Author Topic: What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?  (Read 7165 times)

Groove

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« on: October 01, 2007, 11:51:11 pm »
Three entries. What happened? Is it that everyone is so engaged in their own projects that they didn't have time to make something? Is it that the rules sucked? Is it that the competition was at a bad time? Why were none of the big names a part of it? Why is this sort of thing so unusual around here?

And, more importantly, what can we do to make this a success? How can we get more participation from the community? What sort of events would you like to see?


Events I would Like to See
(brainstorming here)

Huge Collaboration
We all make pieces of a map. Then we piece them together to make one giant, awesome, convuluted mess of a level.

Mapping Challenges
You are given a specific task and the time of a week to complete it. The point is to get you to flex your mapping muscles and think about things in a different way.  Something to improve your skills and see how other people interpret an idea. Objectives could include writing shaders to build a futuristic reactor-like machine, making a map within a set restriction upon space (1024^3), making a map optimized for tremulous one on one, making a terrain map, making a map completely out of models, or anything else we think of.

I think that either of these things could undeniably only unleash what would be a total sweep of awesomeness throughout the tremulous community. Discuss.

Kaleo

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2007, 11:57:49 pm »
Those three entries were pretty good... They show mapping at three different levels. Professional, Intermediate, Crap.
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TRaK

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2007, 12:10:27 am »
If this contest had been during summer, a lot more people would have joined. As it is, with school, work, and other obligations I'm lucky if I get an hour a week to map, which is definitely not enough to release anything worthwhile.

Survivor

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Re: What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2007, 12:21:24 am »
Quote from: "Groove"
Three entries. What happened? Is it that everyone is so engaged in their own projects that they didn't have time to make something? Is it that the rules sucked? Is it that the competition was at a bad time? Why were none of the big names a part of it? Why is this sort of thing so unusual around here?

Everyone is 1 busy, 2 because it is at a bad time, 3 the big names prefer a wee tad more freedom. It is so unusual not because organizing is hard but because getting everything set up right is hard. Kaleo's on his second competition now. The first one was a massacre the second one at least produced some goods, he already started a thread asking an opinion if there should be more.
And that is the problem, it isn't about the number of competitions but about how they should be set up. Following one mistake by another doesn't produce what tremmappers and players really want. Although new maps are nice people are complaining about overused textures and would rather see something radically new like pulse, meep, procyon etc. This also expands mappers possibilities because they get more resources at their disposal.

Quote from: "Groove"

And, more importantly, what can we do to make this a success? How can we get more participation from the community? What sort of events would you like to see?
Events I would Like to See
(brainstorming here)
Huge Collaboration
We all make pieces of a map. Then we piece them together to make one giant, awesome, convuluted mess of a level.

Wouldn't work, simple as that. Getting such a thing setup across gtkradiant version differences, design interpretations and the sometimes hostile relationships between possible participants are the main problems that spring to mind immediatly.

Quote from: "Groove"

Mapping Challenges
You are given a specific task and the time of a week to complete it. The point is to get you to flex your mapping muscles and think about things in a different way.  Something to improve your skills and see how other people interpret an idea. Objectives could include writing shaders to build a futuristic reactor-like machine, making a map within a set restriction upon space (1024^3), making a map optimized for tremulous one on one, making a terrain map, making a map completely out of models, or anything else we think of.

Given a task; good. A week?; Don't make me laugh. Give them a month at the least. This at least means people who have a busy week can catch up in the weekends or pick up a bit later. And the anything else we think of is bad, there is a load of bad ideas. Like limiting texturesets. a mere variation towards texturecount would allow far greater creativity and still keep it interesting without imposing stupid bounds on mappers.

Quote from: "Groove"

I think that any of these things could only unleash an undeniable sweep of awesomeness throughout the community.

They could also kill any aspiring mappers.
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

Groove

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2007, 12:45:42 am »
Quote
Everyone is 1 busy, 2 because it is at a bad time, 3 the big names prefer a wee tad more freedom. It is so unusual not because organizing is hard but because getting everything set up right is hard. Kaleo's on his second competition now. The first one was a massacre the second one at least produced some goods, he already started a thread asking an opinion if there should be more.
And that is the problem, it isn't about the number of competitions but about how they should be set up. Following one mistake by another doesn't produce what tremmappers and players really want. Although new maps are nice people are complaining about overused textures and would rather see something radically new like pulse, meep, procyon etc. This also expands mappers possibilities because they get more resources at their disposal.

I agree.
Quote

Wouldn't work, simple as that. Getting such a thing setup across gtkradiant version differences, design interpretations and the sometimes hostile relationships between possible participants are the main problems that spring to mind immediatly.

It's worked before in other games. Of course there will be obstacles. But we won't know how it will work until we try.
Quote

Given a task; good. A week?; Don't make me laugh. Give them a month at the least. This at least means people who have a busy week can catch up in the weekends or pick up a bit later. And the anything else we think of is bad, there is a load of bad ideas. Like limiting texturesets. a mere variation towards texturecount would allow far greater creativity and still keep it interesting without imposing stupid bounds on mappers.

A week is fine. These maps would not be fully functional, production quality levels. As for  "anything else we think of". This would be limited to ideas that don't suck. Please offer up your ideas for bringing life to the community instead of nitpicking my posts for loopholes to criticize.
Quote

They could also kill any aspiring mappers.

What? If anything, this would encourage up-and-coming mappers.

I really don't get why you're quoting and responding to each of my sentences like a flame. It's like you're trying to pick a fight. :roll:

Plague Bringer

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 01:49:00 am »
Quote from: "Groove"
I really don't get why you're quoting and responding to each of my sentences like a flame. It's like you're trying to pick a fight. :roll:
Epic self-own.
U R A Q T

guest

  • Guest
What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 07:22:10 am »
1) it is not created by a mapper
2) restrictions were funny but annoying
3) one month is not sufficient for a (good) map
4) failed competition is failed

Survivor

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 10:03:52 am »
Quote from: "Groove"

It's worked before in other games. Of course there will be obstacles. But we won't know how it will work until we try.

It has worked in games with a far bigger and more experienced mapper base. The last big mapping competition on a q3-engine based game was q3 itself with Geocomp over on the now dead leveldesign.nl. The only current running cooperative mapping effort that is actually going somewhere for a q3-engine is once again q3 itself with 'Shared Map' at q3w.
And kaleo has tried, and repeating mistakes leads nowhere. Wanting maps fast is a recipy for lower quality, having key parts limited is a block on creativity and innovation.

Quote from: "Groove"

A week is fine. These maps would not be fully functional, production quality levels. As for  "anything else we think of". This would be limited to ideas that don't suck. Please offer up your ideas for bringing life to the community instead of nitpicking my posts for loopholes to criticize.

So you want mappers to produce map which are not functional? This is even worse, wasting time on small insignificant maps that could be spent on making a single better map.
I am once again busy with university, such is life, and as such I don't have a large amount of time to spend on non-essential stuff. I might make a draft but don't expect anything since I've also got some mapping tutorial stuff for the wiki lying around, am awaiting the complete 1.2 release so that I can update the gameplay and building guides, am trying to succesfully clone and raise derelict server from the dead and that's just the tremrelated stuff.

Quote from: "Groove"

What? If anything, this would encourage up-and-coming mappers.

It would kill them off. In your scheme they would have to build to an objective which they cannot effectively have learned yet. I'll use the examples given by you.
+ Shader-creation for a reactor-like machine.
-  It takes a damn long time before new people start understanding the included shaders enough to create nice custom shaders, let alone create new ones.
+ Space-restriction 1024^3
-  Even people who can map need a damn long time to come up with something worthwile gameplaywise but they would be able to do this in a small space. But new mappers wouldn't be able to.
+ Trem 1 vs 1 map.
-  Although this could teach people a bit about gameplay making it an objective is simply weird since trem isn't made for 1 vs 1. The map I made that closest resembles this was Duelist. I don't have it anymore, didn't consider it worthwile since a small map greatly favors humans when the bases are safe and a large map simply favors aliens.
+ Terrain map
-  Once again a large step for a new mapper.
+ A map entirely from models
-  So besides mapping you want new mappers to learn modelling as well?

It seems to me you are putting learning objectives into a competition. Well then you're focusing so much on new mappers that the experienced will either not be interested or own so much it isn't even funny anymore. I remember a challenge thread.


Quote from: "Groove"

I really don't get why you're quoting and responding to each of my sentences like a flame. It's like you're trying to pick a fight. :roll:

You don't like that I refer to what I am disagreeing with? Would you rather have a mishmash of arguments where you don't know which part I am referring to and as such can't respond appropriately yourself?
And what flaming? I have not once used any vulgarity and the only part which could be considered slightly inflamatory is the 'Don't make me laugh' response which to be honest is farfetched.
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

Lava Croft

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 10:53:06 am »
For me, the restrictions of the mapping competition were too much to even consider making a map for it.
It did motivate me to start working on another map, together with another mapper we all love. Stay tuned. Or better, don't.

ShadowNinjaDudeMan

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What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2007, 09:04:33 pm »
Well, I must say, the huge collaboration wo0uld be ace to test...

Get klike everyone who maps to make a section, then send them to someone, they piece it togeyther (or workload is shared) and voila...

It would be crap, yes, it would, but, in a warm, fuzzy, community gang-bang way.
My favorite player is Jesus, because everything is forgiven when he respawns.

NOM!NOM!NOM!

Kaleo

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Re: What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2007, 10:17:31 pm »
Quote from: "Groove"
Huge Collaboration
We all make pieces of a map. Then we piece them together to make one giant, awesome, convuluted mess of a level.

+999999999999999999999999999
Quote from: Stannum
Thou canst not kill that which doth not live,
but you can blow it into chunky kibbles!
I has a cookie, and u can has a cookie, but i no givs u mai cookie...

Lava Croft

  • Guest
What Went Wrong with the Mapping Competition?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 10:04:14 am »
I am getting nightmares of chem-c.bsp.