Author Topic: Planned Development Games  (Read 741098 times)

Sayeru

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #510 on: July 12, 2009, 04:14:36 am »
Pedobear, your are totally wrong.

Nux explained that correctly. Shortly I would say:

Pro rifleman vs. Pro dretch - Rifleman wins. The only way to kill him is ambush, but if humans is enough "pro" he won't let the dretch ambush him.
Newbie rifleman vs. newbie dretch - Dretch usually wins. (Depends of unlagged)  

borsuk

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #511 on: July 12, 2009, 09:35:07 am »
Some feedback from yesterday's 1.2 game:

- basilisk is not fun to play. I don't know what's the exact cause, but I tend to die quickly when exposed to combat. More than in 1.1 . I suppose it's a combination of unlagged, lower HP and improved luci/pulse. As soon as S3 starts, approaching humans feels like suicide. Basilisk may have max hp more often now, but less health hurts. 12 rifle rounds are enough to kill basi, and other popular weapons just got faster.
What new basi does well is portable booster (health regen). It is very fast if you somehow manage to get yourself close to a basilisk. For this I suggest two changes: 1) if you play a basilisk, teammates within range of your healing aura are highlighted like buildings marked for decon. Especially if they're currently regenerating health thanks to your aura. This change would make it much easier to tell if you're healing someone or not. 2) All alien players get a sound indicator when they're regenerating health within a range of some regen booster (creep, booster, basilisk). Ideally the sound should differ when regen is faster (for example faint humming, getting stronger or higher pitch when health regen is faster). This would draw attention to the fact you're benefiting from some regen booster. Current indicator is much too unconspicuous ! It's quite hard to notice. At the very least  the cross should get a completely new color... but I prefer sound indicator. Because regeneration pretty much doesn't occur in combat, it wouldn't cause noise in combat.
One more issue: basilisk gas has nice weakening effect, but gas attack lasts a LOONG time. It certainly feels very long for a lifeform with 80 HP and limited movement. For these seconds gas completely stops you from dealing damage, and from getting evos. I think it would be nice if basilisk could breath gas in controlled burst, much like flamethrower. But it would have a "magazine", so basilisk couldn't breath longer than current duration. The difference would be basilisk gas attack would last UP TO current duration. Basilisk would be able to stop it earlier if there's no need to gas the entire squad. Another problem with basilisk gas is that no damage dealt means no evos. If you play a team friendly basilisk who tries to heal and gas enemies, you'll get very little evos and will often be stuck as dretch. With 1.2 partial evos, I find it much easier to evolve to higher lifeforms as dretch, much easier than with basilisk.

- marauder is much more fun to play. My preferred class in 1.2. Two attacks they have feel quite distinct.  Claw has higher damage to a single target, while zap has higher range (great against psaw, good in vents), is good against bases, and is an excellent opportunity attack. If you manage to ambush a group of humans you can fry them all, IF you hit. But once humans spread a little claw is much better. It feels so good to hit 2-3 players with zap.
Jumping is deffinitely better, scaling walls is quite easy now. What I would really like to see is ability to bounce off ceilings, not just walls and floor. Typically when you hit a ceiling you're an easy target, because you start falling in a predictable way. Marauder is quite vulnerable in corridors.

- One of human turrets remains unchanged. I think it should be changed too, because it's one of last bastions of humans' campy tactics. I mean the one that needs a human to operate. The jetpacker.
Jetpacks are essentially turrets. They deal damage, they are hard to reach and barely move at all. They're nearly useless in offense. In Natural Selection jetpacks can only afford short bursts before they have to land to recharge. This makes them much better in attack. But this is Tremulous, not Natural Selection, and good design ideas are rejected if they're used in other games. So an alternate solution should be found.
One change hopefully won't be controversial - make the damn thing more quiet. Being stuck in a base with 3 or more jetpack turrets makes me take off my headphones, it's that painful.

- Speaking as a dretch, I like new human machinegun turrets. It's no longer a suicide to approach them.

- new adv. goons and marauders can really damage a base.

- no camper evos is a double edged sword. Perhaps camper credits should be returned, but work like Battle Sense in Enemy Territory games ? For the uninitated, you'd gain evos if you take damage AND survive for 30 seconds. This would have following benefits: a) discourages feeding, unless feeder actually deals some damage at which point he ceases to be a mere feeder b) jetpackers and cowards in general would gain very little from it. People leaving bases and surviving for a while would be rewarded. Builders would also have a way to get evos/credits - if they survive an attack and don't feed, they'd be rewarded.
To illustrate how problematic no camper credits can be once players' tactics and metagame adapt, consider this:
2 days ago I've seen a strange tactics deployed against my alien team on ATCS. Humans moved base early, but they moved reactor to... doors of the middle building. At S1. At this point it's very easy to shoot and repair from behind, it deals damage and blocks aliens from entering. Luckily for us they fumbled the move and we got the reactor before it fully materialized. And in 1.1, camper credits would cause aliens to get dragoons and marauders, and we'd take the reactor down. But consider what would happen if humans camp this way in 1.2 ? Because reactor blocks the entrance, no humans can leave and feed ! No matter how newbish. Aliens gain NO credits and are stuck as dretches. They can't damage RC, they are zapped by it, they are shot at, and I'm not sure the openings are even big enough to admit a dretch. Eventually, if aliens don't disconnect, humans temporarily decon RC. One or two of them spam the entrance with flamethrowers and bsuits while RC finishes. The rest attacks with superior equipment.

{7}wrath

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #512 on: July 12, 2009, 02:55:26 pm »
Interesting insight on the jetpacker.
I wanted to say three things:
1. Construction kit + jetpack = very useful.
2. I think jetpacks should get a short burst of speed when first used and then slow down to the current speed. This way the jetpack can be used to avoid rants as they come near. (jet out of reach quickly)
3. My older brother (who also plays tremulous) had some ideas of how to nerf the jet. There could be a limited flight time, so that the jet must be recharged, or the jet could not operate outside of a certain range of repeaters (maybe three times the build range) and when the jet left this range (or when the rc went down) then he had a backup fuel cell that would run out after  a couple seconds.


Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #513 on: July 12, 2009, 04:19:54 pm »
I've seen limited time jetties already implemented... somewhere. (Anybody know?)

I've heard a few suggestions for changing the way jetties work. I'd appreciate seeing more of them implemented. If you do make the jet have an initial burst, you'd have to make sure they can't just quickly turn the pack off and do it over and over again. Perhaps having a boost while holding shift which drains stamina would be more effective (for realisms sake, jetting at all would require stamina).

Other suggestions I've heard involve making the jetpack more of a jump-booster which can't maintain flight but does throw you into the air.

borsuk

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #514 on: July 12, 2009, 04:56:20 pm »
My point wasn't so much to nerf jetpack. I called it humans' third turret because it strenghtens human defence without providing any real offensive capability. It ties up human players. Human jetpackers are like turret humpers. To be a jetpacker means not to attack. I'd rather have jetpacks which can attack, this would be more interesting for both sides. For most part you ignore jetpackers, the only class able to take them down effectively is dragoon. Marauder might be a bit better now with better climbing, but it's situational.

Asvarox

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #515 on: July 12, 2009, 05:11:57 pm »
Jetpack should work like in Worms (2d worms not those 3d bullsith) - it's quite fast, you can only "fly up" with it, you can't just float in air, you can't stop falling just by turning it on, and it has limited ammo. You will be able to travel with it (for example to vents in karith), but shooting while flying will be almost impossible unless you have aimbot (another "+", easier to spot aimbotters :P ).
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KillerWhale

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #516 on: July 12, 2009, 05:22:27 pm »
I played yesterday, and I've really lost my animosity for some of the dev changes.

I still think the dretch is a bit too weak, but I can deal.

Building for humans is great fun now, but the slow-regen makes building confusing for everyone involved. It's almost like a battle to see who gets that 8 BP, the guy spamming turrets, or the guy who needs 2 more BP for another telenode? I can understand slow-regen for destroyed structures, but what about deconstructed ones? If your team didn't have the foresight or the time to mark your base before moving, have fun with waiting for a full base's BPs.
There was also an issue with structures randomly not being powered. A turret would be well inside the reactor's power, not be dead, and not built before the RC was moved there, but it didn't work. I had to decon it, and eventually get my BPs stolen by forward builders.

I don't get why everyone's complaining about basi so much. With the short-time gas, it's not terrible for humans, and you can even put up an offense against lucis.
If people don't want to be a healer as a basi, they don't have to. Your team is big and strong, they can make it to the creep.
It's not overly powerful though, and takes some skill to play.

The Rant and Goon movement attacks are a little powerful for my tastes, but that's how they should've been in the first place, not the jokes they are now.

Really, the changes on their own were pretty bad, but as a culmination, they're pretty fun.

David

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #517 on: July 12, 2009, 05:32:12 pm »
IMO the hud need to be improved to show how many BP there are to come, and how many are marked.
Also, basi's need to get something work working as a booster.  Yesterday we had a 2v2 game, and I was running support for a goon+ most of the time.  I was just healing / gassing etc so got nothing for it, forcing me to go dretching for kills every time I died.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Annihilation

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #518 on: July 12, 2009, 06:44:03 pm »
IMO the hud need to be improved to show how many BP there are to come, and how many are marked.
Also, basi's need to get something work working as a booster.  Yesterday we had a 2v2 game, and I was running support for a goon+ most of the time.  I was just healing / gassing etc so got nothing for it, forcing me to go dretching for kills every time I died.

I don't agree with the basi part, in public games its normally more than a 2v2 and you should be able to pick off evos now and then even if you are support, but if not the large amount of people can generally switch off who is supporting.  And in smaller games(referencing mostly to clan matches) you don't want 3 basis constantly there because they get rewarded for just being there, thats an unfair advantage to the aliens in a small game.  Basi shouldn't be cost effective because its intention is support not defense or attacking.  Its almost like buying an extra medpack, and that medpack shouldn't earn credits, you should be earning credits from the extra health already.  This is another reason why share is better than you like to assume it is.  The goon+ getting more evos and living longer because of you should be handing down some profits your way.
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David

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #519 on: July 12, 2009, 07:33:48 pm »
I'm not saying you should get evo's just for being there, but what about when the goon kills gassed/grabbed people?  Maybe give a small amount (10%?) of that damage to the basi.  And why not get (very slow) evo's for healing?

The basi is currently designed to be a support class, it makes big aliens massively more effective by healing them and screwing the enemy.  Doing that helps the team alot, and is seemingly how it's meant to be played, so why not give the basi's something for doing what they are supposed to be doing?  I guess the same argument goes for builders too :)
Also need to be able to see teammates health, or at least some vague indication of how hurt they are.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #520 on: July 12, 2009, 07:52:49 pm »
I'm not saying you should get evo's just for being there, but what about when the goon kills gassed/grabbed people?  Maybe give a small amount (10%?) of that damage to the basi.  And why not get (very slow) evo's for healing?

The basi is currently designed to be a support class, it makes big aliens massively more effective by healing them and screwing the enemy.  Doing that helps the team alot, and is seemingly how it's meant to be played, so why not give the basi's something for doing what they are supposed to be doing?  I guess the same argument goes for builders too :)
Also need to be able to see teammates health, or at least some vague indication of how hurt they are.
just slash them a couple times...
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Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
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Annihilation

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Slashing them doesn't always get you evos, you have to do enough damage and they have to have enough equipement that the evos can be split up.
[11:33:20 PM] Kaine:
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How do you perform goon-copulation if he doesn't play?
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We just get on VC and listen to camels dying until we orgasm

Asvarox

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #522 on: July 12, 2009, 10:37:26 pm »
You sir should play at development server.

We have "partial evos" (means you can get 0.1, 0.9 etc. evo) nub :P
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Annihilation

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Re: 1.2 is officially abandoned, project has lost all developers.
« Reply #523 on: July 12, 2009, 10:46:59 pm »
Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature..  Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.
[11:33:20 PM] Kaine:
Quote from: KobraKaine
How do you perform goon-copulation if he doesn't play?
Quote from: PowerOverwhelming
We just get on VC and listen to camels dying until we orgasm

{7}wrath

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1.2 beta released
« Reply #524 on: July 12, 2009, 11:22:35 pm »
On the development server. Have fun, all!

amz181

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stop making stupid titles
« Reply #525 on: July 12, 2009, 11:35:22 pm »
O RLY?

Nux

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Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature..  Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.

Nothing costs half an evo, but guess what happens when you earn half an evo TWICE!!

David

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Re: 1.2 is officially abandoned, project has lost all developers.
« Reply #527 on: July 13, 2009, 12:15:28 am »
Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature..  Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.

I thought the same thing at first, but in practice it works out OK, the benefits outweigh the problem of your first kill not getting you enough to evo.
And slashing is hard when I suck :)
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

{7}wrath

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #528 on: July 13, 2009, 12:18:19 am »
This.

Annihilation

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Re: 1.2 is officially abandoned, project has lost all developers.
« Reply #529 on: July 13, 2009, 12:47:56 am »
Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature..  Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.

I thought the same thing at first, but in practice it works out OK, the benefits outweigh the problem of your first kill not getting you enough to evo.
And slashing is hard when I suck :)

I suck at slashing too.
[11:33:20 PM] Kaine:
Quote from: KobraKaine
How do you perform goon-copulation if he doesn't play?
Quote from: PowerOverwhelming
We just get on VC and listen to camels dying until we orgasm

mooseberry

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Re: Timbo's love for biking has superseded Tremulous, 1.2 is cancelled.
« Reply #530 on: July 13, 2009, 12:55:59 am »
It's more about getting in position to use your slashes than the slashes themselves.  :basilisk:
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Colynn'

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #531 on: July 13, 2009, 10:24:11 am »
I've seen limited time jetties already implemented... somewhere. (Anybody know?)
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danmal

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #532 on: July 13, 2009, 12:37:38 pm »
I've seen limited time jetties already implemented... somewhere. (Anybody know?)

Tremwars/modwars, Slacker's QVM has that feature implemented.

Baconizer

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Re: The developer's granger pr0n addiction has caused them to abandon us
« Reply #533 on: July 13, 2009, 09:48:18 pm »
Partial evos are nice. Unfortunately, I'm not good enough to really play well against most of the people who get on MGDev (and I haven't really practised it at all), so it takes me forever to actually get a full evo.  :P But I can still see it would be very handy.

As for the limited jetpack, I'd much rather have a (auto-recharging) jetpack that has something like a 1-2 minute charge when it's full.
Jettards could still ruin a large part of the game, but not nearly so easily. Feature pl0x.

I like most of the changes that are going to be in 1.2 (especially [tent]), I just haven't taken the time to get used to them. Mostly because it still has a very unfinished feel, but I imagine that will go away once it's actually released. Now hurry up and do so.  >:(
Why will you folk not ban me? :'(

amz181

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I LIEK 1.2
« Reply #534 on: July 13, 2009, 10:14:13 pm »


As for the limited jetpack, I'd much rather have a (auto-recharging) jetpack that has something like a 1-2 minute charge when it's full.
Jettards could still ruin a large part of the game, but not nearly so easily. Feature pl0x.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #535 on: July 13, 2009, 11:12:34 pm »
It only takes 40 sec to empty the lasgun... so 1-2 min jetting would be too much imo. I like the idea of jet that accelerates only instead of moving at constant speed. It would be much faster for getting up somewhere, and time limit could be much lower (with recharge).

Norfenstein

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #536 on: July 14, 2009, 12:17:39 am »
If any of that had issues with the dretch didn't play last Saturday, please try it again next chance you get. I think lowering the repeat really makes a big difference. Yes, it's still weaker than 1.1 dretch (besides the fact that it moves faster), and in an idealized match between a perfect human player and a perfect dretch player the dretch will still never win, but if last Saturday's game was typical I think I'm satisfied enough with it.

[wall of text]
Yes, basilisk healing and regen in general should have better feedback.

Gas now only slows for a long time; the aim muddling only lasts as long as the gas's repeat.

What I would really like to see is ability to bounce off ceilings, not just walls and floor.
Interesting idea, but I don't think you'd always want to do that. If you were trying to climb a wall and bumped your head on any tiny greeble it'd push you down. And it'd make marauder launchers less feasible :(

But this is Tremulous, not Natural Selection, and good design ideas are rejected if they're used in other games.
the hell?

For the uninitated, you'd gain evos if you take damage AND survive for 30 seconds.
Sounds either highly abusable or awkwardly complicated. And besides, why would you necessarily deserve free funds if you survive for a length of time but not if you die? I think we've proven pretty definitively that free funds are not a deterrent to feeding.

Perhaps having a boost while holding shift which drains stamina would be more effective (for realisms sake, jetting at all would require stamina).
tjw actually wanted to do exactly that, but never got around to implementing it. Unfortunately -- whether you can believe this or not -- I'm really trying to wrap up gameplay changes so we can actually have some kind of release of 1.2. I think mucking around with the jetpack at this stage would be too big a change. Have to draw the line somewhere (in truth, if it hadn't been for some outstanding bugs I probably would have stopped fiddling with things weeks ago). I agree that the sound should be quieter.

Really, the changes on their own were pretty bad, but as a culmination, they're pretty fun.
Heh. Could you please share this insight when the inevitable avalanche of hate follows the release of 1.2? I'm considering ignoring the forums entirely for a month afterward because "first" impressions of a major change to something people already know well tend to be useless and hostile.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 12:21:09 am by Norfenstein »

A Spork

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #537 on: July 14, 2009, 01:01:41 am »
1.2 is actually gonna be released?
Gasp.
But TBH, fixing something about the jets to make them less jettard-freindly, would be (almost) worth waiting for IMHO.
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temple

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #538 on: July 14, 2009, 04:18:03 am »
Sounds either highly abusable or awkwardly complicated. And besides, why would you necessarily deserve free funds if you survive for a length of time but not if you die? I think we've proven pretty definitively that free funds are not a deterrent to feeding.

It works like this
Survive
Survive after taking or dealing damage
Survive after killing someone
Survive after taking damage and killing someone

The game checks your state every 45-90 seconds I think.

You get more experience based on the condition.  After a certain amount of experience, the easier ways don't reward as much.  It is actually the hardest form of experience to get and usually goes to people that really kick ass.  Just a FYI

{7}wrath

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #539 on: July 14, 2009, 04:46:35 am »
Quote
wrap up gameplay changes so we can actually have some kind of release of 1.2.
Let it be finished when it is finished. If we can improve the jetpack, we should.
Also, please make tube damage go where the acid goes.