Author Topic: Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?  (Read 33207 times)

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« on: June 15, 2006, 07:58:45 pm »
I don't know about everyone else, but in my experience 1 out of every 4-5 games ends in some .. lamer is a good word I suppose .. switching teams and deconstructing your reactor/overmind and spawns.

I like the simple ease of deconstructing a base, but the ease present in using it to the detriment of one's team is, to me, not worth the simplicity.

I would rather have deconstruction impossible than have it used in such a way. However, base moving is one of the main elements present in Tremulous, and I beleive it is a good one.

The solution I present is a combination of this concept and the simple voting system also present in Tremulous, which I also admire. (I don't know if it was there in q3 or what, but I think it is awesome, f1,f2, brilliant!)

Basically, I think that a team should have some bearing on whether or not a building should be deconstructed. At any given time, at least 2 members of the team, other than the deconstructor, must agree to the deconstruction before it can commence. Unless of course the team consists of less than 3 members, in which case the entire team must agree. (No votes will be subtracted from the yes votes-2 yes votes and one no vote equals one Yes vote)

It may sound clumsy, but I think simple terms would soon evolve to cope with the situation-

Deconstructor: base move?
Deconstructor has called a vote:Deconstruct building: Reactor? f1 yes f2 no.

People could then ask why he is moving it, and in many cases where the moving is justified (on certain levels it is almost mandatory), deconstruction will soon commence.  On the other hand, a player just switching to your side from a losing team-

Lamer:base move?
Lamer has called a vote:Deconstruct building: Reactor? f1 yes f2 no.
(Ok his name probably wouldn't be Lamer, but moving right along...)

The obvious reaction would be a torrent of no votes, and the probable kick vote would commence. An obvious side effect would be the instant identification of lamers on your team, good facts to know.

Obvious problems that I would forsee with such a system...
Lamers would turn from deconstructing noobs to vote-denying noobs and would not allow base deconstruction.
In response I say-It is easier to survive with a base intact in a lame place than survive with no base at all.(And you could always kick the player.. who knows, he might be right)

What about if there are 3 lamers on yoru team? They could do the same thing couldn't they?
I say.. Won't happen often, and if you have three lamers on your team, you're screwed anyway...

I had other problems with my system but I forgot them, surely someone else will find them, and I can and will turn my thoughts around on a dime given persuasion.
I just feel that base deconstruction by aggressive parties is a real problem   in Tremulous.

And that post was.. way way too long, I am sorry.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Henners

  • Posts: 383
  • Turrets: +10/-5
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2006, 09:35:08 pm »
There are a few flaws in this

1. The delay factor - sometimes you need to move FAST. If you are waiting for a vote you have no chance

2. You could only have one building being deconned every 30 seconds (assuming thats what the vote timer is)

3. If another vote is running for some reason, you wouldnt be able to decon

4. Deconvote spamming would be rife, legitimate and non legitmate

5. Sometimes an experienced builder needs to decon something for a reason the rest of the team isnt aware of (e.g. running in and deconning a telenode left behind after a base move that aliens are camping)

There are other issues i'm sure as well, but I think thats enough to think about for now.


A better solution to this problem may be to have a build timer when you join the team - you are not able to decon anything for say 5 minutes after team switching. It could be set up so the restriction didnt apply in the first 5 minutes of the game, so early base moves could still be carried out.

This idea of course still isnt perfect - it could still slow you down in the middle of a tense conflict and cause problems.

Another idea perhaps would be to have a decon privilidge system, where a player would call a vote and his team would decide whether or not he is responsible enough to be allowed permission to decon buildings. But again this is wide open to griefing, as it would be prone to vote spamming and people automatically voting yes without considering who is applying for it.
Official Ace Forum Attorney. If your post is stupid I will object...

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2006, 09:58:20 pm »
1.There is a delay system already in place, which prevents this high speed moving anyway,. The vote would be over by the time the next building is ready to be deconstructed. Deconstruction would happen upon successful completion of the vote, the deconstructor would not even have to be present when it commences.

2.A system could easily be made where this type of voting would be separate from all other votes, even to possibly using f3 and f4 or some other key to vote.

3.Answered by above.

4.What I like about votes in this game is they are unobtrusive (in a corner of the screen kind of way), so spamming would have no effect whatsoever, adn the offending party could be kicked. People would only be annoyed by it if they choose to be.

5.Run in, press e, run out. It would be the same as normal decon from the point of view of the player, since you don't need a vote to press e-just a vote for the deconstruction to take effect.


I don't think a build timer to join the team is a good idea, since you need to move right at the beginning of the game if you are doing a move. Unless you mean just moving with the /team command, in which case i still don't agree, they could be legitimately moving to change the balance of the game, which would require immediate building and deconstruction rights to augment the team they switched to.

The decon priviledge system sounds like a good idea though, prolly better than mine.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Ksempac

  • Posts: 261
  • Turrets: +1/-1
    • http://www.ksempac.info/blog
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2006, 10:18:18 pm »
Very bad idea.

When teams have only 1 or 2 builders there will be time when killers will be in the middle of a battle. The builder will get stuck till the killers get some spare time to vote. Do you think you will really be able to think about wheter a telenode (you dont even know which one and actually you dont care at all at the moment) should be moved when you re fighting a Tyrant ?

Moreover, if you move all the base, you will need to get the agreement for every building...2 telenodes, 1 armory, 1 medistation, 1 reactor, 4 turrets at least. That will be at least a 9 votes. This game would be more about voting than playing...
url=http://tremulous.net][/url]

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2006, 10:22:37 pm »
That's why only 2 other members need to give the deconstruction its blessing. Lesser buildings might not need to invoke a vote.

And how hard is it to press f4? People already incorporate so much into their routine, strafing, dodging etc. The occasional vote would not be much of a hardship to do in the occasional breather.
It's not like you have to vote, priorities such as a tyrant would of course come first If a tyrant is attacking nobdoy should be deconstructing anyway.

Again, the eventual goal is only to prevent malicious deconstruction, and I think the building priviledge system idea would solve the problem.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Survivor

  • Posts: 1660
  • Turrets: +164/-159
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2006, 11:04:14 pm »
Quote from: "Markimedes"
And how hard is it to press f4? People already incorporate so much into their routine, strafing, dodging etc. The occasional vote would not be much of a hardship to do in the occasional breather.

Yeah, but the F1 and F2 keys are away from the regular keys, causing a delay in reaction time.

Quote from: "Markimedes"

It's not like you have to vote, priorities such as a tyrant would of course come first If a tyrant is attacking nobdoy should be deconstructing anyway.

The tyrants attacking may be the reason for moving certain buildings like armoury and nodes.
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2006, 11:09:12 pm »
If it is an necessity, players willl find a way to make it happen. I woudl rather have that inconvenience than have the inconvenience of spawning in a base without a reactor, or simply not spawning at all, due to one lamer.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Catalyc

  • Posts: 214
  • Turrets: +2/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2006, 11:52:05 pm »
Relocation should only be considered in the first 1 or 2 minutes of each round, after aliens have access to marauders and dragoons, humans should only move armoury/dc/med as far as important buildings go. Moving reactor after getting s2 is just stupid against any decent alien team.

Your proposed system has several flaws as it was said before, and one of the biggest problems is that there are more sucky team players than crappy builders, most people don't give a damn about their base so they would vote no for relocation, not counting the time it takes for them to actually pass the vote in case they would want to move.
ttp://tremmapping.pbwiki.com/

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2006, 12:08:19 am »
I just think the existing system is more flawed, there will always be people who want to abuse or destroy any given system, and I just think it is way too easy in the current system.

/team humans
*click construction kit*
*click ok*
e
/team aliens

Game over. I don't care if my system is used or something better or worse is used, as long as deconstruction is made less of an exploit. It is just.. very annoying to have every few games be a complete dud due to someone, anyone, who has the lame idea to destroy your base with your own equipment.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Catalyc

  • Posts: 214
  • Turrets: +2/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2006, 12:12:16 am »
Sounds like you need to play on servers with proper admins.
ttp://tremmapping.pbwiki.com/

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2006, 12:14:12 am »
I don't think a server should have to have admins to properly function, not even remotely.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

werepants

  • Posts: 69
  • Turrets: +0/-0
    • http://www.nine18design.com
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2006, 12:38:53 am »
I have to agree with Mark... something needs to be done about this.
I think the voting system is plausible, but some conditions should be set.  For instance, make a vote required *only* for deconning reactor or armory, and *only* require a vote after the first 2 minutes of a game.

This would prevent unnecessary voting, prevent the worst of lamering, and allow for base moves.  F3 and F4 seem like the best options to me.

Stof

  • Posts: 1343
  • Turrets: +1/-1
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2006, 01:10:37 am »
This is a game, not a voting simulation.

Lame players shall be the ones to punish, not regular players. Also, what prevents the lamers from gaining 100 credits and start deconstructing the base with a painsaw ? On that point, if that horrible voting system is used, I'd do the same to workaround that crap !
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2006, 03:12:13 am »
Thing is, they don't deconstruct with a painsaw, they do it with a construction kit (note-construction, not deconstruction.. heh). This would prevent that. Someone pulling out a pain saw and sawing the reactor is a tad bit more noticeable and noisy then using a kit. In any case, it would slow laming down considerably.

I don't see it as punishing good not lame players, simply as rewarding the entire community by thwarting lame ones. Me, I would rather press f4 every so often than come back to a deconstructed base.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

kozak6

  • Posts: 1089
  • Turrets: +20/-26
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2006, 03:33:24 am »
This whole voting system sounds absolutely terrible.

The proposed gain isn't worth all of the trouble or delay.  Sometimes you need to move something damn quickly, and don't have a minute for everyone to make up their mind.

Besides, often, I don't think enough players would vote to make this worthwhile.  The other day, I was on a noob inundated server, and we had a hard time kicking a base killer.  Now, kicking a base killer is a simple thing.  If I have to explain that I want to move something important, I don't want to sit there for 5 minutes begging my team for it until the structure gets sniped or destroyed.

Besides, I am sure the smarter lamers will figure out to just painsaw the base.  I mean, 100 credits.  You can get that damn quick.

And then where will we be?  Stuck with a completely useless and frustrating system.

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2006, 05:04:42 am »
I have never, not once, seen a deconstructor kicked before the damage is done.

Which is why I think a solution should be found- If nothing comes of it, at least I can say I have tried. I don't care if you come up with your own solution, I just don't like losing illegitimately.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Basilisco

  • Posts: 592
  • Turrets: +24/-5
    • http://wilhelmrahn.googlepages.com/
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2006, 07:34:16 am »
I remembering writing down the "unbuild-reactor vote" thing. It looks like a great idea, but there could be so many problem. Specially when moving at the beginning of the game.

I'd say is better to have the 2-5 min ckit ban (for players who joined the game recently.

And a kick-vote just for the team. So if humans want to kick a builder or a  feeder, or whoever, wont have to xplain the other team why to kick.

Stof

  • Posts: 1343
  • Turrets: +1/-1
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2006, 10:02:48 am »
Quote from: "Markimedes"
Thing is, they don't deconstruct with a painsaw, they do it with a construction kit (note-construction, not deconstruction.. heh). This would prevent that. Someone pulling out a pain saw and sawing the reactor is a tad bit more noticeable and noisy then using a kit. In any case, it would slow laming down considerably.

I don't see it as punishing good not lame players, simply as rewarding the entire community by thwarting lame ones. Me, I would rather press f4 every so often than come back to a deconstructed base.

You never noticed the awful deeconstruction timer you get when you deconstruct a reactor or another big building ? With that, it gets faster to deconstruct a few buildings ( ie, more than 1 ) with the painsaw than with the ckit.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2006, 05:42:59 pm »
You get a deconstruction timer when you deconstruct ANY building..
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Stof

  • Posts: 1343
  • Turrets: +1/-1
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2006, 11:12:55 pm »
Quote from: "Markimedes"
You get a deconstruction timer when you deconstruct ANY building..

Yesk, but when you deconstruct a reactor, it fells like the timer is at least twice longer !
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Markimedes

  • Posts: 37
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2006, 11:16:52 pm »
That's cuz your are waiting to get owned by dretches though.
roud member of GuN.
Um.. yeah. I'm the lame member, designated builder, etc.
<--- so totally l33t
And I have nothing to do with Archimedes, he died a long time ago.

Neo

  • Posts: 760
  • Turrets: +2/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2006, 11:50:05 pm »
Also clicking a lot while its still counting down does slow it down, due to the red flash thing. Also teaches you to do reactor moves with 2 builders so there is no wait.

Pilo T

  • Posts: 16
  • Turrets: +2/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2006, 02:58:07 am »
add the vote and remove the cool down timer on the constructor after deconstruction, so it'll generally take the same time as currently, but tkers will be powerless.
url=www.freewebs.com/magnumpink][/url]

kozak6

  • Posts: 1089
  • Turrets: +20/-26
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2006, 06:23:37 am »
Hmm.

Another thing I noticed is that the C-Kit has to be equipped for the timer to run down.  If you pull out your blaster to toy with a Dretch, the timer will freeze in place until you equip it again.

Vector_Matt

  • Posts: 732
  • Turrets: +2/-1
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2006, 03:10:08 pm »
Quote from: "kozak6"
Hmm.

Another thing I noticed is that the C-Kit has to be equipped for the timer to run down.  If you pull out your blaster to toy with a Dretch, the timer will freeze in place until you equip it again.
I think that that part should be changed, sometimes you need that blaster to scare aliens away from you newly building structure and you realy don't want the build timer to take forever.

icono[celt]

  • Posts: 14
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2006, 08:57:35 pm »
I agree on the new topic, the timer should run down regardless of whether or not you actually have the kit equipped.  

As for the vote for reactor thing, no way.  Lamers all ready spam the chat, and votes, and can destroy a base with or without a c kit.  The only really effective way I can see in this is to have admins right there to kick/ban losers like that.

One idea I had was make it so the structures are all immune to team damage, and you vote on your two or three builders.  You'd also start on the same team as you joined last game, so there could be long term strategy, and not just that sudden jump into the game where you can't do a move since everyone spawned with a c kit.  It isn't perfect, but then deconners are very far from perfect.

Stof

  • Posts: 1343
  • Turrets: +1/-1
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2006, 09:17:54 pm »
Quote from: "icono[celt
"]One idea I had was make it so the structures are all immune to team damage, and you vote on your two or three builders.  You'd also start on the same team as you joined last game, so there could be long term strategy, and not just that sudden jump into the game where you can't do a move since everyone spawned with a c kit.  It isn't perfect, but then deconners are very far from perfect.

FF immune buildings :P Tyrants will LOVE those fire proof lucifer proof turrets.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Stakhanov

  • Posts: 64
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2006, 06:42:14 pm »
Instead of calling a confusing vote , why not require 2 players to deconstruct a building ? It would enforce some basic teamwork for base moving (instead of being open to anyone's whims) , and we could drop the deconstruct timer that way. As said above , if there are several lamers on a team then it is screwed regardless...

Also I think all alien forms should have the option to evolve back to a granger. It should be allowed to sacrifice your evolution for the team when the eggs have been destroyed.

Quaoar

  • Posts: 152
  • Turrets: +1/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2006, 08:19:23 pm »
Quote from: "Stakhanov"
Instead of calling a confusing vote , why not require 2 players to deconstruct a building ? It would enforce some basic teamwork for base moving (instead of being open to anyone's whims) , and we could drop the deconstruct timer that way. As said above , if there are several lamers on a team then it is screwed regardless...

Also I think all alien forms should have the option to evolve back to a granger. It should be allowed to sacrifice your evolution for the team when the eggs have been destroyed.


1. Because you can't always afford two builders. In smaller games, getting another builder might steal up to 33% of your fighting power for a mere technicality. I guess for a reactor move it'd be ok, but sometimes you need to move FAST, and ALL anti-lamer decon protection basically stops you from playing most effectively.

2. The second that happens, Aliens will win 96% of the time. Instantly.

nex

  • Posts: 6
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Base Deconstruction, pros, cons, discussion?
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 02:03:27 am »
this is a quite longish post, thus the most important point right at the beginning, in a nutshell: there's no reason why moving stuff should be exactly the same as deconstructing something, then constructing something. by making the game aware of something just being moved to another place, other instances of deconstructing can be restricted and dealt with much better. also, some types of griefing are very easy to detect and should not require a player to initiate a kick-vote (which is something that can be abused and is often turned off anyways).

now for the details, in all their rambling glory: moving stuff (as opposed to deconstructing for good) should be a non-issue, as it's trivial to solve. here is one way to do it: for genuine deconstruction, have a separate key, or use a double-tap of the decon key, something like that. now when you use the decon key as usual, the building isn't deconstructed yet, it is just marked for moving. its potentially free build points are displayed separate from the usual build points, or builders just get a message, such as "<player> marked a <structure> for moving". for the builder who initiated the moving, the timer ticks down as usual, as if he/she deconstructed already. as soon as a building of the same type is constructed somewhere else, the original one is removed as usual, as if deconstructed. in order to prevent exploitation of that feature, the new structure will start with as many health points as the original one had. bonus feature: you can mark, say, a turret for moving and then construct a tesla generator; this works as long as the additional 4 build points are in the ordinary build point pool. so the turret is transformed into the tesla, and of course you can't transform a turret into a telenode or a hive into an egg. only buildings of the same general type.

with such a mechanism in place, deconstructing can be restricted, while moving is as easy as ever. no multiple players required (but permitted) to take part in it, no voting, no hassle. deconstructing reactor/overmind can be totally prohibited, as this is only needed as part of moving.

however, all of this is moot if FF is on and players can just trash their own buildings. i have a suggestion for that. this is all still assuming that *moving* is as easy and unrestricted as ever. it is important to be able to kick/ban griefers and lamers. whenever a vote is initiated, typically half of the players don't know the reason. this has bad consequences. current version clients are sometimes buggy and the vote does not refer to the intended player (or the initiator of the vote just hit the wrong line in the GUI). still, people vote YES, without knowing why, and innocents are kicked, while the griefer is still there.

this can easily be improved when it's about harming your own team: people get "minus-points" for that. deconstructing a turret/acid tube, or destroying one, or killing a team-mate all get you one boo-boo-point. spawns are worth two points, reactor/overmind four points (defense computer 3 or 4). when a player gets four points within 10 minutes, the server *automatically* initiates a kick-vote and also tells players the *reason*. so if someone deconstructed with consent from his/her teammates, they'll just vote no and no kick happens. but if it was maliciously, they can kick him out. another kick-reason that is easy to detect is spamming. i would suggest that unlike the normal kick-voting, this special kind can _not_ be turned off by admins of pub servers.

i also have ideas about how to restrict construction to proven/trusted builders, but as far as deconstructing is concerned, i think those ideas are pretty worthless, as you can still trash your own buildings with firepower if only FF is on, and i think FF should be on ^_^. however, i think the auto-vote for kicking griefers would be easy to implement and very hard to exploit. the base-moving system would not be as trivial to implement, so it's debatable whether the effort would pay off. however, i think it's obvious that it is better than other proposed solutions. it doesn't require players who are in the middle of a fight to concern themselves with votes about stuff going on potentially somewhere else entirely and it doesn't require two or more builders.

there is an alternative that is much simpler to implement, but restricted to one and the same builder doing the deconstructing and constructing when moving something: just implement the boo-boo-point system, with this minor addition: if i decon something, i am burdened with the appropriate amount of minus-points, but in case this would trigger a vote, the system waits a minute. if i rebuild a structure of the same type within a minute, the boo-boo-points are removed again. this is really simplistic and could be exploited in horrible ways ... still it might be better than nothing.