Unlagged: Good or Absolute Scum

[jal]

- Try to keep the latency compensation values smooth, at both client and server. Some averaging of the last ones does help to achieve a consistant feeling.

do you mean for backward reconcilliation? the server doesn't deal with latencies directly, it uses ucmd->attacktime (i think that's the variable name anyway, been a while since i messed with it). for projectile nudge i hijacked the 2 second floating average of the lagometer.

- Don't hesitate to add an arbitrary nudge cvar on the server side to fine tune the antilag. Latency precission is impossible, and some manual tunning may end up being the only way. Also, perfect antilag may end up feeling like you must shoot after the enemy to hit (Q3 engine has a delay even on listen server), so the server may need to put back this delay to feel natural.

once again, because ucmd->attacktime is used, this shouldn't make a difference.

Well, It's the same concept, but I don't know how exactly the implementation in Q3 handles transmitting the compensation times. What I do is sending the timestamp of each snap to the client and run a virtual server time in the client (Q3 does this too, I remember seeing it in the source). This is one smoothing spot. Each snap might have a small jump at updating the virtual server time with the new timestamp caused by ping spikes, so it's good to smooth between the last few ones.
The user command then returns the (updated) virtual server time. The server finds how much time has past between the timestamp in the user command and the current time. This is the second smoothing point between the last few ones.
Minor ping spikes add small time jumps at those both spots. Allowing the jumps to happen is theorically more precise (why smooth it if you have the correct timestamps?), but I found that it's better to have the lacency compensation constant than precise. The feeling is much better. I can't give an objetive reason on why choosing one over the other, both options make the same sense, my opinion is merely based on trying them.

[kevlarman]

Aren't backwards reconciliation limit and limiting the ping two completely unrelated limits as long as maxping > maxreconciliation? When i understand correctly there is already a maxreconciliation, only that without the patch you mentioned its not changeable.

i'm arguing that if maxreconcilliation < maxping, then it is very difficult for ping > maxreconcilliation to hit anything, because not only are they forced to lead, but they have no way of determining how much they should lead (ping was a rough indicator before), so maxping should always be < maxreconcilliation.
edit: oops missquote.

[David]

Would it be possible to have it a client option?
So I can have my shots unlagged, and other can choose not to.

Then everyone is happy.

[jal]

That won't solve it. What they complaint is not about their shots being unlagged, but about getting yours unlagged

[temple]

Not sure if it has higher accuracy, good players have not much problems with adapting to higher pings. However it becomes harder to survive when you rely on predicting your opponents moves, which is vital for surving on close combat dodging. So the conclusion is exactly how you said it, the game has less close combat dodge dances and more rush and hunt tactics due to unlagged. I will not go into a discussion about which of the play style is more leet. Different people like the game for different reasons, and depending on your play style Unlagged has greater or less impact on your game. And for those that love dancing with goons it will be a great miss if Unlagged becomes the standard. However I am open for giving more time for trying to to tweak values as Jal suggested so that Unlagged has less of its downside.

Not stopping you from dancing with goons.  In fact, the shottie vs goon face off is pretty close either way with Unlagged.  There have been a lot more dead goons (I play Humans too) with Unlagged.

If you take away the ping differences, most of you aren't that good at dodging.

[Steely Ann]

"So yer an unlagged lover, boy?  I ain't gonna have 'at filthy shit in my house, no sir, s'you can just go on an' pack yer things."
...
"I said scoot yer fool ass up on ou' the door, boy, 'fore I go an' fetch ol' Bessie from o'er the fireplace.  G'wan, GIT!"

// Should've slept better last night. :-?

[Nux]

Why exactly should the higher pingers get to shoot at false target positions and yet hit?

I haven't yet had an answer, so- being the stubborn fellow I am -I'm repeating it in case doing so get's me one. =)

[benmachine]

I haven't yet had an answer, so- being the stubborn fellow I am -I'm repeating it in case doing so get's me one. =)

Why shouldn't they? They have no way of knowing where the "true" target positions are. If they hit you a bunch, it's because their accuracy is good, even if the place they are hitting accurately isn't actually where you are. Why not reward them?

Also Nux I hate you because your arguments are too good, and I may at some point actually have to change my opinion >:(
please suck more for the purposes of inflating my ego.

[kevlarman]

Why exactly should the higher pingers get to shoot at false target positions and yet hit?

I haven't yet had an answer, so- being the stubborn fellow I am -I'm repeating it in case doing so get's me one. =)

why should low ping players have a huge advantage over medium ping players? even if there were enough servers in all areas that everyone could play with 20 ping, and enough players to play on those servers, and none of those servers had game-ruining patches like /share and rampage or huge playercounts. then it's still unreasonable to ask players to not play with people they know on servers where they ping reasonably well (under 100). as much as people complain about unlagged, with reasonable pings lack of unlagged gives a huge advantage to the guy who lives next to the data center than unlagged gives to a guy who pings 80 to the server (which is almost none compared to the lpb)

[Eeeew Spiders]

That won't solve it. What they complaint is not about their shots being unlagged, but about getting yours unlagged

Actually that is not what my complaint is about, though i can't talk for the other objectors. The idea itself about making accurate shots count even in a high ping situation is applaudable by all. It's the sideeffects which give me a headache.

why should low ping players have a huge advantage over medium ping players?

My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger or for that matter the movement of an unlagged-off high pinger. Reasons for this have been given in several posts in this thread. To put 100 of lines of explanation in a nutshell: The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move. Without Unlagged I can react to his move, with Unlagged I cannot, or only to late. To put it even simpler, I can get shot by a player before i see that he turns around to face me when he was standing with his back to me. The game becomes random for me even though its I that has the low ping.
As for the dancing with goons, maybe you are right, maybe not, though you haven't explained your point and only stated it. In my view dancing with goons becomes harder because I may be pounced by a goon i never saw pouncing. With an Unlagged-OFF opponent  with high ping i have the same time to dodge that pounce than i have with a lowpinger since with Unlagged-OFF he has to hit me in the servers observation of time, which is close to mine when my ping is low.
So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.

Maybe discussions about this are obsolete as some have stated and we will never understand each others point. If that is the case we simply ask you to keep it an option and not make it a standard.

Atleast I think i observed that some Unlagged servers have lowered their maxping value, which again implies there is a problem with high lag and unlagged. Maybe this is also just a misinterpretation of mine. I think its a pitty cause this now makes it impossible for me to watch Zubs scrims, though i liked every game i saw them playing. Maybe its also just due to my bad connection today.

[temple]

That won't solve it. What they complaint is not about their shots being unlagged, but about getting yours unlagged

Actually that is not what my complaint is about, though i can't talk for the other objectors.

why should low ping players have a huge advantage over medium ping players?

My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger or for that matter the movement of an unlagged-off high pinger. Reasons for this have been given in several posts in this thread. To put 100 of lines of explanation in a nutshell: The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move. Without Unlagged I can react to his move, with Unlagged I cannot, or only to late. To put it even simpler, I can get shot by a player before i see that he turns around to face me when he was standing with his back to me. The game becomes random for me even though its I that has the low ping.
As for the dancing with goons, maybe you are right, maybe not, though you haven't explained your point and only stated it. In my view dancing with goons becomes harder because I may be pounced by a goon i never saw pouncing. With an Unlagged-OFF opponent  with high ping i have the same time to dodge that pounce than i have with a lowpinger since with Unlagged-OFF he has to hit me in the servers observation of time, which is close to mine of my ping is low.
So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.

Maybe discussions about this are obsolete as some have stated and we will never understand each others point. If that is the case we simply ask you to keep it an option and not make it a standard.

Atleast I think i observed that some Unlagged servers have lowered their maxping value, which again implies there is a problem with high lag and unlagged. Maybe this is also just a misinterpretation of mine. I think its a pitty cause this now makes it impossible for me to watch Zubs scrims, though i liked every game i saw them playing.

Adjusting the Unlagged values doesn't mean Unlagged has a problem.  That's like saying adjusting your aim means you have a problem.  

You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger.  If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?

[Eeeew Spiders]

You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger.  If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?

I hope I am not misunderstanding you. Are you saying to make the game more fair for high pingers the way to go is to change the game in such a way that a lowpinger suffers equally from the high pingers lag as the high pinger himself?

[temple]

You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger.  If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?

I hope I am not misunderstanding you. Are you saying to make the game more fair for high pingers the way to go is to change the game in such a way that a lowpinger suffers equally from the high pingers lag as the high pinger himself?

Unlagged doesn't affect movement, right?
So, you "couldn't" see them regardless, right?  What are you complaining about?  Ping or not having A-1 top notch servers and connections provided for everyone all the time?

[Eeeew Spiders]

Unlagged doesn't affect movement, right?

So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.

Unlagged increases the discrepancy between the shots that count for a high pinger and the movements a low pinger sees the high pinger do. So in that regards it does affect movement.

So, you "couldn't" see them regardless, right?

I would have seen him in my/servers time and initiate moves before I see him taking a shot/pounce at me. Or to be more precise, i still see him do that move that leads in killing me, but after it has been determined that I am dead. So being able to choose my moves based on what I "can" see does make a difference.

What are you complaining about?  Ping or not having A-1 top notch servers and connections provided for everyone all the time?

No, my previous post explains what i am complaining about.

My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger (on an Unlagged server [sig]).....even though its I that has the low ping.

its a pitty you don't give a straight answer, it would make things a lot easier for me to understand.  As i said in a previous post, I am not fighting to have right and you wrong, I am trying to understand your point and i am trying to explain my point. I am also not suggesting to throw away Unlagged as I said in yet another post in this thread. There are servers where it may make sense. We merely ask not to make it standard since on the servers we play we don't have a problem with what I think Unlagged tries to fix. All we hear is "deal with it". I have talked to some european clans about this, and none, not even one wants Unlagged. I have talked to some server operators, none of them wants to have it. Atleast not in the way it is implemented now.
So when some of you can only say "deal with it", but cannot either confirm nor rebut the concerns we have with the current implementation of  Unlagged, I'd say we have a communication problem.

You harp on not being on able to see a High pinger.  If his ping is so high, what do you think he is seeing?

So,  are you saying to make the game more fair for high pingers the way to go is to change the game in such a way that a lowpinger suffers equally from the high pingers lag as the high pinger himself?
If this would really be the case, than my assumptions about what Unlagged was supposed to be doing are completely wrong and I can save my time trying to explain a point that Unlagged is actually not trying to fix.

[jal]

My complaint was that I have less time to react on a movement from an unlagged high pinger than to the movement of a low pinger or for that matter the movement of an unlagged-off high pinger. Reasons for this have been given in several posts in this thread. To put 100 of lines of explanation in a nutshell: The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move. Without Unlagged I can react to his move, with Unlagged I cannot, or only to late.

Actually, this is not entirely true. You, as a low pinger, see him before he sees you, cause the world update reaches you much before him. The true part is that you start getting the impacts later, so if you don't react until you get the first impact, you probably have a bunch of other impacts already hit that will come to you after you hide. This causes the impression of unfair advantage for the high pinger. Still, I agree that this is a very disgusting feeling and has to be prevented by never allowing more that 150 ms compensation.
I said it before. Antilag is not for fixing 250 pingers, these are a lost cause. It is for giving the best playing experience to 40-100 pingers, which are the huge majority, and it really does a wonderful job for them.

[Azrael07]

The unlagged delay patch (http://wraths.dyndns.org/games/tremulous/patches/svn901/033.azrael.unlagged_max_delay_in_ms.patch) offer a limited unlagged : you can set max unlagged recovered delay. With unlagged base patch, it's 1000, so everyone, even with 500 ping can lost them lag with unlagged. It's with this effect we can see 4km goon chomp, or crazy MD kills under walls.

set g_unlagged to 200 ms, and nobody gain more than about 150 ping with unlagged, so a guy with 500 ping have same lag bonus than a guy with 150. This patch is activated on tHc Public server, and reduce massivly unlagged crazy effects.

You can too set g_unlagged to a very low value, like 30ms, to have sensations of unlagged off, with just a little lag help

[temple]

Unlagged doesn't affect movement, right?

So to make that point even shorter: Though their shots are being leveled out with Unlagged, their moves are not.

Unlagged increases the discrepancy between the shots that count for a high pinger and the movements a low pinger sees the high pinger do. So in that regards it does affect movement.

You contradict yourself so hard, It hurts me.

I've already explained Unlagged a million and one times.  The answer doesn't get any straighter.  If you are lagging, you are still lagging. If you have low ping, you still have the advantage in every way.  The only problem for you is that people's shots connect when they make them.

You are used to WYSIWYG.  But like I said before it, its like trying to dodge a bullet.  You can't see what you are dodging because a hit scan weapon is faster.  Even if you can see where someone is aiming, their shot is instant and can fly faster than you can dodge.  Using visual clues is only a rough indication of where to dodge.  

The idea of dodging is a lot more tactical (thought based) than 'Move now!'  The only reason why you are successful at dodging right now is because you are used to having a few milliseconds worth of a grace period.  Now you are dodging in a virtual 0 ping situation and you can't handle it.  Good dodgers are still good dodgers, its that the attackers are more consistent.

Actually, you are used to WYSIWYG as long as everyone else doesn't get WYSIWYG.  I'll tell you why I like Unlagged.  If I ht something on my screen, I hit it.  There is a lot more guessing, leading, and unreliable information with traditional servers for everyone.  Unlagged just removes the guessing for hitscan weapons and attacks.

[Eeeew Spiders]

The only problem for you is that people's shots connect when they make them.

The idea itself about making accurate shots count even in a high ping situation is applaudable by all. It's the sideeffects which give me a headache.

You can't see what you are dodging because a hit scan weapon is faster.

It's is not about dodging a hit scan bullet.

Actually, this is not entirely true. You, as a low pinger, see him before he sees you, cause the world update reaches you much before him.

Is this true, so when a high pinger walks around the corner, I see him before he sees me? Same with turns, when a high pinger turns 180° I see him turned before he sees himself turned (and therefor sees me)?
If this is the case, I have less of a problem with Unlagged. Thanks for clearing that up. Values between 40-100 is also something I could live with.

[temple]

Is this true, so when a high pinger walks around the corner, I see him before he sees me? Same with turns, when a high pinger turns 180° I see him turned before he sees himself turned (and therefor sees me)?

What happens without Unlagged?  Who will see who first?

[Nux]

To allow people to see my standpoint in a bite-sized package, I'll just summarise a few points I've made in HUGE pieces of text previously. I wouldn't want anyone but the most skilled readers to have to endure such large amounts of text >.<.

In a nutshell, I question how fair it is for a higher pinger to be able to shoot and hit a position that I have already dodged away from. My dodging skills don't amount to anything when the higher-pinger views me as stationary for some amount of time. Though you can limit this effect by reducing the amount of time allowed for reconciliation or even limiting the max-ping, this frustrates those who are trained fast-reacters and see small reconciliations as large events in their conception-time.

Also Nux I hate you because your arguments are too good, and I may at some point actually have to change my opinion
please suck more for the purposes of inflating my ego.

xD Thank you benmachine. Just remember, it doesn't matter how good my arguments are: Nux STILL Sux. =)

[Eeeew Spiders]

1

....The high pinger may have moved to get me in his sight and shot me before I as a low pinger see him starting to make that move....

...You, as a low pinger, see him before he sees you, cause the world update reaches you much before him.

2

Is this true, so when a high pinger walks around the corner, I see him before he sees me? Same with turns, when a high pinger turns 180° I see him turned before he sees himself turned (and therefor sees me)?

What happens without Unlagged?  Who will see who first?

What you see is independent of Unlagged ON/OFF. I was just repeating jal's statement (1)without much reflection. However if what jal says is true, my assumptions about Unlagged are false. So i was just looking for confirmation on the point jal said in post 1.

[kevlarman]

in all cases pretty much, the person who is moving around the corner will see the other first regardless of ping because of player prediction (by roughly half the sum of their pings i think). the player moving around the corner has the advantage with pings close to each other, regardless of unlagged. if there's a noticable difference in ping (20 vs 120), then the low ping player gets the first shot, and if it's a killing blow the only shot, because even if you get the perfect headshot on a 96 hp human, you only get to use unlagged if you were alive by the time the server got your message.
edit: before tremulous i played et, and even with similar antilag, i always felt at a huge disadvantage above 120 ping, i don't see why people all of a sudden think that very similar code gives high pingers any kind of advantage.

[Nux]

So suppose the low-pinger doesn't kill the dretch, but also dodges quickly out of the way. The high-pinging dretch hasn't recieved the information that he dodged yet and kills the low-pinger in a place he no longer is at, on his screen.

I'm not saying the laggy guy still doesn't have disadvantages, I'm just calling attention to the unfairness to low-pingers who do dodge yet die anyway. Sometimes they don't even get chance to dodge like in my 'goon chomping across the room' example. I got the information about my death without ever knowing the events that led up to it. Without unlagged, though I would still see him warping and this would make it hard for me to aim at him, at least I know that if I dodge away from where he's about to attack he will miss. With unlagged I have to hope that he registered my dodge, else my dodging is pointless.

[Eeeew Spiders]

you only get to use unlagged if you were alive by the time the server got your message.

Actually i find this statement very interesting.

Ok, so when i understand what you are saying Unlagged works in the following way:

Opponent has 200 ms ping (package takes 100ms).
He shoots me and assuming he hits me in his view.
Server gets the shot 100ms later and would rollback my position 100ms to determine if it was a hit.
In this time I have 100ms time to kill the opponent.
If the message of me killing him arrives at the server before his shot gets unrolled, I get the kill and not him though he shot before me?
I was assuming that Unlagged would determine that he shot first in real time and so he would get the kill and my hit message would get discarded.

Assuming that I have understood right, your little comment helped me a great deal in understanding unlagged better.

This would also imply that for fighting a high pinger on an Unlagged server the best strategie is to try to get the other killed before his decisive shot gets unrolled.
This also implies that in a fight where two are shooting at each other a high ping would still work in once disadvantage.
Still remains that if I however try not to kill him and try to move instead for making it hard for him to hit me, I would get killed as if i would have never moved.

[temple]

Actually i find this statement very interesting.

Ok, so when i understand what you are saying Unlagged works in the following way:

Opponent has 200 ms ping (package takes 100ms).
He shoots me and assuming he hits me in his view.
Server gets the shot 100ms later and would rollback my position 100ms to determine if it was a hit.
In this time I have 100ms time to kill the opponent.
If the message of me killing him arrives at the server before his shot gets unrolled, I get the kill and not him though he shot before me?
I was assuming that Unlagged would determine that he shot first in real time and so he would get the kill and my hit message would get discarded.

Assuming that I have understood right, your little comment helped me a great deal in understanding unlagged better.

This would also imply that for fighting a high pinger on an Unlagged server the best strategie is to try to get the other killed before his decisive shot gets unrolled.
This also implies that in a fight where two are shooting at each other a high ping would still work in once disadvantage.
Still remains that if I however try not to kill him and try to move instead for making it hard for him to hit me, I would get killed as if i would have never moved.

You really reading too much into all this.

The best strategy is 'Kill him before he kills you'.  I don't think Unlagged changes this, outside of pure theory about getting shot at then killing someone in 1ms before they get the update.  Which is laughable as a strategy.

[Survivor]

May I make one remark? You said unlagged does not affect movement, but movement is a very important part of an aliens attack. Could you clarify on the effects of it as you see it?

[Eeeew Spiders]

outside of pure theory about getting shot at then killing someone in 1ms before they get the update.  Which is laughable as a strategy.

I was laughing too when i saw the consequences
This beside the fact that the consequences from Unlagged were made more clear to me by that statement quoted.
And it's not 1ms, but the difference between both pings which can be quite a lot when the difference is high.

So to sum things up:
- Without Unlagged and a low ping the game is close to WISIWYG.
- With high ping but without Unlagged the game is far away from WISIWYG
- With high ping and with Unlagged dealing with a low ping player the game becomes a bit more WISIWYGy only what aiming is concerned.
- With low ping, Unlagged and dealing with a high ping player the game becomes less WISIWYGy

So basically we are discussing if the game should have less WISIWYGiness for all, as to narrow the gab between high pingers and low pingers.

Conclusion: this is a matter of taste and preferences
and this in return means that it should remain a decision of server operators if they use it or not. I disagree with those that say that players that favor Unlagged suck, and I disagree with those that say that those not liking Unlagged suck. But I am agreeing with myself that personally I like the game to be as WISIWYGy as possible and that this is reflected by my choice of servers I play on.

We all savvy?


ps: Playing amongst lowpingers my dodging is fine
pps: I thank those that showed knowledge and tried to share this in their best way possible.
ppps: This doesn't mean the discussion is over, I still find it highy interesting to learn things I didn't know about

And a last thing - a question added to survivors question:
For humans we know it are the hitscan weapons. But which of the alien techniques are being Unlagged, and which remain unaffected (xept barps) by Unlagged?

[Nux]

When I have a very low ping and so do you, WISIWYST (What I See Is What You See Too). When you have lag, WYSINWYG (What You See Is Not What You Get). When you have that lag, but unlagged is running, WYSIWIG (What You See Is What I Get).

[treminator]

Unlagged is probably the single reason I find myself playing tremulous less and less.  When I find myself taking damage on the safe side of a wall, something is wrong.  When I find myself missing others with twice the ping, something is seriously wrong.  Sorry. I've been playing trem for three years now, and unlagged is the worst modification added to it.

Unlagged = elementary school philosophy of punishing the whole class for Johnny Rottenping's misbehaviour or misfortune.

[temple]

Conclusion: this is a matter of taste and preferences

Yes, some people prefer an artificial advantage that gives others a disadvantage.  

Some prefer an level as possible playing field.