Bases on ACTS

[F50]

I have been trying to think of bases for ACTS, there aren't many on line that have been widely accepted. Any ideas?

It seems the most common one for the humans is to build turrets right around the base and make it really clustered. Then, either the humans are winning and aliens don't show up there (except dretches), or tyrants come in, jump the turrets, kill everyone that is there closely followed by the reactor. Also, all sorts of enemies are right around the corners of the room preventing the humans from moving so the tyrants can kill everyone at once. Is there a way to make tyrants a bit less of a problem? It seems that most aliens like the tyrant so a good public base should emphasize tyrant-resistance more than sniper resistance.

It seems that the most common for the aliens is to not build a base at all, so I have no clue what is good for them. Usually I will build a backup egg on top of the bunker in the middle. This has saved the aliens more than once, at least for some time anyways.

[Kriegsgott]

build turrets right around the base and make it really clustered.

tyrants come in, jump the turrets

Explain further. For one, tyrants should never be able to hop turrets. Two, who thought clustered is a good idea? There just happens to be something called a hitbox that can't be shot through. Building on the default ledge is better than off it.

a good public base should emphasize tyrant-resistance more than sniper resistance.

Truth. No matter where you build on almost any map, sniping will pose a problem. Without obscenely high buildpoints, redundant building is out of the question. The best sniper defense is a human body + aggression.

It seems that the most common for the aliens is to not build a base at all, so I have no clue what is good for them. Usually I will build a backup egg on top of the bunker in the middle. This has saved the aliens more than once, at least for some time anyways.

In accordance to the difficulties in teaching building in a single post, generalities:
  Multiple eggs in corners. Preferably 4-5 depending on size of team. No less than 3 - quickly spawning aliens are a much better defense than that extra acid tube.

  Ramps have clear pathway in s3 - not all rants are good at jumping gaps and lucifers take most defenses out in a shot.


Humans:
s1-2*http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4021/atcshaexyq1.jpg
s2-3*http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8243/atcshbexnx3.jpg
s3*http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5606/atcshcexom2.jpg

Aliens:
s1*http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5739/atcsaaex2ep6.jpg
s1*http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/9054/atcsaaexpt0.jpg

[UniqPhoeniX]

Why the hell does everyone put RC behind armory <.< It should be the other way around.

[Kriegsgott]

Protection against RC hops. This way the armory is only vulnerable to snipes, in which case you stand in front of them. Also prevents traffic jams of trying to reach medistation/armory.

[F50]

Explain further. For one, tyrants should never be able to hop turrets.

You mean they are physically incapable of it? Perhaps they smash them, then.

Two, who thought clustered is a good idea? There just happens to be something called a hitbox that can't be shot through. Building on the default ledge is better than off it.

I agree that everything critical belongs on the ledge. but Aliens don't shoot (except adv. dragoon, which we stipulated was not so much of a problem as tyrant). The problem with building clustered on ATCS is that once the aliens invade the room, then the humans have no range. I find that I generally wish to walk backwards when I see a tyrant, which requires control of the room, not just the ledge. A tyrant hiding in the back right corner of ATCS is hard to get rid of because it is hard to get out of his range by the time he mauls you and you only get a second to give him damage (perhaps this is because I am not a big fan of the Luci though). If you can keep the rants separated at their respective exits, then you don't have as much of a problem since they can't coordinate as well, but you are all together in a group. Also wouldn't it be better to have your turrets join in the battle a bit more often by placing them on the edge of the ledge or on the ramp than if they were huddled by the reactor?

Clustered seems to be ok, but I wonder if that is the best option.


Also, how good are trappers? I've heard that their view is conical which is ok, but how much range does it have?

[Bissig]

Also, how good are trappers? I've heard that their view is conical which is ok, but how much range does it have?

A trapper placed at the left wall by the big pipes in the aliens base (where you get too, when you rush in by the tunnel) approximately ranges to the middle of the alien base (between the two ramps). Most fun I have is, when I put trappers on the "ingrown wall part ledge" at the tunnel entrance of the alien base and the S1/S2 humans get eaten by mere dretches. Double fun with poison and/or basi. "GASSSSSSSSSSSS!"

[Valour250]

suggestion: Learn to build, if tyrants are jumping your rets than maybe you should let some1 else build or whoever is building that should be deny builded.

places rets in a curved shape almost a quater circle and having all your things behind it hold off rants if done properly, this also works better if you have some forward turrets.

anyway there is never one design people have personal preferences, as well as what they are or arent capable of building. anyway hope that helps.

tips for other people posting in this should prob use screen shots to give an idea of what your talking about.

[Kriegsgott]

F50: I take it that you mean something similar to this?
*http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1330/atcshsamrg4.jpg

This ends up being a matter of turret efficiency. Spread out as you seem to suggest leaves two major weaknesses:
  1 a goon can pounce up the ledge into default, and
  2 only so many turrets can fire at attackers at a time.
While both of these can be alleviated to a certain degree by turret placement, the only way to constantly protect the base is camping and/or spamming. As a rule, I am severely against this.

Defense against rushing, sniping, and the ever dreaded tyrant-in-the-corner is a different topic (while related) and one that is slightly more difficult to answer in a post, comparatively to an in-person demonstration.

[F50]

Yikes! I see your point.

That is *far* too spread out.

I meant more like these two bases:




The first base keeps everyone out of the corners, though tyrants often charge the humans sitting on the turrets on the ramp and harm the turrets. Tyrants don't *usually* try to harm the turrets as they are quite eager to get out of there. One thing I was thinking is to move one of the turrets on the ramp to the other side. This makes it more vulnerable to goons/tyrants from the tunnel but will help to prevent tyrants from sneaking up behind humans who have gone into the tunnel (tyrants seem to love to do this).

The second base keeps everyone out of the lower hallway and can shoot halfway onto the opposite ledge. However, goons like to blow up the first two turrets near the armory. Do turrets give evos in default?


Is the armory better kept where it is, or moved to near the reactor?

[Kriegsgott]

The first major problem involves the overhanging turrets. Any halfway competent alien can easily take those out without getting touched except by campers. With backup, almost anything can swap out to take those out from below, and dretchs can oftentimes sneak in. To further add difficulty in defending, I've seen many players shoot the turret above while trying to kill the alien below.

Secondly, both layouts have what basically amounts to a string of turrets. Dragoons and marauders can pop up and either surf the turrets or chomp them in a row.

Next, if you notice how few turrets are on the default ledge. In both cases, two goons can wreak havoc there by splitting up and one tackling the defensive turrets and the other chowing down on humans and the RC. If the hanging/close-to-the-edge turrets have already been taken out by others, so much the better (for the aliens).

Finally, while the above problems are compensated for by campers, this also means that these turrets are only semi-efficient if there are campers. There aren't enough able to shoot at any one point by themselves. As I've stated before, I disagree with this. A base should be able to hold its own against any moderate rush. Humans should spend their time hunting down aliens and preventing snipes. While I do see your point about preventing flanks, when it comes to sudden death a weak base line will add a sizable amount of difficulty, what with suicide rushes and all. With the default buildpoints, flank rets are notoriously hard to keep going and should be eventually scrapped before SD. It is up to the builder to decide on whether or not he should build them during the course of the game.

Involving the armoury, at its current spot it is easily killed and should be moved.

For evos/credits:
 RC: 3
 Telenode:3
 OM: 300
 Egg: 150
Everything else doesn't give a cent.

EDIT: I see what you mean on the tyrant hopping the turrets. Yet another structural defect I forgot to list.

[F50]

This base tries to address that problem. Thanks for the advice, I now understand who that one guy kept suiciding goons on the turrets defending the base when "60 secs to sudden death" appeared. Yes, he took out the armory.

I still have a string of turrets, but its only vulnerable from one direction, and it would be hard to keep it down to just one turret shooting at the goon. Why would surfing turrets be a problem. Wouldn't that expose them to all turrets in all cases?

I could take one of the turrets furthest from the camera and move it to the base proper, but I find that aliens camping right around the corner is game over for the humans as rants can heal up and then only have a second of turret exposure, then they can go back around the corner.

On second thought, the nearest turret should probably be placed against the wall closest to the camera and the reactor.

[mooseberry]

Still, any rant can take that base down in a second, because he can go at those front turrets one at a time.

[Kriegsgott]

For what you're trying to find:
*http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2240/atcshshamcn3.jpg

Personally I dislike it, but if it helps. . .

I would just like to re-emphasize that this won't last without campers or very long in sudden death. With the two turrets on the ramp, be careful during placement. If moved just a small bit either way, a rant can move around them.

[Urcscumug]

IMO, it's impossible to have a foolproof human base at the default location on ATCS. The mindset that the default setup imprints on the human team is deeply flawed from the start.

The room is too big to be covered completely so inevitably you end up sharing half of it with the aliens. Even 2 thirds, because eventually they WILL start coming in through both the side corridor and the main entrance and will own the opposing ledge as well as downstairs. The humans need to go back to their ledge all the time for the medi and armory, and they need to do so painfully slow, through the side ramp, while most aliens can jump right over. Eventually humans fall back more and more as the aliens pound in. In such a wide space turrets will fall and won't be replaced/repaired fast enough if the alien team is half decent and when SD sets it's just a matter of time. It's a doomed strategy from he start.

It seems to me it makes a lot more sense to control the passage points. The side corridor can be held very well with a couple of turrets and human defenders. The courtyard entrance is also small enough to be defended well.

An interesting human strategy for ATCS IMHO is splitting in two bases, each with its own armory, medistation, telenode and repeater. Give the courtyard entrance 3 turrets because it's wider, and the corridor two turrets. The courtyard defence camp can be set up very early in stage 1, starting with the turrets. The corridor advance camp can also be set close to the default room in S1 (hold the first bend and put the armory/node/medi in the far ledge stalls). Once S2 comes and you get repeaters you should start pushing down the corridor: first a repeater, then move the turrets one a  a time, then the support structures. If humans have armory and medi within short distance at all times and have turret support as well they can entertain the aliens very very well. So basically keep pushing until you reach the alien room entrance, while the courtyard team holds the entrance for everything they've got. No need to move the RC either so no dangerous downtimes.



Of course, there are weak points to this strategy as well. If an alien makes it past either defence it will be able to attack either team from behind, so there should be at least one human hanging back between camps for such a case.

And there's nothing in theory preventing aliens from forming an advanced camp in the corridor as well, but it seems to me that humans are better suited for this kind of tactics; by their nature, aliens need to fall back and stay back in order to regenerate, while humans have the medikit and can only step around the corner for a few seconds to the medistation and come right back (with a fresh supply of ammo too).

Another variant is to move the entire base in the corridor. Since you don't need to duplicate armory and medistation you get 3 more turrets and you can hold both directions. But this would be somewhat slower and would tend to give the humans the same defeatist/stay put/feel safe mindset that leads to their doom.

And my setup also has another fatal flaw: it leaves the courtyard free for the aliens to roam, and they will like it a lot. They will take over the roof of the middle structure and you do NOT want an alien stronghold there. So the courtyard entrance human camp should not be merely defending buth also patrolling the courtyard and at least actively dispute it with the aliens at all times if not control it. One jetting human should be able to prevent or at least severely curtail alien nesting.

Which brings us the main point: static human bases are doomed from the start. No matter how hard you try to find "perfect" spots on various maps, there's no such thing unless you talk about 5 minutes time. Even if it's a high spot with easy access to all the parts of the map, it still means humans need to move back and forth too much. The biggest human enemy is the mindset that says "stand back and defend".

[Guy]

That is an interesting strategy, but it's my belief that a base should merely be able to protect itself from alien attacks so long as they aren't too heavy, while the entire team rushes cooperatively. What you suggested is possible but you need a mix of experienced players who will help and a lack of people who will decon and build in default again. Even then what you are promoting is mobile rett hugging. This plan can be undone by a number of factors, feeders, skilled aliens, humans who don't listen very well, it's inherently risky.

IMO, it's impossible to have a foolproof human base at the default location on ATCS.

There is no fool proof human base in the entire game.

Of course, there are weak points to this strategy as well. If an alien makes it past either defence it will be able to attack either team from behind, so there should be at least one human hanging back between camps for such a case.

Which brings us the main point: static human bases are doomed from the start. No matter how hard you try to find "perfect" spots on various maps, there's no such thing unless you talk about 5 minutes time. Even if it's a high spot with easy access to all the parts of the map, it still means humans need to move back and forth too much. The biggest human enemy is the mindset that says "stand back and defend".

The base requires defenders and still emanates the "stand behind the retts and defend" train of thought, just that some retts move a bit every so often and the hall defenders have to keep up. Then you have one person guarding the RC/area between the two lines of defences, and the permanent defenders at the courtyard entrance, as well as the offensive defenders in the hall (If I may use the term). Your base requires many defenders along with communication between teamates to notify of attacks on one side or the other, which I, sadly, find lacking in public matches. Maybe you can pull this off in some situations, you've impressed me by actually making me begrudgingly admit that. But an early rush, a goon slipping behind unnoticed will not result in one side being attacked from behind, it will result in a RC dinner.

I dunno, I'd like to know a server or two where you play 'cause I'd like more cooperation from my teammates.

[Rassilon]

Just my 2 cents:

I was wondering if turrets could be placed in similar fashion to the 4 acid tubes in the alien base (in the 4 alcoves).  You can run past them as a dretch the first time, but subsequent times they get the track and shoot you.  I was also reading about a triangle shape formation of turrets on the mercenary's guild page.  I am a newb to tremulous, but not to shooters.  Ditto for the teamwork - winning the match is the goal, not getting the highest # of kills.  Thanks for all the ideas on turrets on ACTS.

[Urcscumug]

@Guy: I think I could sum it up by saying that humans need to function as a tight group (and this includes structures). Aliens seem to make ok as solo acts, with the occasional group rush, and spread their structures around a lot more (an egg+booster in a dark corner somewhere and you're good to go).

I get what you're saying and I thoroughly agree that communication is extremely important. True communication comes from live speak and perhaps that's why it's lacking on public servers, because it's difficult to stop and type it in. I'm guessing private servers usually have some kind of VoIP going.

Since I just started Tremulous for a few weeks now I mainly hang out on the public servers that give me good ping. Those being the Newbie Wrath Training Server, The Wine Bar, Dretchstorm, TremSpain, Unlimited CZ etc.

I've actually tried the tactic I proposed earlier tonight on Newbie Wrath, with all self-titled newbie players in both teams (about a 7 on 7 game or so). I covered the courtyard entrance with two turrets, the downstairs in the main room with three, then started pushing through the corridor and gradually moved the entire base there. I think I got the necessary time mainly because the 5 turrets left behind kept the aliens busy for a while. I didn't even bother deconning them, just waited to be destroyed to get the points back. We did pretty well until SD hit us, then it was all downhill from there. Mainly because everybody ran whichever way and let themselves for instance be distracted at one side of the corridor while the goons were sniping the turrets at the other.

From what I've seen it's a viable strategy (if experimenting on newbs is any indication), but like you said, it needs various things to happen at once and to be done well, which means good players and a lot of comm. You need to get much closer to the alien room by the time SD hits (we only got one level down the corridor); you need to avoid feeding the aliens (I did a mental roundup in the scores screen and they were leading); in S3 you should be seeing a lot of luci spamming everywhere to counter tyrant rushes, which didn't happen; you need to hold the courtyard entrance for as long as possible with actual humans, not turrets alone (valid everywhere); I think more and more that the jet camper in the yard is an absolute must; and so on.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think about the human courtyard jet camper on ATCS? Even if he only has a blaster on him he can distract the aliens a lot. The blaster may seem puny but the human bots on the newbie server have thaught me a lesson about what it can do in the hands of a good shot (ok, so they're perfect but still). I got to use it when I got stranded once in the yard with no ammo left so I entertained myself avoiding jumping goons and shooting at anything that stood still for a second. It can take out an egg, it can kill a careless dretch, it can hurt a lisk, it can bug the hell out of goons, who take a jet camper as a personal challenge. Bottom line, a jet camper can be a very good distraction if you need to gain some time.

[Urcscumug]

Just my 2 cents: I was wondering if turrets could be placed in similar fashion to the 4 acid tubes in the alien base (in the 4 alcoves).  You can run past them as a dretch the first time, but subsequent times they get the track and shoot you.  I was also reading about a triangle shape formation of turrets on the mercenary's guild page.  I am a newb to tremulous, but not to shooters.  Ditto for the teamwork - winning the match is the goal, not getting the highest # of kills.  Thanks for all the ideas on turrets on ACTS.

IMHO no on the alcoves idea, unless you got turrets to spare in which case sure, put them everywhere. A turret in an alcove is basically stranded and thus nothing to write home about. Lone turrets can be taken out by a skilled dretch who moves faster then it can turn, by a lisk who bites it and paralyses it, or anything bigger that can stand more damage before it has to run away. (Check out the damage that various types of alien can inflict and compare with the HP of a turret.)

So you need several turrets that "see" each other so they can cover each other while one is under attack.

The triangle is a good formation for several reasons. Any two turrets can cover the third. None of them blocks the line of fire for another. It leaves some space between turrets which is good for humans because they can pass without having to jump and won't allow massive aliens to inflict damage to more than one turret at once. It also forms a sort of V shape which is bad for any alien that gets inside it, which is why it's used to protect entrances and passageways when placed with the base towards them.

BTW, when you have a theory you can test it. Use /devmap atcs in the console (or whatever map you want) and enter the level as human or alien. /set g_humanstage 2 and /set g_alienstage 2 will give you stage 3. /give credits 2000 will give you credits and evo's, respectively. So you can build and then test what you built from the alien's point of view. /god activates invulnerability, so you can patiently test the range of the turrets or acid tubes, for instance, in small steps.

[F50]

I've gotten better, learned how to play a rant without simply handing it to the humans as high-quality feed, and decided to make a base with all turrets on the ledge. I like this base a lot better. The only thing is that on some servers, you have a bit more BP's (an extra turret or two) that I don't know what to do with

I created it by thinking of things that you need to defend (armory & medi, RC, telenodes) and placing a line of turrets to defend it. Then, I tried to make sure there was a footpath and no turrets without defense.  So I came up with this. The turret on the edge of the ledge could move along the edge or even to the middle of the "outside" zone to make it better defended.

[Geni3]

I would say that two good runs with a tyrant, and those turrets are down. The last turret should have to fit in the little corner created by the wall on teh left side of your picture. With it right now, a tyrant can run into the base, and go down to the turret closest to the ledge and use it as a shield while it kills it, then, it can take out the one closest to the wall/the one next to it. and if it dies, the last ones are quite easy. Plus the arm is easily snipeable by a goon on the opposite side, because it doesn't have to go far into the base to hit it.

[your face]

Also it looks as if the reactor is hoppable.

[Urcscumug]

The RC is always hoppable in that location, no matter where you put it. The best you can probably do is try to put a turret behind it, where goons can't get at it. But I've tried and can't do it (not enough space) behind the default RC location, and it's not worth the trouble to move the RC just for this.

About the footpath, as a soldier I'd much rather have a clear path to the medi and armory.

And if you have some extra BP there's lots of stuff you can do with it. You say 2 turrets worth, that's 16, maybe a little more (sometimes there's a little extra you can't do anything with). Build a 3rd node, sometimes it can really make a difference when your base is being rushed. Of course, in such a situation you're probably already screwed, but it can get you the draw if you play with a timelimit. (As I understand it, a draw is any game that doesn't end with either "Aliens win" or "Humans win"). You can also build a backup armory, or a second medistation.

And I'd much rather spread the turrets around. Whenever the turrets form any sort of line, even if it's a semicircle, it means they can be rather safely attacked from one end of it.

The typical human room under siege on ATCS means rants rushing in from both entrances and going for the ramp, then past the wall and into the human camp; goons sniping from the opposite ledge and sometimes hopping over to the human camp for a chompdown; and humans struggling to move to and from the arm+medi past the narrow ledge near the wall. And often they have to negociate the limited space with turrets. There is little way to fight properly and it's no wonder they almost always lose when reaching this stage.

There is a fear factor at work here. For instance, when leaving the camp freshly supplied, the humans should be jumping right off the ledge "downstairs", clear the ramp for incoming wounded. But being down there "alone" with the goons and rants is not very appealing, so they cling to the ledge among the turrets, they use the "safe" ramp and generally wait like sheep for the slaughter.

Not to generalize, of course, my experience is limited to a few public servers, and I hope things happen otherwise elsewhere.

I still think the key to a good human base on ATCS is claiming the entire default room, like aliens do. Concentrate turrets at the side corridor and the main entrance (not necessarily the courtyard entrance, because it is a bit far). Place the RC in one of the downstairs or upstairs alcoves. Spread the nodes around, so the occasional suicidal goon can at most take out one. Put medi and armory within easy reach of both defense points, but away from the entrances, and double the medi if possible.

The trouble is that the 100 BP only allows for 6 turrets after building 3 nodes, 1 armory and 1 medistation. If you sacrifice a node you get one more. But 3 turrets for the side corridor and 4 for the main entrance, properly placed, should work. I'm thinking a \  / for the main entrance, slightly pulled back into the room to deny snipes.

For the corridor the first turret should be placed close around the corner (replaced with a tesla when and if S/BP permit), to force aliens to come past the corner to attack it. And when they do, they come into the view of the second and possible the third turret and have to take fire. Careful about the range though; I've discovered that as a dretch you're perfectly safe from the default side corridor turret if you hug the far wall. And the range of the default RC location only allows you to place turrets about as far as the first corner of the corridor.

[Guy]

@F50: The turret by the ledge can be taking out without any damage being given to the alien. A goons pounce range can actually reach through the ceiling of those alcoves if the goon looks upwards at the right angle. You may or may not want to move the rett into the corner seeing how it makes it harder to use this trick.

The RC is always hoppable in that location, no matter where you put it. The best you can probably do is try to put a turret behind it, where goons can't get at it. But I've tried and can't do it (not enough space) behind the default RC location, and it's not worth the trouble to move the RC just for this.

You can fit 2 retts behind the RC in it's default position. But you don't get much use out of them unless you built your base correctly. Goons can move so the RC blocks the line of fire of the rett or two back there. So, you get the most use out of them when the other retts in your base, the ones that also protect the front, are just in range of the goon when he moves to the position where the retts behind the RC can't hit him. you end up getting a goon that is hit by at least two retts no matter where he while on the RC. But that base has other flaws.

And I'd much rather spread the turrets around. Whenever the turrets form any sort of line, even if it's a semicircle, it means they can be rather safely attacked from one end of it.

Spreading retts out also ensures that the retts can be semi-safely attacked. The principle behind the semi-circle idea is you have a metric ass load of retts that can all hit a target that tries to destroy a rett in the formation. On ATCS at least that's the mantra. If you build it correctly hitting one of the end retts is just as dangerous as attacking any other, and in fact less useful most of the time purely because of the explosion after a rett is destroyed. That's one of the only bonuses to spreading out aside from generally making the base easier to navigate for humans. Separated retts don't do much against an S3 rush. A rant times its charge so he hits the rett dealing out the full potential damage of the charge then he quickly slashes a fraction of a second after the charge and charges away. Rett destroyed, time taken, about a second. The semi-circle principle (which can be executed by a formation other than a semi-circle) at least has most, if not all, of the retts shooting at the rant for that instant. While a separated formation has only a fraction of the total retts firing at the rant.

The problem with these spread out bases generally is that instead of having a large amount of defences guarding the RC, nodes, etc. you get a fraction of that defence spread out at different points on the map. The defensive lines either lack the power actually defend the structures behind them, are jumpable, or require unnecessarily large amounts of human assistance. A base that practices the principle behind the semi-circle formation can fend off large aliens direct attacks and would only need a person or at max two to adequately defend the base from hops allows the rest of the team to deal damage to the enemy base. As said before you don't need the semi-circle formation and it can be quite easy for troops to maneuver through the base. Small separations between retts can also reduce damage given by the explosions without drastically reducing the area that the retts can cover with fire. I realize I am going off topic and apologize for it.

[Urcscumug]

The semi-circle principle (which can be executed by a formation other than a semi-circle) at least has most, if not all, of the retts shooting at the rant for that instant. While a separated formation has only a fraction of the total retts firing at the rant.

I think I may be missing some facts then. I was under the impression that if you have two or more retts and you attack them so they're in a straight line in front of you, you will only be fired at by the closest one, since it blocks the others.

From what you're saying I can deduce that either (1) even a small curve of the semi-circle will allow the turrets to fire all at once at the line's end; and/or (2) turrets also have up-down visibility to some extent, so if a rant (who is a tall beast) approaches he can be fired upon even by turrets placed in a straight line in front of him.

I wasn't sure about the up-down issue because from my experiments I've noticed that turrets are not all that great, to be frank. By that I mean that they have limited range that is shorter than you'd think, and their up-down detection doesn't always work perfectly so it's easy to evade them or find blindspots.

I'm not sure how a defense computer improves things. From what I read it makes them track multiple enemies better and increases rotation speed slightly. But what does "track multiple enemies better" mean? I think I'd rather have as many turrets as possible fire at the closest alien rather then each of them firing at a different one. It may make a difference with the bigger aliens.

[Guy]

The semi-circle principle (which can be executed by a formation other than a semi-circle) at least has most, if not all, of the retts shooting at the rant for that instant. While a separated formation has only a fraction of the total retts firing at the rant.

I think I may be missing some facts then. I was under the impression that if you have two or more retts and you attack them so they're in a straight line in front of you, you will only be fired at by the closest one, since it blocks the others.

From what you're saying I can deduce that either (1) even a small curve of the semi-circle will allow the turrets to fire all at once at the line's end; and/or (2) turrets also have up-down visibility to some extent, so if a rant (who is a tall beast) approaches he can be fired upon even by turrets placed in a straight line in front of him.

I wasn't sure about the up-down issue because from my experiments I've noticed that turrets are not all that great, to be frank. By that I mean that they have limited range that is shorter than you'd think, and their up-down detection doesn't always work perfectly so it's easy to evade them or find blindspots.

I'm not sure how a defense computer improves things. From what I read it makes them track multiple enemies better and increases rotation speed slightly. But what does "track multiple enemies better" mean? I think I'd rather have as many turrets as possible fire at the closest alien rather then each of them firing at a different one. It may make a difference with the bigger aliens.

Maybe it is I who is confused, lemme' start with the basics. Yes, if turrets are in a straight line the will not shoot through each other if an alien positions itself at the end of the line correctly. I would assume the second turret in the line would hit a rant only if it jumps (that's how teslas behind turrets currently work anyways). The defcomp I think allows turrets to track multiple targets. Really, I don't know I was given different explanations on that matter but the one I go by is "the defcomp allows turrets to track multiple targets".

Now onto the semi-circle part of this. I was mainly thinking of just in the default base on ATCS when I typed that. On ATCS the usual protocol when building a semi-circle is to leave one of the end turrets in the corner near the drop to the lower level of the human default base, and the other is placed up against the wall that separates the default base and the small alcove that's directly outside of the base. All or nearly all the turrets placed between the two ending turrets, if positioned correctly, can hit an alien attacking either turret. That works on atcs in the default base. But even in other maps the semi-circle still works. You just make sure that none of the rets get in the line of fire of another. I'll give you an example of a semi-circle setup where only mara's, lisks and dretchs could possibly pull off getting hit by only two retts. It's not a great base but it's generic enough to show how semi-circles can allow all the retts to shoot at an alien at once.

Click here for the semi-circle screenshot.

[Urcscumug]

First let me tell you that's a great setup for ATCS in the default location. It's better than F50's because there's a clear space to the medi and armory and the semicircle is very tight and well placed.

Second, I've also been a proponent of the kind of turret formations that enclose the aliens in the middle. The semicircle is one of them. The other is the V formation, used for doors and passageways, or the \ / formation.

What I was mainly confused about was why is it not ok to spread turrets all over the place within firing distance of each other. But I think I see what's wrong with that: only a few rets will be able to fire at any given time. The semicircle, by design, will fire all at once. Well, it depends on the exact location really but that screenshot of ATCS is great and it really cleared things up.

Back on topic: is there special thought given to the placement of the nodes in the screenshot? It's obvious why the reactor, medi, armory and turrets are where they are, I wonder about the nodes though. Because it looks very good. Spawning humans have armory handy on the way out, it's well positioned for the breach in the turret wall. Not sure what an alien would think of them.

[Bissig]

The "best" way to build defences on ATCS (and most maps) is to make sure the alien has to get deep into your base, so when it starts retreating upon receiving too much damage, it is already to late to do so. Of course the blocking element of the wall hanging from the ceiling infront of the human base is another plus that should be utilized by a smart builder.

[F50]

I am worried that a rant could fit between those turrets in that base and down the armory in SD, or he could destroy the one turret and take only a fraction of a second's damage from half the turrets before they become blocked. If that is so, then the armory is in danger and the human trying to get to the medi is doomed.

First let me tell you that's a great setup for ATCS in the default location. It's better than F50's because there's a clear space to the medi and armory and the semicircle is very tight and well placed.

I'm not trying to say that my base is the best, and my base and that base are rather similar. However, the "faults" that you mentioned are intentional, except for the turret on the edge, which I've moved to the edge and back a bit. I intentionally made the entrance to the medi far away and somewhat difficult to get to (it only takes an extra second *while protected by turrets which will block the enemy's path* to get to the medi as compared to the other base) so that Tyrants don't have easy access to the medi and armory, everyone else can just jump or run. Also, I built that formation so that all the turrets can shoot at someone outside, but if a mara decides to hop turrets, it is still shot at by all or the majority of the turrets by the RC and armory.


Here's another variant, taken in-game so its not the best view. The medi could be moved to the other side of the armory to make it closer. only two turrets don't have a line of sight to the ground next to the most important buildings. Most of them can shoot the telenodes too.

[Guy]

I don't know if a rant can fit through there to be perfectly honest. The base was mainly meant to demonstrate how all of the rets in a semi-circle can fire at once on one target. But looking at it now here's what I see, humans shields. On the medi, spawning at the telenodes. Yes, it is not the perfect defence but in the case of one rant suicide rushing hopefully a dumb teammate will act as a shield and a smart one will be shooting making the rants life that much shorter.

There was no idea of special placement for the nodes. I didn't move the RC back so I had little room to put a second node. If I moved the RC back then the node that is closer to the camera would be moved to the left. I play on servers where, unfortunately, there are lots of large matches IE 10 on 10 and 13 on 13 (I rarely get my favorite 4 on 4's). So, having nodes that close to an armoury means you get people standing on the nodes when they try to buy something or if they are waiting to use the medi. That will slow down spawn speeds a bit, even on the servers that have functions which push you off a spawn.

[Geni3]

If you look at kreigsgott's post, right after the original post, and look at the human base pictures, you will see bases, with reactors moved back fully into the corner, and turret placements that focus on always having 3 or 4 turrets shooting no matter where it may be on the humans ledge. Keep in mind as well, games in which the human team never leaves it base, is going to end up as a loss (on servers where there is no ESD during which the aliens all rush) because they will fail to kill the other teams eggs, the object of the game. Now, if humans actually are getting out of the base and making pushes, that get them to the alien base, the human base remains perfectly safe.

Basically, offense is the best defense, provided, no aliens slip past you, but you can remedy that with a "designated defender" who calls back the attackers if the base is getting hit and he can't handle it.