Anti-Camping Ideas? [updated]

[kevlarman]

the easy way to not stop camping but remedy it is to build forward base(s). consisting of booster, egg, hive and tube.

Considering aliens don't really camp anyway, and humans just don't build forward bases, your idea is flawed.
Camping has been a part of Tremulous since the dawn of time. To be Human is to Camp.

aliens do really camp anyway, often much more than humans. 2 tyrants on each entrance to the human base bitching about humans not coming out to feed them^W^W^W^W^W^Wcamping is a common occurence.

[player1]

... and, to complete the scenario, if the Humans are in their house, and the Aliens are on their lawn, then it is indeed the Aliens who are camping, while the Humans are just kickin' it (wussy-style) on the couch.

[Kaleo]

... and, to complete the scenario, if the Humans are in their house, and the Aliens are on their lawn, then it is indeed the Aliens who are camping, while the Humans are just kickin' it (wussy-style) on the couch.

Actually, player1 is absolutely right (as usual).

It is not the humans camping, as it is their base and they own it, and so therefore, sitting in it like leprous ducks would merely living in ones home.
The aliens, on the other hand, are the ones camping since it is they who have erected tents outside the human base and proceed to toast human smores over a cozy campfire.

[The Me]

Kaleo, if it was to be a gun that directly supplies health to a player, I agree, it would definitely have to have some "disadvantage" while trying to heal a moving player. Perhaps remove the ability to heal a moving player altogether, making the medic more like a medipad and less like an infinite medikit.

I do like player1 idea better. Perhaps I can suggest a modification? Instead of a limited amount of aid, how about a time limitation (on top of the application time he suggested), For instance, the player can have a max amount of "aid packets" at a time, say 3, when there player has used one or more, it takes a certain amount of time to regenerate it, say 15 seconds. This would prevent aid spam. For those who are confused, I will try to describe it being in use in-game. Imagine the medic healing a guy, this uses one aid packet leaving him with only two, after use, it begins to recharge, 15 seconds later (unless he heals another player, which would pause the recharge time) he will gain back one of his aid packets. Note: only one aid packets would recharge at a time.

[Kaleo]

I would suggest download UrT and seeing how the medkit works in that. Thats sort of what I was getting at.

[The Me]

Something like this for Tremulous could be better suited if it was more like a medic "melee weapon", not unlike the Strogg healer in ET:QW.

I mean this:
Wounded Player is approached by Medic Player.
Medic Player equips his First Aid tool.
Medic Player holds down attack to heal Wounded Player.
Both players may move while healing, but healing will be slower, and they must remain in close coherency.

Well, that was basically a cross between UrT's medkit and ET:QW's Strogg medkit.

I am on a mac and, as far as I know there is no UrT for mac (I could boot up on windows and download it but I don't think its worth downloading it just to see the medkit) So, sorry if I do not completely understand what you are saying, but what I can get out of your post (quote above) You are describing a TF2-like "First Aid tool" gun with less range and slower healing while moving.

[doomagent13]

Personally, I think the BP system should be rewritten so that you get a certain amount of BP per creep/power area.  For example, humans get 102 BP from the reactor for main base.  Then, each repeater would provide 60-70 BP for use around it.  Aliens would get something similar, although all eggs would use BP from the overmind.  Any building within more than one creep/power area would count as being in both, so as to prevent super-powered alien bases from BP stackage.  To go along with this, the repeater would become an S1 buildable.  This would allow both teams to make reasonable forward bases without substantial drains on their main base.  Such bases would likely require near continuous support from players in order to maintain, so you could not just take over ever larger portions of the map.  Just as a note, the actual BP amounts may need adjustment in order to achieve a reasonable balance.

The other main idea I have had would be to make an advanced dretch.  It would be very similar to the normal dretch, although it gets a pounce ability.  Immediately upon death, it would explode for 100-200 damage.

[gimhael]

Personally, I think the BP system should be rewritten so that you get a certain amount of BP per creep/power area.  For example, humans get 102 BP from the reactor for main base.  Then, each repeater would provide 60-70 BP for use around it.  Aliens would get something similar, although all eggs would use BP from the overmind.  Any building within more than one creep/power area would count as being in both, so as to prevent super-powered alien bases from BP stackage.  To go along with this, the repeater would become an S1 buildable.  This would allow both teams to make reasonable forward bases without substantial drains on their main base.  Such bases would likely require near continuous support from players in order to maintain, so you could not just take over ever larger portions of the map.  Just as a note, the actual BP amounts may need adjustment in order to achieve a reasonable balance.

You should try a game PornServ, this is basically how it works on that server.

[The Me]

Personally, I think the BP system should be rewritten so that you get a certain amount of BP per creep/power area.  For example, humans get 102 BP from the reactor for main base.  Then, each repeater would provide 60-70 BP for use around it.  Aliens would get something similar, although all eggs would use BP from the overmind.  Any building within more than one creep/power area would count as being in both, so as to prevent super-powered alien bases from BP stackage.  To go along with this, the repeater would become an S1 buildable.  This would allow both teams to make reasonable forward bases without substantial drains on their main base.  Such bases would likely require near continuous support from players in order to maintain, so you could not just take over ever larger portions of the map.  Just as a note, the actual BP amounts may need adjustment in order to achieve a reasonable balance.

I had that exact idea too (refer to the giant scratched out part of the main post). Apparently, it has been done before.

Your BP idea on the other hand is a lot better and in fact has already been implemented on tHc servers in europe. I'll try to get back to you about it if you're interested.

[Kaleo]

I am on a mac and, as far as I know there is no UrT for mac

http://www.urbanterror.net/page.php?6

[The Me]

I am on a mac and, as far as I know there is no UrT for mac

http://www.urbanterror.net/page.php?6

Thanks, last time I went there was a year ago when TRaK told me about it. At that time i couldn't find a mac version. (wouldn't  it be easier to just explain how the medkit works that way everyone reading it wont have to download UrT to understand?)

[Kaleo]

Except it's kinda hard to explain the bugs that they pass off as game mechanics.

[Urcscumug]

Although the discussion has kind of veered off on a tangent; it seems to me that the simplest possible implementation of a "heal gun" is making ckit wielders able to heal humans as well as structures. Just point it at a teammate and use the repair button.

Finer implementation details to be discussed; such as whether the target should be required to stand still for this to work or just merely within close distance to the healer. Whether multiple ckits healing at the same time should compound their effects. Whether ckit users will be able to see humans' health like they do with structures. How much healing per time unit they can do. Whether using the ckit in close proximity to 2+ players heals all of them. Etc.

I have to admit that combining what used to be a suicide run (psaw+helmet+larmor) with a healer and 1-2 long range weapon wielders could be very intriguing and may very well add a whole new dynamic to human gameplay. It basically allows them to go out and hit hard as soon as S2. If you're looking for things to encourage teamplay and prevent camping and base/turret addiction, this may be the answer: formations where humans know they need to rely on each other for success.

In turn, it may also force aliens to work more as a team, which is something they don't really tend to do outside of S3 rushes or dretchstorms. I've once had the opportunity to see a rant working together with a couple of dretches. It was a frighteningly efficient killing machine. Sadly, you don't often see something like that (on public servers anyway).

FWIW, such battle formations are well known in RPG games, where players with different abilities work together for greater impact. Usually, in a RPG you'd combine a "warrior" type (melee combat and great endurance) with a healing mage and with long range attacks (magical or arrows). In fact, such formations are even described in Heroic Fantasy literature (Clayton Emery's "Outcasts" comes to mind). The explanation for their popularity is simple: it's a mobile triangle formation which possesses both long and short range damage capability and has the ability to heal as it goes.

A quote from Outcasts:

The formation centered around the axeman. A strong fighter with an axe was a terrible thing in battle, for he could knock down enemies like wheat. An axeman could smash through any defense, go where he wanted, and stop anything: it was sergeants with axes that surrounded a king on the field. Yet an axeman needed swordsmen to watch and protect him from a sudden thrust, for he needed both hands on his weapon and he carried no shield. His swordsmen were safe as long as they stayed close (but not too close). With a magician behind them to weave spells and confuse the enemy, the formation was almost invincible.

[The Me]

Urcscumug, Thanks for the input, I like the idea of giving the ability to heal to the ckit the amount of time between +health could be set to balance it out and it would essentially be just like healing a turret. Also, requiring the healer to stay close to the player would give them a challenge and allow for a skill level of medics. I actually like this idea the best so far. Its simple, easy to apply, and it works. Good job!

o btw games like that RPG you were describing are also referred to as class-based games

[GlobalWarming]

From all the posts, I have to cite some of the ones were more interesting for me:

The Me (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9445.msg144651#msg144651)

Add and incentive to go out of the base and then that should eliminate camping all together.

I will comment about this at the end...

The weaker rets require the humans to camp because if they leave, one mara can take out their defenses

I totally agree that rets need to be improved in 1.2 and not slowed down... Also the force fields in TremX are a very good idea (intsead of using arms to block tyrants)

zybork (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9445.msg147590#msg147590)

Tremulous IS unbalanced...

One of the reasons of that is that people new in Tremulous will tend to join human team... why? because of the same reason I did it... We know other games (aka Battlefield, UnrealTournament, Halo, etc...) and we know how to shoot and run... but for aliens is different... it is not easy to just start with them without getting kicked because of feeding. So in my personal opinion, aliens tend to have more experienced players in average... so, humans tend to have more newbs in their teams and thus camp more... (experienced players may be afraid to leave their base in hands of noobs, and noobs are afraid to become alien's food and being kicked out of the game).

temple (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9445.msg147772#msg147772)

My suggestion is that some (not all) humans weapons should cost some credits to reload.  That way, you have to get kills to fuel camping or whatever.  Eventually people have to leave the base to do something instead of prolonging the game.

Excellent idea, I think, putting it together with "Kage Mane" ideas: (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9445.msg152167#msg152167)

a 3medkits of 100HP in one package ...

I think humans should be able to carry (and buy) more ammo and heal packages... (maybe slowing them down, as in other games).

Also, the rant and the luci could be removed.  I think the game is a whole lot more fun pre Stage 3 for either team.  Once the game hits Stage 3, it grinds to a halt.

I agree with this too... that creates a grater unbalance between teams... Maybe it would be good only to increase defense (HP) and not attack in S3.

Finally my personal opinion: (sorry taking this long)

I think one of the main reason of Humans camping are the maps... I'm developing my second map (almost finished) and my main focus is how to prevent humans camping... I think there is a huge place for improvement ... For example, if the human base is in "one-exit" room... you will not see but camping, however, If you offer quick exits, humans may take it more often. One of the several things I will add in my map for this purpose, for example, are some med stations and a fixed armories around the map, so they can get out knowing that they don't need to return to base for ammo/health. Open areas (not so open) for jetters, and adding also special triggers around the map (I'm not talking about arcade mod) to increase fun, also helps... and so on...

this are my 10cents....

[frazzler]

My idea to prevent camping is designate certain 'zones'. If we take ATCS for example, Alien Base is zone 1. Alien hallway part 1, 2 and 3 (the certain slopes with red lights in them) & Alien entrance. If you are in a certain zone for more than 20 seconds, you are camping & you will slowly lose health 5-10% per second. If you are a builder class or if you are in your own zone (Human in Human base) then the camp does not count and you will not lose health. Lets have an example. If a tyrant is waiting outside human base (human entrance) for 20 seconds, the Tyrant will lose 10% of its health until the tyrant leaves the human entrance (eg, moves to the bunker).  HOWEVER, If a human is standing in human base, human entrance, human hallway 1, 2 or 3, then they will not lose health. OR, if the human/alien is of a builder class then they will not lose health. While this won't stop camping, it will give the camped class a few seconds to regroup, or form an attack on the campee.

[Asvarox]

Open areas (not so open) for jetters,

This way you allow campers to jetcamp.

My idea to prevent camping is designate certain 'zones'. If we take ATCS for example, Alien Base is zone 1. Alien hallway part 1, 2 and 3 (the certain slopes with red lights in them) & Alien entrance. If you are in a certain zone for more than 20 seconds, you are camping & you will slowly lose health 5-10% per second. If you are a builder class or if you are in your own zone (Human in Human base) then the camp does not count and you will not lose health. Lets have an example. If a tyrant is waiting outside human base (human entrance) for 20 seconds, the Tyrant will lose 10% of its health until the tyrant leaves the human entrance (eg, moves to the bunker).  HOWEVER, If a human is standing in human base, human entrance, human hallway 1, 2 or 3, then they will not lose health. OR, if the human/alien is of a builder class then they will not lose health. While this won't stop camping, it will give the camped class a few seconds to regroup, or form an attack on the campee.

Removing health is basically bad idea, it just annoys people (=much less fun), also, if I want to move base to the bunker, nobody would be able to cover me. Not to mention that some epic battles takes much more than 20 secs.

[UniqPhoeniX]

My idea to prevent camping is designate certain 'zones'. If we take ATCS for example, Alien Base is zone 1. Alien hallway part 1, 2 and 3 (the certain slopes with red lights in them) & Alien entrance. If you are in a certain zone for more than 20 seconds, you are camping & you will slowly lose health 5-10% per second. If you are a builder class or if you are in your own zone (Human in Human base) then the camp does not count and you will not lose health. Lets have an example. If a tyrant is waiting outside human base (human entrance) for 20 seconds, the Tyrant will lose 10% of its health until the tyrant leaves the human entrance (eg, moves to the bunker).  HOWEVER, If a human is standing in human base, human entrance, human hallway 1, 2 or 3, then they will not lose health. OR, if the human/alien is of a builder class then they will not lose health. While this won't stop camping, it will give the camped class a few seconds to regroup, or form an attack on the campee.

So you want to take hp from those humans that make it to the alien side of the map, but not those who camp? Also it seriously discourages building outposts. If there is a rant waiting outside human base, get 3 shotgun+helm+armor, and kill it. And try to cover each other, so the rant can't finish any of you off in first 2 hits.

[mooseberry]

My idea to prevent camping is designate certain 'zones'. If we take ATCS for example, Alien Base is zone 1. Alien hallway part 1, 2 and 3 (the certain slopes with red lights in them) & Alien entrance. If you are in a certain zone for more than 20 seconds, you are camping & you will slowly lose health 5-10% per second. If you are a builder class or if you are in your own zone (Human in Human base) then the camp does not count and you will not lose health. Lets have an example. If a tyrant is waiting outside human base (human entrance) for 20 seconds, the Tyrant will lose 10% of its health until the tyrant leaves the human entrance (eg, moves to the bunker).  HOWEVER, If a human is standing in human base, human entrance, human hallway 1, 2 or 3, then they will not lose health. OR, if the human/alien is of a builder class then they will not lose health. While this won't stop camping, it will give the camped class a few seconds to regroup, or form an attack on the campee.

Wow.

So you think the ones in the enemies base should be constantly losing health? While the campers are ok? What about moving your base? What about like someone else mentioned long battles. Plus that is just so annoying to have happen to you.

Summary: You sir, are an idiot.

Summary of the Summary: OBJECTION!

[GlobalWarming]

Open areas (not so open) for jetters,

This way you allow campers to jetcamp.

Yes, you are right... that is why I specified "not so open" to prevent jetcamp... even in atcs, I think, bunker area its quite open... don't you think? I mean the idea is not that high, not that low... something in between which allow humans to use jetters but allow aliens to hunt some...

[UniqPhoeniX]

You sir, are an idiot.

Maybe, but here he just posted a totally useless and not thought through idea.

[frazzler]

Perhaps a certain amount of health should be taken away from the players that get X amount of kills in one life. This would not only discourage killwhoring and camping all in one, but some people may be more keen to show how 1337 they are by having 10 more than X kills in one life. This also helps the noobs who can only manage one kill every life or so. The 1337 pro peeps can still contribute to the team, but if they camp, then they have less health, making them easier to kill. If the 1337 pros get X amount of health taken away it should really encourage thoughtful gameplay instead of kamikaze rushes.

[UniqPhoeniX]

They will just suicide and start killing again. Please don't post ideas like this. It is better to encourage teamwork or reward successful rushes then it is to discourage camping/killwhoring since either may be needed for short time at some point and most such methods are frustrating for the players.

[Man of Tacos]

Well I think to stop jet camping the jetpacks need fuel. It refuels when you buy ammo.

[bacon665]

They do this on pornserv you get about 2-3 minutes

[Bissig]

Well I think to stop jet camping the jetpacks need fuel. It refuels when you buy ammo.

This does indeed sound very interesting! Also: shut off that damn noise please!

[SlackerLinux]

Well I think to stop jet camping the jetpacks need fuel. It refuels when you buy ammo.

done already

but you don't buy fuel it regenerates over time
atm the defaults i think is 1min in air or something but id have to check my patch to be sure

this is my version im talking about i don't know how pornserv version works prob same way

[bob0]

The solution to camping is Domination.  Players need to go outside their base to capture domination points to get more BP.

[frazzler]

There is no camping issue, there is a player issue.

As I find it, the only people who camp, are either noobs, or killwhores. The noobs need easy kills because they can't face down the skilled players, and the killwhores just want kills. The people who actually understand the equation: no base+humans=bad, rush in and destroy the base, gaining enough kills while inside the base to supply their next attack. These people normally end up with a decent killcount, and actually contributed to the game.

Take clan-wars and scrims for example. There is no camping issue here (if the clans are good). Humans are outside alien base protecting the luci-suit who rushes the eggs half the time, goons are covering the tyrant who rushes the RC the other half. There is no camping problem, there is simply a problem with the players. I suggest playing on a server with less killwhores and noobs, and more people who actually understand how to win a game.

[UniqPhoeniX]

There is no camping issue, there is a player issue.

You can't always find enough good players on a team to win the game in a reasonable amount of time, as camping allows the enemy team to easily delay the game for a very long time, and THAT is an issue. The ability to make the game boring by doing nothing = issue. Domination does solve it if done right.