Tyrant too pricey?

[BabyAlien]

I'm wondering if the price of a tyrant is not quite fair compared to human 'equivalents'.  Obviously people will disagree.  I have to point this out though...

Alien max evo = 9
Human max cred = 2000

Tyrant = 5 pts
Bsuit = 400 creds.
(this is a tough comparison because lucifer cannon isn't the only good weapon you can use here with bsuit, though it is 'most powerful')

Given that you are starting from a dretch, even if you have 100 kills under your belt, all you get are 9 evo points.. if you go tyrant then you *must* get 1 kill before you die or you can't do it again.  

On the other hand, there is something a human can do that aliens can't.  That is - take off your gear before doing a base run.  That way when / if you die you won't lose all your creds.  But, while you are in or near your base, you can easily retreat behind the wall of turrets and not worry about losing it all, so spend all your creds, load up with the big guns!

Just another reason it's hard (or impossible) to crack a human base when you have two good teams.

[Hydra]

i with ya,
i think that there should be at lest 20 for aliens and maybe 3000cr for humands?
also a better point system would be better, as humans get points for the damage they do, aliens.... well no matter if its stroung or week, 1 kill 1 point.

[Vector_Matt]

i with ya,
i think that there should be at lest 20 for aliens and maybe 3000cr for humands?

Please no, the last thing humans need is infinite tyrnats. A semi-decent tyrant can easily get enough evolve points to be tyrant again (if it ever dies in the first place that is [ :evil: Chase the freeking dying tyrants for crying out loud... Sorry me ranting.]) I think 20 is too much, mabey 15 or so would be better.

[Kipu]

Tyrant = 5 pts
Bsuit = 400 creds.
(this is a tough comparison because lucifer cannon isn't the only good weapon you can use here with bsuit, though it is 'most powerful')

But lucifer + battlesuit is pretty much only combo to take tyrant down on one on one. So i think that 400(battlesuit) + 600(lucifer) = half from 2000 is pretty balanced with tyrants 5 points from 9. But if lucifer cannon ammo speed would be faster(even just little) and that way you could realy aim, i guess you could raise alien points to 10.

But all in all, i think stage 3 is pretty balanced. Often you see both teams attacking. Stage 1 then again...  :cry:

[next_ghost]

But lucifer + battlesuit is pretty much only combo to take tyrant down on one on one. So i think that 400(battlesuit) + 600(lucifer) = half from 2000 is pretty balanced with tyrants 5 points from 9. But if lucifer cannon ammo speed would be faster(even just little) and that way you could realy aim, i guess you could raise alien points to 10.

But all in all, i think stage 3 is pretty balanced. Often you see both teams attacking. Stage 1 then again...  :cry:

Battlesuit + chaingun is better anti-tyrant combo IMO (400 + 400). Get close, keep behind him, use medkit when needed and tyrant is down. And if you meet a few dretches on the way, you can have it 3 times in a row. It doesn't work the other way around, you most likely won't meet completely unarmored human. And battlesuit with simple rifle can really make things ugly even for dragoons. The only thing that makes humans with rifles equal to dretches is the lack of armor and tiny size of dretch. Throw battlesuit in and you get advanced dragoon for the price of advanced basilisk. :roll:

The only thing that keeps Tremulous balanced is complete lack of accurate high-damage high-rate-of-fire instant-hit long-range weapon. Any single weapon having 4 out of these 5 properties would make humans insanely overpowered (just take a look at flame thrower - 4 out of 5, it's only short-ranged). The best weapons meet 3 out of 5 and that is too little for 41st century, isn't it? If it was up to me, I would choose WWII bazooka to fight aliens rather than lucifer cannon.

[Aziere]

Tyrant is way too cheap. You easily get the evolution points back.

But, both systems should be improved. Though I can see more pressing issues to fix instead.

[benplaut]

The only thing that keeps Tremulous balanced is complete lack of accurate high-damage high-rate-of-fire instant-hit long-range weapon. Any single weapon having 4 out of these 5 properties would make humans insanely overpowered (just take a look at flame thrower - 4 out of 5, it's only short-ranged). The best weapons meet 3 out of 5 and that is too little for 41st century, isn't it? If it was up to me, I would choose WWII bazooka to fight aliens rather than lucifer cannon.

ya know... lasgun is underrated.  It fits all of those except high-damage, which completely depends on your aim.

it's just misunderstood  :roll:

[Neo]

nah, lasgun has a pretty low rate of fire even the luci alt fire has a higher rate of fire.

[Vector_Matt]

nah, lasgun has a pretty low rate of fire even the luci alt fire has a higher rate of fire.

What game have you been playing, the lasgun fires about 3-4 shots a second, the luci's secondary weapon fires 1-2 times a second.

[next_ghost]

Lasgun is nice weapon but lacks both strength and speed. This is potential damage of all human weapons:
Blaster: 9hp (damage per shot), 0.6s (charge time) = 15hp/s (damage per second)
Rifle: 5hp, 0.09s = 55.56hp/s
Painsaw: 15hp, 0.075s = 200hp/s
Shotgun: 7hp x8, 1s = 56hp/s
Lasgun: 9hp, 0.2s = 45hp/s
Mass driver: 38hp, 1s = 38hp/s
Chaingun: 6hp, 0.08s = 75hp/s
Pulse rifle: 9hp, 0.1s = 90hp/s
Flame thrower: 20hp, 0.2s = 100hp/s
Lucifer cannon (secondary): 27hp, 0.5s = 54hp/s
Lucifer cannon (primary, full charge): 265hp, 3s = 88.33hp/s

[Neo]

Just wondering how you got the stats for the weapons?

As it might be an idea to form somekind of strategy guide for trem.

[next_ghost]

Just wondering how you got the stats for the weapons?

As it might be an idea to form somekind of strategy guide for trem.

tremulous-1.1.0-src/src/game/tremulous.h + simple maths.

[Liszasabi]

I guess that aliens rly needs only like humans points for damage, beacouse when everyone got campersuit, ops battlesuit its impossible to get even 1 evo point. And yes for me battlesuit is way too cheap its easier to kill 2 dretches for b.suit than 5 humans for tyrant

[Neo]

does depend entirely on how you play a tyrant though, which can kill a bsuit in 4 or so hits, just you need to pick off stragglers.

[Henners]

3 hits to kill a Bsuit, from an advanced goon or a tyrant. Its perfectly doable no matter what weapon they have. A group of 3 with chainguns however....

[Krazplay]

Tyran cannot evade cause they can't really jump and they are huge, they can be easily killed by a battlesuit + lucifer.
Alien should have max 10 points, and not 9, there's a huge difference between a adv dragoon and a tyran, and when human are S3, they have far enough weapons to fight all the aliens, the fact is that he seems for me that more skilled players play as aliens, that's why the two races are balanced are balanced... ^^'

[kozak6]

Secondary fire for the Lucifer?

Could someone elaborate?

I must admit, I'm not familiar with it.

What is it?  How do I activate it?  Could I have messed it up by trying to rebind some keys?

Could it be added to the manual, along with a quick note that the Mass Driver actually has a scope?  Took me long enough to get that straightened out.

[kozak6]

Well goddamn.  It's right click.

All that time I never even knew it was there.  I really feel stupid.

[next_ghost]

does depend entirely on how you play a tyrant though, which can kill a bsuit in 4 or so hits, just you need to pick off stragglers.

Stragglers cease to exist once aliens start camping just outside human turret range.

Alien should have max 10 points, and not 9, there's a huge difference between a adv dragoon and a tyran, and when human are S3, they have far enough weapons to fight all the aliens, the fact is that he seems for me that more skilled players play as aliens, that's why the two races are balanced are balanced... ^^'

Right now, humans can have equivalent of 11 evo points (2000 / 175 = 11.43)

[BabyAlien]

Right now, humans can have equivalent of 11 evo points (2000 / 175 = 11.43)

It probably depends on how you count it..
A HUGE upgrade for a human is Helmet+Armor = 160.
 (2000 / 160) = 12.5

Of course that's S2 only, but aliens don't get any equivalent benefit out of S2.  Maybe an advance dretch worth 1 point on S2 would make it more viable for a dretch to go up against a human with Helmet+Armor.

Right now, as I see it, if you loose your evo points on S3, there is no upgrade that makes it viable to try and go out and get some kills.  1 point gives you a basilisk.  That's the equivalent of 222 creds and it's totally useless.  Give me a dretch with 75 hp and I'll take that instead.