Author Topic: Scoreboard Ideas  (Read 50144 times)

Medic

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Scoreboard Ideas
« on: January 12, 2008, 04:10:18 pm »
Anyone knowledgeable agrees that the scoreboard shouldn't just display kills and it would be nice to assign a score or a value based on kills/deaths/structures destroyed/strucutres built, the problem is balancing that.  If you do it just based on enemies killed and enemies' structures killed, the builders don't get any recognition and a good builder is worth more than half of the team most of the time.  You can argue having a factor to score based on buildings built and healed, but then you'll have that retard who just  moves stuff or bleeds the buildings and then repairs it and says he's so valuable.  Everyone agrees something should change, but what?  We have the mystats available so you can see your killing/feeding/deaths scores and your buildings destroyed/healed (maybe healed?  I don't remember), but it would not be good for everyone to see these stats.

This brings me to a few ideas I had for redoing the scoreboard.  I was not thinking of posting this on tremulous.net but I have been talked into it.

Note beforehand:  I'm trying to award points in tremulous based on the things that I believe are important to the game.  These include destroying the opponent's base, staging up, not feeding, draining the other team of creds/evos, and good building.

So, here's a couple of preliminary ideas I was thinking about:

Have 2 broad categories, building/repairing (BR) and kills/deaths/structures killed  (KDS)

For S1, S2, and S3, you have a maximum score you can achieve and each stage is individualized and averaged at the end of a match for your overall score. 

6 categories of scoring:  Poor, Fair, Average, Above Average, Good, Elite(? I don't like that word but it fits). 
                      Maybe:    E      D       C               B               A      S

If there is a numerical score, it might be hard to average with a builder, but if we have a guy who is a A class builder for the entire time, he gets an A or if we have a guy who builds A for S1, is a B KDS guy for S2 and a C KDS for S3, we give him an overall combined rating of B.  Not to go in circles all day, but I realize there are those that might not like just a letter so a score is also possible, just harder.  The letters would be based on a score, but right now, letters and words are used because I need to into excel and work on how I would want to weight the scores.

Where the points you earn per round earns you your letter rating.  A +/- system can be used for averaging.

Where you recieve a rating for each stage that will average into your final rating.  (Yes, I'm thinking there should be a point cap per stage (the S rating), maybe it would have some sort of carry over bonus or modifier)

At each stage, everyone is going to start off as average or zero, I don't know which right now because awarding points to determine a rating is tough in theory.  (I would love to have some game data to play with this)

At stage 1, we award structure kills the most points, kills that advance the stage average points, and feeds as negative points.

At stage 2, we weight everything about same because S2 is a transitionary stage and can be very brief.

At stage 3, we weight structure kills highest, have a hierarchy of points based on class of thing you've killed (dretches and unarmoreds being worth very little and suits/rants being higher) and substract deaths from the point total.  I realize there is no more stage upping at S3, but it is annoying to have that retard that feeds everyone into rants and suits. 

Now the tricky part, building.  I was thinking that we can make builder ratings seperate or award partial points for building.  Maybe this is unclear, but I'm saying KDS is one way to score you and builders can get a seperate but equivalent rating based on your BR score.

I'm thinking this will have to be done based on the length of time one is a granger/ckit.  Say you're a ckit for 10% of the total time of a stage, your score defaults to your KDS score but you get a small point bonus towards your KDS (kills death structures) score which helps you get a higher rating.  Weight this small bonus based on % time builder (I'm thinking linearly but who knows, maybe we'll have to use a function of X^1/2 or X^2).  For anything over 50%, I'm thinking this is where we award points  primarily on buildings moved/repaired.  Now I know you can say, but I deconned the RC/OM for X to build it, he's just going to get the points.  For something like that, I'd say both people should be awarded points if the same structure is built within X seconds of the first structure being deconned.  That way team base moves are actually encouraged and supported.  Repairs will get their own points based on repairing.  And obviously TKing a structure will always earn anyone negative points.

Obviously, the balance won't be perfect, but you can always have a base number of points for ckit held for X% time.

But that is also why I was thinking about the letter ratings idea that are equivalent to points of someone reaches the 50% builder time.  You can then rate building seperately on it's own point scale and average that letter in with the other two letters.  And just award a certain number of bonus points to the kds scale.  After all, a good builder can win/lose it for a team.

But there's still much to be figured out when your building time is 50% and you go and do KDS type stuff, but I don't see why a modifier can't be applied an extra points awarded. 

Anyways, this is just some ideas that came to me this morning.  I'd love to hear from coders about the feasibility of this, to hear about what other knowledgeable people think to add/remove suggestions, and anyone that can supply me data to put into excel if we decide we'd like to go with some sort of structure like this.

Also, I tried to concieve this based on the data collection that is already done with Lakitu7's mystat functions or with data collection that doesn't exist, but could be created based on what Lakitu7 did with mystats.  Example, he has it record the time someone is near the base, well, couldn't that theoretically be changed to how long you hold a kit/be a granger?

Raytray

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 04:21:25 pm »
For the builder, it's very hard to set up a scoring system. What about buildings built, how much damage those structs dealt, minus how much the structures took, and how long a structure is in one place before being decon'ed or taken down. And maybe a score bonus to the builders at the end for winning.

I'd stay away from more points closer to base kind of ideas. Because I've seen some very effective forward bases. While they are not often they do happen. As well as moving base requires building farther away from base.

While these are good ideas, and the builder one is harder to do.

I'd prefer if there was no scoreboard. This would stop people from running around like crazies just killing everything or camping a spawn. Or even sitting outside the enemy's base.

Oh. And subtract points for whining.
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cumesoft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 07:42:09 pm »
It wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Since trem is more an strategy game, it would go well knowing who did the best for the team, no matter the killings.

Rocinante

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 08:10:06 pm »
Might also help with the people who, upon seeing the scoreboard at the end, brag that they're "#1" because their name is on the top of the list.  I've seen quite a few games where the person in the top slot, and sometimes the top couple slots, did very little to win the game except maybe help to increase the stage counter.  But without the others below them - the builders, the rushing team that takes out the base, etc - the game would've kept going until the opposing team got to the point where they overtook the killwhores and won.  Too many people don't understand that "kills" does not equal "skills".
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Caveman

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 08:33:36 pm »
I want to warn V-Caveman that this thread will be Gestapo-style policed by me and your whining will not be allowed here. Add 'constructive' input to this discussion or shut up.

Lava

aha?

Now we are in a time where we either have to post to your liking or get the posts deleted?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 02:21:09 pm by Caveman »

Medic

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 09:56:33 pm »
I wouldn't know, I don't read the trem forums much as I never seem to find useful information.  This isn't team deathmatch, the scoreboard needs to be better.  I can get access to data and coders.  I've actually be reviewing the feasibility and the complications of this current suggestion and I'm reworking my idea.  I believe this is a worthy endeavor so I will pursue it until it is deemed a failure. 

Plague

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 10:11:59 pm »
The idea of a rating column on the HUD scoreboard was actually present on FooBar's server Avalanche some time ago.  Unfortunately, the server now seems to be down and FooBar inactive, but his patch can be found here.  As I remember, the changes were quite contentious and caused more grief than appreciation.  His rating system was much less complex than what Medic has proposed, but the framework is there for additional variables to be computed into the overall player score.  Personally, I'm somewhat sceptical about rating systems - you can't gauge a player's worthiness by numbers alone.

Knowitall66

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 10:18:49 pm »
All i'd really like to see is a damage dealt/received and deaths(Hehehe, Identify the feeders) in scores.

cumesoft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 10:54:57 pm »
...Too many people don't understand that "kills" does not equal "skills".
Indeed. I completely agree with that.



Another attempt to bring stats to trem?
What is new/different than in the last couple attempt that failed as no one really wanted kill-stats keyed by _single player_ in a _team game_?
If you read the OP's post properly, you knew. This is a strategy game. Why would only the kills matter for the score. Indeed, in trem, builders are of the most importance. Medic's idea has substance, unlike others (that you may mention).

I guess reading is better than using the search button, isn't it?
...Personally, I'm somewhat sceptical about rating systems - you can't gauge a player's worthiness by numbers alone.
You have a point there. Although numbers don't measure the player's worthiness, the more info you have in a scoreboard, the more properly you can evaluate a player.

All i'd really like to see is a damage dealt/received and deaths(Hehehe, Identify the feeders) in scores.
I must say that deaths may not reflect the skills either. Especially in a LAN game where the players of the opposing team are all pointed at you. However, I agree that deaths should feature in the scoreboard.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 11:06:42 pm by cumesoft »

Lava Croft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 02:30:31 pm »
I have stickied this in good trust that Medic and his friends are making an actual attempt at getting this done. I for one hope they succeed.

Medic

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 04:18:38 am »
Just to give an update, I have a proposal in the works and it will be forthcoming just as soon as I edit it and review it as it it currently close to 2000 words long.  I would like to clean it up and tweak a few of my examples.

Lava Croft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2008, 08:59:44 pm »
Just to give an update, I have a proposal in the works and it will be forthcoming just as soon as I edit it and review it as it it currently close to 2000 words long.  I would like to clean it up and tweak a few of my examples.
That might not be a bad idea, considering the attention span of the average forum visitor...

cumesoft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2008, 10:46:44 pm »
Just to give an update, I have a proposal in the works and it will be forthcoming just as soon as I edit it and review it as it it currently close to 2000 words long.  I would like to clean it up and tweak a few of my examples.
I'm looking forward to see your idea on Tremulous v1.2.

GlobalWarming

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 11:06:02 am »
Hi, I agree with Knowitall66... In my personal opinion just adding a "dead" statistics as in other shooter games may help to know how much others (or myself) are feeding, or a relation dead/kill value.
I think when builders are good, it is not necessary to award them (I like to play as builder most of the time), usually you can recognize a good built base from a bad one, and builders know that. Obviously, as expected a builder don't get many points, such as a "defense" position in many sports.

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Lava Croft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 01:22:19 pm »
The real challenge lies in trying to get a system working that rewards everybody who positively adds to the team. This is why also builders should recieve some kind of praise on the scoreboard.

Lava Croft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 06:10:23 pm »
I'll go a bit out of my way here and just say that Medic has finished a draft and it is currently being reviewed, expect it being posted by Medic here soon.

Medic

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2008, 01:11:02 am »
Scoreboard Proposal

This is a proposal to change the scoreboard display to provide a rating instead of just a killcount.  Based on the objectives and the gameplay of Tremulous, a killcount is an inadequate way to judge one’s worth in a match.  The killcounter gives people this idea that we’re playing team deathmatch.  I’m not saying the proposed system will be perfect, but rather it will be substantially less flawed than kills.  If you’ve played on a server with the Lakitu7 QVM, then you’ve probably seen the /mystats function in console.  This provides a wealth of knowledge that only the player can see.  We’re not here to debate why/why not that is the case, but rather, I bring it up because there is good information already there that can worked into a scoring system.  The point being that I know these functions work and it will ease the amount of coding that needs to be done on the project.  My other ideas were made without an understanding of the feasibility of implantation.  Thus, I submit a practical, implementable way to rate a player on the way Tremulous should be played. 

Basically, the amount of damage done to structures (friendly or otherwise) and players (friendly or otherwise) is recorded and yields a bulk number.  The general idea is to have a formula where the basic equation looks something like this:

Score = {A*(damage to players) + B*(damage to structures) – C*(damage to friendly structures) – D*(damage to friendly players)}/E

Now, to answer the concepts and the variables (A,B,C,D,E) and I will answer the building questions in a later section.  It is possible to record all of the damage done to the above mentioned items.  Now, instead of just taking kills, we have all this all data on damage but I’m adding modifiers.  The reason being, Tremulous is a game where you’re supposed to destroy the spawns and the last remaining players of the opposing team.  A base exists to protect the spawns and aid the opposing team.  The base and structures are the important things to destroy, so modifier B would be a multiplier greater than modifier A.  This would be done to encourage people to attack structures instead of padding their killcounter while still rewarding a player for getting kills.  It will also reward human players for killing bigger aliens since bigger aliens have more hp and can take more damage.  Also, since points can be subtracted from the score and the modifier can be made large, it will discourage team damage, especially on structures.  Now, the reason I’m using letters for modifiers is well, I don’t know what they’re going to be.  I’d like to know what the tremulous community thinks before I pour lots of time into establishing these.  Although, I do know what kind of modifier E will be, it will be a power of 10.  The point being, the score displayed will be a number from -100 to 100 with 0 being the reference point.  Say player Z has a numerator equivalent to 100,000.  His score will be divided by 1000 and he will have 100 for a score.  E will not be different for each player.  This divider is determined by the player with the highest score.  If Z has 100,000 and Y only has 100, Z’s score will be 100 and Y’s will be 0.1.  Y’s contribution is relative to Z’s but it is still on an absolute scale. 

This explains how the first part of the score will be made, now for part two which includes what I intend to do with builders.

Well, to put it bluntly, trying to score building fucks up everything.  It is extremely difficult to make building comparable to a score that is ever inflating.  How do you award points for a good decon when you help in moving a base?  How do you even code that?  You can record time for ckit held or time granger, but just because you’re a granger or have a ckit doesn’t mean you’re doing anything.  Humans can repair restructures, grangers cannot.  Does that make the alien builder less deserving of a score?  What do you do about that guy that sucks at building; his putting up structures doesn’t solve anything?  What about someone who would just decon and build a turret all game?  These are all epically problematic and I’m not going to be the guy who solves that.  So the best I can offer our tremulous builders is just recognition on the scoreboard.  If you build the most structures (in the case of human, build/repair), you will get a B next to your score.  I am talking to people to find out if it’s possible to hide that B until the end of the match, you don’t want the opposing team to know who’s building after all.  Also, secondary builders will also be rewarded with a B if they did F% as much construction as the primary builder.  Once again, F is used because I do not know what to make this yet.  I’ll be the first to say, that’s not perfect, but tough shit.  At least builders will finally be recognized with something.  Also, for those who say “but Medic, why should I repair or build if it won’t show up on my score because I need F% for it to?”  Well, hopefully you’ll decide that repairing/building when necessary to save your team is worth picking up a ckit or being a granger for a minute or two. 

So, here’s an example:

Say that as a goon I kill 10 people and 3 turrets.  For now, assume every person and turret had full hp; also for right now, say that B is equal to 2 and A is equal to 1.  Which means that I'm saying killing structures is 2x more important than killing people, so my score would be 2,080.  This would be divided by 100 to give me a score of 20.8.  Say a teammate of mine killed 1 turret and 5 people.  He'd get 360 for the turret and 500 for the people which would equal 860.  Well, the divider is 100 so his score would be 8.6.  But, say this teammate decided to put up the Overmind and a few eggs and the rest of the base.  Well, he’ll get a score of 8.6B to show his efforts as a builder. 

A few notes for editing purposes if I did not cover or something is suggested: 
Note 1:  Score is separate for each team. 
Note 2:  If you need your killcount that desperately, mystats will show it to you.
Note 3:  Deaths being factored into the equation has been thought about and open todiscussion
Note 4:  This is feasible and there is a coder/code that can make this happen.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 05:48:12 am by Medic »

ShadowNinjaDudeMan

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2008, 08:20:11 am »
Indeed, this is feasible.
Very well written too, It seems fairly stable, and alas, the building is bloody compluicated.

If you had just too much time you could take a line of sight measurement of the turrets and work out how much of that % is not blocked by other buildings/walls/mapobjects.

Ex. Player builds 1 turret up against a corner of wall, roughly 75% line of sight lost.
Player builds turret in middle of large open room, turret retains 100% of vision
Another turret is built beside this turret, losing the original turret (say) 10% line of sight.
Now both turrets are at 90% LOS.

You could divide the percentage by 10 to give a score, or by 100, or you could  make a seperate column for "Builder Score".
The rest of the buildings I think should just be lump numbers, no matter where you put it. Keeps it simpler.
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Survivor

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2008, 04:07:14 pm »
Looks very reasonable. Would need some variable tweaking like you say but the idea behind it is simple and effective. Although rating building is, indeed, still fucked up.
You could give seperate score points per hp for healing buildings as a human although you'd have to make sure the variable is equal to or less than the structure friendly fire variable to prevent pointwhoring there. Structure placement is dependent on so much it's even harder to reward.
Which leaves the alien building which is in all actuality even worse since that's all a granger can do, build. Only thing I can think of is something involving the time bp >7 is within the main pool. So if there's a lot of bp in the pool for a long time a builder would get a lot of points for building structures, if there's little he would get little or none. Don't know if it's possible since this might also encourage some form of point whoring in leaving structures down but if you're a granger and there's bp available and you're not building for more than a minute start detracting points again?
Last thing to finetune is the relation between damage dealing over course of a match between two teams. I can entirely see the aliens doing a lot more damage than humans in the early stages while the humans get a lot more damage in late hs2 and all of hs3.
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cumesoft

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2008, 06:43:04 pm »
I'm looking forward to see this implemented. At least this will be a discouragement to kill whores and campers and will encourage team work. Trem is like DotA, so team play is very important. You should also consider the "friendly structures built" and "friendly structures repaired" variable for builders.

So, modifying Medic's equation a bit:
Score = {A*(damage to enemy players) + B*(damage to enemy structures) – C*(damage to friendly structures) – D*(damage to friendly players) + E*(friendly structures built - friendly structures removed) + F*(friendly structures repaired)}/G

Thus if you only relocate a structure you don't win points. Repairing structures by its turn will make those points permanent, and also accounts for some use that the structure has (strategic placed defenses are prone to have more damage, and thus are more prone to be replaced). If the structures are destroyed by anyone you don't loose any points. The "structures removed" variable refers to structures removed by you both using the kit or using a weapon.

Just one question. Will all those values appear on the scoreboard as well, or just the calculated score?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 07:07:59 pm by cumesoft »

Rocinante

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2008, 08:18:17 pm »
For ease of display, I would think only the calculated score would appear.  The rest would be available through /mystats in the console for each user interested in the breakdown, as it partially is now on servers running Lakitu's QVM.
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Paradox

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2008, 08:40:08 pm »
How about adding a new command.
/playerstats

Displays the new scoreboard. Noobs wouldn't bother with it, and experienced players would know how to use it.

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Matt2k10

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2008, 09:08:21 pm »
I concur with the idea of tracking who built what and how much damage it does.

Adding to cumesoft's equation:

Score = {A*(damage to enemy players) + B*(damage to enemy structures) – C*(damage to friendly structures) – D*(damage to friendly players) + E*(friendly structures built - friendly structures removed) + F*(friendly structures repaired) + G*(damage caused by structures built)}/H

Medic

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2008, 03:23:19 am »
The problem with the structure equation is that anyone that decons loses points and the guy who builds just gains according to that formula.  Also, just because you put a structure up does not mean it's effective.  Finally, if repairs are factored into score, it gives any human player's score a boost since a granger cannot repair structures.  Due to these issues, I left building out of the score and was hoping that a B for builder in the score would serve as a good reference for the builders. 

Does everyone hate the idea of just getting a "B" as a badge for building?

As far as damage dealt by a structure, I believe that would not be beneficial to the gameplay because then you can earn a score from camping, people will try to build forward bases on servers with regular bp, people will constantly take someone else's structure's down to put their own up, the data tracking will be harder, and we'll have a bias on what structures are built.  Garaunteed there will be more hives/acids and less trappers because trappers aren't doing damage.  It would be nice to get a dev's opinion on this topic as well, but I do not have any plans to factor damage done by buildings into the equation.

To answer the score desparity between humans and aliens, each score is recorded per team when the relative factor is applied. 

/Mystats is probably equivalent to what Paradox wants in /playerstats since /mystats shows, well, all of your stats.

mooseberry

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2008, 04:41:30 am »
My idea for the score, is that instead of dividing by a power of ten, maybe divide each players total points by their death or something, so that you can see an average points per life sort of thing.
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Matt2k10

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2008, 06:42:38 am »
The problem with the structure equation is that anyone that decons loses points and the guy who builds just gains according to that formula.  Also, just because you put a structure up does not mean it's effective.  Finally, if repairs are factored into score, it gives any human player's score a boost since a granger cannot repair structures.  Due to these issues, I left building out of the score and was hoping that a B for builder in the score would serve as a good reference for the builders.

I believe someone above mentioned having the game track the time between a decon and a build to see if it was a move(a maximum of 10 seconds between the decon and the place?). You could then add a build point to both people, and remove the decon point from the deconner.

As far as damage dealt by a structure, I believe that would not be beneficial to the gameplay because then you can earn a score from camping, people will try to build forward bases on servers with regular bp, people will constantly take someone else's structure's down to put their own up, the data tracking will be harder, and we'll have a bias on what structures are built.  Garaunteed there will be more hives/acids and less trappers because trappers aren't doing damage.  It would be nice to get a dev's opinion on this topic as well, but I do not have any plans to factor damage done by buildings into the equation.
True. I hadn't looked at it that way. I can't seem to think of a way out of that, except maybe tracking trapper hits and giving them a higher point multiplier than damage done by buildables built by that player. This should be fine since trappers that are placed correctly will hit humans more, and used with acid tubes/hives will create an even higher score than just using one or another. As for forward bases, they'll get eaten alive too quickly to gain very many points for the builder.

Yes, getting around these problems will require much more coding, but I believe it's worth it to create the most accurate point system.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 06:44:38 am by Matt2k10 »

Medic

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2008, 10:38:34 pm »
@Matt
If it's feasible to be coded (going to have to bother a coder) the decon/build of a structure could be added to the score and a modifier imposed.  I will conceed that to you.  The next part is where I need community feedback.  Here's a case study, I go painsaw the Overmind, Joe 1 back at the base decons the RC and Joe 2 puts it up.  Which action was worth the most points?  That's something that a dev or the community needs to weigh on in.  Balancing the modifier is fine, but determining worth to comparable actions is not for me decide.  Now to take it a step further, say I die from a dretch while the RC is deconed (yes, this has happened to me) so now I can't get another weapon and try to end the game because building is going on.  In this case, building is hurting the team despite being of later value to the team.  Next case study, we're on Tremor and a granger moves us to the basement or the wide open crate room.  The match ends in 5 minutes but the entire base get's moved.  You have builders with massive scores that just ruined the game for their team.  Building provides a lot of conditional statements that can't be assigned a numeric value.

As for your forward bases, the last thing I want is people building disposable shitty forward bases with feeder eggs or leaving less turrets at my base to make the RC even more hoppable than it already is.  Also, there's still the issue of builder fights to make structures to add to their score.  I really don't see building kills adding to a more accurate kill system.

I think for kicks, it would be funny to see how much damage structures do to people and apply that to the scoring system and give the buildings a score down at the bottom.  I'm sure the defense structures would have a higher score than a lot of people.

@Mooseberry
Kevlarman also has taken issue with the power of 10 issue and this was pointed out to me, every time someone gets a score of 100, everyone's score will be divided by 10.  I didn't really see this as a big issue, but I'd like to know what people think or if there is a better workaround for it. 
Factoring kills into the equation is something that has been suggested to me.  This is another issue where I would like dev or majority input.  I've always been of the philosophy that it's better to feed and fight than camp.  Also, sometimes you just have to sucide rush to break a base and deaths are inevitable.  By leaving deaths out of the equation, I'm trying to promote more of a merit based system (demerits should be applied to TKers which is why it's in the formula), but I worry that adding a - (modifier)*(deaths) or score/deaths would cause people to worry about dying too much and camping because they don't want a negative or a small score.  I also worry that new people are going to see a negative score, be like WTF after feeding and just leave.  But the topic is certainly up for debate.

mooseberry

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2008, 11:06:48 pm »
It is true what you said, but I think that a average points per death would show a more understandable, better information part. If you just divide it by a power of 10, than maybe one player on a team did really good, everyone else's score would look weird. If you divide by deaths however, you can: 1. Better determine individual accomplishments, by seeing your worth for that game, 2. Have a more "understandable" number, instead of saying "ok did I get this many points and was it divided by 100 or 1000, and what does that even mean really?" you get to see a representation of your skill, similar to kills per death, but with other factors involved.

Also, one thing I thought of, was that you would have to factor time in there, whether thats dividing by minutes, (which could actually discourage camping) or something else I don't know, but It doesn't seem fair for someone who has only been on for 5 mins to be compared to someone who played for 60 min.
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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2008, 01:51:17 am »
The problem with score per death is that it isn't a quick way to show one's worth to the team.  Everyone will have different deaths.  You get a guy with 1 death who jettards the whole round, his score could look good.  You get a guy that takes out an entire base but dies 10x and his score is terrible.  Also, if you turn a corner and a goon chomps you in one hit or if you get sprayed by a luci, you know you just did shitty and it's going to hit your score big time.  It's also utterly terrible for that guy that joins at S3 and get's nailed by a lucisuit or a rant a good number of times while he's trying to earn money.  You need an absolute scale to tell how well you are doing and what I'm presenting has both an absolute and a relative scale.  Someone's score should look "wierd" if player X takes out the opposing teams' base and murders people at a good rate, his score should be like 50.5 then useless camper Y's should look like 0.0039.  0.0039 compared to 50.5 is pretty understandable to anyone who knows how to use a >, a <, or an = sign.  You can always see kills/deaths and damage done to structures in the mystats function anyways to adjust your playing.  The score isn't about showing off how many kills/deaths you had, that's no better than the killcount being shown.  The score needs to be a quick way to show your team worth.  And you don't have to factor score into the formula I presented.  If you got in late and didn't take out much, well, you didn't impact the team so your score should be small.  In that regard, it's not so different from just kills but it is accurate.

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Re: Scoreboard Ideas
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2008, 08:16:31 pm »
To actually show how much has one helped his team, implement fractional kill counters. There should be a stored number of dealt damage for every player x player. A kill should be distributed evenly based on the damage that was dealt at the last time (neutral/world/building damage means noone gets cash/kills for that part; by the time someone heals up, his damage list will be cleared up).

That will be multiplied by the worthness of a killed class. Currently 1 evo = 175 cr = 1 kill. (When i say kill, i mean point.)
basic rifleman = 1 kill, 1 evo
human + 175cr equipment = 2 kills, 2 evos
human + 2*175cr equipment = 3 kills, 3 evos
dretch = 1 kill, 175cr
basi (worth +1 evo) = 2 kills, 2*175cr
marauder (worth +2 evos) = 3 kills, 3*175cr
etc.

On the other hand, one death should result in the negation of the same value, but not from the cash. So basically, a feeder will have a negative score, while one that helps his team will have a high positive value.

Questions... Maybe that should also be divided by the time. And what if there are players with only negative scores on one team, and new players join (with score 0)?

There are players who think that they are actually good, and rush the enemy base, damaging people and dying at the same time, and getting a lot of evos when the damages ones get killed, whilst receiving no negative score. Those players are actually not helping the team, but either helping the other team, or just making the game end faster. And then there are dudes that receive donations of evos/cash, get something big, and die repeatedly. The current score system doesn't correctly show what is actually going on.