Unlagged - Yes or No

[temple]

You can get used to high ping by leading shots etc.. but you can not prepare or avoid getting killed behind the wall you just dodged to.

You can, don't get seen.  The only change is that you don't have the milliseconds of cover provided by the difference between your ping and your shooter's.

[temple]

@Bissig: You quite hit the mark there. Whereas in the normal situation, one would only have to adjust his aiming to his own, hopefully consistent ping, with Unlagged, you have to look at the ping(s) of your opponent(s) and try to adjust your movement on that. I think the first is a lot easier to accomplish with a bit of training, whereas with the latter, it's outside of your control, and the only thing you can do is get annoyed.

Bullshit.  You have to do a lot more compensation without Unlagged.  In fact, that is established with the fact that people lead hitscan weapons. 

Unlagged innately does all the calculations necessary to compensate for latency differences.  That's the point of it.

[Bomb]

Don't double-post. That qualifies as spam, iirc.

[St. Anger]

If unlagged assists aim so much, why couldn't you hit my mara? I consistently had 150+ hp after fighting your human!

Because you fail to understand that because I do not play with Unlagged outside of MGdev, I adjust my aim to my ping, as I have done since I first started playing Quake on-line. I ping a good 150 to MGdev, so I lead my shots accordingly.

If you cannot adapt quickly to silly old unlagged, and are forced out of habit to apply to same strategy (leading) to every situation you are presented with, perhaps (actually, quite obviously, judging by your in-game performance) you aren't quite as skilled as you think you are.

Playing with a high ping builds character. If you cannot handle a lousy 150ms latency, you just lack the proper skills.

Playing with unlagged builds character. If you cannot handle lousy unlagged, you just lack the proper skills, and hair.

[Bissig]

@David

Oh, and if you can kill a dretch with a md just by hitting the air left or right of it without actually hitting its center, that is lame.

That's a hit-box issue that's always been there and has no relation to unlagged.  In 1.2 the model and hit-box are roughly the same size.
Stop inventing problems, it doesn't make us inclined to believe anything else you say.

So, the hitbox of the dretch now expands one dretch size to the left and one dretch size to the right? Because that is the place where I have been hitting the dretches when we tested unlagged.

@Temple

You can get used to high ping by leading shots etc.. but you can not prepare or avoid getting killed behind the wall you just dodged to.

You can, don't get seen.  The only change is that you don't have the milliseconds of cover provided by the difference between your ping and your shooter's.

Maybe I should just close my eyes and hope the aliens don't see me? Don't get seen is not an option in infights or in goon jumping range.

[Lava Croft]

If you cannot adapt quickly to silly old unlagged, and are forced out of habit to apply to same strategy (leading) to every situation you are presented with, perhaps (actually, quite obviously, judging by your in-game performance) you aren't quite as skilled as you think you are.

I don't play any Quake games that use Unlagged, so there is no need to adapt to Unlagged. It would only screw up my aiming in the other games I play, and I rather not have that happen. Also, I like how you ignore my replies, since you obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.

Playing with unlagged builds character. If you cannot handle lousy unlagged, you just lack the proper skills, and hair.

Making silly remarks about my appearance accomplishes nothing but showcase your own lack of guts, since I still have yet to receive your portrait.

If Applejuice and St. Anger want some kind of personal intermezzo with me, I strongly suggest the two of you start a new thread, since I had intended to keep this thread free of the persona-directed nonsense you two are posting here. The discussion here is 'Unlagged', not 'Lava Croft and what Applejuice and St. Anger think about him'. If you have trouble separating these things, I am very willing to help you separate them.

Now, back to the Unlagged discussion.

Bullshit.  You have to do a lot more compensation without Unlagged.  In fact, that is established with the fact that people lead hitscan weapons. 
Unlagged innately does all the calculations necessary to compensate for latency differences.  That's the point of it.

Unlagged does not compensate for latency, it just moves the noticeable part of the latency to a different place, so to speak. Instead of you having to compensate for your own latency by leading your shots, your opponent will have to somehow compensate for your latency.

[AppleJuice]

I don't play any Quake games that use Unlagged, so there is no need to adapt to Unlagged. It would only screw up my aiming in the other games I play, and I rather not have that happen. Also, I like how you ignore my replies, since you obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.

Why do you keep grouping us together? We are two different people...not everyone who posts against you conspires with each other.  Paranoid, much?

I like you how DELETE my posts, rather than simply ignoring them.  You obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.  To reiterate:

You yourself have just said that you don't play anything that uses Unlagged.  Why are you posting about it, then, as if you have some secret knowledge of it we do not?  You obviously don't have much experience with it.  Do you bullshit this much in real life? I certainly hope not.

On topic: Most of the complaints in this thread rarely happen, in my experience.  I've played hundreds of games of unlagged, and I am rarely shot around a corner, rarely hit from "halfway across the room" (not a comment from this thread, but a common complaint).  I also almost never magically hit a dretch outside of its hitbox; I either hit it or I barely miss.  The fact that I can barely miss a hitbox tells me that unlagged doesn't exactly "assist" my aim, since I still need to directly hit the target on my screen.  Of course, if you play unlagged with 300 ping, you'll experience weird bugs like shooting a dretch a full model to the left/right, but then again...with 300 ping, what do you expect? Perfect gameplay?

When most players have under 200 ping (which is the case on most of the servers I play on), unlagged is optimal.  I've played both lagged and unlagged for a while, and I find unlagged offers more challenging gameplay.  Most unlagged dodges are extremely good in lagged, but the opposite is not true.

[Lava Croft]

Why do you keep grouping us together? We are two different people...not everyone who posts against you conspires with each other.  Paranoid, much?

Because whenever I reply to St. Anger, Applejuice replies, and whenever I reply to Applejuice, St. Anger replies. I'd almost think you two are a couple.
Look at the post above this one, and see how you are mixing up yourself with St. Anger. If you yourself are having trouble keeping yourself and St. Anger apart, how do you think other people will manage? Therefore, I quit making a distinction between the two of you, and I just named you St. Angerjuice.

I like you how DELETE my posts, rather than simply ignoring them.  You obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.

Random image spam that is completely unrelated to the thread will get deleted, no matter who posts it.

You yourself have just said that you don't play anything that uses Unlagged.  Why are you posting about it, then, as if you have some secret knowledge of it we do not?  You obviously don't have much experience with it.  Do you bullshit this much in real life? I certainly hope not.

The Unlagged used in Tremulous is the same Unlagged that is used in the well-known Quake3 mod. Since I have played a lot of Q3-Unlagged when it first came out, since I also thought it was a good solution to a age-old problem, I know very well how it plays and how it reacts to different situations. The only big difference in Tremulous is the obvious larger amount of melee combat. I already told you about Quake3 and Unlagged, but I guess you overlooked it.

When most players have under 200 ping (which is the case on most of the servers I play on), unlagged is optimal.

It still means that instead of you compensating for your own latency, your opponents will have to compensate for your latency, and you will have to compensate for theirs. I prefer to compensate for my own latency, instead of compensate for other people's latency.
Apart from that, the amount of compensation (read: leading your shots) required for a 150-200 ping is rather small.

[AppleJuice]

Because whenever I reply to St. Anger, Applejuice replies, and whenever I reply to Applejuice, St. Anger replies. I'd almost think you two are a couple.

So anything foolish you say in response to others cannot be used by someone else against you? How convenient. Disagree.

The Unlagged used in Tremulous is the same Unlagged that is used in the well-known Quake3 mod. Since I have played a lot of Q3-Unlagged when it first came out, since I also thought it was a good solution to a age-old problem, I know very well how it plays and how it reacts to different situations. The only big difference in Tremulous is the obvious larger amount of melee combat. I already told you about Quake3 and Unlagged, but I guess you overlooked it.

You repeatedly switch from "I don't play unlagged" to "but I used to, and you should have known that."  Make up your mind.

Apart from that, the amount of compensation (read: leading your shots) required for a 150-200 ping is rather small.

The same can be said of unlagged.  The amount of compensation required for your opponent's latency - if any -  is rather small.  In fact, I usually don't bother looking at my opponent's ping, since it usually bears no important effect on my overall playstyle.  If, in the rare case, a dragoon's range seems a *bit* long or wide, I press tab quickly and note its ping, and adjust accordingly.  It requires absolutely no effort.

[temple]

This compensation discussion is pointless.  You have to lead with any weapon without Unlagged.  You don't have to lead with hitscan weapons with Unlagged.  That's it.


As for 'not being seen'....that means what it means.  Smarmy comments aside, get your ass to cover.  If you got shot, that means you weren't behind cover.  The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner.  You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough.  Happens all the time.  Just now, you don't have a lag created safety-net to dance around and dodge simply because the other guy has a higher ping.

Pro-tip: Don't stop moving.  Once you get used to Unlagged, you should never stop moving until you are safe.   You really should be playing this way in the first place.  But due to differences in latency, you have been spoiled with being able to do last second, highly luck based, dodging that wouldn't cut it in optimal network situations.  None of this new gameplay, it doesn't require compensation. It demands that players play well because hitscan weapons or attacks are less forgiving.  It takes all of 1-2 games to adjust. 

[Lava Croft]

This compensation discussion is pointless.  You have to lead with any weapon without Unlagged.  You don't have to lead with hitscan weapons with Unlagged.

That's not it. Instead of leading your shots because you have to compensate for your own lag, you have to lead your movement in some way to compensate for other people's lag. That is what Unlagged does, move the latency away from the source (you with your high ping) towards your opponent (who now has to compensate for your high ping).
I fail to understand how this is an improvement over the default way handling latency.

This ties directly to the 'not being seen' subject. It's impossible to properly 'flee to safety' around a corner, since it's nigh impossible for you to gauge if your opponent is able to see you with his latency. This is (I think) what Bissig meant.
You have already been told a multitude of times how to compensate for your own latency in a normal game, yet nobody has told us how to compensate for our opponent's latency in a Unlagged game.

[AppleJuice]

You have already been told a multitude of times how to compensate for your own latency in a normal game, yet nobody has told us how to compensate for our opponent's latency in a Unlagged game.

Probably because you rarely and if so, barely need to

[SlackerLinux]

its amazing that lava agrees with me

As for 'not being seen'....that means what it means.  Smarmy comments aside, get your ass to cover.  If you got shot, that means you weren't behind cover.  The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner.  You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough.  Happens all the time.  Just now, you don't have a lag created safety-net to dance around and dodge simply because the other guy has a higher ping.

tthe bullets might not actually curve but its the same effect the game shows that your around that corner but the guy shooting can still hit you. (sometimes he see's the same thing)

seriously its not hard to shoot ahead i know with a 200ping unlagged off i shoot 1.5 secs ahead roughly
and with 50 ping i shoot about 1/2 a sec ahead.

from what i understand it takes both shots timestamps and if your where the bullet lands anytime within those -+ a few frames more you get shot

why should skilled players have to suffer for some noob that wants to play with a high ping. it should be no unlagged aka the info the server has where you are at the time of the shot being acknowledged

also moving is common sense if you move more you have less chances of being hit

[temple]

its amazing that lava agrees with me

As for 'not being seen'....that means what it means.  Smarmy comments aside, get your ass to cover.  If you got shot, that means you weren't behind cover.  The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner.  You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough.  Happens all the time.  Just now, you don't have a lag created safety-net to dance around and dodge simply because the other guy has a higher ping.

tthe bullets might not actually curve but its the same effect the game shows that your around that corner but the guy shooting can still hit you. (sometimes he see's the same thing)

seriously its not hard to shoot ahead i know with a 200ping unlagged off i shoot 1.5 secs ahead roughly
and with 50 ping i shoot about 1/2 a sec ahead.

from what i understand it takes both shots timestamps and if your where the bullet lands anytime within those -+ a few frames more you get shot

why should skilled players have to suffer for some noob that wants to play with a high ping. it should be no unlagged aka the info the server has where you are at the time of the shot being acknowledged

also moving is common sense if you move more you have less chances of being hit

Why should anyone have to shoot to ahead if the bullet travels at near instant speeds (theoretically) and there is code to ensure that?

The issue is that the bullet travels faster than you can move.  So why should you be able to avoid it?

The bullet hits you because you were in plain view not because he was lagged. 

Skill has absolutely nothing to do with it.  What skill gives someone better ping?

[Eeeew Spiders]

When most players have under 200 ping (which is the case on most of the servers I play on), unlagged is optimal.  I've played both lagged and unlagged for a while, and I find unlagged offers more challenging gameplay.  Most unlagged dodges are extremely good in lagged, but the opposite is not true.

From

unlagged_faq

Personally, I believe there's hardly a problem when all the players in a game are pinging within 100ms of each other. That describes most casual and almost all competitive games.
The remaining casual games can handle a larger ping spread easily. It's the competitive games in which the ping spread is greater than 100ms that you start having fairness issues.

The author of Unlagged acknowledges there are fairness issues with high ping and unlagged. So Unlagged only makes sense in a low ping scenario, and then is the question how useful is it really in a low ping scenario.

The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner. 

You clearly don't understand that this is a matter of perspective. How events are perceived by that attacker and by the target is different.
Unlagged only changes how the difference is being processed. Stop pretending there is only one perspective in internet gaming, there are different ones at each end of the network.
Its very logical that for one it seems that the attacker curved a bullet around the corner, and for the attacker it looks like a straight shot. Dont think latency has magically disapeared,
that is naive.

[Lava Croft]

temple keeps overlooking the fact that instead of giving a player control over how to compensate for his own latency, Unlagged removes that control from the player, giving him a false sense of 'lag correction', and lets your opponent in the dark, figuring out how to compensate for your latency.

@SlackerLinux: It has little to with 'some noob that wants to play with a high ping', it has to do with how you would like latency to be handled. It's a preference. And while it's obvious how to compensate for latency in a normal game, it's not clear how to compensate for the same latency which is still present in a Unlagged game.

@Applejuice: The fact that I know and have played Unlagged years ago means that I know very well how it works. The fact that I don't like how it works and 'feels' means I don't want to adapt my playing style to it. Really, there are people who have actually played with Unlagged before it came to Tremulous.

[EDIT] Stop typing so fast, Eeeew Spiders.

[Eeeew Spiders]

The issue is that the bullet travels faster than you can move.  So why should you be able to avoid it?

Don't fear the bullet, its the attacker you have to be afraid of. Its about

doing something about impending hitscan attacks

do you know what the word impending means?  try to look it up before keep posting the same meaningless answer about outrunning a bullet.
Nobody claims to out run a bullet, please get that in your head. It's about basing your moves on how you see your opponent move.
Unlagged makes what you see obsolete. This has been acknowledged, part of the community sees it as a problem.


[edit] ok lava  i appended

[temple]

The only preference here is:
Do you prefer hitscan weapons (instant attacks) to hit instantly?  Regardless of latency, an instant attack should be instant.  The only issue is that people have the perception that they are moving faster than a bullet and are opposed to the game server correcting that.

It appears that, no, some people do not prefer for weapons to work as they are intended. 

It's about basing your moves on how you see your opponent move.

Unlagged has nothing to do with what you are talking about.  You can't see an instant attack.  Thus, you can't avoid them.  You are arguing against that fact. 

[Eeeew Spiders]

Unlagged has nothing to do with what you are talking about.  You can't see an instant attack.  Thus, you can't avoid them.  You are arguing against that fact. 

That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.)

So dear temple, what would the author of unlagged mean with that? seems to me you are arguing against the facts. Or maybe the author of Unlagged is wrong, could also be. The more reason to not be in favor of it.

The only preference here is:
Do you prefer hitscan weapons (instant attacks) to hit instantly?

No, this is the only preference you can think off, dont talk on my behalf please.

[temple]

That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.)

That's vague.  What is the point of your using it?  How does that argue against Unlagged?
Don't make the discussion oblique because you don't like the obvious points I've made.


Unlagged is not a 'style'.  Its not a fashion.  We aren't talking about automatic transmission versus driving stick.  Unlagged corrects an inconsistency with an intended feature and its implementation.  There is no 'preference'.  Either weapons behave correctly or they don't.

[Lava Croft]

temple, Unlagged does not 'correct' anything. It merely moves the latency around to another 'place'. If you have no idea what Unlagged actually does, it might be best if you quit posting the same nonsense over and over. Whereas Eeeew Spiders constantly links you to the docs that accompany Unlagged, which are written by the creator of Unlagged, you do nothing but reply with the same nonsense over and over, not bringing up any valid points at all.
This is doing no good for your own status, nor is it doing any good for people trying to defend Unlagged's way of handling latency.

[temple]

temple, Unlagged does not 'correct' anything. It merely moves the latency around to another 'place'. If you have no idea what Unlagged actually does, it might be best if you quit posting the same nonsense over and over. Whereas Eeeew Spiders constantly links you to the docs that accompany Unlagged, which are written by the creator of Unlagged, you do nothing but reply with the same nonsense over and over, not bringing up any valid points at all.
This is doing no good for your own status, nor is it doing any good for people trying to defend Unlagged's way of handling latency.

You can't argue successfully against Unlagged, now you are arguing against me.

All Unlagged does is rewind and check.  Do not obscure the arguments by saying it moves latency.  Unlagged does not affect latency in any shape.  The players' latency are independent of Unlagged. 

Where is latency moved?  Don't make up something, explain to me using Unlagged, where the latency goes.  I don't have to prove you wrong, you will prove yourself wrong when you try to defend what you are saying.

[Lava Croft]

temple, do you seriously think that Unlagged removes the latency?

[temple]

temple, do you seriously think that Unlagged removes the latency?

No. 
All Unlagged does is rewind and check, technically speaking.
Unlagged makes instant attacks instant, in practice.

[Lava Croft]

Unlagged moves latency away from you, towards your attacker. Instead of you having to compensate for your own lag, your attacker will have compensate for your lag. This is how Unlagged works, I can't help it. But, since all you do is stare blindly at the 'my attacks are instant' mantra, you completely overlook what's really happening.

Even when presented with clear facts, written by the creator of Unlagged, you still dismiss everything brought up here, only to keep on staring blindly at your 'my attacks are instant' mantra.

I'll quit talking to you now, since you obviously don't really seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

[temple]

Unlagged moves latency away from you, towards your attacker. Instead of you having to compensate for your own lag, your attacker will have compensate for your lag. This is how Unlagged works, I can't help it. But, since all you do is stare blindly at the 'my attacks are instant' mantra, you completely overlook what's really happening.

Even when presented with clear facts, written by the creator of Unlagged, you still dismiss everything brought up here, only to keep on staring blindly at your 'my attacks are instant' mantra.

I'll quit talking to you now, since you obviously don't really seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

Unlagged doesn't change latency at all.  It's pretty silly to think that the game engine is going to change latency in the first place.  You are inventing effects of Unlagged, nothing of such actually happens like that in the engine. 

But compensation argument is dumb and I already covered that.  The attacker is going to hit if they fired when you were at the spot.  If you want to get specific, they will hit if you were at that spot during a specific window of time. 

But I can break this apart even better:
Assuming that the 'attacker' is the one firing the hitscan weapon:

If your (hitscan) attack is aimed at a target,
and Unlagged rewinds the target's position in the buffer/frame/whatever,
checks to see if the target was where you aimed,
then correctly awards the hit....
why are you leading (compensating) in the first place? 

This is independent of your or the target's latency. 


Before anyone asks, the attack has to be fired with a specific time frame to be relevant to the Unlagged check. You can't be lagged to a slideshow and pick targets off at your leisure.  It's not bullet time.

[Survivor]

I think the problem is how do you react to what you see an opponent doing.
Example:
If the opponent in your view is with his back to you, and unhelmeted and you're a dretch you can sneak up, even in a reasonably long, no cover hallway. He however turns and shoots you with that md he was carrying while you haven't seen him turn and shoot yet.
So instead of choosing dodging approach if you knew he was turned, you continue with shortest route to target because his back was turned. You feel like you've missed something which could have saved your neck, if dretches have one.
Short:
Unlagged checks attacks, not perception and decisions based on those observations.

[temple]

I think the problem is how do you react to what you see an opponent doing.

Stop trying to outrun bullets.  Behave as if you can be shot.  What do soldiers do during a firefight?  This is not rocket science.

I'll leave this alone.  I'm being argumentative for other's sake so they aren't swayed by opinion without knowing the rationale and implementation of Unlagged.

[Survivor]

Stop trying to outrun bullets.  Behave as if you can be shot.  What do soldiers do during a firefight?  This is not rocket science.

You didn't even bother to take the example for what it is, and the example is there to clearly illustrate the problem.
In the example the dretch isn't outrunning bullets, he is approaching an enemy. As such it closes the gap as fast as possible because your opponent might turn, and it starts dodging when he starts turning because of danger.
There is the disconnect which plagues unlagged. According to your theory tremmers should never change tactics either, no matter what actions or strategy they observe from their opponent.

And your analogy to soldiers during a firefight is incorrect in that they actually do have lightspeed observation, hence no lag, and certainly no possibility for unlagged and its problems. You don't see them continuously weaving their hummers over the road, afraid of an rpg round being dead on which they didn't see coming because of unlagged. They check for locations through observations, which are nearly instant in the real world.

Apparently for you this is rocketscience as I could also argue the implementation of unlagged within the lagged environment designed 1.1 damagemodel is detrimental to a point as well but that's a different discussion. 1.2 should fix this since its damagemodel is adjusted for unlagged.

[temple]

Stop trying to outrun bullets.  Behave as if you can be shot.  What do soldiers do during a firefight?  This is not rocket science.

You didn't even bother to take the example for what it is, and the example is there to clearly illustrate the problem.
In the example the dretch isn't outrunning bullets, he is approaching an enemy. As such it closes the gap as fast as possible because your opponent might turn, and it starts dodging when he starts turning because of danger.
There is the disconnect which plagues unlagged. According to your theory tremmers should never change tactics either, no matter what actions or strategy they observe from their opponent.

And your analogy to soldiers during a firefight is incorrect in that they actually do have lightspeed observation, hence no lag, and certainly no possibility for unlagged and its problems. You don't see them continuously weaving their hummers over the road, afraid of an rpg round being dead on which they didn't see coming because of unlagged. They check for locations through observations, which are nearly instant in the real world.

Apparently for you this is rocketscience as I could also argue the implementation of unlagged within the lagged environment designed 1.1 damagemodel is detrimental to a point as well but that's a different discussion. 1.2 should fix this since its damagemodel is adjusted for unlagged.

The soldiers don't have lightspeed reflexes.  For that matter, the hand can move faster than the eye, does your hand move at light speed?

Don't use hypothetical soldier scenarios, that's wasn't the point of my example.  I'm alluding to the use of cover and movement by trained soldiers and not relying on reflexes.  Soldiers don't have the luxury of jumping out the way of bullets but they manage.

Dretches have to use cover and stealth.  Any dretch running straight up to a human risks being shot.  Are you opposing that?  Maybe this is rocket science, lol!

And for the record, I play with Unlagged all the time and I can kill rifles, shotguns, or MDs with a dretch.  You just have to hustle.  You don't have that lag buffer of protection anymore.