Author Topic: On Human Base Building  (Read 96290 times)

Survivor

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On Human Base Building
« on: May 09, 2006, 11:53:04 pm »
Human building in general:

Human structures have few advantages over alien structures. Actually the only advantage they have is that the human defences are more effective if placed correctly and closely together. Human bases should be compact yet have as much cover as possible.

The following rules apply to human builders.
1: Reactor moves should be quickly planned and not the work of a single builder without support.
Reason: Quick annihilation by the alien team.

2: Do not put turrets or teslas in the retreat path of your team members.
Reason: It sucks to get killed on the home stretch when it could have been prevented.

TURRETS BLOCKING RETREAT


WORSE, 2 TURRETS BLOCKING RETREAT AND 2 TURRETS


3: Humans do not benefit from forward bases.
Reason: their bases do not automatically regenerate nor can be hidden from aliens.
4: Defences should not be built in groups of 1 or 2.
Reason: A basilisk is able to take out a single turret easily, good players can take on two.

5: Bases should preferably be built in rooms or hallways with low ceilings.
Reason: Aliens become severely limited when they do not have any movement space.

EXAMPLE BASE (note that there are many spots and many configurations possible this is only one.)



6: All buildings are vulnerable to the advanced dragoon's barbs.
7: Defences are nothing without human support when playing against a good alien team.


Name:    Reactor   Building Points: 0
HP: 930      
Range:   Very Short   Aim: Spherical
Use:   The Reactor is the single most important building on the human team allowing other constructions and energy based weapon recharges. Without only the telenodes will function. When a reactor goes down get it up quickly again. Without a reactor defenses are not powered, jetpacks fail to function and people cannot heal on the medistation nor buy equipment from the armoury. Without the reactor no new buildings can be constructed either. It takes long to construct so be damn sure you have the time to reconstruct it where you want.
Loc:   The Reactor has a somewhat powerful defence against the melee aliens. It’s weak point however is it’s top. It only dishes out 2 points of damage per second to aliens located on the top of it. This is one major concern along with the other one being accessibility to higher level aliens like advanced dragoons or tyrants. Keeping this in mind the Reactors top should either be inaccessible or covered by a turret. On it’s general location it should be the centre of everything that you build. All defences and supporting structures serve to protect it. Putting it to the side of the room is most common.

   Name: Telenode   Building Points: 10
   HP: 310      
Use:   Telenodes are the spawn locations for the human team. Their hitbox is also quite low, might want to keep this in mind when destroying them with larger aliens.
Loc:   They should be built in spots where tyrants, marauders and dragoons cannot easily get.

   Name: Armoury   Building Points: 10
   HP: 280
Use:   The armoury is the upgrade centre of the human team. They can buy armour, weapons and equipment from it and reload their ammunition based weapons here. It is weak to the advanced dragoon’s barbs due to its large hitbox. A single salvo will usually take it out.
Loc:   Due to the barbs it should be placed out of sight, yet it also needs to be quickly accessible from the telenodes.

   Name: Medistation   Building Points: 8
   HP: 190
Use:   This building is used to heal wounded humans and restore their portable medikits.
Loc:   Most people prefer to put it near the armoury so that people can change equipment while healing. Not a bad idea but remember there will sometimes be a line of waiting people who might be easy pickings for the daring marauder. It is not truly necessary but try to treat it like a telenode.

   Name: Repeater   Building Points: 0
   HP: 250      
Use:   The Repeater is used to expand the Reactor’s powergrid. It’s only permanent use is to put defences in a more profitable position just a tiny but further than the reactor allows or as a temporary forward recharge point for energy based weapons. It can be used to block incoming or retreating tyrants for a few seconds as well. Best use is in base relocation stage 2 and up. Put up a repeater and spare defenses, move nodes and armoury, lastly decon and recon reactor, all under cover of allies. If it does not power any structures for 90 seconds it will self destruct.
Loc:   Way forward when acting as a energy weapon recharge point or hidden from sight when acting as a powergrid enhancer for slightly more distanced defences. Do not put defences in a forward area.


   Name: Defence Computer   Building Points: 8
   HP: 190      
Use:   Needed for the construction of teslas in Stage 3 and said to divide targets for the turrets when it becomes first available it’s only real use is the teslas. If you’re not building teslas don’t build a defence computer. It is prone to barbs just like the armoury and when it goes down the teslas no longer function. This is a common basebreaking event.
Loc:   It should be well protected from barbs, marauders, and dragoons. Yes, quite a long list but teslas have their use so if you build it build it in the right spot and don’t give the aliens an easy opening.

   Name: MG Turret   Building Points: 8
   HP: 190
Range: Medium   Aim: Linear with spread
Use:   Good ranged base defence for the humans. It’s weakness however is it inability to turn quickly enough to attack certain aliens like marauders or smart basilisks. They work best in groups. Never block entire entry paths with turrets. A single turret in the way isn’t bad but several will be a severe hindrance. Always remind yourself that turrets block each others line of fire when building. Also try to have the front of  every turret covered by that of another defensive structure. All defences should at all times be backed up by humans.
Loc:   In groups of about 3 per entrance for small entrance while spreading them out a bit if you are forced to have your base in the open. They should never block each others line of fire and are at their best if they do not need to turn to be able to target an incoming alien. Have 1 cover the interior of the base like telenodes against the marauder.

GOOD SETUP FOR A 3 TURRET DEFENCE


   Name: Tesla Generator   Building Points: 10
   HP: 220      
   Range: Medium/Short   Aim: Spherical
Use:   The tesla is a defence in it’s own right. It can fire through walls and does not have the delayed targeting of the Machinegun Turret. It has a slightly shorter range and a less total damage if the turret would hit all shots (neglible chance on that). The ratio turrets:teslas depends on the opposing teams tactics and your owns strength. All defences should at all times be backed up by humans.
Loc:    It should not be placed in open spots but just around corners since it can shoot through them. Not much else to say about their location.

TESLA TURRET COMBINATION
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AzaToth

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2006, 12:20:33 am »
It would be worth to mention that if reactor goes down, jetpacks stop working.

Stof

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2006, 12:23:13 am »
Also, humans cannot easily reload energy weapons at the armory. They must either use the "buy ammo" button in range of a reactor/repetear, or they must use that building as they would use the armory.

BTW, game should allow humans to buy ammo for all weapons at the armory because they can do it by selling and then buying the current weapon. It is plain weird that you cannot use the "Buy ammunition" option for that.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Neo

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2006, 01:10:12 am »
Especially when your reactor is placed 20m up and you can't reach it to recharge.

Remember to place reactors in safe locations, but in places where your team can actually use them to recharge.

Paradox

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 04:23:46 am »
Good mention of the teslas. One thing that I hate as human, and love as alien, is when some noobs replace all the turrets with teslas. I always put teslas in a spot where targets could come from any direction, and ususally out of the way. There will always be a builder noob who decones all of the turrets for teslas. I can tell you how many games i have ended as an adv goon by sniping the DC.

Snipe, evolve to tyrant, kill all.

∧OMG ENTROPY∧

stahlsau

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 09:10:04 am »
Good work, same as with the aliens. Btw, will you use this to expand the official manual at http://tremulous.net/manual/ ?

Survivor

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 11:14:14 am »
Quote from: "Stof"
Also, humans cannot easily reload energy weapons at the armory. They must either use the "buy ammo" button in range of a reactor/repetear, or they must use that building as they would use the armory.

BTW, game should allow humans to buy ammo for all weapons at the armory because they can do it by selling and then buying the current weapon. It is plain weird that you cannot use the "Buy ammunition" option for that.


I said ammunition based weapons. The sell-buy recharge shouldn't be there and I've not included it because of that.

All other suggestions have been incorporated, note that building high isn't included for the reason that it just isn't that special. Marauders and dragoons can still easily reach it and if you let tyrants into your base your team is weak by default. You can do it but for real, I haven't met one high placed base that a reasonable alien team couldn't take on. All you usually do is give the aliens room to move below those spawns where humans need to get off.
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Stof

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2006, 02:07:58 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"
Quote from: "Stof"
Also, humans cannot easily reload energy weapons at the armory. They must either use the "buy ammo" button in range of a reactor/repetear, or they must use that building as they would use the armory.

BTW, game should allow humans to buy ammo for all weapons at the armory because they can do it by selling and then buying the current weapon. It is plain weird that you cannot use the "Buy ammunition" option for that.


I said ammunition based weapons. The sell-buy recharge shouldn't be there and I've not included it because of that.

Fell free to find an implementation that isn't even more cumbersome that what is available now. Since it's impossible, I say we should fix that major annoyance and just allow energy based weapons to be recharged at the armory as they should.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Survivor

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 02:32:16 pm »
This topic isn't on the armoury energy refill bug stof. Energy weapons should be recharged at reactor or repeater, ammunition based weapons in the armoury.  Energy based weapons should not be refillable at the armoury. Get over it or start a new topic, this one is about basebuilding not bugs.
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Stof

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 02:38:04 pm »
I'll try to avoid any further thread hijacking in the future. I should know better that that sorry :P
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

hodge

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2006, 07:54:23 pm »
This and the alien building guide really should be printed in the game's offical manual it contains a lot of info that could help a noob became "un-noobified"(In case you didn't notice made that word up) By far the best section was the Turrets blocking retreat I also liked how you wrote that  The human base is nothing good shooters, that a poorly executed or planned reactor move will ensure the humans loss because in the worse case aliens can destroy absolutely everything or the can gain many essential level points in that single minute by simply surrending the human's spawn points and killing nearly helpless players and that (for the most part) humans do not benefit very little from an expanded base, although I would like to say that there are some exceptions to this rule of thumb.

next_ghost

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2006, 06:17:43 pm »
I think this is important for newbie builders:

1) IF YOU THINK SOME BUILDING (except turrets, teslas and defense computer) IS ON BAD PLACE AND MOVING IT A FEW METERS WOULD BE MUCH BETTER, DO NOT TOUCH THAT DAMN BUILDING!
Usually it's not just building placement that sucks, it's the entire base position. In that case, moving a single building a few meters away won't be any useful, you'll just make your fighting teammates confused and/or angry, especially by messing with the reactor.

2) WHEN MOVING THE BASE IN STAGE 2 OR 3, REMOVE AND REBUILD BUILDINGS IN THIS ORDER:
--- ARMED PLAYERS PROVIDE COVER IN THE NEW BASE!!!
A) REPEATER
B) NON-ESSENTIAL TURRETS
C) ARMORY AND MEDISTATION
D) DEFENSE COMPUTER
E) TELENODES
--- ARMED PLAYERS PROVIDE COVER IN THE OLD BASE!!!
F) ALL REMAINING TURRETS
G) REACTOR
NEVER EVER MOVE THE REACTOR FIRST!!!

When building in this order, you make sure that the new base will be defensible when you move important buildings and no important buildings will be left unprotected in the old base. Leaving the reactor behind is not a problem. It may seem that aliens have the ability to flip the switch to your base but it's not really true. They'll just do the inevitable and you'll have to defend without turret support for a while. It's not that hard if there are not 5 tyrants waiting outside your base.
If my answer to your problem doesn't seem helpful, it means I won't help you until you show some effort to fix your problem yourself!
1.2.0 release's been delayed for 5:48:00 already because of stupid questions.

stahlsau

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2006, 12:50:09 pm »
i have to say i REALLY HATE to read all-caps texts. Apart from that, you're probably right.

Teiman

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2006, 05:55:25 pm »
nice post ghost

werepants

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 10:24:36 pm »
anybody have any clever uses for the repeater?  i have always thought it might be useful as a sheild in front of a group of turrets, or as a way to sit in an entrance and provide a little extra warning time for a tyrant rush.  it seems like being free, there would be a lot of extra uses for the repeater.  of course, it does have its limitations.  AFAIK you can't build a repeater in a powered area.  so you can't have a ring of repeaters around the reactor...

Stof

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2006, 12:04:43 am »
Quote from: "werepants"
anybody have any clever uses for the repeater?  i have always thought it might be useful as a sheild in front of a group of turrets, or as a way to sit in an entrance and provide a little extra warning time for a tyrant rush.  it seems like being free, there would be a lot of extra uses for the repeater.  of course, it does have its limitations.  AFAIK you can't build a repeater in a powered area.  so you can't have a ring of repeaters around the reactor...

I've never seen those uses before but who knows :
- timed bomb
- door blocker
- ammo reload for energy weapons ( well, I admit I've seen it used sometimes :P )
- forward bases, like one repetear and one medistation. yeah I know, it's far too smart for pub servers :wink:
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

|Nex|TrEmMa

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2006, 07:36:56 am »
I think it's important to note that turrets are not "defensive" structures unless they are protecting your base.  A mile away does make them useful, and are in a ninja's favorite spot.  Can't say how many time si've seen humans lose because they defended the room, not the base.

Ardbug

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2006, 01:32:49 pm »
Good point Tremma, a solid human base is ugly as hell, all cramped up and usually annoying to manouver in, but it is supposed to be ugly and cumbersome, making a great looking base, with 3 turrets defending each corridor leading to the base itself, is perfect marauder bait, the 3 turrets are easy to jump, and then the telenodes are free for the popping, this is especially common on nexus and tremor, tremor in particular, where bad builders love to build 3 turrets way out in the long hallway.

Teslas should be bunched up, prefferably 5 in one big clump, a human base on ATCS with 4 teslas upstairs blocking the back of the base, is practically tyrant proof, but in larger bases, where you need to cover 2 different directions, then a combination of teslas and turrets are by far best, since 2 teslas wont do enough damage in time to goons and tyrants, and if you need to cover 2 directions, then there are also 2 directions for sniping goons to hit the DC, making the teslas even more fragile and risky to deploy.
img]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/marauderforlife4hl.png[/img]
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Teiman

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2006, 01:45:27 pm »
Quote from: "Stof"

- door blocker


Often tyrants enter with a door, cause havoc, then use other door to escape. Never is that satisfact than blocking the exit door with a repeater, so Tyrants triing to escape here die blocked.

I can't recomend this strategy because aliens get evo points killing human structures, so is a free evo. But can be a nice touch for psychological war against tyrants.

Ardbug

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2006, 02:16:36 pm »
I made a small slide show of the classic doomed tremor base, enjoy:

This is the backdoor entrance, those 3 turrets can peel maybe 50 health off a jumping marauder.


And here is the front door, notice how all the turrets are placed outside the door, far away from the soon to be action.


The back of the armory is a good place to attack from, nice and safe, a cunning marauder could even sit here and regen health in safety.


And a nice open shot of the telenodes, reactor, armory and med pad, all spaced out nicely for easy acces.


And finally, the only turret with any chance of actually defending anything .... you would have to be a pretty silly marauder to be hit by it though.



Thats the kind of base I love to puncture with a marauder, and hate to defend as a human  :roll:
img]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/marauderforlife4hl.png[/img]
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Neo

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2006, 03:47:21 pm »
Though i'm not sure tremor has any Marauder-safe areas due to all the high ceilings.

Stof

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2006, 05:17:18 pm »
When I build such base, I always keep a turret to defend the top of the reactor and the armory. Also, if I'm playing as a dedicated builder, I stay around the base well armed to take care of an unruly marauder if it happens. And of course, the turrets aren't placed behind the door :)

I'm considering moving the reactor in the middle of the room too but marauders could still go to hide in the small corridor.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

DPyro

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2006, 09:10:37 pm »
If you note, the repeater has more HP than the defensive buildings. I've used a repeater in front of a tesla during SD, absorbing adv dragoon's attacks, since it takes 3 barbs to destroy, not two, and you can camp in front as a battlesuit to take the first barb. Even tyrants seemed to have a hard time killing that tesla :o

When building bases, always imagine the worst case scenario: a concerted maud/bask/tryant/adv dragoon attack. How will you stop wall walkers, fast jumpers, heavy hitters, and snipers? Some answers:

Put the defense computer in between the armory and the reactor. The armory acts as a wall, defending against fast snipes. A con dude in a battlesuir can even absorb some barbs, sparing the armory. Remember that you need a reactor to power the armory and def comp, and you need a defcomp to run teslas. Have the armory next to the reactor, so the reactor doesnt get mauled first. If you lose the armory, you still have the reactor. If you lose the reactor, the armory is useless. Remember the dependencies and plan accordingly!

next_ghost

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2006, 09:23:57 am »
Quote from: "Ardbug"
This is the backdoor entrance, those 3 turrets can peel maybe 50 health off a jumping marauder.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Poised_photos/shot0001.jpg


50hp? 30hp at most only if those turrets face the incoming marauder and he has to slow down. If they're turned away, they won't even shoot.

Quote from: "DPyro"
Put the defense computer in between the armory and the reactor. The armory acts as a wall, defending against fast snipes. A con dude in a battlesuir can even absorb some barbs, sparing the armory. Remember that you need a reactor to power the armory and def comp, and you need a defcomp to run teslas. Have the armory next to the reactor, so the reactor doesnt get mauled first. If you lose the armory, you still have the reactor. If you lose the reactor, the armory is useless. Remember the dependencies and plan accordingly!


That's another marauder-friendly setup. Armoury is taller than DC so if marauder gets on top of DC, you're dead. Neither turrets nor humans can shoot him and he can easily get your DC, armoury and reactor. You'd have to put tesla right in front of armoury to keep marauders away.
If my answer to your problem doesn't seem helpful, it means I won't help you until you show some effort to fix your problem yourself!
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Jaradcel

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2006, 03:10:44 pm »
On Tremor, I HATE it when someone moves the entire base into the tiny corridor. Sure it's a good spot to keep everything defensively placed but God almighty does it mean your team had better be good, because you're not covering either door any more and that's just bad news for having aliens in for lunch, dinner, supper and anything else besides.
TOP DRETCHING THE ENGINEER!!!! =(
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Lava Croft

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2006, 03:22:14 pm »
Tell me, why do I only see crappy bases in this thread?

next_ghost

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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2006, 04:05:31 pm »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Tell me, why do I only see crappy bases in this thread?


Umm, because the sole purpose of this thread is to point out why and how crappy they are?
If my answer to your problem doesn't seem helpful, it means I won't help you until you show some effort to fix your problem yourself!
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Seafoideach

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2006, 08:53:42 am »
Please tell me how wrong I am here:

(Human bases)

In a good base position, you have a low ceiling and only one or two smallish entrances.

The entraces get three or four turrets each (maybe replace a couple with telsa later), positioned in a V or a \_/ sort of placement, depending on size (turrets placed on the corners). This allows easier retreat for allies but still means approaching aliens get shot at along the way.

The rest of the base gets some turrets/telsas too (incase the perimiter is breached/jumped), they get spread out a little to cover maximal area (not just a little cluster to stop your own people moving from the telenodes).

This is all I can think of right now, I'll do a drawing and upload it later.


EDIT: My noobish quick designing and noobish quick drawing: http://one.xthost.info/duine/images/tremroomturrs.jpg
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yetshi

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On Human Base Building
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2006, 10:37:01 am »


that north door is too tight, youll be hard pressed to get thru that in a hurry.

dont dreate a chokepoint if you can help it.

west door is still tight but not as bad.

center coverage is sparse at best.

im not sure of the exact figure or scale but im sure someone could post the exact range a turret has.

im reasonably sure its less than 5 meters

Survivor

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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2006, 11:00:53 am »
Don't repeat things said in the first posts it only makes the thread unreadable. Also there is no perfect base since no game is the same.

Same way the above post uses 10! turrets, that's 80 points. Absurd.

A base is a support for the team which needs to be supported by the team.

And lava, show me a base which you think is good. I want to see what your standards are. Always good to learn.
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