Author Topic: Request: Remove stages  (Read 14249 times)

Aziere

  • Posts: 36
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« on: May 26, 2006, 11:34:08 pm »
I'm not gonna put up anything to discuss or argue on. I just feel it doesn't suit the game. But it's the developers' decision, and they understand why I dislike it, therefor I will leave it to them.

But, it can't hurt to ask. So I ask of you: Will you please remove the stage-system from Tremulous?

SLAVE|Mietz

  • Posts: 672
  • Turrets: +2/-0
    • http://blasted.tremulous.info
Re: Request: Remove stages
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 12:03:55 am »
Quote from: "Aziere"
I'm not gonna put up anything to discuss or argue on. I just feel it doesn't suit the game. But it's the developers' decision, and they understand why I dislike it, therefor I will leave it to them.

But, it can't hurt to ask. So I ask of you: Will you please remove the stage-system from Tremulous?


Just ANY reason why?

Aziere

  • Posts: 36
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2006, 12:51:31 am »
I'll state it vaguely then.
I believe it limits the gameplay to an unneeded depth, which takes away simplicity.

BabyAlien

  • Posts: 58
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2006, 02:06:59 am »
In this case your simplicity means your message lacks needed depth.

My 2¢ though is that I would like to see the option to have stages turned off and play that way.  I wouldn't be surprised if removing the levels would quickly overcome some of the problems with the game.  At the very least game lengths wouldn't be artificially extended.

I once played a game where a dretch got into our human base and got 15 kills in the first couple minutes, having evolved into a 'goon after a couple kills.  The humans were vastly outclassed.  The map was Karith.  Still, the game went on and on and on and they didn't come in and finish us off.  I could tell they were waiting for S3.  So I started running out and feeding them as quick as possible.  Finally they got S3 and finished the round.  I would have preferred if they could have just finished it ten minutes before that.  It was a waste of time.
ah, that wasn't a tyrant you killed, it was just a baby tyrant.

Kipu

  • Posts: 7
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2006, 02:20:21 am »
I agree with the OP, kinda.

Remove stage system or at least do something to stage 1. My reasons:

-Aliens are bored because humans mostly just camp and wait stage 2.
-Humans need to camp because it isnt smart to buy items with all your money and go out, get headshot killed instantly from smallest alien or just notice dragoon too late when it was waiting to jump on you and one hit kill you.
-With any intelligence used, humans can build defence that aliens cant penetrate in stage 1 and usually even stage 2. So its just harvesting kills and waiting stage 3. And that can be boring if humans dont listen the crying about camping what aliens all the time do, but use wisely base defence to kill bored aliens that wanna try theyre luck.
-Anytime played game where aliens camp around human base/feed humans until humans are in stage 3 and launch theyre attack? After that the game can begin.

Stage 1 is way too boring. I usually just spend time by building or watch TV while i wait to get dragoon. Mayby even fight agains humans that have come out of theyre base, but rarely. If i camp and just wait humans to open that door, it will be realy easy kills. But as humans rarely exit theyre base, i attack and die on turrets, like others. Just to spend time while waiting later stages. And when i mean "out of theyre base", i mean realy out, not just in front of theyre turrets, what is the smart way. At least if you wanna max your kills against your deaths.

kozak6

  • Posts: 1089
  • Turrets: +20/-26
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2006, 02:33:12 am »
Sounds like this would make an extremely interesting mod.

I know I'd try it.

tjw

  • Posts: 210
  • Turrets: +10/-0
already possible
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2006, 03:37:38 am »
You could take away stages by setting g_alienStage and g_humanStage to 2 in your server config.  This would start both teams at Stage 3.

Catalyc

  • Posts: 214
  • Turrets: +2/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2006, 04:12:25 am »
Only reason for humans to stage up is to get a helmet, so they can keep using helmet+larmour+shotgun (2 of which are available in s1)

Aliens just need Adv. Marauder, but Dragoons and Marauders do the job meanwhile.
ttp://tremmapping.pbwiki.com/

Teiman

  • Posts: 286
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2006, 11:11:52 am »
Quote from: "Kipu"
I agree with the OP, kinda.


I disagree, totally.

Anyone play a RTS?.. imagine the first map with ALL technology tree. And all next maps with all the tech tree. No new stuff as you win maps.

S1 able to do basemoves. Base enhancements and even rush. =needed stuff.

Theres fun stuff, and stuff that able fun stuff. S1 and S2 are "abling thing", because are not that fun, but enable lotsa fun. And thats how strategic games work.

Also, is a different gameplay if you are S2, and the other team is S1, this unbalance is fun and... that, a different game. If everyone is S3, theres only 1 game: battlesuits vs tyrants.

a  _ h
S3 vs S3
1 gameplay.

a  _ h
S1 vs S1
S1 vs S2
S2 vs S1
S1 vs S3
S3 vs S2
S2 vs S3
S3 vs S2
S2 vs S3
S3 vs S3
9 gameplays

Removing Stages mean removing 8 different gameplays feels from the game.

SLAVE|Mietz

  • Posts: 672
  • Turrets: +2/-0
    • http://blasted.tremulous.info
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2006, 11:22:22 am »
Quote from: "Teiman"
Quote from: "Kipu"
I agree with the OP, kinda.


I disagree, totally.

Anyone play a RTS?.. imagine the first map with ALL technology tree. And all next maps with all the tech tree. No new stuff as you win maps.

S1 able to do basemoves. Base enhancements and even rush. =needed stuff.

Theres fun stuff, and stuff that able fun stuff. S1 and S2 are "abling thing", because are not that fun, but enable lotsa fun. And thats how strategic games work.

Also, is a different gameplay if you are S2, and the other team is S1, this unbalance is fun and... that, a different game. If everyone is S3, theres only 1 game: battlesuits vs tyrants.

a  _ h
S3 vs S3
1 gameplay.

a  _ h
S1 vs S1
S1 vs S2
S2 vs S1
S1 vs S3
S3 vs S2
S2 vs S3
S3 vs S2
S2 vs S3
S3 vs S3
9 gameplays

Removing Stages mean removing 8 different gameplays feels from the game.


totally agree, if you remove stages, I don't want to play this game anymore.

Survivor

  • Posts: 1660
  • Turrets: +164/-159
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2006, 12:41:44 pm »
Quote from: "Teiman"
Quote from: "Kipu"
I agree with the OP, kinda.


I disagree, totally.

Anyone play a RTS?.. imagine the first map with ALL technology tree. And all next maps with all the tech tree. No new stuff as you win maps.

S1 able to do basemoves. Base enhancements and even rush. =needed stuff.

Theres fun stuff, and stuff that able fun stuff. S1 and S2 are "abling thing", because are not that fun, but enable lotsa fun. And thats how strategic games work.

Also, is a different gameplay if you are S2, and the other team is S1, this unbalance is fun and... that, a different game. If everyone is S3, theres only 1 game: battlesuits vs tyrants.

a  _ h
S3 vs S3
1 gameplay.

a  _ h
S1 vs S1
S1 vs S2
S2 vs S1
S1 vs S3
S3 vs S2
S2 vs S3
S3 vs S2
S2 vs S3
S3 vs S3
9 gameplays

Removing Stages mean removing 8 different gameplays feels from the game.


Completely stand behind this
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

Vector_Matt

  • Posts: 732
  • Turrets: +2/-1
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2006, 02:41:07 pm »
Quote from: "SLAVE|Mietz"
totally agree, if you remove stages, I don't want to play this game anymore.
Ditto for me.

No stages = aliens hide for 10 miniutes and then rush out as tyrants = humans doomed.

Survivor

  • Posts: 1660
  • Turrets: +164/-159
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2006, 04:06:37 pm »
Not only that, both teams will just wait untill they have the creds for the 'superior' combo and then one team gets the upper hand since they won the first round of combat and ruins the other team. In the start basekilling is hard and becomes gradually easier for both teams. Thus the game itself becomes harder.
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

werepants

  • Posts: 69
  • Turrets: +0/-0
    • http://www.nine18design.com
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2006, 05:40:32 pm »
sounds to me like an ok mod.  it would work when I want to get my "quick fix" of just combat.  it would be terrible to implement this in the main game though.  I think this is more of a call to map designers.  We need more variety in scenarios to appeal to a wider user base.  

Specifically we need -
1. A slow-start strategy map(no rush),
2. A combat centered map style(this, or even just a deathmatch variety or something... like iceworld in cs compared to dust) and then
3. Some objective based maps, with goals to take and hold an area, or some kind of uphill battle(anybody play avanti on TFC?).  

I think this variety in maps would satisfy a lot of people without corrupting the game.

BabyAlien

  • Posts: 58
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2006, 11:57:19 pm »
Yes, there are a lot of elements that would get lost by taking away stages.  For one, no human in their right mind would leave the base without waiting long enough to get some creds for a helmet.  

Then no one would experience the fun of headjumping as a dretch on S1.
ah, that wasn't a tyrant you killed, it was just a baby tyrant.

Aziere

  • Posts: 36
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2006, 01:04:55 am »
Silly people. Why is everyone so freaking narrow minded. If you remove something, you OBVIOUSLY need to rework something else. It's the nature of everything.

If you remove stages, you could remove earning credits from waiting. Simple solution. Now you MUST kill to get credits / evolve points. Which means camping is totally useless.

Think again.

BabyAlien

  • Posts: 58
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2006, 02:37:47 am »
Quote from: "Aziere"
Silly people. Why is everyone so freaking narrow minded. If you remove something, you OBVIOUSLY need to rework something else. It's the nature of everything.


Hmm, your use of logic is flawed.  While it is generally true that removing something means reworking something else, it doesn't follow as a logical necessity, especially since you have chosen to apply this statement to "everything".

For example, removing the derision from your last post would improve the whole thing without anything else needing to be reworked.

Quote from: "Aziere"

If you remove stages, you could remove earning credits from waiting. Simple solution. Now you MUST kill to get credits / evolve points. Which means camping is totally useless.

Think again.


You criticize others as being narrowminded and then suggest that one change will fix all of the balance issues that will (your words) OBVIOUSLY need to be reworked.

Now, if I say nothing more, it will surely be better than the slew of commentary I would certainly come up with, however amusing it might be.
ah, that wasn't a tyrant you killed, it was just a baby tyrant.

Aziere

  • Posts: 36
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2006, 03:43:27 am »
And what has criticizing me have to do with anything? I criticize others because they're not helping at all. And you criticize me for... telling the truth?

Get a clue.

benplaut

  • Posts: 195
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2006, 05:22:34 am »
something that would be very interesting is some way that one team can't go to s3 if the other is still at s1... it wouldn't make a difference in most games, but would help a bit in ones that are already unbalanced.
img]http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5443/5863101266io.gif[/img]
}MG{benplaut

Ksempac

  • Posts: 261
  • Turrets: +1/-1
    • http://www.ksempac.info/blog
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2006, 12:37:26 am »
Stages is what makes Tremulous an original game :

- Do you see yourself moving the base if they were Tyrants in the first minutes of the game ? (that wouldn t be impossible : there is often a dragoon that mass kill the humans in the first minutes of the game). Jetpacks could help you in some really specific locations but most of the time you wouldn t be able to move out of your base with a CK.
- Stages makes people work together : a good killer cant destroy an entire base alone until he gets the best equipement (or the best evolution). So a good killer still needs to talk to the other members of his team to build the base and give them some advice. In many others games with "teamplay" (like CTF) if there is a player that outclass all the others ones he often plays alone (it often ends up with something like "stfu noob, and dont move : defend our flag, i m gonna get the ennemy flag")
- Stages system allows different types of gameplay during the same game. In S1 we see light weapons against dretches and marauder while in S3 its more like pulse rifle/lucifer against Adv Goons and Tyrants.

Quote
something that would be very interesting is some way that one team can't go to s3 if the other is still at s1... it wouldn't make a difference in most games, but would help a bit in ones that are already unbalanced.


First i would say that Aliens often end up in this kind of situation (because the dretches feeded humans too much) but manage to win anyways. Second if it s really a balance problem its better to end the game fast and then change teams on the next map. Its no use to play a map where everybody is bored (poor players are sick of dying and good players are sick of having no challenge)
url=http://tremulous.net][/url]

Liszasabi

  • Posts: 12
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2006, 07:51:28 pm »
I dont like to remove stages. It is the diffrence beetwen Q3 and Tremulous and yes, some dretches gain points rly fast, aliens will be very overpowered, 50%+ tyrants in 10 mins
img]http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2578/4696317170gl.gif[/img]

AzraelUK

  • Posts: 15
  • Turrets: +0/-0
More points/credits needed?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2006, 09:52:47 pm »
Getting rid of stages would be good, but you would need to make the higher end things more pricey, eg. Tyrant should be 9 points.
quote="Aziere"]Azrael is the only one who ain't an idiot it seems. [/quote]

graig

  • Posts: 5
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2006, 02:51:36 am »
i like it the way it is, stages are nice.  you don't want one person to be able to end the game so quickly.  i mean, before you know it, there will be a guy in a battle suit, and a tyrant running around in the first 3 minutes of gameplay.  that would be retarded.

Aziere

  • Posts: 36
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2006, 11:33:31 am »
Azrael is the only one who ain't an idiot it seems. Neurotypicals seriously need to learn how to chain thoughts. Removing stages and increase the costs is a good way, and you would also need to remove idle gain of credits/evo to make it playable.

Stages do have some good points. When you gain a new stage, the whole team gains power, which means its easier for a comeback. But, IMO, that's just a waste of time. A better team will win most likely anyways, and even a comeback at the best opportunity probably won't gain the other team a victory.

My way, removing stages that is, gives more emphasis on the players themselves. What that means is that just like in other games, a good player is a good player, no matter what the team does. Like in Quake 3 CTF, a good player can singlehandedly win all the time. While it's unlikely, it happens.

I guess most would consider that bad, well, I do too in a way. But going with a team direction, you will be dragged down to the others level. Do I think it's fun that my team loses just because we got a few feeders, even when we got the otherwise best players? Obviously not.

Then you can ask why I just don't play with people on my own level. I would, and do if possible. Though you can't blame possibility on a game really, the game shouldn't be created to discourage it, as it limits the game too much.

So to have a team with about 7/10 in skill (i.e: 70% teams are worse, and 30% teams are better), the whole team need to be around that level. A player at 8/10 would limit his potential, and a player with 6/10 is just dragging it all down too much.

What happens is: You end up playing with the same people all the time, because you ain't accepted anywhere else.

Without so much emphasis on teams, players could prove their own worth, independent of the team. While if a team had 1/10 value players, they would be totally worthless really. But a single person with 10/10 could easily bring the whole teams value up to 4/10 or so. Just because he's skilled.

I wonder what the developers want. Like it is right now, or how it is in other games, like Counter-Strike, where a good player can singlehandedly lead a team to victory.

I prefer the latter. I want to play with my friends and such, even if we're all at different skill levels. Then I can do my best, and they can do their best. If we win, it depends on the players, not on the team itself. While the teamplay certainly has its aspect as well in the win, it's much less emphasized.

I believe stages just puts a barrier for everyone.


[Slightly less opinionized, and more likely a better read: This isn't something that needs to be prioritized. The endless camping, dragging games to an obscene amount of time even if there is a clear winner etc... that needs to be resolved first.]

*Haven't spellchecked, and I don't care to do it either. Blame yourself if you don't understand something*

Stof

  • Posts: 1343
  • Turrets: +1/-1
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2006, 12:19:35 pm »
I'm still looking for a mod which uses W:ET XP system for tech unlocking instead of stages and money :) Too bad I really haven't got the time to work on i myself though
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

DeathWish[BE]

  • Posts: 10
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Re: Request: Remove stages
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2006, 12:25:35 pm »
Quote from: "Tremulous About page"
Tremulous is a free, open source game that blends a team based FPS with elements of an RTS.

Take away the elements of an RTS, and it won't be Tremulous
Take away the team based FPS and it won't be a Tremulous
Maybe you're looking for an other game? :P

Ksempac

  • Posts: 261
  • Turrets: +1/-1
    • http://www.ksempac.info/blog
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2006, 12:50:30 pm »
Quote from: "Aziere"
Like in Quake 3

Quote
like Counter-Strike


Tremulous isn t Q3 or CS and it is what makes it fun to play..if you miss theses games go play them... :roll:

Quote
I want to play with my friends and such, even if we're all at different skill levels. Then I can do my best, and they can do their best.


I dont think a game where 9 guys knows that despite all their work it is the 10th guy who will ultimately decide the issue of the game all by himself is a good way to "play with your friends"... -_-

On the other hand, Tremulous allows people to be useful to the team, regardless of their killing skill.
url=http://tremulous.net][/url]

BabyAlien

  • Posts: 58
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2006, 04:45:33 pm »
Quote from: "Aziere"
I guess most would consider that bad, well, I do too in a way. But going with a team direction, you will be dragged down to the others level. Do I think it's fun that my team loses just because we got a few feeders, even when we got the otherwise best players? Obviously not.


It sounds like you aren't a team player.  You can't be a team unless you share rewards and consequences.  Thats the definition of a team.  Good players find ways to make the team succeed together.  What you're really trying to do here is put an 'I' into 'team', but everybody knows... <drumroll>
Oh you know.


Now I will concede this point:
I think it would be a very good idea to have a deathmatch mod for trem.  Basically, there are no objectives except killing other players.  That would be the place to go when you want to practice your skills but don't want to get involved in a match.

I would love to practice using the marauder but often end up switching to the tried and true goon because I want to be more effective for the team.
[/quote]
ah, that wasn't a tyrant you killed, it was just a baby tyrant.

Survivor

  • Posts: 1660
  • Turrets: +164/-159
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2006, 05:38:26 pm »
Aziere, what I think is happening is not your team consisting of bad players but you wanting to move too fast for them. Excellent players can already own a game but if the pace is too high then their base is too weak to support them.
I've seen games end often enough because suddenly a good player switched from defensive (allowing your team to catch up and reinforce) to offense and win just because he knows that other good players do the same. They all know that the game is over if you no longer have spawns so they first acertain that they have those and they are safe and then they move out to deal the heavy blows to the opponent.
You want a deathmatch mod like babyalien said.
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

Aziere

  • Posts: 36
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Request: Remove stages
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2006, 07:27:04 am »
No, I want to remove quantity over quality. And you're right that I'm not a teamplayer. Though I do like teamgames, I prefer doing my own thing.

In Tremulous, that doesn't exist. In a 10vs10 game, if a couple of my teammates and I go attack the base, we wont accomplish anything. While getting there is easy, getting through the massive amount of campers is near impossible.

And how you win... is just to charge with everything you got. (Though the game usually turns too choppy for me then :/) And if just one person decides not to attack... that could decide the outcome.

Other teamgames did it better, by having objectives. Counter-Strike has planting a bomb as an objective for the terrorists. Games like Battlefield has spawn points you take over, to make it easier to attack.

What does Tremulous have? Nothing besides destroying everything. Camperheaven that is.

And as for why I don't go play Q3A, CS or something else. That's because I've already played them to death. But, Tremulous just seems to go its own way with everything. There is a reason why so many games are similar, it's because they have a good formula for fun. You can't create a good game just by going with the opposite in everything.

Well, I won't be playing Tremulous until it gets better anyways. For as it stands now, it just isn't fun for me. Have fun with your camping.