Author Topic: Medic/Support weapon  (Read 11652 times)

The MC Horton Crankfire

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Medic/Support weapon
« on: October 27, 2007, 06:50:36 pm »
I know this idea has been casually mentioned a few times before, but I'd like to finally bring together a focused discussion on a support weapon for humans.

I think the idea is important, and should get some development time, because nobody likes the human campfest--usually not even the humans. Now, we know that bases provide three basic things for the humans: stuff that makes them exist (nodes), stuff to make them safer (turrets, teslas, DC) and stuff to make/keep them more viable in combat (armory, medi). However, the safety category is dedicated more to keeping the other base objects safe rather than the humans themselves. So, ruling out an idea like a telenode-gun (I can only imagine what kind of a disaster that would be, lol), the best way to get the human team looking at some scenery outside of their base would be to get the armory and medi outside the base as well. We've tried this with forward bases before, but in my experience, I've rarely seen one that worked well for the humans.

So here's where we get to the meat of the thread, and the thing that so many Trem players have already thought of: there should be a main weapon that can heal players and possibly give them ammo. Here's a list of thoughts I have regarding this concept, and benefits that could be gained from it:

1. The support kit (as I'll call it for now), as I mentioned before, should be able to restore ammo as well as health. But unlike the armory, I think ammo should be restored by holding the right-click on a friend to increase it over time, like you do with health.

2. It would have to show the health and ammo count of your teammates so you know who needs what. Just one or the other would be easy to do, but it'd take a bit of cleverness to design a way to see both health bars and ammo bars above people's heads so that it isn't ridiculously cluttered in the middle of a big rush.

3. Usually, aliens just have attack priorities when it comes to hitting human base structures. But with a non-fighter human class thrown in the mix (besides the builder, they just stay in the base anyway), they have to decide whether it's more beneficial in the circumstances to kill the support unit or the attackers who are undoubtedly huddled around him.

4. The humans will have to protect their support when they leave the base, meaning their mindset will have to consist of at least a little bit more than "GO UNTIL I SEE SLIMY STUFF, THEN KILLS IT." Not much more, bu a little.

5. If he's being used during a rush, the support guy will probably die sooner or later. The point is mainly just for him to give the human team a little more mobility on the map.

6. I have no idea how much the kit should cost, so don't ask lol.

I could probably think of some more stuff, but my brain's a bit muddled right now. Feedback? Further thoughts?

tl;dr: A gun that heals teammates and restores their ammo. Discuss.
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waflz

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 06:59:26 pm »
i very much doubt that this'l be incorporated into the actual game, at least not anytime soon
i don't remember what mod it was but once i saw a pulse rifle that healed as an alternate fire

Caveman

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 08:04:14 pm »
Besides the Aliens missing out and unbalancing the game with this rewarmed shit, what is actually new?

Plague

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 08:28:49 pm »
Please Cavemen - we know you enjoy stroking your ego under the pretense of a flame, but fuck off.  The thread starter deserves atleast some recognition for formally presenting the idea in a proper thread with legible grammar.

As mentioned previously, I doubt that this will be included into the official development trunk, but it's an idea developing as an independent addition (as opposed to a more extensive mod like Tremx).  In terms of balance, there would have to be some compensations (ie. high cost for device) to off-set the addition to one team.  Technical complexities shouldn't be very challenging - use the construction kit attributes as a base, the model is usable (with a re-skinning), plus most of the code already exists in TremX.

Caveman

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2007, 08:46:24 pm »
Plague if you want to wallow in this BS go ahead, but you know as well as I do that all those moronic suggestions already had their own thread and were shot down.

waflz

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 08:51:04 pm »
Quote from: "Caveman"
Plague if you want to wallow in this BS go ahead, but you know as well as I do that all those moronic suggestions already had their own thread and were shot down.

it's pretty safe to say you're the only one wallowing in BS here

Samurai.mac

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2007, 09:09:37 pm »
Too true. I'd hoped that incident in my thread had been a one off, but once again I'm reminded of just the kind of worthless scum the human race is capable of producing. Although on the other hand, people like you do make me feel a lot better about myself!

The MC Horton Crankfire

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2007, 01:56:27 am »
Quote from: "Plague"
As mentioned previously, I doubt that this will be included into the official development trunk, but it's an idea developing as an independent addition (as opposed to a more extensive mod like Tremx).  In terms of balance, there would have to be some compensations (ie. high cost for device) to off-set the addition to one team.  Technical complexities shouldn't be very challenging - use the construction kit attributes as a base, the model is usable (with a re-skinning), plus most of the code already exists in TremX.

I had only given thought to a whole new model for the kit, but you're right, a re-skinned ckit could work a lot better, especially with the consistency of style. And yes, I'm aware that it'd have to be pretty pricy since it's only for the humans. If anyone feels like coding this together, go for it. I just wanted to get some brainstorming going on the idea.

And guys, don't let Caveman get you worked up. If you just accept that he's a smoldering ball of irrational hatred, he starts seeming more funny than annoying. Try it! It also helps if you reply to his messages with this:

Caveman's positiveness and encouragement finally broke the max signature size!

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-[=AHs=]- DarkEnix

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2007, 02:56:16 am »
hmm.. but tru enf , it will be unbalance to alien , u nid something that erm , like shielder? , cuz when huamn charge at let say a goon , hes dying , n a support n some attckers chasing him , at that time , i dun think the goon will hav enf time to heal , but instade , he got killed

- Alien Support -

Support Allows to do sheld mode by pressing left click <no primary attacks>

S1 allowed (Cost 1 Evo OR maybe more)

S2 have primary attacks , cuz humans have blaster (2 evo , Advance Shielder or whatever)

S3 have additional attacks OR better shield (evo 3 , ultimate shielder or whatever)

S2 attack maybe like claw or bite

S3 attack maybe like shooting some of it's own shield force on enemies (must have shield force increase) OR for defensive type , PLASMA SHIELD!!! , higher defense , 2x the defense rate then normal

shield force will be shown above health

Shield force is twice of Health

Plasma Shield = 4x the amount of health OR if fire shield force , shield force = 3x of health

Shielder HP - 75
Advance Shielder HP - 100
Ultimate Shielder HP - 125

Biting / Claw Damage - Leg / Body / Head

Aganist Naked - 5 / 10 / 25
Aganist Armoured ONLY - 3 / 7 / 25
aganist helmet ONLY - 5 / 10 / 15
aganist armour n helmet - 3 / 7 / 15
aganist bsuit - 1 / 3 / 7

n pls , dun correct my inglish , got used to it XD
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The MC Horton Crankfire

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2007, 03:49:48 am »
Enix,  I don't think the aliens need a counterpart to the support kit. The idea behind it is that it just allows humans to survive more easily outside their base, and as it provides its wielder with no means of self-defense, a support man's teammates would compensate for their extra ammo and health by having to actively defend him. Plus, assuming we make it cost a lot of money, if a support does get killed it means a lot of cash down the drain. And finally, adding a support kit won't have as drastic an effect as adding a new weapon; you're not going to see packs of support guys prowling through hallways like you might in the case of a new weapon ("OH SNAP XAEL GANGBANG"). On a medium-size game, you might have one or two on your entire team.

This would, of course, have to be playtested to be proven. It might just turn out to be an unfair advantage after all, but seeing the ways that I think it could improve the game, I do think we'd want to add a counterpart to the aliens instead of botching the idea.

So. As for your shield alien, Enix, I'm not sure I see that working out. Almost the entire alien team has its own unique style of movement; how will the shielder be able to cope with all of them, and stay in front of them all to shield them? Especially since with the different alien speeds, they won't stay together enough for a shielder to cover more than one or two aliens at a time. In fact, the only aliens that commonly travel together by species are rants and dretches; rants are too big for you to effectively shield more than one at a time, and dretches (the good ones, at least) wallwalk so much and so unpredictably that a shielder would be rendered mostly useless, even if it's big enough to shield a whole pack of dretches if they were clustered in one place.

Secondly, and most obviously, more than one humans automatically negate the presence of a shielder. It's called circling. :P

And the final and most important problem with your alien is that the alien team doesn't really need a support class at all. They're designed to fare well on their own anywhere on the map, and all of their abilities and stats regenerate automatically, save for poison (and a poison-giving alien would be going too far, in my opinion). If that weren't enough, rants also have their healing aura, and alien forward bases are often much more viable than human ones.

So what the aliens might need instead (if indeed they need anything new) is a new non-support class, somehow. Hey, maybe we could make Battle Granger an official alien class? :D Idea I just thought of: one of his abilities could be eating grenades to stop them from exploding. First, when a gren is thrown near him, he would be visually/aurally alerted to it (it might glow in his field of vision, or produce some ambient sound, or both), then he'd go up to it, hold one of his attack buttons for a set amount of time (two seconds or so), and then just gulp it down. When it explodes inside of him, it could make a muffled "Boom!" sound, and a little puff of smoke would come out of his mouth. Tell me that wouldn't be adorable.

Another idea that came to me right after typing that: perhaps, if you could make his class sneaky enough (temporary invisibility?), he could in addition to/instead of swallowing the gren, just pick it up with his mouth and carry it for several seconds, to move it out of the path of danger or, more importantly, INTO the path of his foes. As a matter of fact, I think this is a pretty good idea. Even if it doesn't need to be used as a counterpoint to a support kit, this could perhaps be part of another mod.


tl;dr: Nix on the shield alien, and thumbs up on a battle granger.
Caveman's positiveness and encouragement finally broke the max signature size!

Quote from: Dr. Seuss
And what happened then...?
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That the Grinch's small heart
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-[=AHs=]- DarkEnix

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2007, 10:00:26 am »
how abt this , ultimate battle type alien that i have benn thinking for months , it would be hard to make though , Infested Human / Half Breed , any of this name will do

S3 Allowed

as fer this evolution , its sparated into 2 pieces the sword or whatever close range weapon n a posion cannon , some ammo , auto heal by standing in boosters

11 evo for 1st part which is either both wep , are allowed to choose
20 evo for 2nd part , whats extra , they can use 2 type of wep , n cannon ammo auto will not nid booster to get ammo , but slower , weapon dmg enhanced n hp incresed

HP ==
Part 1 - 600
Part 2 - 999

Damage ==
Melee Part 1 - 150
         Part 2 - 200
Range Part 1 50/10 per sec <posion>
          Part 2 75/25 per sec

===============================================================

To make it balance ,

 - Put Shield To Support Kit
 - New Weapon Lucifer Beam

As fer new weapon

S3 1000 credits
dmg 50 per second
good range
causes radiation fer like 10 second wich is like 20 dmg per second?
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fmart

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2007, 02:05:14 pm »
Very good idea. Aliens can genrate health but humans can not. Humans need some medistaton gun to give health far away base.

My game name is ^1f^3mart fmart but colort

Shadowgandor

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2007, 02:10:52 pm »
but the problem is that humans don't need to return to base at all. Watch a luci attack while a supporter refills him.
2 Jettards never having to return to base.
God forbid it: trade an armory for a turret, because you don't need to refill anymore.

The horrible horrible things that could come from this :P

techhead

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2007, 06:06:53 pm »
So make it just healing. Repeaters are free, you know. (I also had an idea for a 6-bp 'Ammo Rack', buy ammo, but no weapons, equipment, or grenades)
Change Secondary fire into some weak defensive weapon.
Maybe a 0-damage repel beam.
Away alien! Shoo! Leave me be!!!
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The MC Horton Crankfire

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 06:14:52 pm »
Shadowgandor and techhead, you bring up good points. Perhaps it should be healing-only, but it'd be interesting to test it both ways.
Caveman's positiveness and encouragement finally broke the max signature size!

Quote from: Dr. Seuss
And what happened then...?
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Steely Ann

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 07:02:59 pm »
Shadow brings up a good point?  Really?

If you can't single out and slash up an unarmed support guy, methinks you deserve to lose.

If you can't pummel the hell out of jet-tards in a timely fashion (Karith's outside gets a pass), methinks you deserve to lose.

And trading an armory for a turret because "you don't need to refill anymore"?  That's stupid, stupid, stupid.  And if that healer dies (as he inevitably will)?  'Grats, humies, you no longer have a support guy nor any ammo supply (sans reactor).  Good luck pistol-whipping those tyrants.

The MC Horton Crankfire

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2007, 07:39:46 pm »
Quote from: "Steely Ann"
Shadow brings up a good point?  Really?

If you can't single out and slash up an unarmed support guy, methinks you deserve to lose.

If you can't pummel the hell out of jet-tards in a timely fashion (Karith's outside gets a pass), methinks you deserve to lose.

And trading an armory for a turret because "you don't need to refill anymore"?  That's stupid, stupid, stupid.  And if that healer dies (as he inevitably will)?  'Grats, humies, you no longer have a support guy nor any ammo supply (sans reactor).  Good luck pistol-whipping those tyrants.

I just meant a good point in that, while you'd still be able to take down jettards, it's also not so good to encourage them. I'm well aware that a support guy would be no excuse to kill the armo.
Caveman's positiveness and encouragement finally broke the max signature size!

Quote from: Dr. Seuss
And what happened then...?
Well...in Who-ville they say
That the Grinch's small heart
Grew three sizes that day!

Steely Ann

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2007, 08:03:18 pm »
Meh.  To me, a human that is jet-tarding is one less human defending their base, making it that much easier for me to inflict mortal damage upon it.

==Troy==

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2007, 09:43:07 pm »
Indeed that is true. I completely agree with Ann and ought to say that Jettarding is only usefull in the base itself, where you have got amory in 5 meters from you.


The idea is nice and I quite like it. The gameplay will balance it out. But my another concern is a Quadro : Ckit + Skit + 2 lasguns camping a vent, or just 1 lasgun. Rechargin ammo from repeater and being healed by Skit.

Iltama

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2007, 10:12:04 pm »
Quote from: "techhead"
I also had an idea for a 6-bp 'Ammo Rack', buy ammo, but no weapons, equipment, or grenades)

I thought of sometime like that too once, even made it but came to conclusion that mines + that == no use
My ammo boxes

Risujin

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2007, 11:38:50 pm »
Quote from: "The MC Horton Crankfire"
Shadowgandor and techhead, you bring up good points. Perhaps it should be healing-only, but it'd be interesting to test it both ways.

Shameless plug time: Reverse damage relic in Arcade mod functions this way. I let players heal teammates to 150% of normal health (which later degenerates). It's very effective.

atomic1fire

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2007, 03:13:35 am »
I got a balencing idea
a walking hive with temporary invisibility that can be triggered and then has to be recharged so it could disappear for 60 seconds and then can only be seen if it runs out of time
a mother chameleon bug of sorts

-[=AHs=]- DarkEnix

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Medic/Support weapon
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2007, 06:30:56 am »
invisibllity = godly , even for support , i was thinking if it can regenerate its own stamina so that the supporter can run away IF his defender is down

As fer repell gun , BenMachine has alrdy made 1 in BenMachine's Insanity Mod
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