Author Topic: zybork's manifest of defense  (Read 11015 times)

zybork

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zybork's manifest of defense
« on: March 10, 2008, 01:22:28 am »
...background soundloop while writing this: Synphony of destruction by Megadeth...

This is a topic dedicated to all those out there who do not know the difference between two things that may look the same to the jerk, but are very different indeed: Camping and defense. And I am writing this just not to have it to repeat all the time and to be able to go more into detail than in ingame-chat.

zybork's manifest of defense or why defense is not camping

First of all, camping is weird. It means to remain on one spot and wait for prey, doing that only for the purpose of cheap kills or because a player could go out, but won't, actually reducing the strength of his team by one player. This is something I did in my first days of gaming, and after that, never again. Camping is bad. Also, a non-attacking team is usually a losing team, so camping is a really bad thing. We all know that camping humans lose, no matter where they camp. Hey man, I've played against camping humans located in the famous elevator room in Karith Station ... and won! Really, camping is not good.

In contrast to this, a defender also seems to remain in the base, shooting at any alien approaching it. So, where is the difference between camping and defending? First of all, a few facts that help unterstand the difference:

  • An undefended base gets destroyed. This is true both for the alien and human team. Until the enemy is completely on the run, there should always be somebody in the base, while the rest of the team goes out for the enemy. If too many "defenders" are in the base, they more likely step on each others toes than assist each other, this is something any experienced player will agree to.
  • Bots suck. A base "defended" by bots is not only equal to an undefended base, it is often worse, for bots tend to shoot the base's buildings. In fact, a bot-defended base means: One marauder sneaks into the base, all bots fire their lucies, reactor goes down... ::) and so on.
  • Humans have to team up for close combat, aliens don't. An average dretch takes down an average rifleman, an average goon takes down an average gunner, an average tyrant takes down an average chainsuit. (On long ranges, the aliens have to team up against the humans, but this is rarely the case.)
  • Humans have to reload. They also have to heal back home at their base. Really, I am not joking!

Now, what's the difference between a camper and a defender?

  • A defender protects more than only himself. A camper does not. A camper just stands around, moreless only protecting himself. A defender wants to get between the enemy and something else, the precious buildings, or the builder maintaining them.
  • A defender chases enemies only if it makes sense. Single tyrants are to be chased if possible. because once you get them, the alien team loses five evos. Good. If you have two of them in front of you, they will get you, mostly without even one of them being killed, which costs your own team 800 credits. Bad. So you don't. This is called logical thinking...
  • The goal of defense is not to win, but to prevent the other team from doing so. This seems to be hard to understand for all those teenies out there. They yell "camper camper camper" at the defenders. Keep yelling, babies, defense is a necessity, if you are not old enough to understand that, well, life is tough sometimes.
  • If the base is sufficiently protected, a defender will become an attacker. Maybe the most obvious difference between a defender and a camper: A defender is a fighter, he goes out, teams up with attackers immediately the moment he knows the base in good hands. That's logically correct of course, because, as we all know, a camping team is a losing team. On the other hand, an undefended base is a dead base, so who can attack again without an armoury and a medistation, not to speak of the reactor?
  • Defending is definetely not so much fun than attacking. I know this well, maybe much too well... However, more than once I found myself being the only one defending the base, because it is not so much fun. To my mind, losing the game is even more antifun, so I often do that damn job, if noone else does it. It has to be done either way.

That's moreless it, I hope I made myself clear, one last thing still: I don't know how many matches I played, and I was the builder or a defender quite often. And many many times, it was I who saved the necks of the others, because I rebuilt the base or just did my share to, well, "discourage" tyrants and advanced dragoons from attacking it. I also remember a number of times when the enemy base was completely undefended and I gooned/ranted down one turret after the other completely unchallenged or blasted down eggs and finally the overmind without anybody interfering... It is redundant to remark that my team of course won in such cases.

The bases in Tremulous - both alien and human bases - are designed not to be able to be left alone. This is a good thing, it makes the game much more tactical. If you do not understand that defense it a basic element, get back to your arena-egoshooters where you just can shoot-shoot-shoot and do not have to think, and - be quiet. And yes, I am indeed angry about those jerks yelling "camper" because one is not willing to just let them win.
I have retired from Tremulous. Definetely. If you play a game just because it has become a habit, but u'r only feeling like a kindergarten teacher - well, maybe I am just getting too old (hell, I was a teenager when DukeNukem3D was *new*) - it's probably not a bad idea to just let it be. And I do.

Don't take this personally. Have fun, guys.

Metsjeesus

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 10:20:31 am »
  • A defender protects more than only himself. A camper does not. A camper just stands around, moreless only protecting himself. A defender wants to get between the enemy and something else, the precious buildings, or the builder maintaining them.
Word!

Really, when its SD and human stays on a turret or on other building, its camping. If human stays front of a building, protecting it with own body, its defending.

Amanieu

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    • Amanieu
Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2008, 11:03:03 am »
Standing in front of a turret isn't such a good idea, you block it and prevent it from shooting the enemy.

Otherwise nice explanation of the subtle difference zybork :)
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Tycho

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 11:24:12 am »
Here is an shorter explanation of the difference: a camper will fire it's luci at dretches and camping tyrants or generally spams it into coridoors. A defender will fire at potentially dangerous things such as goons sniping or at tyrants that actually move in to eat buildings even if the aforementioned defender has only a rifle... ;)

personally I just jump behind them and bodyblock the tyrants so that they cannot retreat from the turrets they've just charged between...

Lava Croft

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 02:05:10 pm »
The best defense in Tremulous is a strong offense.

==Troy==

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 03:20:23 pm »
The best defense in Tremulous is a strong offense.

wrong.

having a good teamed-up group of humans going out to kill alien base without any defence left will result in a simple RC mara jump and complete elimination of human base. Afterwards all aliens need to do is to drain humans on ammo, using their regeneration ability, even if they lost their base.

Despairation

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 11:44:50 pm »
Hear that, Shade! I wasn't camping while you were gooning the base, i was defending by getting behind you with my psaw.. :P
go play in a food processor

You can poke it with a stick, but that doesn't change the facts.

zybork

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 01:26:08 am »
The best defense in Tremulous is a strong offense.

Sure. Tell that to the guys who maraud/saw down the enemy base while that team is "on the attack"... Personally, I *love* to play against "offenders", because it's so easy to win: Just slip through to their base, break it down, and wait for your own team to win. Works especially well against aliens.
I have retired from Tremulous. Definetely. If you play a game just because it has become a habit, but u'r only feeling like a kindergarten teacher - well, maybe I am just getting too old (hell, I was a teenager when DukeNukem3D was *new*) - it's probably not a bad idea to just let it be. And I do.

Don't take this personally. Have fun, guys.

qfuzion

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 01:51:13 am »
"The best defense is a good offense"
That only works when you are being offensive on all routes, if one is clear then the enemy will pwn your base.  :reactor: :overmind:

Geni3

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2008, 04:34:17 am »
So, what Lava means (I hope) is that it isn't a good offense if you only attack from one route and let the enemy flank you and kill your base. Also, a good offense will rush early in the game, before the timed evos, and the enemy will be dretches. Unless everyone on your team dies (not good offense) without killing a major portion of their base, you will win because when the few humans that died respawn, they will come with some better base killing guns, ie. lasgun and mass driver at stage 1, and for speed, go the other route, (atcs) and none of the enemy will escape.


Basically: With a good offense, the enemy can't get past you to kill your base. Therefore, lava's statement is correct.

Survivor

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2008, 10:25:34 am »
Besides the fact that not all bases go down to one rc-jump or om saw. You act like it is the end of the world but a reasonable defense grid is able to take some hits and slow the enemy down, usually enough for a respawner or a reloader to return to base and scare the enemy off.
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your face

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2008, 04:02:51 am »
Usually ppl who respawn don't wanna "waste" time building, but instead attack... even if the om is dead and there's one egg left... :P
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Bajsefar

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2008, 11:59:49 pm »
Mhm, but THAT does not sound like a good, coordinated, sensible offense.

Shadowgandor

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 04:46:16 pm »
Usually ppl who respawn don't wanna "waste" time building, but instead attack... even if the om is dead and there's one egg left... :P

Or even worse, people grabbing a vocabulary, writing down all the curses and other mean things about people not building and eventually thm spawning as a dretch.
The team loses, that guy starts yelling at us. He had 1 kill in 20 minutes btw.

St. Anger

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2008, 05:50:49 am »
What is this bullshit, camping is camping.

ChaosSquirrel

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Re: zybork's manifest of defense
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 11:45:10 pm »
There is one thing wrong with your definition of Camper vs. Defender: Transit. That map has one weakness: Idiot aliens! If aliens rush the stairs, 1/2 humans with lasguns can take down the dretches, and a couple chainsuits can hold the top of the stairs. Assuming 6 vs. 6, that leaves up to three humans free. If the dretches and basilisks climb, that makes human defense harder, but not impossible. Just a note.
My in-game name is )CGC( ChaosSquirrel.
Hint: The Basilisk is the most powerful Alien.
Yay! Finally someone agrees! Or was that sarcasm...