Should aliens always be able to evolve in there base?

[David]

Aliens cant evolve near humans.  For good reason.
However, when the humans launch a big attack, aliens find them selves having to flee the base to evolve, just to come back to defend.  Stick a flamer on each door and the dretches can't get out.
This doesn't seem right,  so I propose that aliens are always allowed to evolve when near the overmind.
Patch to do it here:  http://www.mercenariesguild.net/patches/?do=details&task_id=82

[Dance Commander]

I think that would tip the balence even more in the aliens favor, and if any human team is coordinated enough to get a flamer on each door, then they deserve the win.

[Lakitu7]

Not being able to do it always seemed more like a bug than a balance, to me. You can argue that it may further imbalances in 1.1, but with the 1.2 changes, I think it should be done definitely.

[Paradox]

I think that would tip the balence even more in the aliens favor, and if any human team is coordinated enough to get a flamer on each door, then they deserve the win.

Oh, like it isnt tipped twoards humans as it is. Long range weapons, high damage, powerful structures, etc.
Tremulous is perfectly balanced, and when aliens attack humans, humans can buy stuff still, there isnt a "You may not buy that because there is an alien nearby"

[Computer[SU]]

when aliens attack humans, humans can buy stuff still, there isnt a "You may not buy that because there is an alien nearby"

"Humans can upgrade while being attacked in base, therefore:  aliens should be able to upgrade while being attacked in base."

That isn't a valid argument.  For example:  Humans can jetpack, therefore:  aliens should be able to jetpack.

Any disadvantage for aliens is fine in my book, even if nonsensical.  Whether because of the particular style of the players involved or the tendency of noobs to prefer humans for the "traditional" FPS feel, the fact is that in pub servers and, from what I have seen, even clan matches aliens win at least a majority of matches.

[E-Mxp]

if any human team is coordinated enough to get a flamer on each door, then they deserve the win.

qft!

Indeed, Aliens tend to win more often than Humans. Humans must have some teamwork to defeat the aliens, and that is what most people forget when they join humans.

Hope for 1.2 to force the humans to do some more teamwork and strategy

[Paradox]

perhaps bring back teamtask?

[David]

Trem is being rebalanced in 1.2, so if this change is made it would be taken into account when balancing stuff.

[Odin]

when aliens attack humans, humans can buy stuff still, there isnt a "You may not buy that because there is an alien nearby"

"Humans can upgrade while being attacked in base, therefore:  aliens should be able to upgrade while being attacked in base."

That isn't a valid argument.  For example:  Humans can jetpack, therefore:  aliens should be able to jetpack.

Any disadvantage for aliens is fine in my book, even if nonsensical.  Whether because of the particular style of the players involved or the tendency of noobs to prefer humans for the "traditional" FPS feel, the fact is that in pub servers and, from what I have seen, even clan matches aliens win at least a majority of matches.

Wrong.
if you set up your binds correctly(like I have), you can literally switch to a totally different role in mid-battle. You can go from sniping with the mass driver straight to chainsuit to take out Tyrants. This is a massive disadvantage for the Aliens.

[Paradox]

Wrong.
if you set up your binds correctly(like I have), you can literally switch to a totally different role in mid-battle. You can go from sniping with the mass driver straight to chainsuit to take out Tyrants. This is a massive disadvantage for the Aliens.

Thats what i was getting to.

[Computer[SU]]

Wrong.
if you set up your binds correctly(like I have), you can literally switch to a totally different role in mid-battle. You can go from sniping with the mass driver straight to chainsuit to take out Tyrants. This is a massive disadvantage for the Aliens.

Lolz.  Read my post again.  Where exactly are you disagreeing with me?

I explicitly said that not being able to involve in the base is a disadvantage.  That doesn't necessarily mean it should be changed, though, considering overall balance issues.  Just because something is a disadvantage doesn't mean it shouldn't be part of the game - that's what I was getting at there.

People on these forums are just really, really intent on getting in an argument.  So intent that they call people wrong without disagreeing with them.  I give up, seriously.

[kozak6]

Not being able to do it always seemed more like a bug than a balance, to me. You can argue that it may further imbalances in 1.1, but with the 1.2 changes, I think it should be done definitely.

Yeah, I always thought it seemed like a bug as well, and a stupidly frustrating one at that.

It definitely should be changed.

[Odin]

That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.

That's what I was arguing with.

[benmachine]

That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.

That's what I was arguing with.

Your argument didn't make any sense. Computer was illustrating that humans have some advantages that aliens don't, and for good reason. You responded saying that humans have some advantages that aliens don't. Wtfs ensued.

Personally, I like the behaviour as it is. Just as aliens can knock out an armoury, humans can lock down a base to prevent retaliation. Attackers are rewarded for their bravery with swarms of feeder dretches. Seems fair to me. Aliens should not change form while you are attacking them.

[Seffylight]

I've nothing to add to the conversation at large, besides to say that I voted yes.

[Plague Bringer]

Okay, on the topic of humans having the advantage of being able to buy equipment at their ten buildpoint armory, and only at their ten buildpoint armoury, lets look at the oposite side of the argument, aliens can evolve anywhere (with exceptions) so long as they have a zero build point overmind. I'd say that's pretty balanced.

In simplified terms: So long as the aliens have a no cost structure, they can evolve anywhere humans aren't. Humans need a 10bp structre, and can only purchace things withing a very close range to it.

Regarding the original post I have four points.

1. Flamers run out of ammo very quick, and they'll deal enough damage to themselves to retreat quicker. A tempting granger throwing spit can lure them into a trapper, in which case a dretch can get behind him, or cause him to kill himself.

2. Also, if the alien base is locked down by flamers, you're either in a one exit base, or a base where there are very small exits, in both cases the alien team is at fault for choosing such a location. The only map I can think of with the default alien location having small entrances is Transit, but there's three(+/=) of them, that's enough to get a dretch out.

3. If the base is locked down by flamers and my second point is false, then the aliens are being destroyed, and they can't leave their large exits. Therefore they are locked down my the waiting Lucifer Cannon or Pulse Rifle wielders and inside their base, along with the Flamethrowing mercinaries. In which case, they deserve to loose, since their defences were cracked.

4. If my second and third points are proven false, and the flamers are only there to killwhore, with no backup, wait them out. You don't have to feed, and if you have a team that feels the need to feed to attempt to drive the flamers away, then again: you deserve to loose.

[temple]

Never heard a good 'why not' argument.

[Paradox]

• Also, if the alien base is locked down by flamers, you're either in a one exit base, or a base where there are very small exits, in both cases the alien team is at fault for choosing such a location. The only map I can think of with the default alien location having small entrances is Transit, but there's three(+/=) of them, that's enough to get a dretch out.

Tremor.

[Plague Bringer]

Tremor has one fairly wide, and quite tall door. Now, while the flame thrower will reach the ceiling, it is a trivial task for any alien to wallwalk out. Also, since Tremor's alien default is so large, you can go into a corner and evolve unless the humans are in your base, see point three.

[n00b pl0x]

oh shut up about the damn flamers

no1 uses those pos

[AKAnotu]

I'm gonna pull the gambler's fallacy and say that aliens should be able to evolve if they are touching the overmind

[benmachine]

I'm gonna pull the gambler's fallacy and say that aliens should be able to evolve if they are touching the overmind

There is no room to evolve here

The fact that I'm too lazy to look up what the gambler's fallacy is is probably going to kick me in the arse later.

edit, because I cba with a new post: re AKAnotu, gambler's fallacy
oh, clever

[AKAnotu]

gambler's fallacy is an argument that assumes that since it's in between two polar opposites, it's automatically right

[Odin]

That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.

That's what I was arguing with.

Your argument didn't make any sense. Computer was illustrating that humans have some advantages that aliens don't, and for good reason. You responded saying that humans have some advantages that aliens don't. Wtfs ensued.

Personally, I like the behaviour as it is. Just as aliens can knock out an armoury, humans can lock down a base to prevent retaliation. Attackers are rewarded for their bravery with swarms of feeder dretches. Seems fair to me. Aliens should not change form while you are attacking them.

Then why should I be allowed to snipe a dretch with the mass driver, then immediately switch to chainsuit to take out the incoming tyrant?

[player1]

@David: their

Aren't you in the country where English originated?

Oh, and the answer is: Yes when I'm Alien, No when I'm Human.

[Plague Bringer]

That isn't a valid argument. For example: Humans can jetpack, therefore: aliens should be able to jetpack.

That's what I was arguing with.

Your argument didn't make any sense. Computer was illustrating that humans have some advantages that aliens don't, and for good reason. You responded saying that humans have some advantages that aliens don't. Wtfs ensued.

Personally, I like the behaviour as it is. Just as aliens can knock out an armoury, humans can lock down a base to prevent retaliation. Attackers are rewarded for their bravery with swarms of feeder dretches. Seems fair to me. Aliens should not change form while you are attacking them.

Then why should I be allowed to snipe a dretch with the mass driver, then immediately switch to chainsuit to take out the incoming tyrant?

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the Alien's ability (or lack there of) to always evolve by the overmind. Regardless of that, benmachine pointed out that aliens can knock out the armory just as humans can lock down an alien base. Now, while the humans make it hard to get to the armory, the aliens make it equally as hard to get to their base, therefore balance is achieved. See my past argument if you're going to argue that when alien base is locked down the cannot evolve, which would be following the topic subject, which in turn would be very much appreciated.

[David]

It takes just as long to psaw the OM as it does to Chomp the armoury.

[Plague Bringer]

You're pointing out balance.

[Odin]

You're pointing out balance.

No, he's pointing out that someone could rush in with the psaw and nobody would have a chance to evolve. It would be dead by the time someone finally brought down the enemy.

The humans can switch weapons and defend the armory at the same time. They can also completely change roles in an instant. They can go from defending to tyrant chase in one keystroke. The aliens cannot as easily switch when humans attack. If you're a Granger trying to build, and the humans attack, you have almost no chance to evolve to something that can effectively defend the base.

Also, it is completely unrealistic that I shouldn't be able to evolve(if I had the ability to) in the presence of the enemy. Plants don't stop photosynthesis in the presence of grazing animals.

[Iltama]

Also, it is completely unrealistic that I shouldn't be able to evolve(if I had the ability to) in the presence of the enemy. Plants don't stop photosynthesis in the presence of grazing animals.

Hmm, yes, tremulous is realistic! Aliens are realistic! Biomass can reform and even gain mass in less that nanosecond without taking it from surroundings(evolving)! Sorry, but that argument fails automaticly : P

And about that human role changing....the teams are completely different, why should they have the same abilities? For example, should humans be then able to buy weapons everywhere too? Humans can only change their role when there is an armory near you, aliens have only one place where they can't do it, right infront of the enemy. Unbalanced? I don't know, but your reasoning fails.

(my opinion is that things are fine as they are now, I really can't back it up with arguments, you would have to use shit load of reference to make a point that would please even most of the people)