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Author Topic: Breed Cap?  (Read 7462 times)

Stasis

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Breed Cap?
« on: May 19, 2006, 01:33:21 am »
In larger games ( 12v12 or larger ) aliens can prove to be inextinguishable by their massive breeding power.

The main problem I have is that aliens can spread structures faster than the humans can destroy them. I've seen maps where 3 lone, separate grangers can extend maps to SD / Timelimit with relative ease. Is the goal for both teams to have a base, or is that only a requirement of the humans?

Is anything being done to address this, or is this a "feature" (coughcheesecough) of the alien team?
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BabyAlien

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2006, 03:31:06 am »
As with most things I suspect that strategy is the solution to that problem.  A human team with the right equipment can probably lick the issue without problem, but humans running around all over are going to have little effect.

One defensive strategy for aliens is to spread eggs all over the map.  Humans in theory should recognize the strategy and adapt.
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stahlsau

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2006, 10:31:08 am »
i think this isn't a real problem if the humans drop their bs and get helmets. Anyway, most of them are too afraid to do that ;)
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Stof

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2006, 10:53:33 am »
Well, it is a problem in Transit. The map is so big that it's easy for aliens to hide everywhere. So big that the helmet detection range feels limited and so open that Adv. Grangers have no difficulties outrunning any human.
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

SLAVE|Mietz

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    • http://blasted.tremulous.info
Breed Cap?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 01:09:29 pm »
like allready said, egghunt with helmets, if they can't spawn, they die, sooner or later.
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Neo

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2006, 11:53:31 pm »
Also most of the time there are set areas where they put eggs, just use helmets and scout those areas and you won't have a problem.
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Norfenstein

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2006, 12:36:29 am »
It definitely is a problem on Transit, but I haven't seen it become unmanageable on any other map. At the moment though I can't think of a solution for it that isn't a blatant hack -- we'd need something that actually fits smoothly in with the game and only affects egg spam (like how eggs can't be built without an Overmind, which was added in to help this very problem).
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Teiman

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Re: Breed Cap?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2006, 05:15:09 pm »
Humans with jetpacks can patroll all the map. Is only inferior or equal as good players that still cant clear that.

Anyway to build eggs you need OM, so kill OM and will stop granders building eggs.
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Stof

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Re: Breed Cap?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2006, 06:43:21 pm »
Quote from: "Teiman"
Humans with jetpacks can patroll all the map. Is only inferior or equal as good players that still cant clear that.

Anyway to build eggs you need OM, so kill OM and will stop granders building eggs.

You need to play more often on Transit against good alien builders if you still think that.

Aliens do not care for OM, all they need is to build one, and once it's finished, build a few more eggs everywhere. If the OM is destroyed they don't care at all, they'll just build one more somewhere.
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

[HUN]N.M.I.

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2006, 07:26:03 pm »
Well, Transit should be removed, there are two glitches that can ruin gameplay (invisible buildings and invincible OverMind).
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Neo

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 07:53:24 pm »
no points dropping a map cos of optional bugs, if you go on bugs then you'd have to consider arachnid2 as well. I've seen gangers build instant growth eggs on the railings on the corridor leading to the alien base.
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Stof

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2006, 08:00:02 pm »
Quote from: "[HUN
N.M.I."]Well, Transit should be removed, there are two glitches that can ruin gameplay (invisible buildings and invincible OverMind).

You forgot that they can build eggs inside the little cage under the rails. Only way for humans to kill aliens here is through a very small opening on the ground and only if the alien stands in front.
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Survivor

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2006, 08:36:53 pm »
That fault lies with the people who exploit the bug on purpose since I find it hard to believe people do that on accident.  
The egg hunt on transit is hard only because of the map's size but a sweep of the map purely by humans with helmets who control certain chokepoints should be able to remove any eggs.
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Stof

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2006, 08:42:37 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"
That fault lies with the people who exploit the bug on purpose since I find it hard to believe people do that on accident.  
The egg hunt on transit is hard only because of the map's size but a sweep of the map purely by humans with helmets who control certain chokepoints should be able to remove any eggs.

That's supposing there isn't one or two adv dragoons roaming around.
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Norfenstein

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2006, 11:57:05 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"
That fault lies with the people who exploit the bug on purpose since I find it hard to believe people do that on accident.

More like the fault lies with server admins that haven't updated to a version that fixes the bug, but let's stay on topic.

Quote from: "Survivor"
The egg hunt on transit is hard only because of the map's size but a sweep of the map purely by humans with helmets who control certain chokepoints should be able to remove any eggs.

Should but isn't. Egg hunts on transit are not only due to its size; it's not even the biggest map. The problem is that wallwalking actually makes getting around significantly faster than in maps that are mostly simple corridors. Even just jetpacking over one of the trains is about half as slow as wallwalking over it, and there are really very few places where a granger can't easily run away to safety. For this map specifically I'd say slap some nobuild over the ceiling, walls, and floor (below the trains) of the train area, since this room is particularly easy to egg spam in, but that doesn't solve the problem for anyone else wants to make a map that isn't all corridors and small rooms.
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evilfish

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 03:24:08 am »
It seems pretty fine to me. Humans just need to... Err, not camp?
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chompers

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 05:02:24 am »
With even teams this isn't really a problem. The unstoppable egg spam happens most often when Aliens have a numbers advantage and Humans have a skill/ping advantage. Even in a small game on Tremor it is impossible for 3 skilled Humans working as a team to wipe out a team of 5 Aliens when 3 or 4 of them spend most of the game egg spamming.

The numbers advantage doesn't work the other way though, more Humans with less skill just means a faster s3 for Aliens.

One suggestion for egg hunts though; when you see an egg and a granger together, kill the egg first and then chase the granger. The reasoning is that eggs can make new grangers much faster than grangers can make new eggs.
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Stof

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2006, 09:41:38 am »
Quote from: "Norfenstein"
The problem is that wallwalking actually makes getting around significantly faster than in maps that are mostly simple corridors. Even just jetpacking over one of the trains is about half as slow as wallwalking over it, and there are really very few places where a granger can't easily run away to safety. For this map specifically I'd say slap some nobuild over the ceiling, walls, and floor (below the trains) of the train area, since this room is particularly easy to egg spam in, but that doesn't solve the problem for anyone else wants to make a map that isn't all corridors and small rooms.

I say you've got it perfectly cornered. Egg hunts on transit are very hard because either you take a painsaw + jetpack and kill eggs fast but you have to let grangers run away, or you take some other weapon and it takes lots of time to kill eggs, grangers are still hard to kill with their wallwalking and you have to go back to the base every 2 egg to refill ammo.
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Neo

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 12:46:59 pm »
There's another exploit like the transit 'falling hive' one in Karin, iff you managed to exploit egg placement you can build your entire base where humans can't get to.
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Teiman

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Breed Cap?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2006, 01:58:23 pm »
Maybe the dev's can code separate .ent files to store exclusion areas, killbox and other minor "pach" stuff to fix problems on maps. This way you dont need to edit BSP files, rebuild BSP, edit internal entitys, etc... you distribute new .ent files with the fix entitys.

This separate .ent file will serve, also, to spawn more eggs or other stuff as needed, to balance minor problems, and to change slighty the gameplay. Nowdays we have only a few maps, and small changes can be good, i guest.
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