Tremulous vs NaturalSelection

[Blitzarm]

Hello there dear tremulous players .

Im new around here and dont know any of you yet .
Well , by chance i saw this game , downloaded it and liked it , still playing .
And i come from a world where many people including me used to play naturalselection for days and nights until version 3.0 came out .

U see , i used to know that natural selection was the only game of this type , kind of strategy game mixed with fps and aliens vs humans . But now i see that i was wrong . After reading that tremulous was available before natural selection , i accepted it without any trouble .

Im not going back to natural selection as it is completely destroyed because of nonplayer devs and amazingly stupid changes .

Here i see that the strategy/fps aliens/vs/humans spirit still continues in tremulous and thats great !! infact amazing !

This is why i decided to share my thoughs with tremulous comunity and also play it whenever i can .

*-*  
First i should say that natural selection was better* than tremulous, im sorry . But dont get angry yet , since tremulous is very close to ns as i will explain and with little changes tremulous could be the game we all were waiting for . This is very possible . Since it is not the graphics that makes the game perfect* .  

i will  give some examples here .
ns had a flying creature with ranged attack which could suffice the need of freedom lovers in aliens comunity . trem does not have it . Its not always about balance you see , player wants to find a role which is close to his character .

Characters are //
TANK :   "Im have a very strong body, you cant hurt me with your cheap shots !! --> tyrant - Powerarmor

Freebie: "Im a rogue , i like to move around very quick , and get to places others cannot , hide whenever the need arises and strike from shadows with my excellent aim.   --> there is none in trem

Soldier:  "Ahh man, blast all the enemies, all i care is to hunt them down , i dont care much about details.."  --> Dragoon - Powerarmor - Human

Lagger : "Well , since i dont have the best connection i might as well help the team by building the perfect base !! Here comes my perfect building skillz !!  --> builder class -> granger   (but but building complexty is not enough )

Tremulous needs a Freebie type equipment to humans and creature to aliens.

These were some few examples for unit selections . And now comes the general game strategies.

----

Very clearly tremulous lacks forward base equipment . As it is very crucial to achieve a consicious victory against a truly good enemy team .
It is very hard to establish forward bases in trem if not impossible .
Because buildings takes a good amount time to build and takes 1/3 of its building time to be destroyed.
Tremulous should have an advanced armory and advanced medipad which could be build anywhere on the map without reactors support. And increasing aliens regeneration efficiency should do the balance trick .


---
I enjoyed in ns that there was versatility in game where you could play with a creature and not only bite with it but also you could use many tactical abilities from protetive cloud to paralyzing web lines which could be shooted from builder class creature , making it not only a builder but also be able to help a fighting team .

---

There was also a resource system in ns where in map special spots provided resource points able to be used both from aliens and humans which forced both teams to expand in order to achieve victory . But i see that no such thing exists in tremulous as it is enough to defend some few buildings and with good players you can stay alive for infinite amount of time . Thats totaly not a wise game playing style and creates a word to discuss "camping" and  following it comes the "Sudden Death" the total domination of humans since aliens dont need no ammo or medipads .

---

Beware the feeders !  
I see that in tremulous there is no place for noobies to enjoy it properly , how so ? Very simple . Because tremulous relies on kill points to gather resources and it is very easy to kill noobies , one team becomes godlike within minutes and its gameover..
This does not sound very smart to me ears..
Of course you can still continue to gather points from kills but put some limits to it in order to solve this noobies problem and totaly remove "Dont FEED!!" syndrome . How is that possible ?

Aliens should get more credits from players with high scores or better equipment .
And should not get repeative credits from killing same player ten times within twenty seconds . Put some limit to it like , one distinct player will only get credits from one distinct enemy in every two minute . Which could creatly help reduce the feeders syndrome .

But what about the aliens now ? Humans will be overpowered !
No , and never . Because every change comes with its partner balance fixes . Whenever you put something  to one team , you also put some counter to it on the other team . Its simple . But clearly there is a need to implement many new things to tremulous and i have many more experiences from other games and ideas as well .

Enough wantings from an already tired mind . These are hard to read as well as it is harder to implement from an unpaid developer who only does this for his own reasons and gains no great deal of money from it .
But you could help developers greatly for your dreams to come true !

People there with site making skills , discuss all the changes with steady minds and put all of the wish list on site with pictures and clear descriptions .

Im sure developers will feel your burning spirit in need of a better tremulous to sadisfy your needs . And for better comunity and for better aliens vs humans strategy/fps game days !



**Excuse my english mistakes.
**Excuse my long post.
**Excuse my over-excited post .

Nice to meet you all . :]

[kevlarman]

tremulous is not natural selection, there is no need to change it to be more like a game it isn't trying to be.

[khalsa]

If you want things to be like Natural Selection, go play Natural Selection.

Tremulous is not NS. Tremulous does not strive to be NS. NS can crawl down a large hole and die for all we care.

Enjoy Tremulous for what it is - The Best Game Ever.


Khalsa

[tehOen]

nice flame war attempt
next time try harder

[Nux]

I for one would like to welcome you to the community and thank you for your well-structured post. I would also like to contradict many things you have said. No doubt the less friendly members of our community will do that for me but I'd like to take a shot at it anyway. Try not to take thier abuse to heart, but you're likely to see a great deal of rants in a short period time.

Freebie- The swift and small dretch is our quick striker. The basilisk is our sneaky predator. Marauder is the bouncy strike force. These aliens match your description, in my opinion, in everyway but the flying part. The devs are not in favor of a flying alien. Neither am I.

Forward base deployment is possible with skill / some mod. I personally don't think it should be too easy to make such bases, and they shouldn't be too strong on their own.

Tremulous aliens do have secondary abilities like the ones you suggested. Adv. Grangers spit (slows people down), Adv. Basilisks grab and gas (poisons and disorientates), Adv. Marauders wall jump and zap (branching bolts of electricity), Dragoons pounce and Adv. Dragoons snipe (barb shot like a grangers spit ball.. only far deadlier).

Camping and the bias to aliens in sudden death are indeed issues and game modes have been suggested and implemented in much the same way you describe. Promod is an example of this. You can check it out on Daspird's Promod Server.

Feeding is an issue, but only in public games where you can't tell how many n0000000bs you'll be landed with. In clanwars this isn't an issue as you can work together with the people you know and train with.

Aliens DO get more evolve points (evos, not credits) from players with better equipment. As do the humans get more credits (creds) for larger aliens. [btw, they're called Battlesuits not PowerArmour].

And should not get repeative credits from killing same player ten times within twenty seconds . Put some limit to it like , one distinct player will only get credits from one distinct enemy in every two minute . Which could creatly help reduce the feeders syndrome.

Sorry, but i don't like this idea. It gives an immunity that is too easily exploited and would have well earned kills go unrewarded.

[next_ghost]

U see , i used to know that natural selection was the only game of this type , kind of strategy game mixed with fps and aliens vs humans . But now i see that i was wrong . After reading that tremulous was available before natural selection , i accepted it without any trouble .

Gloom was here 3 years before NS and 1 year before Tremulous.

[n00b pl0x]

U see , i used to know that natural selection was the only game of this type , kind of strategy game mixed with fps and aliens vs humans . But now i see that i was wrong . After reading that tremulous was available before natural selection , i accepted it without any trouble .

Gloom was here 3 years before NS and 1 year before Tremulous.

are you drunk or are you trying to make yourself look stupid?

[temple]

Tremulous is an arcade styled co-op game.
NS is a tactical team based game.

I prefer Tremulous imo.

[DHRUVINATOR]

Welcome too tremulous. Didnt read your post but from what others are posting , i also dont want Trem to be changed to or like another game. A games unique for what it is.

[Caveman]

Gosh, we haven't had a post like this in what? 2 months?

[n00b pl0x]

o btw

has anyone yet read a single OP from one of these "im a ns fanboi converted to trem so ill tell you what trem is doing different from ns (a.k.a. wrong)" threads?

[E-Mxp]

Freebie: "Im a rogue , i like to move around very quick , and get to places others cannot , hide whenever the need arises and strike from shadows with my excellent aim.   --> there is none in trem

Dretch, Basilisk. IMO

Welkom to Tremulous, enjoy your stay!

[Blitzarm]

First of all , i thank you for your welcome, and for those who failed to understand the purpose of this post , im sorry .

I merely tried to contribute to the comunity while saying hello , i had no intentions to alter trem neither am i a fanboi of ns , since i didnt play it for more than 6 years.
Im a game developer/programmer and i thought that it would be nice to share my experiences and thoughs with trem comunity since i liked the game and the spirit of players , ongoing discussions.
I may be willing to create mods or new versions when i have the time.
Thank you for your feedback , may us all enjoy tremulous.

[gareth]

actually i agree with alot of what you said, or at least i am willing to think it over without dissovling into a fanboy rant. Tremulous would be nicer if it had more depth. i like the idea of a single specialised forward base unit, for example.

[RiffRaff]

Freebie: "Im a rogue , i like to move around very quick , and get to places others cannot , hide whenever the need arises and strike from shadows with my excellent aim.   --> there is none in trem
[...]
Tremulous needs a Freebie type equipment to humans and creature to aliens.

Basilisks and dretchs are really good in that role, but you might say they can't attack bases, then marauder is perfect. Here is a good example of how a mara can take on a human camping base.
----

Very clearly tremulous lacks forward base equipment . As it is very crucial to achieve a consicious victory against a truly good enemy team .
It is very hard to establish forward bases in trem if not impossible .
Because buildings takes a good amount time to build and takes 1/3 of its building time to be destroyed.
Tremulous should have an advanced armory and advanced medipad which could be build anywhere on the map without reactors support. And increasing aliens regeneration efficiency should do the balance trick .

there's no need to implement that kind of things, outposts can be done in trem, it often happens in cws, but rarely on FFA, cause players hardly teamplay and communicate, and don't risk building it. my team oppened  a server called steroide with 36 slots, build points and construction rules changed to promote outposts  and it works. yet high slot servers attracts unexperimented players, lots of outposts are made, and they work well. i can gather the problem is not contruction elements rather than communication lacks, but dev team seems to be working on it.

I enjoyed in ns that there was versatility in game where you could play with a creature and not only bite with it but also you could use many tactical abilities from protetive cloud to paralyzing web lines which could be shooted from builder class creature , making it not only a builder but also be able to help a fighting team .

battle granger are often really annoying for their teammates, cause their speed and lifepoints makes them feed, otherwise granger can be good to help fighters by building outposts.

---

There was also a resource system in ns where in map special spots provided resource points able to be used both from aliens and humans which forced both teams to expand in order to achieve victory . But i see that no such thing exists in tremulous as it is enough to defend some few buildings and with good players you can stay alive for infinite amount of time . That's totaly not a wise game playing style and creates a word to discuss "camping" and  following it comes the "Sudden Death" the total domination of humans since aliens don't need no ammo or medipads .

Zipper, who does come from NS, had the same idea and cocreated Promod. some like it, others like me think it sucks, but it has already been discussed.
---

And should not get repeative credits from killing same player ten times within twenty seconds . Put some limit to it like , one distinct player will only get credits from one distinct enemy in every two minute . Which could creatly help reduce the feeders syndrome

it would make people not caring about feeding, which is also a big part of the strategy...

[techhead]

Freebie falls into sub-categories.

Evasion: Marauder - Bouncing around like a madman.
Ninja: Basilisk -  Hide, grab, kill.
Guerrilla: Dretch - All or nothing, I die or you, and attacks out of nowhere.

[_Equilibrium_]

well, risujin WAS working on a flying alien for his balance mod, but he got kinda busy or something.

[Paradox]

Freebie alien sounds kind of like a marauder.

[[insert name here]]

What were the changes to NS in version 3.0 that you hate so much? Because it seems like it was really extensive for you to change to Trem entirely. Do those changes in NS really outweigh the changes that you would like to see in Trem.

[Blitzarm]

What were the changes to NS in version 3.0 that you hate so much? Because it seems like it was really extensive for you to change to Trem entirely. Do those changes in NS really outweigh the changes that you would like to see in Trem.

I did not change to trem .
I stopped playing ns long* ago .
And while surfing, couple weeks ago i saw this game and now im playing it.
After a while, i had some ideas to improve trem and the ideas did not totaly come from ns.
I said ns just because ns was a game much close to trem.

And of the changes which made ns unplayable were these.
They tried to improve the game while giving some abilities of the creatures to others, literaly exchanging it and that made the game completely a different one . They ruined the balance and everything changed.

I have lived it not only with ns but with many other games as well , so i understand your concers about "keep the game as the way it is" response.

I wanted to talk about improvement, not total coversions . And i see that mods are a used method here . But trust me , i only shared some few ideas with comunity , but its not only about "should we do it ? "
The topic gets bigger.

Still , i thank you for your interest in my topic and for your feedback & welcomes .

[temple]

I'm just going to tell you now...

Forward bases= bad.  Humans would be able to suppress aliens indefinitely with it.  The foot distance between the alien base and the human base balances the teams out (i.e. a human with a luci eventually runs out of ammo and has to resupply.  Painsaw rushes can destroy alien bases quickly, if they can get to the alien base).

Alien classes=fine.  Playing aliens is about the player's ability, not the class's abilities.   Strong players can do a lot of major things with the classes as is.  You have to give the devs credit for making the alien team so viable yet so simple.

Flying aliens=for what?  Really.

Resources vs kills= It promotes combat and not camping.  With resources, the human team could capture a resource spot and just hold off aliens due to have ranged weapons.  Humans already camp enough and aliens already have to suicide enough as is.

A Kill based system makes good players stand out among weak players.  Otherwise, you would have to rebalanced the teams, because everyone shouldn't be a tyrant or luci using battlesuit.

[[insert name here]]

I did not change to trem .
I stopped playing ns long* ago .
And while surfing, couple weeks ago i saw this game and now im playing it.
After a while, i had some ideas to improve trem and the ideas did not totaly come from ns.
I said ns just because ns was a game much close to trem.

And of the changes which made ns unplayable were these.
They tried to improve the game while giving some abilities of the creatures to others, literaly exchanging it and that made the game completely a different one . They ruined the balance and everything changed.

I have lived it not only with ns but with many other games as well , so i understand your concers about "keep the game as the way it is" response.

I wanted to talk about improvement, not total coversions . And i see that mods are a used method here . But trust me , i only shared some few ideas with comunity , but its not only about "should we do it ? "
The topic gets bigger.

Still , i thank you for your interest in my topic and for your feedback & welcomes .

Oh i see. I wonder if everyone would be overwhelmed with the changes in Trem 1.2 like how u were with NS 3.0  About the flying alien thingy theres one in the works http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5858

[Taiyo.uk]

That does not necessarily mean that 1.2 will include a flying alien class. Besides, implementation of a flying class is probably best left to a mod since the current map set has not been designed for flying aliens.

[n00b pl0x]

First of all , i thank you for your welcome, and for those who failed to understand the purpose of this post , im sorry .

I merely tried to contribute to the comunity while saying hello , i had no intentions to alter trem neither am i a fanboi of ns , since i didnt play it for more than 6 years.
Im a game developer/programmer and i thought that it would be nice to share my experiences and thoughs with trem comunity since i liked the game and the spirit of players , ongoing discussions.
I may be willing to create mods or new versions when i have the time.
Thank you for your feedback , may us all enjoy tremulous.

if youre willing to make a mod, please do. If you made a mod for tremulous instead of making your first post on the forums a list of things you think tremulous should have, you would have been welcomed a little differently. It also might sway the devs to try to make some of your ideas more mainstream in the future, if they are truely well-made and improve the game.