[Resolved?] OR "Gone Fishin'!"

[player1]

Split from here, for context, because talking about a place to post art is not talking about the art that was posted, but maybe in the wrong forum, depending on which mod decides to have a preference. We now rejoin our interruption, already in progress...


Ah, you all have a point.

This is general discussion of Tremulous: The Game to the modadmins.

Anything not directly related to playing the game (and not represented in one of the more specific sub-forums) should be posted in Off-Topic, as it is not general discussion of Tremulous: The Game, it is discussion of how Tremulous: The Phenomenon affected your personal creative tendencies.

HOWEVER, and it is a big however, these fanboy creator artists, fanfic combat scifi writers, free sigbanner posters and flash game producers do add an element of community to the game (perhaps a sort of cloying twee sycophantic community, but a community nonetheless), something which is often invoked but rarely fostered herein.

It may truly be time for yet another subforum:

Tremulous: Fans go wild! or how i made a webcomic about my fave free game during study hall

edited & poll added for context, which was sorely lacking, I'll be the judge of that, thanks

[Survivor]

Members have a hard time determining what forum they are in already, Adding another one is useless. Fun stuff goes into off-topic. I'm not that bothered if art or stories go into gd or off-topic. But nowhere else.

[player1]

There is a tremulous community group but no tremulous community sub-forum. You don't think that would be of value? A place where members could talk about the cool Tremulous-related stuff they made, separate from gd and from off-topic? A place to foster a sense of community, of peace, and brotherhood, in spreading Tremulous to the masses via our mass array of multimedia fan-addict adaptations? A kindler, gentler sub-forum, indicative of a new forum order? Where avatars abound and sig take up multiple pages whose frames they shatter? Where quote-trees and pixspam abounds?

[Survivor]

This entire forum is a tremulous community forum. Both gd and off-topic fit the description for fanart postings. Adding more fragments everything too much.
Besides don't start debating the correct usage of forums. Like I said already, most members have a hard enough time making useful posts in the correct place.

[player1]

Then you and lava obviously differ in your stated preferences and I defer to the caprices of your modadmin status to make such judgments. You the deputy, deputy.

[Survivor]

I indeed have have little authority. But does that mean I am not allowed to hold my own opinion? As for the examples you edited in of avatars, giant sigs and spam. Do you think that adds to the coherence of the forum? I think it's all bollocks which we shouldn't allow en masse. This isn't a strict forum by far, but members are going way over the bounds way more often lately.

[player1]

Still, if you were to direct them to one sub-forum or the other, where they could congregate, wouldn't that make it all worthwhile? What a great place for you to moderate. It'll all be unicorns and rainbows, with waterfalls of gumdrops and fairy dust. Sheer community as far as the eye can see...

i know u guyz leik 2 play bad cop/worse cop

Strategies & Tactics didn't turn out that bad

i have very little authority, and i intend to abuse every bit of it

[Survivor]

Because strategies & tactics, like the mapping forums is under strict control.

But the spillover that started happening when off-topic was created as exactly the place for people to spam and flame with moderation has turned into a cesspit where 2 out of 3 threads is worthless. Most threads in other forums are derailed by members who just can't seem to wrap their head around the thought of a topic subject. Just now I deleted an entire chain of posts in a thread in clans because apparently someone's supposed gender was thought more important by a few members than the actual clan whose topic it was.

[player1]

You don't say?

nice threadit, sheriff
totally out of context

[Survivor]

We were derailing a thread about a drawing so I split it up, nothing out of context with that. And if you keep up those remarks I won't even consider this worth discussing.

[player1]

Are we discussing it? I thought you were just telling me I was wrong.

[Survivor]

Not interested in your trolls. Come back when you have real arguments for your standpoints.

[player1]

The only real argument for another sub-forum would be that it would add something to the sense of community, and in the process, provide a place for all of the people who want to make some fanproduct about Tremulous to gather and to encourage each other. Off-Topic, to most people, means off the topic of Tremulous, not off the topic of whatever you decide it means. I think you may be out of touch with your constituency.

As I said in the past Survivor, you and I are very different individuals. When you are stating your personal opinion, it still carries with it the weight of your mod status. If you don't see the value of giving Tremulous fanboys a place to display what they create, away from the vagaries of gd and ot, then we just don't agree. Just remember, you're always gonna be the hall-monitor, you're not really "of the people" anymore, so to speak. With minor power comes...

I indeed have have little authority.

[Survivor]

Finally something worthwile

The only real argument for another sub-forum would be that it would add something to the sense of community,

Is that the only argument for? And please change my opinion by debunking some of my arguments against.

and in the process, provide a place for all of the people who want to make some fanproduct about Tremulous to gather and to encourage each other.

Good art like this, the one we came from and this gets cheered on and encouraged. No need for a seperate forum, the thread is all they need.

Off-Topic, to most people, means off the topic of Tremulous, not off the topic of whatever you decide it means. I think you may be out of touch with your constituency.

Derailing a thread from its topic is derailing a thread. Should we allow threads to switch topic every 5 posts, with the original poster's intention being lost in the onslaught of nonsensical posts?

As I said in the past Survivor, you and I are very different individuals. When you are stating your personal opinion, it still carries with it the weight of your mod status.

Of course we are different, and me being a mod might matter to some. But most people also know I keep to the rules the members have to adhere to, and my modding is done with thought. And anyone who has entered into discussions about mod decisions with me also knows that the statement 'Mods are members until they use their mod powers' is used often by me. Because what you are suggesting is I have too little authority to matter, see the deputy comment from you, but apparently also too much to be considered normal. Then tell me how I should position myself if you have such a clear image.

If you don't see the value of giving Tremulous fanboys a place to display what they create, away from the vagaries of gd and ot, then we just don't agree.

The problems come from the people who derail and spam threads. Because in a thread I see no reason for it not staying on topic, and in this case that would be the topic of art, if members stick to the rules.

Just remember, you're always gonna be the hall-monitor, you're not really "of the people" anymore, so to speak. With minor power comes...

See above.

[Caveman]

Can't we have the posts automagically spellchecked and all pics (except in the mapping-section) be banned instead?
This forum takes only links anyways, so why not let them be real links?

[techhead]

Finally something worthwile

Good art like this, the one we came from and this gets cheered on and encouraged. No need for a seperate forum, the thread is all they need.

Don't like my trem Legos?

I guess you don't want to see:
1. New and improved Tesla
2. Armory
3. Basilisk
4. Marauder
5. Goon (under construction)

[player1]

Sorry, brief break in the action, I had to do some work.

Before I respond to your most recent post, some things I would've said three hours ago, but I had to briefly go to work.

Survivor, if you and lava don't agree on whether fanfic, art and the like  should be posted in General Discussion, you can hardly expect members to know the appropriate venue. Members were talking about art in that thread, until a mod came in to change the subject to the appropriateness of the thread-placement (moving it would've been just as beneficial as talking about it). At that point, members responded to lava's comment about moving the thread to Off-Topic. The fact that then became the new subject of conversation should not be cause for great consternation, as a mod had already changed the subject, not the members. Members responding to a mod is seen as some sort of insubordination, not to be tolerated, when in fact people will sometimes be simply expressing that the policy isn't clear.

Also, if you meant to bifurcate the thread at the point where the subject changed, I would think you would've started with lava's post, or at least the first response to it. Instead you choose to split off a suggestion offered to ameliorate the us vs. them situation, and then rename the new thread "Another 'Bad Moderation' Thread", subtly suggesting that I was complaining about moderation when I was in fact pointing out the lack of a clear policy, (if that is what you contend members should adhere to). Again, if you can't agree among yourselves what the proper sub-forum is, I should think you would realize how that might affect the average member's view of the consistency of your approach.

I have to again object to your "aw, shucks" characterization of yourself as "just a member" when your immediate response to the suggestion was based on your experiences as a moderator. It simply doesn't wash. You're wearing the badge. You can't be "just one of the fellas". You ain't just "plain folks". You're the man. You talk the talk and you walk the walk. You're opinion is informed by your experience as a mod. Please don't insult the intelligence of the membership-at-large by suggesting otherwise. I'm sorry, Survivor, but you're overqualified to be "just a rank-and-file member, speaking in an unofficial capacity". You can't wear it like a cape and then expect not to be considered a cop. That's hardly the tone of the initial response, and still is not the tenor of your replies (look at what you renamed this chunk of the thread that you split off, and at your entire perception of the matter being discussed: Mods questioned - Survivor smash!)

If the Strategies and Tactics and Mapping sub-forums are fairly useful, have you considered that it might be as much through the restraint of the members as through any actions of the moderators? (I for one, rarely post there, out of respect for those sub-forums. Off-Topic, however is another matter entirely). A Community or Fanboy or Look-What-I-Made-Which-Has-To-Do-with-Tremulous sub-forum could be likewise well-moderated, and well-respected (although you will get a great deal of inevitable "u suXXorz", you'll also get a surprising amount of "how kewl"). And my main point, it would give creative types a place to congregate, a nexus, if you will, of creative juices flowing around Tremulous-inspired fanstuff, a place to center the energy of the membership and community around creating Tremulous-related art, fiction, videos, t-shirts, flash games, server browsers and the like. You seem so much more concerned with the possible down-side than enthused by the  probable up-side of the idea, that I must reiterate my earlier contention that you are speaking as a mod. You can't separate yourself from what you are.

I also get the feeling that you either haven't been a member of many other gaming websites, (in that you somehow think that the Off-Topic sub-forum won't be the one wild patch in your otherwise well-tended little garden), or perhaps you think that Tremulous is somehow sacrosanct, and that players of a deep, involved FPS-RTS-asymmetrical ranged vs. melee game like Tremulous don't need a place to have some fun. You're all stick, son, and no carrot. The Off-Topic sub-forum should have lots of locked topics, a good bit of spam, and some truly entertaing flaming. That's why it exists, not just to pan and pooh-pooh that which others find entertaining.

As much as I enjoy a good typefest, other people come to the forum for other reasons. One is to be entertained, and mess around with some Tremulous people. Some (most) people won't even read these long point-counterpoint posts. You seem to expect a level of discourse which is beyond the "give-a-shit" tolerance of the average gamer.

Lastly, I think you're mostly afraid that most of the fanstuff produced by the current community won't be the way the Old Guard of Trem.net wants to be perceived (as possibly amateurish, inept and n00bly). That's the general sense I get.

I'll play quote-for-quote with you later.

GG/GTG/AFK/BBL/CYA/l8z

Dinnertime, and spouse maintenance commencing.

Caveman, you're after the reply to the quotewar.

Cheers!

Surv, btw, thx 4 first post, I got to rename it and add a poll. I considered calling it 'Survivor doesn't like me or my ideas' but that was as silly as your topic name. I mock w/ <3.

Hafta typefight tomorrow, time to curl up with a good book.

We were derailing a thread about a drawing so I split it up, nothing out of context with that. And if you keep up those remarks I won't even consider this worth discussing.

In America, that's known as "taking my kickball and going home".

ps - a thread about a drawing that had already been derailed by a mod calling said drawing "nonsense", and suggesting it be posted elsewhere (somehow that part escaped your usually impeccable scrutiny)

[Survivor]

Don't like my trem Legos?

I guess you don't want to see:
1. New and improved Tesla
2. Armory
3. Basilisk
4. Marauder
5. Goon (under construction)

I am not going to spend hours finding every fan input made. These were some examples that came to mind and whose keywords where in my mind.

Sorry, brief break in the action, I had to do some work.
Before I respond to your most recent post, some things I would've said three hours ago, but I had to briefly go to work.

Understandable, we all have lives outside of trem.

Survivor, if you and lava don't agree on whether fanfic, art and the like  should be posted in General Discussion, you can hardly expect members to know the appropriate venue. Members were talking about art in that thread, until a mod came in to change the subject to the appropriateness of the thread-placement (moving it would've been just as beneficial as talking about it). At that point, members responded to lava's comment about moving the thread to Off-Topic. The fact that then became the new subject of conversation should not be cause for great consternation, as a mod had already changed the subject, not the members. Members responding to a mod is seen as some sort of insubordination, not to be tolerated, when in fact people will sometimes be simply expressing that the policy isn't clear.

Yes, things might be unclear. But members who respond to a mod isn't seen as subordination in most cases, because if it was we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Also, if you meant to bifurcate the thread at the point where the subject changed, I would think you would've started with lava's post, or at least the first response to it. Instead you choose to split off a suggestion offered to ameliorate the us vs. them situation, and then rename the new thread "Another 'Bad Moderation' Thread", subtly suggesting that I was complaining about moderation when I was in fact pointing out the lack of a clear policy, (if that is what you contend members should adhere to). Again, if you can't agree among yourselves what the proper sub-forum is, I should think you would realize how that might affect the average member's view of the consistency of your approach.

If you know my modding you also know I will never edit or delete another mod's posts. At worst I will question his decision in the open. As I have done with Lava's cat post and with some of paradox's lock threats. Why? Because in-fighting on a single management level of any organization is a sure way to bring the house down. This applies even more if that level has powers which can seriously fuck up the board.

I have to again object to your "aw, shucks" characterization of yourself as "just a member" when your immediate response to the suggestion was based on your experiences as a moderator. It simply doesn't wash. You're wearing the badge. You can't be "just one of the fellas". You ain't just "plain folks". You're the man. You talk the talk and you walk the walk. You're opinion is informed by your experience as a mod. Please don't insult the intelligence of the membership-at-large by suggesting otherwise. I'm sorry, Survivor, but you're overqualified to be "just a rank-and-file member, speaking in an unofficial capacity". You can't wear it like a cape and then expect not to be considered a cop. That's hardly the tone of the initial response, and still is not the tenor of your replies (look at what you renamed this chunk of the thread that you split off, and at your entire perception of the matter being discussed: Mods questioned - Survivor smash!)

If I am not a rank and file member then accept me as a moderator. Because any and all mods get ignored, you can watch yourself with the image spree you had a while ago, or noob plox with his sig changes and other issues. And we can do little more then edit, delete and lock. There are no punitive measures available to us directly to stop you.
about "Mods questioned - Survivor smash!". That wasn't the topic title. It was "another 'bad moderation' topic". Because that is what boils down to. You question our moderation, and that's why it's in brackets. Descriptive enough of the topic subject.

If the Strategies and Tactics and Mapping sub-forums are fairly useful, have you considered that it might be as much through the restraint of the members as through any actions of the moderators? (I for one, rarely post there, out of respect for those sub-forums. Off-Topic, however is another matter entirely). A Community or Fanboy or Look-What-I-Made-Which-Has-To-Do-with-Tremulous sub-forum could be likewise well-moderated, and well-respected (although you will get a great deal of inevitable "u suXXorz", you'll also get a surprising amount of "how kewl"). And my main point, it would give creative types a place to congregate, a nexus, if you will, of creative juices flowing around Tremulous-inspired fanstuff, a place to center the energy of the membership and community around creating Tremulous-related art, fiction, videos, t-shirts, flash games, server browsers and the like. You seem so much more concerned with the possible down-side than enthused by the  probable up-side of the idea, that I must reiterate my earlier contention that you are speaking as a mod. You can't separate yourself from what you are.

I love the upside, but I see no reason for there to be a seperate forum for it. A thread is a contained discussion in that regard and can serve the same purpose. And of course I'm speaking as a mod in this instant because we are in fact talking about moderation concerns.

I also get the feeling that you either haven't been a member of many other gaming websites, (in that you somehow think that the Off-Topic sub-forum won't be the one wild patch in your otherwise well-tended little garden), or perhaps you think that Tremulous is somehow sacrosanct, and that players of a deep, involved FPS-RTS-asymmetrical ranged vs. melee game like Tremulous don't need a place to have some fun. You're all stick, son, and no carrot. The Off-Topic sub-forum should have lots of locked topics, a good bit of spam, and some truly entertaing flaming. That's why it exists, not just to pan and pooh-pooh that which others find entertaining.

I know there will be overflow, but this forum is ridiculous in it when it comes to trolls, flamers and derailers. Feedback and especially gd are very bad in it.
There is a place to have fun and you mentioned it. Off-topic. We don't lock that much here, except exactly that which just doesn't fit or has gone over the bounds. We usually do so after a warning unless the topic didn't have a  credible start anyway.

As much as I enjoy a good typefest, other people come to the forum for other reasons. One is to be entertained, and mess around with some Tremulous people. Some (most) people won't even read these long point-counterpoint posts. You seem to expect a level of discourse which is beyond the "give-a-shit" tolerance of the average gamer.

Noone is obligated to read this topic. Then again most members don't read the rules section or certain stickies either before posting.
I don't care about other people atm, we are the ones having a discussion and if other people join in then we'll just get more input. Fine by me.

Lastly, I think you're mostly afraid that most of the fanstuff produced by the current community won't be the way the Old Guard of Trem.net wants to be perceived (as possibly amateurish, inept and n00bly). That's the general sense I get.

How? I linked to some art I found awesome and which I could remember by heart. How do you conclude I don't like additions to trem lore?

Surv, btw, thx 4 first post, I got to rename it and add a poll. I considered calling it 'Survivor doesn't like me or my ideas' but that was as silly as your topic name. I mock w/ <3.

I am not going to bother with inventing a creative title, I just put in a description and let it flow

We were derailing a thread about a drawing so I split it up, nothing out of context with that. And if you keep up those remarks I won't even consider this worth discussing.

In America, that's known as "taking my kickball and going home".

So you are saying we should totally derail the thread from it's purpose. That all these long posts should have been in that topic? Would that serve the OP's intent?

ps - a thread about a drawing that had already been derailed by a mod calling said drawing "nonsense", and suggesting it be posted elsewhere (somehow that part escaped your usually impeccable scrutiny)

See my "mods don't edit, lock, delete other mods" attitude up in this post.

[Lava Croft]

People currently have trouble with posting in the sections we do have, I agree with Survivor that adding yet another section might not be a smart thing. We would not want to confuse you, you have difficulties enough trying to figure out where to post.

I prefer fan-art to be posted in OT, but I can totally understand that GD is just about as good a place for it. That's the beauty of the Human psyche, it doesn't have to be either black or white.

[player1]

A considered reply.

So stipulated and permission to treat the witness as hostile. A cogent argument I shan't attempt to go quote-to-quote-quote with (ricercar in three voices), too busy elsewhere, nice coda here though.

People currently have trouble with posting in the sections we do have, I agree with Survivor that adding yet another section might not be a smart thing. We would not want to confuse you, you have difficulties enough trying to figure out where to post.

I prefer fan-art to be posted in OT, but I can totally understand that GD is just about as good a place for it. That's the beauty of the Human psyche, it doesn't have to be either black or white.

Resolution?

ty (u roll how u roll, he rolls how he rolls, 'scool)

i wondered if u were ever coming out of the name the game thread, lol

btw, doesn't anybody read subject lines anymore?

any chance of a sticky for off-topic posting suggestions?

just kinda wanted to hear from the original mod about the original issue, which i thought was a dumb yet mildly possible suggestion

ALIENZ WIN!

hax! i missed my jump :|

gg/l8z/thx/pof

8] ;p xd



oh yeah, so is all fanart nonsense?

Can't we have the posts automagically spellchecked and all pics (except in the mapping-section) be banned instead?
This forum takes only links anyways, so why not let them be real links?

OK

i'd call it an etude in postmodern noiseclassical for oboe and flying-V in f# min with occasional accompaniment (continuo for flute, lute & Farfisa organ)

[+ OPTIMUS +]

it would be simply nice to see fan works at one place.

thats all -.-

and this whole thing didnt came up because there is a massive art-spam on the GD. but because there is too much put it here-put it there stuff.
mod's job would be easy if there could be Fan art section, so there would't be a fight like this
"does Tremulous related fanart stuff belongs to the Things not related to Tremulous topic"
i dont know if i am the only one who finds this funny...

Lava wrote:
"That's the beauty of the Human psyche, it doesn't have to be either black or white."
i agree with that.
black: GD (posting art there could be disturbing for those who are just looking for datas and chitchat about game)
white: OT (but why to put anything On-Topic to Off-Topic?)

so there could be a beautyful wide range of colors at fan art section.

i am lesser than a noob at making forums technix so i dont know if its too much work. if it takes more efforts than making a (nonsense)drawing like i did, then i stfu.

btw take a look on the general discussions topic. third of the topics are creative fan-art. we keep on creating, you keep whinnnning. if we disturb the order with that, make us a proper place. because whining disturbs us, and spamming our threads, taking the attention away from the subject, and breaking the creative moral.

[Lava Croft]

black: GD (posting art there could be disturbing for those who are just looking for datas and chitchat about game)
white: OT (but why to put anything On-Topic to Off-Topic?)

You totally misunderstand my analogy. I was trying to point out that the benefit of the Human psyche is that you don't have to either do this(black) or that(white), but that you can easily go for a little bit of this(black) and that(white), resulting in a nice shade of gray.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

oopsie, i just edited while you replied.
but mainframe stayed still.

the nice shades of grey are just here.

now there is some art in the off topic, there is some with whining in the general discussions, there are some misunderstandings everywhere, there is our rpoblem, there is your problem, there is survivors problem, chaos here-chaos there. and we are all sad about it, so we must be on the same side. take our hands, and make us a section if we are disturbing you in GD.

or how else would you translate your analogy to the current situation?

[+ OPTIMUS +]

Survivor:

"While we're at it let's make some sections for spam, trolls, banwhines, serverwhines, when is 2.0 coming, english class, hey i have a cool idea but i have absolutely no skill which is needed to complete it, look at my killwhore score etc.

And lava. You should know better than fighting fire with fire."

spam+trolls+banwhines+etc... = art for tremulous?

i think it takes a little less energy to spam some sillyness than making a video, an animation, a flash game or even a drawing etc. and its waaaaay more constructive than the things you mentioned.

think it twice -.- please -.-

[Survivor]

Making a new section for every members' whim would result in such a large amount of subforums that there is no overview anymore.
Is there any problem against posting fanart in gd? Is there any objection that sucky stuff, even if tremulous related goes to off-topic to keep the overview of the tremulous related forums clear? The fact is that there is nothing against posting art in gd. If it's bad it will get burned to the ground and if it's good it will get praised into the sky.
Now I split this off from the art topic in gd to keep it from derailing and have it dedicated to the art and not the discussion. And within a day it has turned back to the topic which we are also discussing here. Is it that hard to understand? Why can't people leave a topic stay on topic.

You know, call me crazy, but I don't see the problem with posting fanart--great fanart at that--of Tremulous to a forum dedicated to the discussion of things relating to Tremulous. It just wouldn't make sense to put it in Off-Topic.

Perhaps the mods here can stop being so stubborn, realize that sometimes (*cough*often*cough*) they're wrong, and listen to the suggestions made by the members.

Also, I don't see it either. But members are turning this more into a member vs mod debate than one of the discussion at hand. If you'd notice the main discussion here is with me. And I stated it can go in both off-topic and general discussion without problem. The fact that lava stated different is at the core here. But then making the silly statement that all mods are 'often' wrong and not listening to the members equates to me that you haven't even kept up with what has been said earlier on by all parties involved. Don't take this as a bash against you. Just something which i've noticed happens a lot in discussions pertaining to moderation here.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

i agree that this shouldn't be member vs mod thing.

but mods should make a decision about how they are handling this thing.

being in GD is not a problem for creative things.

but being bothered that it's off-topic is.
being moved to off-topic is.

i think it's good idea to make a topic for Fan art because high rate of threads are in this subject as i see. some agreed with me, player even opened a topic for that(this one), and there is the Poll also, so i dont think that it's totally stupid.
but this idea came up to my mind because Lava clearly stated that he wants to clear GD from this kind of things, what is also understandable, even if he is telling it with his trolling flavour.

i can also understand that new topics cant be opened every day, but then i don't want to hear the cries if i misplace something that has no place.  please.

[Shadowgandor]

You won't here cries if there are no people whining about it.

[Survivor]

i agree that this shouldn't be member vs mod thing.
but mods should make a decision about how they are handling this thing.
being in GD is not a problem for creative things.
but being bothered that it's off-topic is.
being moved to off-topic is.

Then your problem isn't with me it's with lava.

i think it's good idea to make a topic for Fan art because high rate of threads are in this subject as i see. some agreed with me, player even opened a topic for that(this one), and there is the Poll also, so i dont think that it's totally stupid.
but this idea came up to my mind because Lava clearly stated that he wants to clear GD from this kind of things, what is also understandable, even if he is telling it with his trolling flavour.

What you mean is a subforum. And no that is not a good idea. You can see my points in this thread and the lack of counterarguments against them is why i still stand behind it.
Player did not open a topic. This is a splitoff from posts in your art topic. If I didn't splitt it off all these long drawn out posts would have detracted from the subject of your topic which is your drawing.
And the poll means nothing. There are numerous polls whose results are skewed by people who vote for the heck of voting for the funny option or are simply not knowledgable enough. Compare it to the auto f1 urge of the masses in trem itself. A good example would be this topic. It shows what people want, not what is possible. Because I can guarantee you that if even 1/4 of the people that voted for were coders we'd be well along our way into ai now. Yet there is also 1/3 who knows that you can get ai into trem from a coding interest point of view, but it won't be good.

i can also understand that new topics cant be opened every day, but then i don't want to hear the cries if i misplace something that has no place.  please.

Admins can open up forums easily. It's not hard at all. But the fact that something can be done does not mean it's a good thing.

To clarify, I'm not against art being in either gd or off-topic. I'm against opening a seperate forum for it.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

well okay, we already spent this whole day writing theese stuffs, its starting to be funny :-)
unite your moderator opinions.

-peace-

[player1]

You won't see flames if there are no mods whining about it.

fixed

well okay, we already spent this whole day writing theese stuffs, its starting to be funny :-)
unite your moderator opinions.

-peace-

QFT!

this

that

(lol) the other

consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds

so there u have it then

:hrm:

ur collective anguish sustains us (lol)