other rifle-vs-rifle game (that is also why i like tremulous a lot more than those other games, kudos to the Tremulous devs for that).

[kevlarman]

I think people missunderstands who beneficts of antilag. When properly set up, very low pingers (below 40) get just the same thing as now, from there to ping 100 get the biggest improvement (yes, people with 40 ping are beneficted by antilag too). People pinging above 100 will pretty much have the same disadvantage with or without antilag (but can cause feedback glitches on others if antilag is not limited).
I was a Q2 and Q3 player, so I'm used to guess the real player position when aiming. I do have pings around 60 most of the times. Since I played ET, I think it's stupid to keep games without antilag. The playing experience is simply superior. It's not even about balancing the playing field, it's about improving the experience for most people.

I am not sure where our problem is, you don't seem to contradict what we are saying nor does it seem that we contradict what you are saying. Only the  focus of our emphasis seem to differ.
I agree that for a 40ms pinger playing on a server with other 40ms pingers does not make much of a difference, I also agree with you that for players with 100ms or above do benefit from Unlagged. I think Survivors question on the previous page is very interesting and I am curious about your answer to that. The explanation that all give in favor of Unlagged only focus on aim and shots, but Trem is a lot more than just aim and shoot, especially for aliens, who have to rely on movement and not aim and shoot. When having to rely on your movements in contrast to the opponents movement what you see does matter, since this is what you base your movements on. I am completely not sure you can compare Tremulous with ET or any other rifle-vs-rifle game (that is also why i like tremulous a lot more than those other games, kudos to the Tremulous devs for that).

if movement is that critical, then why don't you play with cg_nopredict 1? it has at least as much effect on your complaints as unlagged does (and on servers without an updated cgame it can give quite an fps boost), but then not only do you have to lead other players, you also have to lead yourself...

[jal]

Secondly, since you seem to be missing my point, I'll repeat it. Though a well defined reconciliation shouldn't affect low-pingers, it still does so because the high pingers can shoot them in places they aren't.

This is a false statement. They can never shoot you at places where you aren't. They did shoot you at the place you were. You are just getting the feedback late.

I am not sure where our problem is, you don't seem to contradict what we are saying nor does it seem that we contradict what you are saying. Only the  focus of our emphasis seem to differ.
I agree that for a 40ms pinger playing on a server with other 40ms pingers does not make much of a difference, I also agree with you that for players with 100ms or above do benefit from Unlagged.

But this is not what I'm saying! What I say is that people with pings below 100 are the ones who benefit more of antilag. Below, not above.

[Nux]

I'm not sure why you're not getting this =/ The frustration comes from me having dodged; him- having not received the information that I have dodged -slashing the out-dated version of me (a version that no longer corresponds with my perspective); him killing me on his screen and unlagged making this so on my screen. I could have fallen a great distance away from their attack from my view-point and yet he still gets the kill.

If I have the lowest ping then my viewpoint would be recieved by the server first. I'd be receiving information from the server first. My view-point would be the most consistent if it weren't for unlagged constantly redefining what happened. So as I have said very early on in this discussion, all unlagged is doing is making all the low-pingers view-points less consistent and all the high-pinging viewpoints true for everyone- no matter whether what they see of their enemies is near to entirely based off predictions of their motion. I could be trying to walk through a wall on their screen yet they can shoot at the silly version of me and hit.

[kevlarman]

I'm not sure why you're not getting this =/ The frustration comes from me having dodged; him- having not received the information that I have dodged -slashing the out-dated version of me (a version that no longer corresponds with my perspective); him killing me on his screen and unlagged making this so on my screen. I could have fallen a great distance away from their attack from my view-point and yet he still gets the kill.

but you can't dodge, it's hitscan. the only thing you can do is guess when and where he will attack and avoid that spot at that time, unlagged doesn't change this, it only (very slightly) offsets the position and time that this should happen.

[Eeeew Spiders]

if movement is that critical, then why don't you play with cg_nopredict 1? it has at least as much effect on your complaints as unlagged does

Well, to hell then with cg_nopredict 0
actually no idea what that does or how it effects movement. Will try to look it up
But as I understand from a quick peek, cg_nopredict only effects your client locally, but does not effect the playability for other players on the same server.

This is a false statement. They can never shoot you at places where you aren't. They did shoot you at the place you were.

If i would try to be pedantic, I'd say where you were is not where you are, so it would be a true statement:D
But to be more helpful I would say that it cannot be said like that without a clear definition about is and was, since with high ping these terms seem a bit fuzzy or don't seem to match with the different perspectives we are having.

You are just getting the feedback late.

using the same logic you can also say that the high pinger got the feedback late of the move of the opponent. We are just partly shifting the effects of high ping around from the high pinger to the low pinger and not making  it disappear.

But this is not what I'm saying! What I say is that people with pings below 100 are the ones who benefit more of antilag. Below, not above.

Ok, so I am getting it right that people above 100ms don't benefit as much from Unlagged (antilag) as those below 100ms? But why would you need Unlagged with a ping below 100ms? From the post of others I understood that Unlagged is to make the game more playable for people with a much higher ping than that, for those that do not have a server close to their location.

[Nux]

People who speak of hitscan weapons as some god-like unstoppable force that cannot be dodged, must not be used to dodging on low-ping servers. Dodging is more than seeing a projectile and moving yourself out of the way. It's keeping the enemy on their toes and forcing them to move their mouse as much as possible. When there's a dretch at your feet, you have 4 hp and 3 shots left in your massdriver, aiming is not so easy. All the small changes in movement that are so easy to account for at a distance become too big to accourately account for at close distance. You can still try to predict where they'll go but it's not so easy any more. When unlagged makes the low-pinging dretch move in a straight line for a second on the high-pinging humans screen, the human is given an opportunity to kill the dretch he never would have had without it. Without unlagged, the high-pinger would shoot at the predicited position of me and quite rightly miss, for it's only the prediction that decided I was there- not me.

I'll stress, the inconsistent world- which is unavoidable when high-pings are concerned -is not preferable, but is tolerable if you have no alternative. The inconsistent world of lag is brought into low-pingers lives by unlagged to an extent I'm not comfortable with and so I see no reason to make unlagged an unavoidable factor. Unlagged should always be only an option and I hope that those who think otherwise are never given what they want.

[kevlarman]

When unlagged makes the low-pinging dretch move in a straight line for a second on the high-pinging humans screen, the human is given an opportunity to kill the dretch he never would have had without it. Without unlagged, the high-pinger would shoot at the predicited position of me and quite rightly miss, for it's only the prediction that decided I was there- not me.

this is a flat out lie.

[Nux]

If you could elaborate I'd appreciate it.

Assuming that my position on his screen is based off predictions, I disagree with allowing only a prediction of my position to be shot at and potentially kill me.

Assuming that there is no prediction and my position on his screen is based off past motions I have made on mine, I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.

If there is no prediction and he lags considerably, then I disagree with him being able to shoot/kill/in any way interact with the lifeless shell of an opponent that he is viewing on his screen.

No matter where my assumptions are, the concept is deplorable.

If I were to propose that being laggy were comparable to being drunk, then unlagged would be the magical booze-pixie who goes round making the world into whatever the drunk things it is. I'm sure the drunk wouldn't complain but I'm not so sure about all the people who are turned into sick fantasies of a dribbling dunkard.

[kevlarman]

I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.

too bad, even with unlagged off this happens.

If there is no prediction and he lags considerably, then I disagree with him being able to shoot/kill/in any way interact with the lifeless shell of an opponent that he is viewing on his screen.

No matter where my assumptions are, the concept is deplorable.

there is no prediction made on other players positions, only your own. time still passes if the player has an unstable connection, if they see you not moving on their screen because of packet loss, then what they see no longer lines up with what they have to shoot for. unlagged makes no attempt to make things easier for players with bad connections (in fact if tjw ever finishes that antiwarp patch it will make things quite a bit harder), what it does do is smooth out small ping differences to make the game more even.

[temple]

People just need to actually play on Unlagged servers.  

I play on D*S mostly and its far from the experience people make on this thread.

1. Opponents can't rely on last second dodging anymore.
2. I can't rely on last second dodging anymore.
That is the fairness of it.

Human vs Alien
I'm a shit load more deadly.  Dretches running on the ground get swept up consistently.  Marauders don't survive their getaways as much if you can aim.  That's about it.  The power weapons are ballistic (pulse and luci) so Unlagged doesn't really change that.

Alien vs Human
My dretch bites are more lethal.  I can run past a human and connect regardless of how erratic they move.  

The biggest thing with Unlagged is that Alien range seems longer.  I can explain this.  When playing an alien, humans backpeddling will appear in one position but are actually a few steps farther in reality.  With Unlagged, alien attacks are instant damage when the Human is in range.  
Without Unlagged, its hard to consistently hit a backpeddling human because they will appear in range but when I attack, the split second (milliseconds) of unreliable data will allow the human to be out my reach.  You have to overcompensate by getting closer to humans.  
With Unlagged, my attacks are instant.  So eventhough the human was moving out my reach, they can't move faster than my instant attack and I hit them alot more.  

Its the exact same with Humans' attack.  An alien can be sitting on the edge of a corner.  Without Unlagged, the small ping difference allows the alien to see or hear the shot go off before all the bullets connect, allow for last second evasion.  Now with Unlagged, the bullets are moving truly instantly, so by the time they hear the shot, it too late.  The alien can move but they are already dead.  Its like with light and sound...if you hear thunder, the lighting has already struck somewhere.  You have to be preemptively evading to ensure evasion.  

On Dodging, everyone has to be dodging earlier and not relying on erratic motion to 'lag' up the other player's prediction.  It goes both ways.  Humans are a lot more accurate (if they are already accurate) and pull of a last second shot that saves them.  They can spray and pray and possibly hit something.  For Aliens, they can 'chomp and pray' more reliably because it will hit something.  Both teams are balance by the delay in attack speed so they can't consistently spray and pray to get kills.  But dodging is less run around like an idiot and more about buying time to finish people off.

If you could elaborate I'd appreciate it.

Assuming that my position on his screen is based off predictions, I disagree with allowing only a prediction of my position to be shot at and potentially kill me.

Assuming that there is no prediction and my position on his screen is based off past motions I have made on mine, I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.

If there is no prediction and he lags considerably, then I disagree with him being able to shoot/kill/in any way interact with the lifeless shell of an opponent that he is viewing on his screen.

No matter where my assumptions are, the concept is deplorable.

You don't know what you are talking about.  

This is like politics when people teach the controversy.  'E-vilution is a THERORY, ITS NOT TRUE!11111111'  I don't even want to respond but its so stupid I have to.

Prediction in this case means what you are screen sees.  Its just to assist the client with showing more reliable information.  This client is trying to fill in the gaps so the gameplay appears smoother.   This kind of prediction will not allow people to kill because its pure prediction.  The server code and Unlagged will not recognize shots based on this prediction.  

It is getting to point where people are nitpicking the small morsels of information in thread but don't actually understand the Unlagged code.  I don't know the Unlagged whole code but I know the components behind it.  Please read up on it instead trying to make comments based on the shallow information given in the thread.
http://alternatefire.planetquake.gamespy.com/unlagged_faq.html

[Nux]

there is no prediction made on other players positions, only your own

Unless you're refering to me in particular (in which case it's very disturbing that unlagged would single me out), 'you' and 'me' are interchangeable in such a hypothetical statement unless you set boundaries (which you haven't done).

So I can only pressume that you mean there is no prediction made on the low-pingers view. Whereas there is prediction on the high-pingers view. If so, then I will clarify that it is the high-pingers view I am talking about.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Though it can be hard to keep track of, I have only ever been responding to comments made in this thread. When speaking of the 'kills based off predictions' I'm referring to the reconciliation mentioned many times throughout this thread. I have come to understand this as an active rewriting of events based off differing views between laggy players. If this is bunk and nothing like what unlagged does, then I'd be glad to hear it.

[kevlarman]

there is no prediction made on other players positions, only your own

Unless you're refering to me in particular (in which case it's very disturbing that unlagged would single me out), 'you' and 'me' are interchangeable in such a hypothetical statement unless you set boundaries (which you haven't done).

So I can only pressume that you mean there is no prediction made on the low-pingers view. Whereas there is prediction on the high-pingers view. If so, then I will clarify that it is the high-pingers view I am talking about.

i am talking about neither the high pinger nor the low pinger, all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.

[Nux]

all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.

So can you explain exactly what happens when the dretch that I see on my screen, when I have a high ping, is shot with my massdriver when it is not in that position on his screen? Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing). If this is not true, then many supporters of unlagged have unfounded reasons for liking it.

[Somethief]

All it does is lagging. TERMINATE

[Eeeew Spiders]

Assuming that my position on his screen is based off predictions, I disagree with allowing only a prediction of my position to be shot at and potentially kill me.

I have to agree with kevlarman there. You are not dead because of what the high pinger client sees, but what the server saw X ms ago, where X is the high pingers ping (or max_rollbacktime if that values is smaller than the high pingers ping). Everything is decided by the server, nothing by the client (imagine the cheat possibilities you would have if that was the case). What the server does do however is simply refuse to credit the moves you made (moves for making it harder to get hit) when he finds out that somebody shot at the place you were X ms ago.

Still it doesn't take away the validity of what you intended to say in the post before that. Any move you make to set off the aim of the high ping opponent are futile even if you did make that move well before you saw him taking an aim (not shot) at you.

Imagine that turrets would have lag. You are circling around the turret fast enuf but oh noes, you didn't know that in the turrets view it was cirlcing on the same level as you Or you attack a turret from behind, but oh noes, the turret was already turned around before the server knew it was turned around And if the turret could talk too, it would say noob dretch just walked into my barrel.

If I were to propose that being laggy were comparable to being drunk, then unlagged would be the magical booze-pixie who goes round making the world into whatever the drunk things it is. I'm sure the drunk wouldn't complain but I'm not so sure about all the people who are turned into sick fantasies of a dribbling dunkard.

Since I live in the big city, I have bad eyesight (no carrots :/ ).
But I made a patch which blurs the screen of the other clients too to even out my unfair disadvantage

I looked up what cg_nopredict does, but couldn't find much useful information. But from the little i did read is that with cg_nopredict 0 the client is rendering your actions without waiting for confirmation by the server about  the validity of that action. if the action gets disapproved off by the server, it corrects the rendering and your position. With cg_nopredict 1 it simply waits for the confirmation. So you see yourself move 100ms later when your ping is 100ms (ping is always the time for a package to travel back and forth between client to server). cg_nopredict however is completely independent from other players, their lag or their setting. It also completely does not interfere with the decisions the server is making. It only affects your own client. Also, cg_nopredict 1 would hinder a high ping player much more than a low ping player. But I see no relevance to movement in regards of this discussion. As a complete irrelevant side note: cg_nopredict 0 does not apply to buying a weapon or building a structure.

@temple: saw your long post after i posted this one. Looks interesting and actually matches what we have been saying, only with a different conclusion. Will read the link you provided.

[kevlarman]

all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.

So can you explain exactly what happens when the dretch that I see on my screen, when I have a high ping, is shot with my massdriver when it is not in that position on his screen? Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing). If this is not true, then many supporters of unlagged have unfounded reasons for liking it.

actually you have an unfounded reason for not liking it. there is a difference between high ping and a bad connection, with high ping (which should never happen if servers set a reasonable sv_maxping like 150) you will never see players stop moving on your client when they are still moving on the server, and you will never warp on the server if the server allows it, you will only have a significant delay between you taking an action and the server interpreting it. your examples only happen with packet loss or lack of bandwidth (or very low fps), and can happen just as easily with a low ping connection. like i said earlier, unlagged does nothing to help players with packet loss hit their target, and will in fact make them much easier to hit for other players by taking the guesswork out of where they should aim (position where he is now, position where he will warp to, somewhere in between, even ahead of the position where he will warp to are all possible in stock trem), but the antiwarp patch has not had its bugs worked out yet and hasn't been included yet as a result.

[temple]

all clients will predict their own position, and wait for the server to tell them about other positions.

So can you explain exactly what happens when the dretch that I see on my screen, when I have a high ping, is shot with my massdriver when it is not in that position on his screen? Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing). If this is not true, then many supporters of unlagged have unfounded reasons for liking it.

This what the dretch and human sees if they the same ping

.....t1.....t2.....t3.....t4.....t5.....time(t)
.....s1.....s2....s3....s4.....s5.....space(s)
......D......D......D......D.....D.....dretch(D)
 
..................H(human)

This is what the lagged humans sees.


.....t2.....t3.....t4.....t5.....t6.....time(t)...<-Notice the change in time
.....s1.....s2....s3....s4.....s5.....space(s)
......D......D......D......D.....D.....dretch(D)
 
..................H(human)


If both players have the same ping...
The human can shot spot 4 (s4) at time 4 (t4) and kill the dretch.

If the human is lagged...
The human can shot spot 4 (s4) at time 5 (t5) and miss the dretch (because at t5, the dretch is already at s5).  On his screen, his aim was true.  But his ping won't let him get the true position of the dretch.

What Unlagged does is say...
If the lagged human sees the dretch at spot 4 at time 5, then the human gets the kill because THAT IS WHAT WHERE THE DRETCH WAS ACCORDING TO HIS TIME. Yes, the dretch was at spot 5 at time 5.  But the human couldn't see that.  He saw everything later.  

If ping was equal, the human have hit you if you because he can aim.  The Unlagged server knows he can aim because the server knows what he is seeing and where he is shooting.   So, he gets the kill.  Without Unlagged, the human is still shooting accurately according to what he sees, but the server is holding him accountable to the ping of his opponents.

If the human can't shoot, he wouldn't have hit you regardless of ping.  

Now, the dretch is going to say, 'But I was at space 5 at time 5, how did he shoot me, its unfair wah wah wah.'  But the human would have killed you anyway if you had the same ping.  

So...
Don't run straight in front of humans that can shoot.  

The same works for aliens.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Temple's previous post about his experience playing with unlagged was very informative, thanks for taking the time.
I read the link that temple provided. It actually has a lot more useful information about q3 than just Unlagged (big thanks for the pointer, and i recomemnd for everyone to read it).

There is also a section about the problem we are discussing here and I find it an interesting quote:

Wait – so is there more I should be worried about?
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.) If you don't, you have nothing further to worry about.
Imagine yourself timing someone else's rail attacks. You jump to the side just before one comes by. The thing is, the hit test against you is done where your attacker saw you, which was before you jumped. You get hit anyway.
There are numerous scenarios like this, and all of them have the same solution: whatever you were going to do, do it earlier. How much earlier mostly depends on your attacker's ping. It actually doesn't take that long to get used to.
Personally, I believe there's hardly a problem when all the players in a game are pinging within 100ms of each other. That describes most casual and almost all competitive games.
The remaining casual games can handle a larger ping spread easily. It's the competitive games in which the ping spread is greater than 100ms that you start having fairness issues.

So first of all, the values mentioned here are very much those that jal offered (100ms). The second thing is that he does state the problems I and some others have mentioned. So for those that say I am completely wrong, there you have it in black and white
He even stated: whatever you were going to do, do it earlier. How much earlier mostly depends on your attacker's ping. So he even acknowledges that with Unlagged instead to compensate for his own lag a low pinger has to compensate for his opponents lag (shifting lag around).
And the main point is that he does recognize fairness issues with ping differences above 100ms.

On the other hand, below 100ms ping differences the author states that he feels this is worthwhile. My complaints were with higher ping differences.

So behind the bitching actually most of the knowledgeable posters here were right on both sides of the argument depending on what you define is high lag. So maybe we should leave it at that. I will remain on the position that with high ping (differences) Unlagged has fairness issues. And I will also remain on the position that with only low lag  (or equal lag) players in a game Unlagged is not much of an issue for me.
For low ping (differences) your argumentation is however on the spot, it probably doesn't make much difference. But when I talk about high lag, I mean around 150ms, maybe 100ms, but most certainly 200ms.

If ping was equal, the human have hit you if you because he can aim.

I am afraid this is wrong: If his and my ping where both low, my moving about making it harder to hit me would have been in time and could have been successful unless he had an aimbot or is unfailable. I think this is what the author means with: That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks.

Without Unlagged, the human is still shooting accurately according to what he sees, but the server is holding him accountable to the ping of his opponents.

Afraid wrong again, he is being hold accountable for his own bad ping. Since the ping of his opponent isn't that high, there is nothing much to hold anyone accountable for anyway.

Don't run straight in front of humans that can shoot.

You mean never run straight when still hidden behind a corner could be human that can shoot

Anyways.....

[temple]

I am afraid this is wrong: If his and my ping where both low, my moving about making it harder to hit me would have been in time and could have been successful unless he had an aimbot or is unfailable. I think this is what the author means with: That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks.

You aren't moving slower on his screen, you are appearing later.

If he can shoot, you would dead regardless.  If he is lagged, you will survive simply because his screen is reporting late data.

[Eeeew Spiders]

You aren't moving slower on his screen, you are appearing later.

?
who said anything about slower?

[Nux]

Thank you to Eeeew for reading that so that I didn't have to. =)

temple has made himself an example of the sort of supporter I was refering to before.

What Unlagged does is say...
If the lagged human sees the dretch at spot 4 at time 5, then the human gets the kill because THAT IS WHAT WHERE THE DRETCH WAS ACCORDING TO HIS TIME. Yes, the dretch was at spot 5 at time 5. But the human couldn't see that. He saw everything later.

This is what I have a problem with.

@kevlarman: Packet loss is an issue I overlooked. Thanks for differentiating between packet loss and lag for me. I'm interested in whether high-pingers would naturally lose packets anyway. Is this so?

I've been given conflicting views of what happens to laggy/lossy signals in tremulous and this has given me differing ideas of where the server places you at any given time. This, however, has only changed the setting of my examples and has never made any difference to my major concern. So long as laggers are able to shoot directly at a target and hit it regardless of my differing view, I will see this as unfair. No matter how unlagged tries to reposition the scenario so that things are less likely to annoy, I'm likely to disagree with a judgement that it makes at some point because it's not consistent with my view. The drunkards throw their punches at the wrong time, yet this guy keeps pushing me back into the path of his sweaty fist.

I'll try to conclude once more. Unlagged is for laggers. If you're a lagger who wants unlagged to be not optional but fixed-on- please spare a thought for those who don't suffer the lag you do.

[temple]

Thank you to Eeeew for reading that so that I didn't have to. =)

temple has made himself an example of the sort of supporter I was refering to before.

What?

-Has actually played with Unlagged?
-Intelligent?
-Understands what Unlagged is?
-Knows what he is talking about?
-Could wipe you across any server or configuration?

I'll try to conclude once more. Unlagged is for laggers. If you're a lagger who wants unlagged to be not optional but fixed-on- please spare a thought for those who don't suffer the lag you do.

Laggers...those monsters.

[Nux]

temple, I follow that sentence with my justification.

temple has made himself an example of the sort of supporter I was refering to before.

What Unlagged does is say...
If the lagged human sees the dretch at spot 4 at time 5, then the human gets the kill because THAT IS WHAT WHERE THE DRETCH WAS ACCORDING TO HIS TIME. Yes, the dretch was at spot 5 at time 5. But the human couldn't see that. He saw everything later.

This is what I have a problem with.

Many supporters of unlagged here have expressed that what they love about unlagged is when you shoot at something on your screen, you hit (regardless of what other peoples screens are showing).

kevlarman didn't agree that this was the case..

time still passes if the player has an unstable connection, if they see you not moving on their screen because of packet loss, then what they see no longer lines up with what they have to shoot for.

..but now it seems that it is the case thanks to a statement quoted by Eeeew:

Wait – so is there more I should be worried about?
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.) If you don't, you have nothing further to worry about.
Imagine yourself timing someone else's rail attacks. You jump to the side just before one comes by. The thing is, the hit test against you is done where your attacker saw you, which was before you jumped. You get hit anyway.
There are numerous scenarios like this, and all of them have the same solution: whatever you were going to do, do it earlier. How much earlier mostly depends on your attacker's ping. It actually doesn't take that long to get used to.
Personally, I believe there's hardly a problem when all the players in a game are pinging within 100ms of each other. That describes most casual and almost all competitive games.
The remaining casual games can handle a larger ping spread easily. It's the competitive games in which the ping spread is greater than 100ms that you start having fairness issues.

The guy who says this seems to have the aattitude that you should have anticipated anything unexpected that unlagged throws at you. This I disagree with.

[Eeeew Spiders]

What?
-Understands what Unlagged is?
-Knows what he is talking about?

Since my understanding of Unlagged is how it is described in the Link you posted, and with the same conclusion about its symptoms as the said link, I conclude that my understanding of Unlagged suffice for the discussion here thank you, unless that Link contains utter nonsense.

[Nux]

Something I neglected to call attention to earlier:

I disagree with allowing me to be hit- and perhaps killed -at positions that I have moved from on my screen.

 
too bad, even with unlagged off this happens.

If you mean the miniscule differences that occur in non-unlagged games then this is nowhere near the extent to which is occurs with unlagged. A laggy player would miss me because I dodged without unlagged.  Apparently, with unlagged he'd hit me because he didn't see my dodge.

@temple: You said yourself that unlagged will allow anyone to hit anyone else so long as they saw them in that position at that time. Can you imagine how this might be frustrating? You might say those people are just making excuses, but don't you see how they might be annoyed when they are so sure they should have survived but didn't because of another persons differing acccount of things? When one guy is lagging heavily and the other isn't, what sort of movements would the laggy guy see the not laggy guy making? Would this be a sensible portrayal of the non-laggy guys dodging skillz?

@kevlarman: You seem sure of what unlagged does, whereas I've only objected to that which people have said it does. You've said I've lied, yet I can't lie about something I don't know as more than a hypothetical situation. Many times, the assumptions in my arguments have been the arguments of the previous posters (an attempt at persuading through reductio ad absurdum). No matter the explanation given, there's always been a point of contention. I realise that unlagged isn't for the sort of low-ping, consistent gaming I'm used to. It's for those who lag. This tells me it should be optional. Others seem to think otherwise. Do you think it should be optional too?

[Mantra]

Alright, now I might not get all this technical stuff(In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't) But from what I've noticed in games, there seem to be a lot of problems here and there when I play on unlagged.

Sometimes, I would shoot exactly at a dretch, see my md shot pass through him and hit the wall exactly behind the guy, not forgetting he's going in a straight line, and the shot would actually miss.
At other times, I would shoot, and know I was 15 feet away from my target, and yet I'd hit, and possibly kill my opponent. Now this is my personal biggest dislike of unlag and really, I have no idea how and why it happens. My guess would be that unlag might actually leave an information trail as to where hitboxes are and were, and that the server doesn't read the information I might send correctly.

Now, there are other problems that I personally dislike.
First off, unlag makes aiming so much more easier that anything lower then a goon mince rifle meat. And unless the goon actually camps behind corners waiting for that head shot, then he's in deep doodoo. This forces alien to camp corners ten folds, and even then, they are often taken down by a single shotgun shot. This makes humans overpowered over aliens if the human team is any half decent.
Secondly, the sudden rise of aimbots. Unlag favors aimbots since it makes it easier to use and easier to code. Without any ping issues, an aimbot will alway strike true, whereas if the aimbot had to shoot a 150 pinger, it would most certainly miss.
Thirdly, It makes human camping games hell. No goon can pounce for a kill with 3-4 aware campers without seeing his face splatered on a near wall. Games on servers with unlag(Especially on atcs) have either become a huge alien slaughter or a huge human campfest.

Franctly, after reading a few post here and there in this thread(Sorry kev, I skipped a few of yours, they were giving me a headacke) I noticed a lot of you stating they play on dretch*storm or other gigantic player servers that run unlag.
Now, let me state something, I got kicked from D*S twice and got banned for over 2 weeks because people said I aimbot.
I'm banned from over 5 other servers running unlag for the same reason.
I regularly get kicked from servers running unlag for this same reason.
I spend my days playing with actual good players that have prooven their worth both on lagged and unlagged servers, big people that everyone knows. Here I mean: bodyorgan, kattana, orc, black, most of zub/zilla/oldkillaz, iabz, and I could pass over a dozen others that almost everyone knows, people who have near 8/10 aim on lagged and 9/10+ on unlagged. Though I'd say I'm not the best, and in fact, far from it, I do beleive I still hold more skills then 3/4 of the community. I've learned through the hard way that unlag makes any semi competent human team a nightmare for aliens. If the human team as any sort of teamwork, aliens can easily be dispatched.

All in all, I beleive unlag to have brought more calamity then miracles. Simply because it is useless with pings under 80-90 and that if you can't get a server with lower then 200 ping, then maybe you should either consider buying a better connection or simply not playing online games of this genre, especially today with over 200 servers located around the globe. It brought about the release of aimbots, shitloads of problems and made humans more overpowered then they were(Yes, unlike all you morons who think humans underpowered, I believe them to be more powerful exept for nakedvsgoon) and make it easier for noob laggers, who shouldn't even be there, to hit.

Unlag is unneeded. Proof coming from the fact that the games that use it can be counted on the fingers of a single hand.

Just my 2 cents.