Author Topic: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2  (Read 68070 times)

Lakitu7

  • Tremulous Developers
  • *
  • Posts: 1002
  • Turrets: +120/-73
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2008, 10:40:41 pm »
The people who spend their every effort in Tremulous creating things to combat this great and terrible plague of aimbotters do more harm than the actual aimbotters do. If they're REALLY good, we kick them. If they're not that good, then they're not that much of a problem. An aimbot that aims only as good as a moderately above average player may as well not be a botter: it's not disruptive. On the competitive scene, such an aimbot will just get its ass whooped, so it's not an issue there either. The biggest problem is when the paranoia and accusations fly far and you have a) admins kicking all the talented players for "aimbots" and b) players calling votekicks on all the talented players for "aimbots." The result is just noobs. I'll take a server full of 10 skilled players and 1 that may be botting over a server full of 10 noobs and no botters any day.

I have an equal number of aimbot bans that I've overturned because they were unfounded nonsense with no evidence than those I have created for actual aimbotting.



Aaaand on the previous topic: The game still needs people to grow. People who're new to the game can't tell the awful hax or mod qvm servers from those where Tremulous is actually played. That's not good for the game's playerbase to survive in the longterm. It's even worse if we have jokers releasing qvms full of hax that even idiots can install, and EVEN WORSE when they release those posing as something official.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 10:43:31 pm by Lakitu7 »

Prince_Andrei

  • Posts: 38
  • Turrets: +7/-18
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2008, 11:05:25 pm »
Actually, you are probably kicking old school players as aimbotters.

Wow, this is a mighty big assumption and more than just a little insulting. You post on the DS forum, so you should see how much discussion and evaluation goes into this type of thing. I routinely get kicked for botting on servers that just allow vote kicks for that type of thing, so I know firsthand how obnoxious that is. It isn't a badge of honor to get kicked by noobs. We require strong demo evidence posted on the website.

Lakitu7, you are contradicting yourself pretty severely. On the one hand you talk about how the game needs new people and how hacks discourage that. Then when you discuss aimbots you talk about the competitive scene. See the disconnect here? Nothing frustrates new players--especially when they've never done anything like dretching in an FPS--like some noob who can't dodge but knew how to install a bot. I agree that talented players rip apart aimbotters, but that is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 11:07:45 pm by Prince_Andrei »

Lakitu7

  • Tremulous Developers
  • *
  • Posts: 1002
  • Turrets: +120/-73
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2008, 11:18:46 pm »
New players can't tell who's a botter. Seasoned veterans can barely tell the borderline cases. The disconnect is because botters are not something that new players will be able to discern. If the botting problem were less overstated, the opinion among the noobs won't be that whoever is better than they are is automatically botting, as is frequently the case now. Some noobs will always think that, but those are the kind of idiots that can't be helped.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 11:20:44 pm by Lakitu7 »

Prince_Andrei

  • Posts: 38
  • Turrets: +7/-18
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2008, 11:40:33 pm »
New players can't tell who's a botter.

They may not even know what a botter is, leaving them just thinking that being a dretch is impossible, because everyone's aim is so good. My perspective might be a little different, because I come from a larger server that wants to be very newbie friendly. If you spend much time on DS, you'll notice that there are almost no aimbot accusations. Admins are private messaged, and they make careful decisions, often after demoing players and discussing it via the website. The old-school pros are almost all known, most having kick protection. This is probably getting this thread a little off topic.

tuple

  • Posts: 833
  • Turrets: +97/-80
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2008, 11:54:10 pm »
Wow, this is a mighty big assumption and more than just a little insulting.
Too bad, its mostly true.  We have more decon bans than all other bans combined.  I have access to logs containing IPs going back some time, so I know its true.  There are no DS forums, and the site is just this side of impossible to read as a result.  Blogified forums, ug.  I don't go there so much anymore for that reason.

It isn't a badge of honor to get kicked by noobs.
ug, quit taking things out of context.  "You may not recall, but it used to be a badge of honor to be kicked for botting before there were aimbots."  What that means is that even though there were no aimbots, you were sooooo good that people believed that you had an aimbot.  Newsflash, it STILL happens, only now there are aimbots and its annoying because of that.

Lakitu7, you are contradicting yourself pretty severely.
Actually, Lakitu7 isn't.  I've seen good players play against aimbots and win, consistently.  An aimbot makes a poor player seem ok, but not good enough to stand up to a great player.  And an aimbot won't tell you that you need to kill your opponents base, NOT get s3.  Thats also part of the reason that DS has kicked skilled players for aimbotting.  Don't tell me they haven't or that its an assumption.  I've had players that I know to be great join the server and say exactly that.  "I just got kicked from DS for botting."  Don't get your panties all in a bundle, "apologies Atom_Eve ;) " every server does it on occasion.  Check the PureTremulous forums and you'll see that I've kicked players for botting that, after looking at the demos again, decided that I was wrong.  But your complaint that it is happening all the time implies that you either are being targeted, are witch hunting, or are kicking good players, cause there are two servers that have more than a year and a half experience each (satgnu even longer!) that seem to dispute your claim.  SST is generally targeted AND bans you if you smell bad, so I tend to not count them in that respect  ;D

Really its a question of scale though.  A botter can get vote kicked, ruining maybe a match or twi.  If a player tells a good admin, the botter can be banned then, even blocked at the firewall.  A malicious admin can ruin tremulous for everyone that joins the server, ever.

What I think Lakitu7 means is that a never ending witch hunt for botters is more harmful than the botters themselves.  Don't believe me?  Look at their forums, they laugh about it.


Nothing frustrates new players--especially when they've never done anything like dretching in an FPS--like some noob who can't dodge but knew how to install a bot.
I used to play different servers all the time.  I'd pick a new name every time I started tremulous and go looking for matches.  I know whats more frustrating than realizing that some moron is using a bot.  Its being treated like shit by some napoleon who's never heard of you and wants to show to his friends and/or clanmates what a big dick he has with his admin powers.

That happened a hell of a lot more than I see botters nowadays.

I got lucky though.  I was a newb on a server where people helped.  Thats what we need, helpful players, not more powerful admins.

I might add that Lakitu7 and I are in MG.  MG specializes in unintentionally taking threads off topic!

Prince_Andrei

  • Posts: 38
  • Turrets: +7/-18
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2008, 12:19:02 am »
PureTrem is precisely the server that I have the worst problem getting kicked on. The vast majority of what you, Lakitu7, and I are saying is actually in agreement. What we don't agree on, apparently, is the relative dangers of cheating players vs. cheating admins.

Oh, and Tuple, the reason I wasn't a fan of this statement:
Quote
Actually, you are probably kicking old school players as aimbotters.
is because I took the word "you" to mean me specifically, as if I am your prototypical noob admin.

Lakitu7

  • Tremulous Developers
  • *
  • Posts: 1002
  • Turrets: +120/-73
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2008, 12:45:33 am »
Noobs will callvote on anyone with kills, sadly. And occaisionally mistakes by the admins do happen. We keep demos of anyone that we ban and and investigate them for anyone who complains politely (not those who fly off the handle and just swear exessively at us).

For what it's worth, you now have L2 / vote immunity on PT. We may not be in full lock-step agreement, but you're civil, above the average server talent curve, and you're no botter.

Lava Croft

  • Guest
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2008, 01:29:22 am »
@Tuple: About half our players we know, the other half are randon newbies.

It only takes a minute of spectating to find out if someone is using an aimbot. Sometimes the aimbotters are so thick you can even point them out without having to spectate them in first person. And really, you must either play on shitty servers, or not know what an aimbot is, because I regularly play on American and European servers, and rarely encounter aimbotters. The problem with aimbotters is not really the aimbotters themselves, it's the people who overreact to this phenomenon and blow it way out of proportion. If you think about aimbotters in every game of Tremulous you play, you will become paranoid enough to see aimbotters around every corner. Good way to ruin your fun.

tuple

  • Posts: 833
  • Turrets: +97/-80
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2008, 03:09:00 am »
is because I took the word "you" to mean me specifically, as if I am your prototypical noob admin.

Heh, sorry bout that.  I meant the general you, not the specific you.

Prince_Andrei

  • Posts: 38
  • Turrets: +7/-18
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2008, 03:18:45 pm »
No prob, Tuple. ;D And thanks Lakitu7--for the help on PT and for the interesting discussion.

benmachine

  • Posts: 915
  • Turrets: +99/-76
    • ben's machinery
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2008, 05:39:02 pm »
I remember one dude came onto a server trying to pedal his aimbot. Then we asked for a demonstration, he aim looked exactly like an aimbot, except it didn't hit stuff at all. Needless to say, don't bother getting an aimbot, they don't exactly have quality control regulations.
One day I'm gonna have to code a missbot :P
benmachine

techhead

  • Posts: 1496
  • Turrets: +77/-73
    • My (Virtually) Infinite Source of Knowledge (and Trivia)
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2008, 12:49:27 am »
By the way, I recently played with someone who, although not an aimbot, was pretty awesome with a mass-driver. Whenever I mentioned that I either was speccing him or that his skills were kinda suspicious, his skill-level dropped. After a while, we all figured out that I kept making him self-conscious. Every non-noob on the server had a couple of laughs about it.
I'm playing Tremulous on a Mac!
MGDev fan-club member
Techhead||TH
/"/""\"\
\"\""/"/
\\:.V.://
Copy and paste Granger into your signature!

FisherP

  • Posts: 295
  • Turrets: +31/-32
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #102 on: February 18, 2008, 01:27:55 am »
I'm sorry pple, I let you down, I didn't make it to the IRC it seemed like a very busy weekend. I will try again this week.

cyrri

  • Posts: 25
  • Turrets: +3/-1
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2008, 10:34:29 am »
Ender, did you get my PM? if not, please PM me your email address.

Rocinante

  • Posts: 642
  • Turrets: +252/-668
    • My Homepage
Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2008, 03:48:23 pm »
I'm sorry pple, I let you down, I didn't make it to the IRC it seemed like a very busy weekend. I will try again this week.

I've seen you hop on a couple times; it's good to see you're trying to gather information, however you might be going about it in a way that would be detrimental to the end goal.  Think about homework - if you have a page of math problems to finish, but you're in the middle of doing other things and your mother comes in to ask "Is your homework done yet?  What's left to do?  Why haven't you done it?  Let me see it.  This shouldn't take long, just do it now and be done with it"... well that's likely to make you resent your mother for the moment and not want to motivate you to drop what you're doing and get right on it :>

Now replace "other things" above with "real life", and "homework" with "something you do in your spare time because it's fun and you enjoy it".  Suddenly the mother in that scenario has no leg to stand on, because your world will continue to function (and there's no serious repercussions) if you don't do those math problems.

If you want to learn about what's going on, you've got the right start - hang out in the IRC channels.  But instead of the paparazzi method of pouncing on someone with 30 questions, be gentle.  If you can, lurk in the channel for longer periods of time (all the time if possible) as development discussions happen at random times with no defined start and stop.  Another thing which may work, though I can't speak for any of the developers, would be to write up a nice list of the questions you have and send it to them - if you want an "interview" style exchange, you're probably more likely to get it if the time allowed for the replies is more than "I'm here, I'm asking now, and I'm waiting for you to respond" as it gives the interviewee time to gather the response and think about the question.

Also note that none of this is a direct attack on anyone who's come into IRC thus far - just realize that simply because you're now there doesn't mean "Okay, dev talk is on now, everything else waits and answers will be forthcoming" (I've seen at least one person, not necessarily part of this thread, who had the idea that because they were there everything in the conversation needed to revolve around them immediately.  They failed.)
}MG{Mercenaries Guild
"On my ship, the Rocinante, wheeling through the galaxies, headed for the heart of Cygnus, headlong into mystery." -- Rush, "Cygnus X-1"

player1

  • Posts: 3062
  • Turrets: +527/-401
    • My Avatar! (if they were enabled) [by mietz]
Re: I'd like to say Thank You
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2008, 08:11:09 pm »
@Rocinante: I applaud your frank and useful attitude, sir. Plus-one'd. :)