Willing to finish/polish your map for an update release?

[tuple]

D*S Arena is final, although no servers ever play it aside from D*S because of its name  :-?

Are you serious?  I'm not sure what you expected there.  The map is named after a particular server with that servers logo in the map.  Seriously, if I put cans of pepsi all over my map, should I be surprised that its not on the Coke servers?

Operators and Admins are trying to get players, not send them to another server.  

Sorry to go off topic here, but the statement really threw me for a loop.

[TRaK]

^ Maybe I miscommunicated there. All I meant to say was that because the map is server specific, it isn't really suited for an official release.

It was probably a mistake to name it that way in the first place. Oh well.

[techhead]

He just wants a Tremulous update to come out before he gets caught up playing Halo 3. (September 26, if you live under a rock)

[Vector_Matt]

before he gets caught up playing Halo 3. (September 26, if you live under a rock)

Nope, Halo 3 has no official release date. (Halo 3 for PC that is :wink: )  I hope they don't keep PC users waiting 5 years like they did with Halo 2.

So, that date of Sept. 24, is that official or not?

[gareth]

So, that date of Sept. 24, is that official or not?

official, in which way? - this release isnt being made by the devs, (unless they want to ) but DASPRiD has said it will be put on the official pages. Sept 24. is the date by which i intend to have put it all together, and at the moment it looks like thats going to happen.

And on distribution, a single download installer that is separate to 1.1 (ie not a patch) looks like the best way imo. - that and a page of screenshots/descriptions/download links for the new maps.

and on the name? 1.15 ? maybe slightly misleading because its not actually a new version as such, its more a bugfix / map pack release, but it may be more likely to be downloaded by newbs than if it had a name like "tremulous community mappack", also dunno what devs think about that name...

[Survivor]

Why not call it 'latest subrelease'? Just make sure to put it before the 1.1 installer.

[Vector_Matt]

DASPRiD has said it will be put on the official pages.

That's official enough for me.

and on the name? 1.15 ? maybe slightly misleading because its not actually a new version as such, its more a bugfix / map pack release, but it may be more likely to be downloaded by newbs than if it had a name like "tremulous community mappack", also dunno what devs think about that name...

Will it use the dm_70 network format? If so, it should be 1.5.0. If it still uses the dm_69 format, then 1.2.0 or 1.1.5 would be better, IMO.

[Samurai.mac]

Spet. 24? Wow, I need to get to work.

[Lava Croft]

I would like to ask gareth again to not include ATCS3 in this mappack. I want to touch up and finish ATCS3 so it can be ready for the Tremulous 1.2 release next thursday. While I know I cannot stop you from including the map, it would be greatly appriciated if you complied.

[Vector_Matt]

If it's not too much trouble, could you please make 64-bit versions of the installer?

[Ingar]

If it's not too much trouble, could you please make 64-bit versions of the installer?

I can compile a linux 64bit version.

[David]

I decided to post again just to flame you

If this is going to get anywhere:

Do you know what the fuck you are doing?
From what I have seen, you lack all the needed skills.  Maybe you just never showed them off, but please say.

Who?
Assuming you lack some / all skills, who is doing what, when, how.

What version?  What changes?
Need a detailed list of everything your going to change.  Don't forget the GPL. - A patch file is *not* enough.

Does it have dev blessing?
You said DASPRiD would talk to timbo, has he?  No official support = give up now.

What installers?
Kinda fits with points 1 & 2.  Don't use something retarded.

Who's distributing?
Big file, lots of downloads.  Going to need some serious bandwidth.

Beta release?
You fuck this, (quite possible) and you'll do more harm than good.

Auto-download by default?
So... let some random server owner (S11?) run random code on peoples computers?  Its off by default for a reason.

Also don't forget to make the client different to the server, so we can send CP's to people who haven't updated.

And DON'T add a version number unless you have dev approval.  If you do, ask them what number, if not, give up.

Just my 2 cents.  (Or 1 penny)

EDIT:
Also, what about bugs?  The devs wont be pleased if bugs from your version start getting spammed on bugzilla.  You going to set up your own support system?

[Vector_Matt]

If it's not too much trouble, could you please make 64-bit versions of the installer?

I can compile a linux 64bit version.

I would appreciate one, specificaly TJW's binary, or a backported SVN binary.

I can get Trem to run with the add/remove programs thing, but it will only run the 1.1.0 version. Attempts to get it to run TJW's version (for guid support) have failed.

EDIT: I did some more searching, and I'm going to install the linux32 (libraries?) and try the installer again. I'll update this post when I've tried it.

Auto-download by default?
So... let some random server owner (S11?) run random code on peoples computers?  Its off by default for a reason.

Auto download does NOT allow "random code" to be run on the client machine. It only allows maps, vms etc to be downloaded. The vm's can't make changes to your file system, or read form anything outside of your /tremulous/modname folders.

[David]

qvm's CAN access files.  (At least on the server.  I always assumed they were similar).
Some mods use random files to store configuration stuff in.

Just because there are no know security holes, doesn't mean there wont be some point in the future.
Also, Its very easy for me to make a dud mod that stops you playing on impure / your own servers.

And do you really want it like counter strike where you have 20 custom 'HEADSHOT' wavs to download per server?



Also, if you cant type 'make', why are you using linux?

[Vector_Matt]

...

The client won't download file it already has, so it won't accept a new vms1.1.0.pk3 which has been modified to make them unable to join servers.
The point of auto download on is so newbs can download maps/mods without going "WTF? I keep getting kicked out of the server."

Also, if you cant type 'make', why are you using linux?

To learn.
And I can type "make" it's hunting down the dependencies, and knowing where to type "make" and what options to use, that gets me.

e.g. I'm trying to run trem, but it keeps telling me that libSDL-1.2.so.0 can't be found. I have every libSDL package installed, and yet the error keeps coming up.

[Odin]

apt-get build-dep tremulous

Assuming you're on some kind of Debian-based distro.

[David]

...

The client won't download file it already has, so it won't accept a new vms1.1.0.pk3 which has been modified to make them unable to join servers.
The point of auto download on is so newbs can download maps/mods without going "WTF? I keep getting kicked out of the server."

No vms1.1.0.pk3 in ~/*/base, only in the global default install place.
And zzz.pk3 overrides it.

Also, if you cant type 'make', why are you using linux?

To learn.
And I can type "make" it's hunting down the dependencies, and knowing where to type "make" and what options to use, that gets me.

Type it in the root of the source tree.  Dependency's shouldn't be an issue.

[Vector_Matt]

Type it in the root of the source tree.  Dependency's shouldn't be an issue.

Well it compiled. and started to run, but then it gave me an error. I've posted here to try not to derail this topic.

[gareth]

I decided to post again just to flame you

Do you know what the fuck you are doing?
From what I have seen, you lack all the needed skills.  Maybe you just never showed them off, but please say.

skills such as what? how can i know if ive got them if i dont know what they are?

Who?
Assuming you lack some / all skills, who is doing what, when, how.

people are finishing maps for this.

What version?  What changes?
Need a detailed list of everything your going to change.  Don't forget the GPL. - A patch file is *not* enough.

its going to use the backport tjw client, with autodownload on by default, it will have some new maps. there are no more changes.

Who's distributing?
Big file, lots of downloads.  Going to need some serious bandwidth.

same place official downloads come from now...

Beta release?
You fuck this, (quite possible) and you'll do more harm than good.

there will not be much to test, given all maps will be tested separately, but it will be tested privately.

And DON'T add a version number unless you have dev approval.  If you do, ask them what number, if not, give up.

backport -> not a new version.

EDIT:
Also, what about bugs?  The devs wont be pleased if bugs from your version start getting spammed on bugzilla.  You going to set up your own support system?

backport -> not a new version.

i ignored some things because they are not decieded yet.

[gareth]

I would like to ask gareth again to not include ATCS3 in this mappack. I want to touch up and finish ATCS3 so it can be ready for the Tremulous 1.2 release next thursday. While I know I cannot stop you from including the map, it would be greatly appriciated if you complied.

bah, fine.  

[David]

I decided to post again just to flame you

Do you know what the fuck you are doing?
From what I have seen, you lack all the needed skills.  Maybe you just never showed them off, but please say.

skills such as what? how can i know if ive got them if i dont know what they are?

Right....
Compiling and testing on win32 / mac(i386 and ppc) / linux?
Making the installers?

Who?
Assuming you lack some / all skills, who is doing what, when, how.

people are finishing maps for this.

What about the above stuff?

What version?  What changes?
Need a detailed list of everything your going to change.  Don't forget the GPL. - A patch file is *not* enough.

its going to use the backport tjw client, with autodownload on by default, it will have some new maps. there are no more changes.

Changing cvar defaults = code change.
Also, cl_guidServerUniq on by default?

Who's distributing?
Big file, lots of downloads.  Going to need some serious bandwidth.

same place official downloads come from now...

You still haven't stated you have dev approval.

Beta release?
You fuck this, (quite possible) and you'll do more harm than good.

there will not be much to test, given all maps will be tested separately, but it will be tested privately.

You have any experience with installers?
You have all the necessary with all the different OS's / architectures?
Open = better.

And DON'T add a version number unless you have dev approval.  If you do, ask them what number, if not, give up.

backport -> not a new version.

Having two different 1.1's floating around would be nothing but hassle.

EDIT:
Also, what about bugs?  The devs wont be pleased if bugs from your version start getting spammed on bugzilla.  You going to set up your own support system?

backport -> not a new version.

I was expecting you to be taking all the bug fixes from SVN and adding them to your client...

Final point, you leaving the run a server option in there?
If so, that needs updating too.  I would suggest remove it, but the devs might dislike that...  Although I'm all for not having it in 1.2...

[Ingar]

The point would be to package the stuff that is already out there and I would like to support garath in his endeavour by finishing my maps and supplying my technical knowledge about patches, source code and the likes.

The fact is that no sensible player uses the stock 1.1.0 client any more and the multitude of patches/clients/servers floating around just enlarges the confusion. As it is now 1.2 seems further away than ever. I do not blame the devs, in fact, I understand the position they are in and I will patiently await the moment they tag SVN with RELEASE1_2 to celebrate the shiny new and improved Tremulous (with mint frosting).

In the mean while members of the community are willing to spend time and effort to alleviate the confusion and enhance the comfort for new players. Even two simple downloads like "mappack" and "client-update" would mean a great leap forward and is the construction I'd personally prefer.

Note that I am not talking about the dedicate server here. I think in that case, a technological barrier is a good thing. The bugfixes aside, server-side patches are a matter of taste anyway.

Having two different 1.1's floating around would be nothing but hassle.

That is the situation as we we have now, only I'd say we have at least two different 1.1's floating around. There's no need for fancy superpatches, there's need for a bit consistency. I'd rather have you tell me what client you use and help us answer the question what patch(es) would be good canditates for a "client-update". Personally I just run tjw's backport (64bit, custom build) but I am probably just as confused about the clients as anybody else. You do have an interesting point about changing some of the default settings. All other technical issues can be worked out.

Any official position of the dev's would be greatly appreciated.

[David]

That is the situation as we we have now, only I'd say we have at least two different 1.1's floating around.

So all the more reason to make the new stand out.
On PT it sends you a CP when you join if you have no GUID.
Today we have an unnamed join, who promptly came out with 'How can my client be out of date, I just downloaded it'

He did have the latest version.  The new one needs to be different enough that non-techy people can tell the deference.


I have about 20 clients atm.  I *think* I'm currently using a out-of-date SVN backport, but it could be TJW's latest.  I need to go delete them all sometime.

As for what should get in, I don't know, and from what I've seen nither does geroth, which is the main issue I have with his plan.  IMO its a more important discussion than what maps, as if a map gets left out, or a crap one gets in its not the end of the world.

[Lava Croft]

The mappack will be as good as the crappiest map included.

@gareth: Thanks, I will do my best to make the waiting worth it.

[gareth]

well i finally managed to talk to timbo and basically he says no, because he doesnt want to put something up for download with checking it all and he isnt going to do that right now... which is fair enough i guess.

oh well

could still put together a quality map pack tho i suppose, just wouldnt be available on the official download pages.

[kaziorvb]

'bout teh mapz:

imo following:
meep
derelict (<3 <3)
procyon
cleanser
atcs 3 (yes yes!)
gloom2
utcs

but finals plz!

and built-in guid support would be nice - just cuz its a lot easier

[David]

Don't give up.
Just because you went about it the wrong way doesn't mean its a bad idea.

What to do now:
Get a team of people.  (#mg is a good starting place)
Get lots of influential people on side. (ask khalsa how)
Get every small detail worked out.  (Be very open and public, but don't publicise to the plebs)
Find all the people timbo trusts and get them on side.
Make it.
Test test test.
Release it.
Then ask timbo, once its proven good.  Don't bother asking him yourself, get the people you amassed in steps 3 and 5 to do it...

[Ingar]

I understand and respect Timbo's position on this and we all knew this is a delicate subject.

gareth, I agree at least the map pack should go forward. Maybe in time it can still aquire some kind of official status.