Essential changes to 'TAB' screen

[b0rsuk]

At the moment, 'TAB' screen displays only amount of kills, strenghtening the impression that tremulous is essentially a deathmatch game. Additional info shown would be useful... for each player:

- number of deaths
 (self-eplanatory, but it would make it easier to kick people who attack battlesuits in melee.... with grangers, for entire match. It would help distinguish useful players from useless rambos/feeders. Some feeders are stupid and never change, but some will listen if you point out their mistakes.)
- number of enemy buildings destoyed by that player

Some kind of granger statistic would be useful, too, but it would be harder to measure.

[Catalyc]

Maybe there should be a final 'Score'  that includes Frags/Deaths + Effectiveness Points (for lack of a better word)

Effectiveness would be the ammount of damage done to enemy structures + the ammount of repairing/building done. I guess the damage/repair/build would be depending on the structure, with overmind/reactor being of more value.

[Silverius]

Hmm, deconstruct, rebuild, get high score.

[b0rsuk]

I prefer few separate numbers instead of some ultimate score. This information would help humans evaluate/appreciate other players.

Of course, points for simply building something would be too abusive. But Builder Score could include:
- points for repairing structures damaged by enemy
- points for enemies killed with booster poison (on the basis you can't do it if your grangers don't care)
- points for enemies killed with turrets/tubes/hives etc.
- points for successfuly rebuilding Overmind/Reactor if last reactor/OM was destroyed by enemy
- points for building spawns if there's 0 or 1 spawn AND last spawn was destroyed by enemy, not deconstructed
- points for rebuilding important human structures if there's none AND last one was destroyed by enemy: health pad, armory.
- points for building defence computer if there are some teslas AND last defence computer was destroyed by enemy
-points for enemies killed while frozen by trapper

Builder score would have no actual effect on gameplay, it would be just for show. Perhaps it should be global, shared for entire team. Otherwise it could lead to a pathology where grangers fight over best pipe spot.

[KorJax]

Have the builder score only count if that building servives the entire match, and you mostly get points only for important structures, like the Overmind and Eggs.  Other stuff should count too, but not as much. As such, loosing teams wouldnt get any builder points, as their structures were destroyed.  There should still be a "how many buildings built", but remeber, that isnt a measure of how well a builder you are.  The "builder" score should be.  And if you lose.... well, then you are not an affective builder as you would of been if you would of not lost  :wink:

[b0rsuk]

Hmm. Of course, 'builder score' would be just a little addition.
I'm not exactly sure what do you mean about getting points only for surviving structures. I suppose that could work, BUT remember that building (egg) spamming is one of best alien defences. Aliens can't rely on turrets to do the work for them. They  have to defend with players; preferably even keep humans away from base. Some matches are won with egg spamming.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

I'd rather see the scoreboards remove most of the information they currently have. Replace 'kills' with 'credits to date' for both teams and 'build points used to date' for each player. So you know who's actually good at earning progress for their team and who's not, and who's the base designer. Note that none of these values would ever get reduced, so you couldn't use them to tell if a team was relocating or not. Only who's the builder and who's the attacker. And 'stay alive' points would NOT get displayed either. Only 'earned' points from actual alien/human kills.

[Norfenstein]

That's probably a better idea than trying to assemble a pathwork system to gauge builder contributions; just record how much building each player did and let actual players decide whose building was best. Of course this would be of less use to people who want automated multi-game rankings (which I think are silly), but at least it wouldn't mislead.

And tracking credits/frags earned instead of kills would be more accurate as well, since they take into account shared damage.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

And tracking credits/frags earned instead of kills would be more accurate as well, since they take into account shared damage.

My primary reason for wanting that, I might add.

Hell, I'd love to have death messages (except for teamkills) not say who killed someone, but instead say who did the majority of the damage to the person. Sure, include what killed them, but instead of

Code: [Select]

WolfWings was blasted by UnnamedPlayer
perhaps see

Code: [Select]

WolfWings was sawn by Hatboot
if Hatboot got the most damage on my Tyrant with a painsaw but UnnamedPlayer happened to get the killing shot.

[b0rsuk]

That's probably a better idea than trying to assemble a pathwork system to gauge builder contributions; just record how much building each player did and let actual players decide whose building was best. Of course this would be of less use to people who want automated multi-game rankings (which I think are silly), but at least it wouldn't mislead.

And tracking credits/frags earned instead of kills would be more accurate as well, since they take into account shared damage.

I suggested it not because I like it so much, but because it's more likely to be implemented than complete removal of displayed kills. I would get a lot of flak for this; there would be dozens of people saying I'm lame and displaying kills contributes a lot to teamwork and promotes good behaviour. When you're playing, whatever you say to your team is multiplied by number of frags you have (regardless of you being granger or not, time on server, etc).
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The thing is, credits don't make you reach stage3. Stages have generally bigger impact on game than money (especially for humans; aliens can do fine with plain marauders and dragoons).
But I'd like credits earned to be displayed. Along with number of deaths AND amount of credits feeded in case you're an alien. (you feed $700 dying as a Tyrant, and $175 if you die as dretch)

[Paradox]

This game, like many others, should take a cue from Halo 2.
There should be several screens of data, one for kills and deaths lives, one for builds/unbuilds, one for PvP, and maby if it could ever be inacted, one for medals.

[testian]

In team-based games it's dangerous to show score "primitives" like kills/deaths, damage/heallthloss only

An AI should detect behaviour like: assistance (kill enemies attacking your teammate, shoot together at important targets)
defense, communication

(more later, i'm hungry)

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

In team-based games it's dangerous to show score "primitives" like kills/deaths, damage/heallthloss only

An AI should detect behaviour like: assistance (kill enemies attacking your teammate, shoot together at important targets)
defense, communication

(more later, i'm hungry)

Half agreed. Just show a couple of simple-to-calculate metrics like total credits earned or total build points spent though. Both of those take into account assistance (credits earned are spread evenly based on damage dealt as I understand it) and also show who's constantly rebuilding all those acid tubes and eggs the humans are blowing up. :-)

[Quaoar]

I think it's at least important to show deaths and also separate stats for building frags. The former allows you to gauge the overall combat effectiveness of a player; someone may get many kills, but if they got those kills playing rambo and dying twice as often, they weren't effective players despite the killcount. You just can't tell who is playing smart and who is playing hero without it.

The latter is a similar indicator. A player can ninja into an enemy base and, in the case of humans, kill the OM or 3 eggs or whatnot, which can turn the tide greatly, but there is no in-game indication that the enemy "HQ" (reactor/OM) is down, and it doesn't count as a kill, so no one can tell.

[Basilisco]

I'd put:

Kills / Deads / Damage / Credits / Time / Ping

Damage refers to total damage done to enemy that game. This could solve clarify a bit that maybe someone doesn't have a lot of kills, but helped a lot to kill certain player.

Some other info related o building could be cool too, but not really useful in-game.

I'd like to see tremulous saving a log of every game with all this extra info(i have no idea if this can be done already). Just so the player can analize it later, either for self-steem or self-put-to-shame.

[someloser]

Even more useful than basis proposal, would be:
(credits gained/evolvepoints given) credits time ping, for humans. And:
(evolvepoints gained/credits given) evolvepoints time ping, for aliens.
Sorted by the first stat.
could even be used for grangers/builders, by letting defensive structures count in the first stat.

[Neo]

A deaths column wouldn't be accurate as there are other ways to die that don't credit the enemy team, such as falling/damage areas/turrets(when not damaged enough by enemy team). Same goes for kills as they don't give you credits unless you're a human.

Most accurate would be to have credits as a reliable sense of how someone is performing, maybe also convert evo points to credits due to the whole evo point sharing thing.

[Teiman]

Its a good idea to enhance this?
Actually the community is nice, even if some player is poor and feed too much. Adding a feedback about player perfomance will make bad players looks bad, and will result on in-team fighting against bad players. So will be a much less friendly game.

[Henners]

Indeed, I disagree on including deaths. Its too vague and would lead to infighting in teams.

I would however prefer kills to be replaced with credits/evo points earned - it would be a much fairer system for scoring, and would show what is really going on, as well as removing the infighting caused by "kill stealing".

On a side note I'm actually having second thoughts on my idea of changing aliens onto a continuous credit based system rather than evo points. It would lead to people suicidally charging to get partial credit until they build up enough to evolve, negatively affecting their team as they feed so much in the process....

[Quaoar]

I actually find it most pressing to attempt to represent the efforts of someone raiding an enemy base. If people just camp and camp and camp (referring to humans of course), they can get many more kills than the guy quietly climbing to the alien base and taking out a few eggs and even the OM. At least a building frag count would be nice, if not a full breakdown, though the latter would make it necessary to increase time until the next round loads so that people could survey the results.

[korc]

If people just camp and camp and camp (referring to humans of course), they can get many more kills than the guy quietly climbing to the alien base and taking out a few eggs and even the OM.

It would help to have a higher credit rating for people who earn outside turret/acids range.
Maybe people who shoot at dretches which are being shot also by turrets should not get credits at all  (or maybe 10%).
This would help people to get credits for actual effectiveness.

[Henners]

It would help to have a higher credit rating for people who earn outside turret/acids range.
Maybe people who shoot at dretches which are being shot also by turrets should not get credits at all  (or maybe 10%).
This would help people to get credits for actual effectiveness.

You'd get a massacre at stage 1. If the dretches know what they are doing it is near suicide to stray too far from the human base and relative safety of the turrets. Not to mention giving dretches another reason to throw themselves at turrets rather than be killed by human players.

[Rekov]

Maybe there should be a final 'Score'  that includes Frags/Deaths + Effectiveness Points (for lack of a better word)

Effectiveness would be the ammount of damage done to enemy structures + the ammount of repairing/building done. I guess the damage/repair/build would be depending on the structure, with overmind/reactor being of more value.

I agree with this. I do not think a player should have to worry about how good they are in order to enjoy themselves on tremulous. Killing and dieing is not the only part of this game, and judging a persons worth by that is not needed.

[rasz_pl]

 (self-eplanatory, but it would make it easier to kick people who attack battlesuits in melee.... with grangers

replace granger with a dretch, and

someone may get many kills, but if they got those kills playing rambo and dying twice as often, they weren't effective players despite the killcount.

deatch count is VERY important till humans get S3, then its meaningless. I can dretch lone average rifle/md/chain/lucy welding BS in one/two lifes = I die 4x at most and get tyrrant (or points towards alien S3) which are more important that $700 for some human

[someloser]

explanation of my proposed system, copy pasted from the thread Questions and arguments.

(evolvepoints gained/credits given ratio) deaths time ping
ofc, turn that equation the other way around for humans

that would be great, since killing buildings also gives points.

showing deaths and gained/given ratio would show feeders for what they are, and wouldnt confuse action players for feeders.
not showing kills would probably remove the "OMG u stole my killz0r!!1"

also, you could let defensive structures' kills count on the scoreboard for the builder that made them, which would make the scoreboard an acceptable measure of good builders.

edit: oh, that wouldnt work well for basilisks or builders in love with trapper, but its still better than the current system..

and another thing, the current scoreboard is horrid! having to scroll to see the entire list, wth is that? please make it fullscreen.

[Grenades]

Can we have something like

Total credits/EvoPoints/points - Efficiency? Time playing - Ping

oh, that wouldnt work well for basilisks or builders in love with trapper, but its still better than the current system..

I'd like builders/basilisks to be given points depending on the amount of time the enemy is slowed down or held?

Efficiency: Maybe this can be a number that is total credits/EvoPoints/points divided by time playing? Shows the average credits/EvoPoints/points earned per minute/etc? I dunno I'm a lousy thinker

[sleekslacker]

I would say no to 'credits'. 1) We don't want too much things on the tab screen. It complicates the screen and is harder to read. 2) What use can it be to you ? You can't use the credit. The only benefit it can bring to you is so that you can say 'OMG you have 2000 credit and all you buy is light armor and a lasgun !!11!!1'. No offence  

[rasz_pl]

TOTAL match credits sleekslacker, not a current ammount

[someloser]

current would be much more useful for coordinating attacks etc

[Orc]

rather than track credits/frags personally gained, why not track credits/frags taken from the enemy? like if a player does 30% of the fatal damage on a bsuit+luci thats worth 1000 credits they should get 300 points, and perhaps figure up some kind of equivalence between frags and credits such as 1 frag=200 creds so tyrant would be worth the same as luci+suit

as far as the team infighting over a death counter just make it show only deaths to the enemy players and if someone is afraid of their team knowing just how much they are feeding maybe they should review their gameplay strategy