Segmented alien models

[benmachine]

Currently, the human player models are 'segmented' - in models/players/human_base there is lower.md3, upper.md3, and head.md3. They move and animate independently. This allows, for example, a human to fire while running forwards, to reload while jumping, and to look around while doing all of these things.
The alien models, on the other hand, are non-segmented. The entire body has an attack animation, jump animation, gesture, and only one of these can occur at once. This looks a little silly when, for example, you hold down your gesture key as a dragoon and move around at the same time.

What I'm suggesting is a skilled modeller (or maybe an unskilled one, I'm not sure how hard this will be) takes on the project of separating the legs, head, and body, or whatever seems appropriate, of the alien models and thus allowing them to undergo several simultaneous animations in separate body parts.

[Taiyo.uk]

Interesting idea, but the segmentation may be difficault since all aliens except for the tyrant lack the distinct head/torso/legs sections. It may be the case that all of the legs need to be separated to allow an alien to run while taunting. Still, the segmentation will be the (relatively) easy part, but the new animations may require significant work unless the current animations can be re-used.

On a side-note, how much work would integrating a skeletal animation system involve? Are there any other Q3 based engines that have done this?

[pharo212]

The dretch and granger do..

[techhead]

Tyrants look silly when jumping sideways.
Very, very, silly. Even more so when taunting.
Use /devmap and /cg_thirdperson to have a look.

[doomagent13]

Do any of the md* formats support skeletal animation?  Cause it shouldnt be too hard to add support for, say, md5...

[Redman]

Nice idea. I (maybe, because i'm not professional modeler) know how to make it easy. If that's possible delete not needed faces (like torso and head when making legs) without deleting animations, but optimalize it to each alien class model part. I think it can work.

[Odin]

Do any of the md* formats support skeletal animation?  Cause it shouldnt be too hard to add support for, say, md5...

I think MD4 has skeletal anim support, though there is no wikipedia article on it. ioQuake3 has (deactivated) MD4 support.

[blood2.0]

does anyone really care? i don't but maybe to fix it make it so you can't move when pressing f

[whitebear]

And you can't suggest anything more stupid blood2.0?

[doomagent13]

Trem can use md4 s. (I think)  The code is there to do so, anyway...

[OverFlow]

The alien models are not segmented because so many of the classes use their appendages for both attacking and running around.  Even with a skeletal model system its a very non-trivial task to make those work is a nice, proper looking way.

I agree many of the animations don't look very good, especially when running around and attacking/taunting, etc... And the tyrant animations are pretty much horrible in any way you look at them.  But hey, its one of the first animations I ever did..

On that note, yes, the tyrant would be a prime candidate for segmented animation because of the design and horribleness of the original animations.  The dragoon and granger could probably have a segmented head (actually, the granger head is already separate), but that wouldn't make it look too much better.  Most the classes would need a complete redesign with segmentation in mind to make it work.

(The dretch might be good too... Maybe I'll have to actually try that one...)

[==Troy==]

taunting basilisk is a similar case.

On the other note, separating the models might allow to implement a properly made oriented-hitboxes. Those were done for Q3 engine, but in closed-source projects.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

mobile phoning basi is cool ;-)))

[==Troy==]

mobile phoning basi is cool ;-)))

Id rather say he tries to sniff his underarm (under claw)

[benmachine]

On the other note, separating the models might allow to implement a properly made oriented-hitboxes. Those were done for Q3 engine, but in closed-source projects.

Hitboxes pretty much ignore the models. The two systems (renderer and game logic) aren't really interested in one another.
There are other obstacles to more complex hitboxes (mainly performance).

OverFlow: yeah I see what you mean (hi btw)
I still think some of the models could be segmented in a limited manner at least - tyrant, goon being the prime options. Trouble being, who's gonna do it?

[jal]

What I'm suggesting is a skilled modeller (or maybe an unskilled one, I'm not sure how hard this will be) takes on the project of separating the legs, head, and body, or whatever seems appropriate, of the alien models and thus allowing them to undergo several simultaneous animations in separate body parts.

Another related thing I sometimes thought could be done is Alien's view weapons. I think it'd look very cool to see the goon legs at the sides of the screen when walking or the Tyrant... ehm... arm? when attacking.

[pharo212]

That is being worked on by the dev's; see my thread Alien Attacks

[doomagent13]

(The dretch might be good too... Maybe I'll have to actually try that one...)

The dretch needs animations period...  Or maybe its just me...  I dunno, doesnt the dretch not have any animations?

[Taiyo.uk]

They do have animations, try running around in third person view. I think the only missing animation is the granger taunt.

[Zero Ame]

personally i think the whole idea of segmenting is a horrible idea. Any other game you play the player models are not segmented and alows for better modding of the game as you can make a player model that replaces the games original model. Yes you could do this for trem but is generally harder in a modelers eyes considering instead of making 1 player model they have to make two seperate models.

Plus segemnted models look bad in-game. If you looked at a naked human as he stared at the gound his entire torso is horizontal while the legs are vertical and you can actually see a flat surface between the players legs and toroso's, thus hidering the game from being realistic at all.

[Taiyo.uk]

Indeed. There are several approaches to improving the model/animation system. DOOM3 has separate head/body models in some cases, but these are anchored via a vertex set instead of a single point which makes the characters animate much more naturally. Alternatively a full skeletal animation system could be used. Either way, this will require a full overhaul of the animation system and the models/animations themselves. That is, unfortunately, an enormous task.

It is entirely possible to use a non-segmented human model with the current system - see the character animation in Nexuiz for an idea of what this could look like. The problem then becomes that the humans will have the single-animation issues that the aliens have (taunting animation while running, no mouselook head/body movement, etc.).

[Kaleo]

Wasn't somthing like this done with UrbanTerror to give a higher polycount?

[Zero Ame]

well yea it would increase the poly count, but mostly because it wouldnt be 3 seperate models, it would be 1 whole model

[pharo212]

personally i think the whole idea of segmenting is a horrible idea. Any other game you play the player models are not segmented and alows for better modding of the game as you can make a player model that replaces the games original model. Yes you could do this for trem but is generally harder in a modelers eyes considering instead of making 1 player model they have to make two seperate models.

Plus segemnted models look bad in-game. If you looked at a naked human as he stared at the gound his entire torso is horizontal while the legs are vertical and you can actually see a flat surface between the players legs and toroso's, thus hidering the game from being realistic at all.

Consider OpenArena. New models are submitted all the time, yet it has segmented one's. The game has no dev team, except for one person. A roadmap is set up, content is made, and thats combined into the current game to make a new release. So no, I doubt that segmenting makes modeling impossible.

Also, for the appearance problems, its better than shooting the ceiling while aiming at the wall.

[Odin]

it would be much better to just use md4(which ioquake3 has support for) and use skeletons for animation.

[Zero Ame]

personally i think the whole idea of segmenting is a horrible idea. Any other game you play the player models are not segmented and alows for better modding of the game as you can make a player model that replaces the games original model. Yes you could do this for trem but is generally harder in a modelers eyes considering instead of making 1 player model they have to make two seperate models.

Plus segemnted models look bad in-game. If you looked at a naked human as he stared at the gound his entire torso is horizontal while the legs are vertical and you can actually see a flat surface between the players legs and toroso's, thus hidering the game from being realistic at all.

Consider OpenArena. New models are submitted all the time, yet it has segmented one's. The game has no dev team, except for one person. A roadmap is set up, content is made, and thats combined into the current game to make a new release. So no, I doubt that segmenting makes modeling impossible.

Also, for the appearance problems, its better than shooting the ceiling while aiming at the wall.

Where in there did i say it made it impossible? I said it makes it harder to do. Maybe you should read more carefully.

it would be much better to just use md4(which ioquake3 has support for) and use skeletons for animation.

Skeletons are used for animation any on all model types. useing a md4 model type wont really change anything towards the game.

[Taiyo.uk]

MD3 does not use skeletal animation. MD3 animations are frame based and stored within the MD3 files themselves. This is where the inflexibility arises - you can only playback pre-recorded animations.

In many skeletal animation systems the model file only contains the model data (geometry, bones, etc) while the animations are stored elsewhere or even generated or mixed/modified in real time.

On a side-note, did the Q3 MD4 implementation ever get completed? What about export tools et al?

[Lava Croft]

I think ioQuake3 got support for MDR models thanks to Elite Force, and the MDR format is a derative/equivalent/related to the MD4 format.

[nekronuke]

OFF-TOPIC i was reading along and noticed 3rd person view.. can i ask how to do that without getting yelled at?

[player1]

Hi nekronuke:

u r living up 2 ur name j/k

In Tremulous, 3rd person is considered somewhat of a cheat. Unless you are talking about doing things with the spectator view.

OK, check it out. Here on the Tremulous forums, people will usually ask you to utilize the SEARCH feature. I put it in all caps becuz it's linked, not to be mean. It works really great. I searched "3rd person" and got all kinds of threads. Lots of people have been discussing spec view recently. And a few people have even asked about player view 3rd person lately, too.

Click on the link, and enjoy.

A word of advice, if I may: Like you said, you risk the probabilty of getting flamed for necroing a topic and asking an off-topic question. Search, then post a fresh topic asking a well-expressed question, to achieve the best result.

Cheers! And again, welcome to you and your LAN-mates. Enjoy.