New race.

[rotacak]

player1: Again, learn to read (and like I see, also learn to write). "Also maps can be dedicated to only two team games or only for three teams games." Notice: without rebuilding maps.

[Syntac]

also learn to write

He was being sarcastic. I mean seriously, how is it possible for one person to generate this much duh?

[player1]

@rotacak: You still haven't addressed the issue of models and animations, let alone gameplay mechanics, a combat system, three-way balance (overall, at each of the three stages, and at the PvP and squad-skirmish levels). You can flame me all you want with your ill-conceived replies and ad hominem attacks ("learn to read"? I can read and write circles around you and your broken-English-as-a-second-language babblings all day long, you incoherent, simpering, non-expressive, angry, little gnome). Learn to think. Learn to write. Learn to write a real reply which addresses the main concerns of a post, and not the most minor details.

Maps that are simply re-purposed for a gameplay for which they were NOT DESIGNED are not going to be fun to play. Or, as you said to begin with: "wildly unbalanced", and "it'll never get made". You* need new models. You need to provide animations for said models. You need to decide on a combat system for your new Third Team. You therefore need either new weapons or new classes or a whole, new, unique, original, third type of advancement, attack, cooperation, defense, and construction, and therefore even more models (and animations), and/or a lot more code. You need to make maps which are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR THREE-TEAM gameplay, sir, not just use layout to move stuff around and shoehorn in three factions into maps clearly NOT DESIGNED FOR THREE-TEAM PLAY. You need to put a team together (unless you plan to do it all yourself).

Can you make a half-assed, crappy version which no-one but a few people who play on one server will ever play? Yes. Will it ever be more than a shitty LOLmod? Hell, fucking no. That's why it has been discussed ad infinitum, and never made, and therefore never played. Before engaging me in a "lurn 2 raed" flamewar, how about proposing some solutions to the problems besides, "u nevah heard o' layout?". Yes, we all know about layout, you are not the only genius in the world, Mr. Mapping Majesty. It still speaks volumes about your ability to design maps or gameplay mods when you think all you have to do is tweak somebody else's work, and voila, new game. Maps should be designed with gameplay in mind, FIRST AND FOREMOST. All other considerations are secondary. Wildly unbalanced is not fun for the great variety of players, however much you yourself may enjoy a clusterfuck.

*Note: Maybe you don't actually speak English, but the use of the pronoun "you" is also taken to mean "someone" or "a person", so the next time you want to insult someone about their reading or writing ability, at least know what the fuck you are talking about, my non-native-speaking friend. Understand that you don't perfectly understand, and chill the fuck out. Good day to you, sir.

@Archangel: How about magical ghost space-ninja pirate fantastic animal people, like the Poltergeist Necromantic Taikonautic Samurai Buccaneer Winged-Unicorn-Girl Priestess with Invisibility-while-Flying, Stillshield, the Psychic Sai, the Helm of Far-Scrying and the Staff of Rebirth? An RPG race with really weak powers and artifacts, which can accrue and are cumulative, with high hit points but low attack-damage, who can do magical stuff and who only really get powerful if they are stealthy enough to stay alive and gather a large cache of abilities and weapons/items? At least they would be different.

[rotacak]

player1:
That is better reply than you previous "lol".

1) I was expected when someone start attacking my english. You won, gongratulations.

2) We can be happy that you aren't tremulous developer, because othervise we had only tremulous singleplayer. "Two teams? OMG! You need alien models! Alien buildables! Balance! Maps with two base location! Firing against meele attack? You are crazy bad english babbling Rotacak! And you need forum moderators too. So STFU and leave our singleplayer alone."

3) You can still repeat "All maps have to be rebuilded or created new for third race version", but that is simple not true. It's only your wish, to post every thinkable problems and make from them true.

4) You forget post "FAIL" picture.

[Amanieu]

I am willing to code this, but I need someone to make models & sounds, and also a plan of what you want exactly.

[player1]

@Amanieu: I was working on a possible fully-fleshed scenario last night, and will post it later, when I get the chance.

@rotacak: If any map can work for any mod, why not just import maps for Tremulous from other games? Why make new maps? Because maps are designed with specific gameplay in mind, and they need to be a cerain size, and built more around having the teams the same distance apart at the start, and more on a 120-degree axis-of-separation, than the current maps, to be really useful as three-team maps. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, or that the result is PLAYABLE.

P.S. If you don't want to be attacked for your English, then cut the shit with the "learn to read" replies. It just makes you look stupid, when you then proceed to write in broken English. In other words: sorry, pal, but you brought it on yourself. And yes, when you start a project, it's often helpful to list "every thinkable problem" and then try to find solutions for them. Its called a development roadmap. As Amanieu stated above, even with a coder of his ability, you still need models and sounds. Plus all-new layouts for whatever maps you decide to use. In future, since you don't understand the subtleties of English, I suggest you calm down, and try to wade through the verbiage before you fly off the handle with your insults and flames. Your first post in this thread admitted that there are many issues to be dealt with. Don't flip out every time someone disagrees with you. It makes you look like a fool.

[gimhael]

I think that it's pointless to add another class that looks different, but plays like one of the existing classes. So if you make robots, they shouldn't just have rifles or laser guns with other damage output/different graphics than humans, but the should have a different combat style.

The aliens are best using a hit-and-run tactic with their high mobility, hp and damage output, while the humans are best in small groups where they can support each other and add up their weapons. I think a stealth based class might be possible or maybe a vampiric race that can heal only by damaging the other teams. But before anyone can implement this you'll need a detailed plan of the new race's abilities, their structures and how they evolve, just saying i want robots or vampires or zombies will not work. So I think first you should start collecting ideas for different races (maybe set up a wiki or a subforum) until you have enough details that the modelers and coders can actually start working.

The current maps are designed for two teams, but this doesn't mean that there can't be three (or more) races, the game could pick two races at random and then make a normal two-team match. Then in the future you can add newly designed three or four team maps (if you find a demand for them).

[player1]

@gimhael: I agree with all of your points. I think at least two polls are needed, to start.

1. If you support the idea of a "Third Race", what sort of beings would they be:

Robots
Vampires
Ghosts
Pirates
Ninjas
Fairies
Unicorns
etc.

2. Generally, in brief, what should their combat style and abilities be like:

Vampiric
RPG-ish
Stealth-based
Combo attack
Magical weapons
Ranged & Melee
etc.

And, I agree that a wiki or a thread where people can just generally post ideas would be a great start. I am already working on a scenario, have begun outlining the classes, artifacts, buildables, etc.,  and am working on combat and advancement systems. Generally speaking, I would like to see a Third Race that uses weak weapons that have to be collected by making kills, and which have a cumulative effect, as well as getting more powerful with each stage advancement. I also have come up with ideas to modify the existing Humans and Aliens, in case someone wants to make a TC mod. Since ideas are the easy part, I'll post a crapload as soon as I get the chance. Also, you bring up a good point. Weapons effects will need to be added for the Third Race's attacks.

Cheers!

[rotacak]

player1 :
I am not the one who calling others like "stupid" and "fool", so I don't think I need to calm down.
I described why is not needed rebuild maps. And your reply is "your idea is wrong because you need rebuild all maps". That is why I posted "Learn to read".

Anyway, now I am confused, because I completely agree with gimhael's post. There is "The current maps are designed for two teams, but this doesn't mean that there can't be three (or more) races...". And then your reply "@gimhael: I agree with all of your points.". So now is suddently not needed rebuild or make new maps for three team game??

But before anyone can implement this you'll need a detailed plan of the new race's abilities, their structures and how they evolve

Exactly. This is most important thing.

[gimhael]

@rotacak: Well player1 rejected the idea of playing 3 teams on the current set of maps, and I pointed out that it is possible to play two teams selected (randomly?) from a set of three or more races. This would allow to reuse the current maps and still allow to introduce new races, so there's not really a contradiction there.
You would still need to make new make for three-team games, but you can delay this until the new races have been finished. The 3-team maps could be entirely new maps or they could be small modifications of the existing maps (like add a third starting base in the ATCS bunker), but I'd say that this discussion is not relevant now, so lets focus on the first (the new races and how they should work).

[player1]

@rotacak: Let's put it down to cultural and hypertextual misunderstanding and proceed with what both you and gimhael have stated: link.

@gimhael: see link

@Amanieu: work-in-progress, see link

[rotacak]

gimhael: I see. My bad.

[Syntac]

Wow, playar1 has a sharper tongue than I ever had...

[Bissig]

1. Humans are weak and upgrade weapons
2. Aliens upgrade themselves and autoheal

So, how about a third race (I'd like to see Droids or Replicants or Cyborgs (<- done too often though already)) that can update themselves with autoheal via additional upgrades much like the humans. But is not limited to one upgrade. So, f.e with an expensive autoheal-transplant/kit/whatever they can heal while on the road. Another one gives them faster movement etc... Maybe they could be baseless but need a sort of leader (Commander - Total Annihilation, anyone?) to be able to build and use the upgrades. Every unit can turn into a commander, but there can be only one at a time. Same for "Amplifiers" which increase damage output or such.

I think without the need to build a third, stationary base, most maps might be suitable for the third race. Of course, some way has to be thought of on which condition this race loses the ability to respawn. Also, since they would lack stationery defence systems they need higher HP than the two default races.

[SlackerLinux]

if you really want a 3rd race make it a hybrid of both

humans that have been turned aliens

[hymn]

If I may, since I have some time, I decided to illustrate player1's way of though in a less complex way so that rotacak might understand more easily(woo crappy MSpaint picture time)

This image is the basic representation of a tremulous map, down to its core, its usually what its like, its also the basic representation of ATCS.
Red and blue circles are both teams bases, gray represent fighting areas and lines represent halls. It can be much more complex, but deep down all maps share this format.
Now to illustrate what he means by problems in this, its very simple, imagine that gray area is the 3rd race. Now what happens is that this new 3rd race ends up in the middle between the other 2 races. This will ALWAYS end up in a 2v1, one team will die very rapidly and then you're back to a normal 1v1. And no matter how you relayout the map, this problem will still arise in 90% of the maps, this is why new maps need to be redesigned to include the perspective of a third race.
Although I must agree that gimhael's temporary fix might work until the mod is fully fleshed out, its still only temporary, and new maps will still need to be made for 3 team free for all, and mapping for an uncoded mod is nearly impossible, the only thing I could think off would be a 3 way atcs like symmetrical map kind of like this:



As for what the third race should be, it should still remain within the boundaries currently set, which means there shouldn't be a magical race. Furthermore ninjas, pirates and vampires would still be widely human in nature, which would mean they'd be too close to the human team(since I don't see why they couldn't use firearms) in this case the best thing would be to allow multiple player skins and add new weapons instead to the human list(which would need alien counter balance)
Humans turned into aliens, why would they rebel against the aliens? Sounds more like a class taken from starcraft then anything else.
Robots/droids/cyborgs sounds way too much like the strogg race from quake, although a viable alternative, and probably fun, its way overly used in many games and would require heavy tweeking.

Although all in all this doesn't fixes the need for new models(a crapload too) and animations and/or coding(sounds like a lot of job for a single person)


As a random idea should the cyborg idea be implemented, instead of having no base, why not have the base be movable by the builder instead? The structures could be packed up and moved around rapidly, but take much longer to build(which would then be totally different from the 2 other races)

[player1]

Thank you, sir, very much. A picture saves a thousand words. Nicely done.

P.S. I started a Mod [Concept] Proposal in which the Third Race is Majickal Ghost-Ninja Space-Pirate Mythological-Creature-Beings, an amalgam of all the ideas I have ever heard. And, in case anyone is interested in a Total Conversion, I redesigned the Humans and Aliens, and the Humans are much more mobile. It's not done yet; I still have a lot of stuff that is down on paper, but not typed into the thread yet.

[Concept] The Unvanquished: Garrulous - TremKraft

[rotacak]

hymn: I understand what you and player1 want to tell me about maps. But this is true in pushcannon and maybe few others maps. There is no place for third team. We have on R Unlimited CZ server various layouts on atcs and some of them are these: red+blue base is with strong human bases, middle up is aliens. Next layout is inverted - red+blue is for aliens, middle up is humans. So one team is surrounded from both sides. And it works good. So I not see problem with third team even in small maps like atcs or boxfield. And with third team it should be even better, because for example in atcs that team in middle is surrounded by two different teams and they fight also with each other, not together like now. In big maps is many base locations, so there is no problem pick one of them for third race.
Anyway, I posted previously that you should be able to select what maps will be still only for two team games - so you can leave atcs only for two teams.

[hymn]

But this is true in pushcannon and maybe few others maps.

This is true for ALL default maps except maybe niveus and karith. I am not adding new maps because most of them are beta maps and are still in construction, in fact most aren't even fully playable yet.

R Unlimited CZ server

You should never state that you play on an unlimited build point server, because right now, I can assure you you've lost any little credibility you still had. Unlimited BP servers do not reflect the general game play of tremulous, most servers have a maximum of 100 BPs leaving base layout very thin so the general layout, even if bases are moved, still stays the same. And still, even if you have a single base surrounded by 2 enemy base, the teams still remain at a 1v1 ratio(like there are probably 4 players on both team) which means even if they flank, its 2v4v2. with a third team it would end up as 3v2v3(granted same number of players are kept) in a 8 player game, 6 players would end up fighting 2 because its just how it is, people will automatically go for the weakest link in order to win. Even if the game gets bigger(15 players for example) in a normal game both team are equal, with a third team if the balance is kept, then it would end up in a 10v5(with some random skirmish here and there), which isn't fun.

Even if you take bigger maps for this, take karith for example, its still the same. Put a team in the elevator room and now you've just cut almost all path of moving except 1 which still means it will end up in a 2v1. here's the basic layout of it:


red=aliens
blue=humans
gray=elevator room
line 1 is the outside path going through the snow, its unpractical as a base for the current teams(except maybe humans, but its still a bad position)
line 2 is the up path which goes straight from human to alien base, there is the cat walk, the hall and the stairs, except for a base in the stairs, any others I've seen usually aren't too good. So its not a good location.
line 3 criss cross represents the the giant hall with stairs area, which is generally not a good place to put anything since its way too open.

If we have a third team, lets not forget that they must have a suitable base location which can't be picked from 2 miles away by humans(so you need corners and possibly doors) and still needs to resist aliens attack. It can't be too cramped either or else it won't be so fun trying to navigate the small places which removes any hallway currently around.

So we need new maps solely for this mod(eventually if player1's idea does get around I might try to make 1, although my mapping skills aren't anywhere near top mappers)
All this doesn'T remove the bigger problems though.

[rotacak]

But this is true in pushcannon and maybe few others maps.

This is true for ALL default maps except maybe niveus and karith.

If you think... When/if third race will be done, then you will see that I had right.

R Unlimited CZ server

You should never state that you play on an unlimited build point server, because right now, I can assure you you've lost any little credibility you still had. Unlimited BP servers do not reflect the general game play of tremulous

Ah, credibility... That where I playing taking down my credibility? Then I don't care about it.
Unlimited servers does not reflect general gameplay, that is true. And? They reflect different gameplay. I don't know why that should be something bad.

10v5(with some random skirmish

I don't think that there will be "some radom skirmish" but "big intentional skirmish". Because now is killing enemy base way to win game. But with three team game no - they can kill one team, but second team remain. That is reason why is more preferable to kill stronger teams players first while rushing weak base and then finish that weak enemy base. But that all depends on many things.
I hope that is little understable.

[Nux]

Random points to throw in there:

• If the distances between bases is a problem, then the speeds of each of the factions might compensate.
• Will 2 factions team up against one? Will this be a problem?
• If one team camps, it won't stop the other two fighting and building up points/stages over them.
• Will each team attack less for fear of the third taking advantage?
• A third team might not necessitate a 'new' team (e.g one alien team and two rivaling human teams). This idea could be used for 2 teams aswell.

I'll report back with more if I think of anything.

[Amanieu]

• Will 2 factions team up against one? Will this be a problem?

That's the fun part Makes the game a lot more interesting.
Although we should consider a way of placing players of the team that lost into the other 2 teams

[The Me]

Aww, please keep fighting rotacak and player1, it was very entertaining.

No matter what, there will always be some type of teaming. Two races will target the stronger race.

A new question, when one team is whipped out, do they sit and wait? Or do they join the two other races, could you trust players from the dead race not to seek revenge on the team that caused their destruction?
Since there can be black and white when it comes to a winner and loser, how will you rank the team's victory? By points and damage to other teams, or by the order of which they died?

Also realize it will be nearly impossible for a team to attack a base. The team who is not attacking or being attacked will jump on the attackers backs and wipe them out, 2v1 style.

As for the new race, I would like to see some type of elemental/magical thing. Thats the only truly different class that could be added. The attack could be short to long range and in the race there could be classes, each having its own range and abilities? Perhaps some classes could be protective such as a mobile shield as an attack (like the bubble shield on Halo) which prevents bullets from passing through but allows people too pass through? Perhaps the shield could falter once the player who is creating it gets hurt or after a certain time?
Daydreams...

Well just giving you something to think about. Later

[Roanoke]

I also voted for elementals. Add to the story some mysterious line about how even before the aliens, something lived on the planet.

[Nux]

A new question, when one team is whipped out, do they sit and wait? Or do they join the two other races, could you trust players from the dead race not to seek revenge on the team that caused their destruction?

I believe that's what Amanieu meant when he said..

Although we should consider a way of placing players of the team that lost into the other 2 teams

I'd say that wherever the losing team goes, it will cause upset and so reduce your player base. If you want the mod to become well accepted you might want to think of a victory condition which doesn't require or allow for the destruction of a team.

[The Me]

I'd say that wherever the losing team goes, it will cause upset and so reduce your player base. If you want the mod to become well accepted you might want to think of a victory condition which doesn't require or allow for the destruction of a team.

Maybe something like Mario Kart 64 had where the team with no base turns into something less powerful but still mildly entertaining. A weaker form of their race or perhaps each race could become something else, for instance a dead human team could become weak fly droids, the elementals could be able to siege in one place and use minor magical attacks against people in their range, and the aliens could become a building of their choice other than egg. where they could sit anywhere and do their little building thing. meh but of course that would require a shit load of more coding... anyway yea throw out some more ideas of what could come of the third race.

[Bissig]

I also voted for elementals. Add to the story some mysterious line about how even before the aliens, something lived on the planet.

What planet? The war stretches over the known/explored galaxy.

[player1]

I am willing to code this, but I need... a plan of what you want exactly.

Submitted for your perusal: A Third Race Mod [Concept] Proposal.

[Spartan-039]

I think a good idea for a second race would be another faction of humans

[Archangel]

DUDE THAT IS A REALLY GOOD IDEA I DONT THINK WE'VE EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT YET

if you really want a 3rd race make it a hybrid of both

humans that have been turned aliens

Smells like headcrabs.

There's only one Hedy.