Author Topic: Lets break forward..  (Read 15823 times)

Carcinogen

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« on: October 05, 2001, 02:58:00 am »
[edit]nothing to see here...[/edit]

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-10-06 10:58 ]
avid "Carcinogen" Wyly
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Carcinogen

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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2001, 03:04:00 am »
[edit]...or here...[/edit]

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-10-06 10:58 ]
avid "Carcinogen" Wyly
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Timbo

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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2001, 04:33:00 pm »
I originally started coding Tremulous around spring/summer 2000. Once I decided it was possible and my coding skills were good enough to tackle this project I went about looking for artists to help me out. So around October 2000 I spoke a little to Carcinogen primarily about designing the mod, and also about modeling. Carcinogen then joined "the team" and the design of Tremulous skewed from the original Aliens vs Humans thread, to Bio-mechanical Organisms vs Humans. During this time (early 2001) a basic design for Tremulous was drawn up. This described the basis of the game play but fell a long way short in terms of class descriptions and other important details. This is basically what you see in the plan section. It hasn't changed or evolved in months. Progress on models has also been slow. During the past twelve months I have seen no models in game other than my own experiments and a mockup turret done by babyomen before he left. I don't think it would be unfair to say that progress on the modeling front over the past year has been unimpressive. The relatively large size of the Tremulous team at times was a result of this. Having five modelers at once was really an act of desperation on my part in the hope that something would actually get done.

In May, I effectively took a month out from Tremulous due to exam pressure. I was hoping that when I returned with people on vacation things would pick up. Unfortunately they didn't. By August I was at my wits end and ready to stop Tremulous altogether to work on other projects. Having something you've spent months of spare time working on appear to be redundant is hard to swallow. Around this time however, Veda took an interest in Tremulous. To my surprise, Veda became involved. Since August Veda and I have been developing Tremulous. One of the early decisions made was to revert to the original Aliens vs Humans theme.

22 individual classes were originally proposed (albeit without actual descriptions or abilities). Due to the memory constraints imposed by frame based animation it was decided that around 12 player models would be created, with some classes sharing player models. Given that id software took over two years of 9-5 days to produce 25-30, it is plainly obvious that 12 player models was an unrealistic and optimistic target from an artistic point of view AND from a diversity point of view. The new direction Tremulous is taking is simpler in design, with far more realistic targets.

Veda had been creating art content for his project over the last year but never successfuly garnered coding support. A lot of the content he created was able to fit with the code created for Tremulous to make a new mod. We worked together to revamp both projects into a new stronger project. By combining work we are able to put the mod on a progressive track and save both attempts from failing. It was not easy to come to this decision but I believe both of us realise both projects have benefitted immensely from the conjoining.

I have always maintained that Tremulous is a co-operative. I have ZERO time for egotistical maniacs who like to boss people around and call themselves "Team Leader" or similar titles. I (and I hope I speak for most amateur mod makers) make mods because I enjoy the creation process and the rewards reaped from putting effort into something over a long period of time. I am not in this for money, fame or fortune - only fun. At times however, things can seem daunting. Spending all your spare time working towards a long term goal requires dedication, commitment and persistence. In my opinion these qualities are more important than whatever tangible skill you bring to a project. For a co-operative to exist, people must co-operate. In the past year however, I have witnessed precious little. Therefore, Veda and I have decided to gently push the inactive team members. This is nothing personal - I like all of you guys, but your position developing Tremulous is questionable if you don't actually contribute.

Basically the current organisation does not work - the new way is going to be almost backwards in operation. If you want to help with Tremulous or get involved with the mod, find out what needs to be done and do it. That's it, no pre-designated team members, it doesn't work. What needs to be done are maps, map textures, map objects and human models. If you want to be involved in one of these areas contact Timbo or Veda or better both and find out how you can help. If you're already working on something in those areas - great. So as of now, only those actively contributing towards Tremulous will remain part of "the team".

I'm really sorry if this seems unfair. I spent the past two hours trying to find the words to soften the blow, but the reality is you had plenty of chances to make an effort and produce some work. This decision has really been coming for quite some time. I have been putting it off again and again for the past month, until this thread really brought things to the fore. I considered contacting each of you individually, but I decided it was best to post this publically. If everybody knows the truth, there is no scope for fallacious rumours implicating you OR I. Once again, this is not a personal attack, please don't take it as one. That said, I can understand that feelings may be hurt here and perhaps even anger towards me. I know I would be mildy angry in the same situation but I would at least understand why, I think.

On the bright side. In the coming days or weeks I will finally get around to updating the web site, and we shall hopefully be posting some new screen shots (and possibly the odd avi :wink:) of the (very cool) stuff in development. In regards to current progress, Tremulous has been worked on EVERY day for the last 2 months in almost all aspects of development. In addition to overhauling the in game effects and menu system, over a dozen completed game models are now in the game. Some new screenshots will definately be coming soon.

Stannum

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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2001, 06:11:00 pm »
Well, i have offered my help a couple of times. Im a pretty good modeler, animator and im learning to skin right now.

I am currently a freelance animator for FMJ. I have the the Dragunov SSV for them, and i might do more. And im also capable of making maps.

So if you really need help, id like to lend out a hand.
Blue © 2004 Natural Selection.

M123

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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2001, 06:16:00 pm »
The new screenshots look good, could you please make the latest binaries available again. I liked seeing this mod develop. And maby i'll spot some bugs.

Norfenstein

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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2001, 04:12:00 am »
Not just open source, open development. Rox.

Carcinogen

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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2001, 08:26:00 am »
[edit]who the fuck am I kidding[/edit]

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-10-07 00:54 ]
avid "Carcinogen" Wyly
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Norfenstein

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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2001, 03:52:00 pm »
...Carc?

Timbo

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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2001, 10:27:00 pm »
Quote

On 2001-10-06 10:16, M123 wrote:
The new screenshots look good, could you please make the latest binaries available again. I liked seeing this mod develop. And maby i'll spot some bugs.


In case anybody was wondering, the reason the latest binaries were taken down was as follows:

Quote

Orginally posted by some SF bloke

As announced via the SourceForge.net site status page, sitewide e-mail
(2001-07-19) and the project shell server Message of the Day (motd),
the SourceForge.net team is currently in the process of phasing out
project FTP services.  You are receiving this message because your
project currently has data stored in your project FTP space.



We no longer have an FTP service. Unfortunately the HTTP quota isn't large enough to hold copies of the mod. Additionally an entire copy has grown to around 10Mb over the past couple of months so it isn't realistic anymore to upload them. We have trouble coordinating internally without having to deal with uploading builds.

Sorry.

Psylo

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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2001, 02:50:00 am »
Erm, bt, what happened to all the artwork I shared with this mod...the spacemarine design for example, is it needed any longer?

Is there anything i can do?
Or is there no further use for concept art?

And what has changed?

Im really cunfused
You should have said something much earlier,
 this destoys the whole imagination I had for this mod.
And what happened to the plan section?

Timbo

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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2001, 03:15:00 pm »
Quote

On 2001-10-08 18:50, Psylo wrote:
Erm, bt, what happened to all the artwork I shared with this mod...the spacemarine design for example, is it needed any longer?


The majority of the artwork you did is still useful since it dealt with the human team, which hasn't changed. It was removed from the shots section along with all the other shots since the vast majority of the screenshots were either old or not relevant anymore. Another consideration was the large load times caused by screenshots uploaded without the creation of a thumbnail. There is no point in having thumbnails at all if the thumbnail is simply the image itself.

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Is there anything i can do?
Or is there no further use for concept art?


You'd really have to talk to Veda about that. However, he is an all round artist and tends to create his own concepts or work without so I'm not sure he'll be all that enthusiastic.

Quote

And what has changed?

Im really cunfused
You should have said something much earlier,
 this destoys the whole imagination I had for this mod.


This isn't directly aimed at anyone, but I didn't really see the need to say anything much earlier since no one appeared (bear in mind snarf logs everything) to be taking an interest or doing anything - you can't hold that against me. Please note - I informed everyone of the situation in this thread the day after somebody (Carcinogen, in the now deleted posts) first voiced a new interest in Tremulous.

Quote

And what happened to the plan section?


The plan section is still in the database. We felt it would be misleading to leave it on the website when it doesn't really reflect (and never did) the state of Tremulous. You can view it here.

Psylo

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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2001, 03:56:00 pm »
Hmm, please don't use the space marine design
Im not sure if i like it to be used for a mod I cant imagine...
And you know it is a design i made for my own comic project originally..

Well, good luck with the mod.




Timbo

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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2001, 04:26:00 pm »
Quote

On 2001-10-09 07:56, Psylo wrote:
Hmm, please don't use the space marine design
Im not sure if i like it to be used for a mod I cant imagine...
And you know it is a design i made for my own comic project originally..


OK. No problems.

Quote

Well, good luck with the mod.


Thankyou.

Carcinogen

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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2001, 02:37:00 am »
[edit]...or here!

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-10-16 15:55 ]
avid "Carcinogen" Wyly
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Veda

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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2001, 03:28:00 am »
"If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't have been in #tremulous."

No, if you weren't interested you wouldn't have put anything into the game for over 11 months.

"By not telling us, whether we asked you or not... you did the wrong thing. Period. Until you actually apoligize instead of justifying it, I will always hold it against you."

You have one person to blame. Yourself. That's hard to swallow at 16-17. Stop using scapegoats, your in control of your own life and what you make of it.

Prove everyone wrong by creating some kick ass models. Prove everyone wrong by animating something. Prove everyone wrong that you can devote yourself to something and not rely on someone else to give you inspiration. There is nothing to be afraid of, just do it.

You are just in wrong as not telling Timbo you couldn't do the task as much as he was for not telling your earlier.

I'm done with this thread and this topic, I won't be replying to it again. Prove me wrong by showing up with something incredible or just move on.


[ This Message was edited by: Veda on 2001-10-09 20:27 ]

Sandy

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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2001, 11:13:00 pm »
Does everyone need to argue this much?

Tremulous has come on bucketloads in the last year .... why not work together to finish it?

If you do work for the mod (models, maps etc) it will be recognised im sure.  Personally im not l33t enough to do anything here (par testing) .... why not quit all the bitching and arguing and try to do some quality work which you are (obviously) all capable of doing?

There is nothing wrong with taking an open source approach to the mod, it means more people can get involved in the development ...
MG OMG OMG

DarkStorm

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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2001, 12:06:00 am »
That's not what we're angry about.  See the "I don't like this" thread.
 have seen the light...
...and it burns.

Stannum

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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2001, 06:54:00 pm »
The bio droids idea has been thrown away?
If so, shame! I really liked that idea!

Blue © 2004 Natural Selection.

Carcinogen

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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2001, 11:03:00 pm »
[edit]...keep scrolling...[/edit]

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-10-16 15:56 ]
avid "Carcinogen" Wyly
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Timbo

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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2001, 04:40:00 pm »
OK. Thats it. I have tried, hell I have been reasonable and diplomatic, but this is the final straw. Forgive me if this seems personal, but you have made it so.

Quote

That's nice. You made major changes, behind out back, merely by an "assumtion." I jumped on the channel, said "hi" on multiple occasions, with no reply. Doesn't mean I wasn't interested in Tremulous, maybe it means you wouldn't talk to me, so I figured I wouldn't talk to you. I made those posts, because I was sick of the lack of communication and wanted to get things rolling again.


Twelve months ago, you joined my project. You started a design which was never finished, and the beginnings of a few models. After 6-7 months I decided this was less than impressive, so I gave you pep talk. You didn't show me anything. Two weeks passed, and I gave you more "encouragement". You didn't show me anything. As if I hadn't done so already, I gave up on you. Thereafter I had nothing to say to you. If you had been interested in development and were actually doing something you were entirely free to tell me so - but you didn't.

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By not telling us, whether we asked you or not... you did the wrong thing. Period. Until you actually apoligize instead of justifying it, I will always hold it against you.


What in the hell do I have to apologise for? I have done nothing but give you second chance and third chance and fourth chance to produce. I have gone out of my way to help you out and give you the benefit of the doubt. And what do you do? You ask ME to apologise. What sort of crazy bullshit is that?

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...by not telling us of the occurrences that were going on...


Buy a book on grammar and read it.

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And Timbo, get this into your skull, there were no models in game, yes, but there fucking is models on my hard drive . I was learning how to skinmap. If you so desperately thought Tremulous was going to fail, you could have recruited someone else to help take the load off of me. Yeah, you did, you replaced me and all the work I did in one fell swoop, and for 2 months you failed to tell me. I had models, they eventually would have been in game. I was working. And can you be so blind, and jump to conclusions, thinking I'm not working?


If I scanned in a hand written algorithm design and showed it to you, would that mean anything? No it wouldn't - in the real world that hasn't helped anything. Hell I could show you a pile of paper an inch thick of scribbles and designs, but without the actual completed, working code it doesn't mean a thing. Its like baking a cake without mixing any of the ingredients.

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Now I can model for mapobjects, because that's the only position available for me. Funfun.


If you didn't want this, you had a year to make models of a different nature, but you didn't. You have absolutely nobody to blame for this but yourself - stop shifting the blame.

Quote

And what happened to my beautiful plan? You changed it, you manipulated it, you raped it all behind my back. Then you throw me away like a piece of trash. Then justify it, pretending nothing wrong was done, because the models on my hard drive weren't in game.. the only thing that mattered. I always thought of the plan as my personal pride and joy. I loved that thing. Now I can't see it "until it's done." The plan that Timbo came to me for, is now warped in the hands of others, without my input. It's hard to explain, but I angers me that you touch something I sweated blood over many a night, and spontaneously decide to change it one day, and say "hell with what carc thinks". My plan. Dear god, what did you do to my plan. That meant everything to me. And you don't tell me about that either. I lost my plan, it was given to Tremulous, and Tremulous kicks me out. Veda's plan, instead, is replacing parts of it.


"Your" beautiful plan still exists as already pointed out. You can do with it what you wish.

Quote

* kicked inactive members (those who aren't in actuality working)


I'll be blunt. Of the members deserving to be kicked when a "team" structure existed, you were at the top of the list. You even admited to, and I quote "procrastination" and general lack of effort, but those posts have now been conviniently blanked.

Quote

So you dump me, and say that I have done nothing for Tremulous. Bullshit. I have done much for Tremulous, you just haven't seen it yet.


I have brought peace and goodwill toward all men whilst making cold fusion a reality and working out the Hubble constant to 3 decimal places, you just haven't seen it yet.

Quote

And one last thing. If you don't like people claiming a mod as theirs, then who gives you the right to kick everyone out of the mod?


Did I ever say I don't like people clamining a mod as theirs? Uh no I didn't. A mod is owned by those who put effort and work into creating it.

Quote

I guess this is in fact your mod, Timbo. You must have thought that I wasn't worth the effort to tell. You were wrong.


I was right.

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I have nothing against you Timbo, or what you did, but how you did impacted me the most.


If you have nothing against me or what I did, why the insulting flames? Stop contradicting yourself and get your facts straight.

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I am greatly offended and hurt that you didn't tell me what was going on


Will you please stop all this melodramatic bullshit.

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and that I couldn't participate in discussion over the plan, which you know I hold very, very close.


If it was so incredibly important to you then why was it not significantly updated since June?

Quote

(wish you would have done it sooner, it wouldn't have come to this).


If he had, you would have been just as bitchy and over dramatic as you are being now. Don't try and deny it.

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Maybe I should find another mod that might actually respect my ideas, instead of mutilating them merely because if personal taste.


With the amount of self-centered, delusional, irrational, stupifying nonsense you have posted over the past week, I'm beginning to wish you would.

Quote

Your immaturity in how you handled the situation is quite obvious, there was a better way, but you failed to see it. And you can't admit to it.


Immaturity? Jesus, coming from you - that is not even funny.

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I wish I could say I am finished with Tremulous, but I have held this mod very dear to me for the last year... I can't just leave it.


Oh please, just leave it. Veda has even offered you the chance to animate a model after a multitude of chances from me. And what do you do? You insult him on a public forum. I for one have had ENOUGH.

Quote

I feel as if I have a valid reason to be agry, it pisses me off that you merely ignore this fact and point fingers at me. Give me some more dignity then that.


You do have a valid reason to be angry, but only with yourself. Why do you think people are pointing fingers at you?

If you are still so dearly, closely, importantly, [more meaningless adjectives], sexually attached to "your" plan, then why not make it a reality? There is absolutely nothing stopping you (certainly not I) from continuing where you left off, albeit without me. None of your existing work is wasted and you can do wth you like with the plan (including all the stupid unrealistic ideas). I'm serious, if it is that important to you then keep going and quit with the out pourings of self pity here.

I've put up with this for a week, but after the above post enough is enough. If you want to delude yourself further then do it elsewhere. I am not going to listen to you ANY more. Reply if you like, but from my pov at any rate you are just gonna be wearing out your keyboard.


DarkStorm

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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2001, 07:19:00 pm »
I liked the Timbo that explained himself more than I like the Timbo that just bitches right back at us.  This transformation of yours has given your writing an undertone of 'authority' that I severly detest.  I heard it from RXN so long ago and now I'm hearing it again.  It's like I'm a flamewar veteran.  Don't be offended if I accidently refer to you as BinaryCowboy by mistake.  (No offense to the current BinaryCowboy but the old one and I just didn't get along).

Now that I've said what little I feel like coming forth with on that, allow me to go to my usual method of reply:

You have such an easy time bitching out Carcinogen.  Why don't you bitch out me?  I'm quite prepared to take this as far as you wish.  I still have many valid statements and questions that demand an answer, not just to me, but to the public in general.

Your focus has become clear.  You waste your time participating in a flame when you could be explaining what people need to acquire in order to develop for this "open development" modification.  Some documentation on how to go about producing media for Tremulous would be nice too.  And hey, since you're on track now and 'chugging along' how about some milestones?  I'm sorry if this angers you but your claim at open development just seems rather suspicious.  Documentation is pure fiction, the development forum is not open to public viewing (for reasons beyond my comprehending--either keep it open or delete the damn thing there is no benefit to keeping it private).  And we can no longer acquire builds...  All these changes happen upon the announcement that Trem is now opendev.  At least a date as to when documentation and development guidelines will be available might suffice at this point.  A week ago you two told me you'd still like my map in the game (and I'm sure you wouldn't), but how am I supposed to do that?

We don't want words justifying your actions.  We want actions to justify your words.

Or, if you rather, we could just continue with the flame trend.  I'm prepared to spellcheck every reply if neccesary so that you can't get in any cheap shots.  Just give the word, let's hear what the "Tremulous Gods" (you'd have to be a gloomer to understand the significance of that phrase) have to say about this wreck.
 have seen the light...
...and it burns.

Timbo

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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2001, 07:47:00 pm »
Quote

On 2001-10-15 11:19, DarkStorm wrote:
I liked the Timbo that explained himself more than I like the Timbo that just bitches right back at us.


I bitched once, above after being bitched at for a week.

Quote

This transformation of yours has given your writing an undertone of 'authority' that I severly detest.  I heard it from RXN so long ago and now I'm hearing it again.  It's like I'm a flamewar veteran.  Don't be offended if I accidently refer to you as BinaryCowboy by mistake.  (No offense to the current BinaryCowboy but the old one and I just didn't get along).


I'm sorry you think that way. I've always considered BC to be the most rational member of RxN.

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You have such an easy time bitching out Carcinogen.  Why don't you bitch out me?


Because I don't have a problem with you, yet you seem to want me to...  which is odd.

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Your focus has become clear.  You waste your time participating in a flame when you could be explaining what people need to acquire in order to develop for this "open development" modification.


I don't understand where this "open development" has come from...

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Some documentation on how to go about producing media for Tremulous would be nice too.


Using whatever tools are necessary? If you have specific questions, by all means ask me.

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And hey, since you're on track now and 'chugging along' how about some milestones?  I'm sorry if this angers you but your claim at open development just seems rather suspicious.


What claim? I honestly don't know what are saying.

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Documentation is pure fiction, the development forum is not open to public viewing (for reasons beyond my comprehending--either keep it open or delete the damn thing there is no benefit to keeping it private).


It only exists since there is some info in there that i need to save to disk. I'll get around to that soon and delete it.

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And we can no longer acquire builds...  All these changes happen upon the announcement that Trem is now opendev.


See my other post about getting builds. Trem is NOT now "open development". It never was and it probably never will be. It remains "open source", and it always will.

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At least a date as to when documentation and development guidelines will be available might suffice at this point.  A week ago you two told me you'd still like my map in the game (and I'm sure you wouldn't), but how am I supposed to do that?


The same way you were mapping before. You didn't even need a build of Trem to do that. The map of yours I saw (which was v nice) in fact only worked in baseq3 since it didn't use any Trem entities.

DarkStorm

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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2001, 07:54:00 pm »
The current build uses Trem entities.  While I disagree with the map's overall look (it doesn't look very nice) I still considered it effectively a production quality map.  I'm sorry I've been snapping at you, but I get that way under these conditions.  You're right, you're not being very bitchy to me or most people, but Carcinogen is still a very good friend of mine and he did bring me into the project.  And I still suspect that my current map wouldn't fit the new Tremulous.  You've said yourself in the channel that you absolutely were not any kind of designer.  So what seems like a small change to you could be a very big change to us.
 have seen the light...
...and it burns.

Carcinogen

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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2001, 01:30:00 am »
[edit]...i suck

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-10-16 15:58 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-12-21 07:50 ]
avid "Carcinogen" Wyly
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HOB

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« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2001, 03:47:00 am »
boring
ing of the Jungle

DarkStorm

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« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2001, 03:27:00 pm »
You think my maps are boring?
 have seen the light...
...and it burns.

HOB

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« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2001, 06:10:00 pm »
yes
ing of the Jungle

DarkStorm

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« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2001, 07:27:00 pm »
Well if you don't like my maps, then there's certainly no point to mapping at all.  Afterall, you are the chosen speaker for the community.  I've scarce seen a soul that ever disagrees with you.
 have seen the light...
...and it burns.

Who

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  • Turrets: +36/-22
Lets break forward..
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2001, 12:10:00 am »
666th post, I'm honored.


[ This Message was edited by: Who on 2001-10-16 16:12 ]