Tremulous Forum
General => Announcements => Topic started by: Norfenstein on December 13, 2009, 08:03:09 pm
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Well the results are in: we've collected data on more than 200 hundred games on both official servers, and can now be confident enough about the trendlines to move forward. Here are the graphs, as of a few hours ago (each cross is one game, the distance from 0 on the vertical axis indicates how close a game was to the mean duration for all games on the graph):
Both servers combined
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1394/combined.png)
Euro server (unlagged OFF)
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5172/95048396.png)
US server (unlagged ON)
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3062/24409931.png)
Obviously not quite what we hoped for (and, apparently, the opposite (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12454.0) of what many of you expected) but this exactly why didn't use the development games alone to balance the game. This data tells me two things:
- Aliens are winning significantly more games than humans
- The win ratios on the US and EU servers are very similar
About unlagged
The graphs on the EU and US graphs look oddly different, but this may be because of the smaller number of games in the upper playercounts skewing the trendlines. However, I think the outcome is close enough to justify not having made balance changes specific to unlagged settings. To be certain about this, the best thing to do would be to swap the unlagged settings on the two servers without making any other changes, but considering that both are unbalanced in the same way anyway I think this would be a waste of time. We're going to turn unlagged on for both servers for three reasons:
- Unlagged does not appear relevant enough to spend more time on right now.
- Changing the setting on one server is almost as good as changing it on both because the difference between the two servers can then be compared to see if the disparity has more to do with player populations.
- I've had requests to turn unlagged on for the EU server and know of people that would stop playing on the US server if it had unlagged turned off. I can't say the same for the reverse of either. Unlagged is the default we're going with and it looks to be highly likely that balancing for unlagged on is the same thing as balancing for unlagged off.
About the balance
Given how complicated Tremulous is, knowing what to change is a much harder question than knowing what needs to be fixed. There's no getting around needing to use intuition at some level, and more importantly: multiple cycles of tweaking and re-testing (and no, the time spent changing things and playing on the development server wasn't enough, it always had to be with a much larger playerbase). And we do have the time for these cycles, as there's still plenty of work being done on everything not gameplay-related.
From the data we've collected and my experience playing and watching people on both servers, I believe the imbalance shown in the graphs is because of a deficiency in human offense, and to much lesser extent the continued usefulness of egg spam. To see if this really is the right idea, I'm going to make just a few small changes and we'll test again to see if the balance moves in the right direction.
- Chaingun damage reverted to 6 - The difference wasn't enormous when I lowered it some time ago, but I believe now it was probably on the wrong side of "almost right". Note that the spread is still slightly better than it was in 1.1 (900 instead of 1000).
- Flamer damage increased to 25 - Even being 50 credits cheaper, the flamer doesn't seem be more useful than other weapons (for four times the price it's gotten about as many kills as the painsaw). It was, however, very useful when the dretch health was low enough for it to kill them in one hit, so we'll see how it goes when it's like that again.
- Granger spit slow time reduced from 5 seconds to 1 second - I've always felt that the granger's slowing ability was far too powerful for a free class not intended for combat of any kind, and alien bases have enough defensive capabilities as it is. More importantly this will make it just a little harder for grangers to run away from humans when they have no base (though if their aim and timing is good enough they can keep a human slowed with repeated shots).
I don't expect these changes to fix the balance entirely, but if it helps then it'll be good indicator that I'm on the right track. After 200 more games on both servers we'll try this again.
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Kill count and stage up graphs would be nice.
I think humans are getting more kills and getting stages sooner which is what's causing people to think they are stronger.
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I think you should look at the basi gas, and maybe the mara zap. If both are used they are extremely powerful, maybe increase the speed of the human when you get gassed. Interesting stats :P
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I think you should look at the basi gas, and maybe the mara zap. If both are used they are extremely powerful, maybe increase the speed of the human when you get gassed. Interesting stats :P
Zap is really only effective against cluttered bases. It's hard as a marauder to use zap against a spread out base; usually chomp would be more effective, although sometimes marauders can't do much damage against well built human bases. Humans should try to spread out their base especially when aliens are stage 2, much like aliens try to spread out their base against human grenades (s2). Unfortunately, as the most active player on US1 as of December 10, 2009, I've found that humans sometimes camp inside their closed-in 1.1-styled based, which I think was a major factor in the imbalance, which was, funnily enough, tilted towards the alien team.
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These changes are now up on official US1 and EU1. Don't forget that unlagged is now on on both servers. The votable map list has also been expanded considerably on the EU server to match the US server.
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first graph, AS3 vs HS3 (146.30%)? explain? ???
that's 146 games, 30%. there is no '.'
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missed the combined part :D. i would like to see more data though. eg. weapon data.
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While these results did surprise me, I believe part of the bias towards aliens could be due to people still trying to play trem like its 1.1. Like has been stated before, mara zap is very good against closed in bases, usually used in 1.1. Other things that used to fly in 1.1 don't work well anymore, and its all about adjusting.
When people get accustomed to the new settings, be it alien ranges or new building styles, and maybe the results will even out more.
Who knows, though.
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Granger spit slowdown reduced to 1 sec? Granger is too dangerous? You can easilly hit dodging human with granger spit? I don't think so. It's hard and with 1 sec duration it is useless, you can remove it entirely like hovel...
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Granger spit slowdown reduced to 1 sec? Granger is too dangerous? You can easilly hit dodging human with granger spit? I don't think so. It's hard and with 1 sec duration it is useless, you can remove it entirely like hovel...
+1
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Granger spit does more to encourage people to try and hit humans when they don't need to.
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I don't know how the games are going down with you, but I know any time we have had a good group of players, even in 1.1, if a certain team is losing more, then the good players will switch to that team the next round. To be honest, when I see a great players assembled on AA, the balance is 1:1, as the game is decided more by who is playing than what team they're playing on. Is it possible that your players are skewing the balance towards aliens because they have been told it is the less likely team to win? If that's the case, the balance may not be leaned towards aliens as much as it seems from the stats. I still hold the belief that good players have a better feeling of balance than numbers and statistics ever will, because there are too many independent variables.
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Length of games would be nice...
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It says the mean game length is 15 min. That seems a bit low to me but w/e.
Seeing game length for every game would be _really_ complicated/confusing and not so helpful.
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min/max/standard deviation would be nice to see though.
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- Aliens are winning significantly more games than humans
You'd still have to try very hard to convince me that this isn't due to the fact that new players DO NOT like to play as aliens. Hence, you often end up with a human team full of noobs, and more experienced players on the aliens.
In large public games with a bunch of players, the individual's role is diminished, but in smaller games with more experienced players (clan scrims, etc), all of the alien nerfs make things very un-fun at times (in my opinion).
It says the mean game length is 15 min. That seems a bit low to me but w/e.
As others have stated, and I agree 100% with, the length of 1.1 games is one of the main reason I like Trem. 1.2 games seem to end much faster. In my mind, if a game doesn't make it to sudden death, then one team just isn't trying hard enough, or one is stacked with experienced players.
Finally, please leave the poor granger alone! ;_;
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Could make the graphs more readable by depending less on lots of colors, instead using different kinds of lines (thicker for overall, some dotted; or curves might be even better) and symbols (+/x/o). Also what exactly is the vertical value (bias??) and 'mean duration'?.
Graphs for time (H) vs playercount (V) showing stageups and wins would be nice (to see which team gets stage ups sooner at which playercounts), possibly connecting individual points vertically.
I also don't agree with granger spit being made useless, grangers already have a very hard time egg spamming if humans just work together and don't let the aliens spread through the whole map again and again. If they don't work together at all, do they deserve to win?
Maybe increasing flamer speed would be better then damage, as then self damage will not increase. I would like to see flamer more used against bases then aliens. In 1.1 flamers can actually kill some hives safely if you are careful and use the speed addition from movement. As hives now attack all attackers, what about making flamer kill swarms?
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Burning cloud of zombie bees. That would be a sight to remember. :D
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Burning cloud of zombie bees. That would be a sight to remember. :D
+1
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Burning cloud of zombie bees. That would be a sight to remember. :D
+1
+10
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I'm not sure there is a bias toward aliens at all. IMO if a game doesn't make it to HS3 vs AS3 there is probably something very wrong with the player balance (or someone just didn't build, or didn't build right). Those games also tend to be very short. If we eliminate games under 10min or so, what kind of balance statistics would we find? I think it is notable that in AS3vsHS3 the euro server found humans to be slightly more effective, and the reverse for the US server.
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Lies, damned lies, and statistics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics)
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Granger spit slowdown reduced to 1 sec? Granger is too dangerous? You can easilly hit dodging human with granger spit? I don't think so. It's hard and with 1 sec duration it is useless, you can remove it entirely like hovel...
I also don't agree with granger spit being made useless, grangers already have a very hard time egg spamming if humans just work together and don't let the aliens spread through the whole map again and again. If they don't work together at all, do they deserve to win?
If they clearcut the alien base and reduced the entire alien team to grangers, who themselves are only working together in the sense that they all build eggs as soon as any one of them gets an overmind up, then yes, the humans absolutely deserve to win.
...not that I really think changing the spit will help very much with that, but I do think being able to slow a human for five seconds (that's any human; the basilisk gas -- which you have to pay two frags to get -- will slow a naked human for ten seconds, but a battlesuit only two seconds longer than the granger spit does) is very inappropriate for a builder. And at one second I expect it will still be useful against humans trying to rush through an alien base (i.e. when slowing down can mean the difference between grenading the overmind and getting eaten), and for not much else (i.e. when the granger isn't in its base). If you're only imagining one granger dueling with one human then you have the wrong idea.
Maybe increasing flamer speed would be better then damage, as then self damage will not increase. I would like to see flamer more used against bases then aliens. In 1.1 flamers can actually kill some hives safely if you are careful and use the speed addition from movement. As hives now attack all attackers, what about making flamer kill swarms?
The biggest complaint about the flamer seems to be how much it hurts the user, so maybe addressing that even more will be warranted, but I think the flamer's niche is effectively killing lower level aliens. By its very nature it's not as good against structures as other weapons -- it has a short range but doesn't do as much damage as the painsaw, and if you don't position yourself well you are going to hit yourself (more inevitably than against alien players I think; you can hit them while backing up without risk to yourself).
While these results did surprise me, I believe part of the bias towards aliens could be due to people still trying to play trem like its 1.1. ...
... If that's the case, the balance may not be leaned towards aliens as much as it seems from the stats. ...
You'd still have to try very hard to convince me that this isn't due to the fact that new players DO NOT like to play as aliens. Hence, you often end up with a human team full of noobs, and more experienced players on the aliens.
I thought I'd mentioned this in the top post, but I guess I edited it out before posting: there's no shortage of reasons one could give to explain why the statistics are inaccurate, or scenarios one can imagine in which the balance is perfect already, but I think we're better off using the statistics we have instead of the statistics we might imagine for situations that can't be tested. At least this way we can be confident about being balanced in one set of circumstances, instead of just hoping to be balanced in all of them.
I still hold the belief that good players have a better feeling of balance than numbers and statistics ever will, because there are too many independent variables.
And up until now feelings have been the only thing used to balance 1.2 (and no, not just my feelings). Now we're using them to interpret and act on empirical data, where we feel it's beneficial.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics)
Did you have a look at that wikipedia page, or were you just being cynical? It cuts both ways:
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions.
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There is never going to be a perfectly balanced game.
However, this goes to show less about the relative power between the teams and more about how pointless the changes have been. If the trend continues, what is the point of the changes?
I personally don't enjoy the changes.
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I'm not sure there is a bias toward aliens at all. IMO if a game doesn't make it to HS3 vs AS3 there is probably something very wrong with the player balance (or someone just didn't build, or didn't build right). Those games also tend to be very short. If we eliminate games under 10min or so, what kind of balance statistics would we find? I think it is notable that in AS3vsHS3 the euro server found humans to be slightly more effective, and the reverse for the US server.
I agree mostly, though I also thing that all the games that go into SD but finish before time is up should also be eliminated since in my experience SD is geared towards an Alien win. First of all the alien structures regenerate, 2nd all aliens really need to keep going is spawns and the om. Humans need much more infrastructure to keep going in SD, the arm, the rc, spawns and a medi. To get the same functional base as the aliens humans need a DC, arm and medi each of which takes BP away from defensive infrastructure. Ergo it is easier to take down the human base (once you get past the opposition) than it is to take down the alien base. Saying all this though I do acknowledge that aliens do seem to die quicker in the human base than before, especially now that the rant has only 350hp.
Imho the whole argument about the good players normally play as aliens and noobs play humans might be true, and if this is what we are truly seeing irl then the balance should take that into account.
Having said that, is there a way you can re-do the figures and look at them with these games filtered out?
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How about you publish the (anonymous) logs so people can make there own graphs etc?
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To get an accurate statistics, force random join on the teams. I.e. when player wants to join, no matter if he chooses H or A, he is "autoplaced". At least that will give you a bit higher spread, but definitely better values.
Granger spit slowing down only for 1 s seems to be a bit too excessive for a change at the moment. (5 times the value). At least 2 seconds would be reasonable, or even 1.5, with the ability to "continue" the slowdown effect on the human. It will still require 100% attention of the granger, but will be a bit more fair to the builders which can not only build.
I mean, as a hckit you could kill a dretch with a blaster with some reasonable effort, as granger, you barely have ANY chance to kill naked rifle even if the rifle is a complete newbie.
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To get an accurate statistics, force random join on the teams. I.e. when player wants to join, no matter if he chooses H or A, he is "autoplaced". At least that will give you a bit higher spread, but definitely better values.
i like this idea for beta could give better results.
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I think that developers too much rely on balance. And that cannot be perfect. Wining ration depending mainly on team. I see many good changes in 1.2, but some of them making me sad. Like luci, hovel, turrets, basi grab turret, granger spit, granger speed, granger size, granger slash, pulse speed... Yes, that changes are probably better for game balance, but Tremulous losing his variability. Player should need to learn how to use basilisk - not fixing basilisk for noobs. Same for pulse rifle. In 1.2 we will lose big part from Tremulous - we cannot kill turret by circling around, because we cant bite turret anymore. We cannot be hurted by turrets like granger or dretch, because we are almost-instant killed. We not need to predict alien movement with luci, because luci is fixed for noobs. We cant be near luci humans with goon and provoke, because we will be instant luci killed. We cant evil laughing when we hit human with granger spit, because 1 sec slowdown is not enough time for laungh. We cant hop in hovel - if we doing it only for fun, now we cant do even that small fun. Pulse rifle was weapon for good players or for base rushes and now is fixed for noobs. Flamer - should be still weapon what can burn yourself if you don't know how to use it. Regular granger have attack, but he should only have fear and run away, not fight.
This is my opinion and I am sad when I see how Tremulous losing his variability only due to balance changes. I think Tremulous should be "learn, practice and play" not "take some weapon and shoot" like quake. But on the other side I am happy when I see bunch of improvements in 1.2 (not balance changes).
Troy: I think autoplacing will cause only join -> leave -> join -> leave.... spam until player will join requested team.
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Also what exactly is the vertical value (bias??) and 'mean duration'?
It does need some explanation - obviously the range of game durations is not 14 - 16 minutes (15 +/-1), nor is the vertical axis scaled from -1 = 0 minutes to +1 = timelimit. WTF?
I agree that measuring balance with players new to 1.2 is better than guessing with no empirical data, but also agree that balance with new players will be significantly different than balance with experienced ones. The most disconcerting thing for me has been stamina - it is far easier to black out in 1.2 than in 1.1, and impossible to recover. The alien differences (slow healing without booster) are easier to adjust for, and I love the boosted heal speed :-).
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Also what exactly is the vertical value (bias??) and 'mean duration'?
It does need some explanation - obviously the range of game durations is not 14 - 16 minutes (15 +/-1), nor is the vertical axis scaled from -1 = 0 minutes to +1 = timelimit. WTF?
I agree that measuring balance with players new to 1.2 is better than guessing with no empirical data, but also agree that balance with new players will be significantly different than balance with experienced ones. The most disconcerting thing for me has been stamina - it is far easier to black out in 1.2 than in 1.1, and impossible to recover. The alien differences (slow healing without booster) are easier to adjust for, and I love the boosted heal speed :-).
Time is not included in the graph, and up and down, simply put means that the higher up the line, the more likely humans are to win, and the opposite for below the midline. The horizontal part of the graph is pretty obvious I think.
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While these results did surprise me, I believe part of the bias towards aliens could be due to people still trying to play trem like its 1.1.
I agree. There's no statistics to back this up, but I do notice people are clinging on to old 1.1 habits, like never using the flamer, not building tesla(which I personally think have too low of a range to protect well) or building hives. I think it could be partly due to the fact that some people don't seem to realize they have been changed. Barricade building has definately increased once players realized they collapsed and were much more useful than before.
On a side note, maybe DC repair rate should be increased a tiny bit or something. It sometimes feels like it's just wasting BP sitting there.
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...up and down, simply put means that the higher up the line, the more likely humans are to win, and the opposite for below the midline....
That doesn't make sense. How do you judge how likely a single game is to end with humans/aliens winning?
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The vertical axis is the difference from the mean duration, where 1/-1 means no difference and 0 means the maximum difference.
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I think the devs need a public relations BRANCH to deal with this nitpicky shit. Good luck w/ 1.2.
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- Aliens are winning significantly more games than humans
You'd still have to try very hard to convince me that this isn't due to the fact that new players DO NOT like to play as aliens. Hence, you often end up with a human team full of noobs, and more experienced players on the aliens.
In large public games with a bunch of players, the individual's role is diminished, but in smaller games with more experienced players (clan scrims, etc), all of the alien nerfs make things very un-fun at times (in my opinion).
It says the mean game length is 15 min. That seems a bit low to me but w/e.
As others have stated, and I agree 100% with, the length of 1.1 games is one of the main reason I like Trem. 1.2 games seem to end much faster. In my mind, if a game doesn't make it to sudden death, then one team just isn't trying hard enough, or one is stacked with experienced players.
Finally, please leave the poor granger alone! ;_;
This guys is right on. You devs are looking at things so wrong it's not even funny. You need to account for the player skill in your evaluation of balance. In the current version of 1.2 two equally skilled teams are no where near balanced, humans are vastly more powerful.
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To get an accurate statistics, force random join on the teams. I.e. when player wants to join, no matter if he chooses H or A, he is "autoplaced". At least that will give you a bit higher spread, but definitely better values.
Please do this before you nerf aliens more. If you do you will see just how underpowered aliens are now.
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Meh, I used to feel the same way. I'd join the Official US Server and bitch about how goon range sucks etc. But now that I play it more, I saw that if you play like you do in tremulous 1.1, you are bound to suck. You will rely mainly on the primary attacks but in 1.2, you have to also use the secondary attacks a lot more to be effective. For instance, about 3 pounces kills a larmor+helm human and about 5 a battlesuit. The tyrant trample can kill a battlesuit if you continuously hit them.
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If you want it to be accurate you need to take balance from a fixed independent variable set. You need a group of experience closely skilled players to play 6-8vs6-8 switching off teams. Then you'll get far more accurate results than just random people on random public games.
Your statistics are going with all games, that means you haven't cut games with fewer than 4 players or that lasted almost no time. Those games are a hindrance to the stats and I don't see how they can be valuable in any type of form. Games that are far to short etc are generally due to independent variables such as someone "attempting" to move base half way across the map with no warning(which is very common on humans) or other things of that nature, that can hardly be determined as significant balance references.
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The graphs and the stats filter out a lot of games for a lot of reasons. I know games with less that 6 players are not counted at all.
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The graphs and the stats filter out a lot of games for a lot of reasons. I know games with less that 6 players are not counted at all.
Oh would be nice if that was included in the first post.
Do you have a list of what games it discludes?
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One thing that would help, that's just common sense, is to make the dev server like what the real servers are going to be like. In other words, make the OM, RC, arm, medi and booster rebuildable in SD. The fact they aren't isn't fun, for anyone (remember this is a game, it's for our enjoyment), and most of the popular servers are going to mod this in anyway, because it's just common sense to do so. Having seen a couple games where humans lost because of a nice goon jump + bad luci shot; I think these events are skewing the results. Trem isn't meant to be played with the RC, OM, medi, arm, and booster being non rebuildable; very few players prefer total non rebuildable SD, as in none at all.
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One thing that would help, that's just common sense, is to make the dev server like what the real servers are going to be like. In other words, make the OM, RC, arm, medi and booster rebuildable in SD. The fact they aren't isn't fun, for anyone (remember this is a game, it's for our enjoyment), and most of the popular servers are going to mod this in anyway, because it's just common sense to do so. Having seen a couple games where humans lost because of a nice goon jump + bad luci shot; I think these events are skewing the results. Trem isn't meant to be played with the RC, OM, medi, arm, and booster being non rebuildable; very few players prefer total non rebuildable SD, as in none at all.
SD is there for a reason, to end games that are too long. If you can't build a base that is safe, you deserve to lose. >:( And you are totally wrong about noone preferring total non rebuildable SD.
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If they can get the RC/OM without taking out a large chunk of your base then you deserve to lose.
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I like the part where he says it's designed to be played in a way that the designers don't even have in trunk. :)
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I like the part where he says it's designed to be played in a way that the designers don't even have in trunk. :)
Agreed. The game is designed to be played with FF either on or off (unless it's decided that it'll be off, which, IMO, is preferred). Can't really claim that the official and vanilla are being unfaithful to how the game's designed to be played. -_-''
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I shouldn't have been so concrete with my statement, as some people prefer the default SD, though they are in the minority. The majority of users play on 1.1 servers that allow rebuilding the RC, OM, arm, medi and booster. The game is more fun that way. A developer is just a person who codes, and often devs get caught up in the "rules" they want and forget the bigger picture about what would improve the game. Since most users play with a modified SD to what the devs originally, it's safe to assume the game is more fun, ie better, with such a rule change. Keep in mind what my point is also, before you simply object. Changing the SD rule set to a more user preferred method would be a more enjoyable way to balance the game in this testing phase, then to further tweak the alien-human balance.
@Lakitu7
The game is better with that rule set. At least more tremulous players seem to think so then agree with you. I suppose I should just download the source and make this fix myself. What do you use to compile the tremulous .exe anyway? Also where is the SVN?
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You don't even know how to compile C and yet you think you can edit it? Good luck with that...
Also, 1.2 is not 1.1. Plenty of other stuff has been changed, so who says this change isn't for the better?
And players are the worst people to ask what they want. They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.
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If they can get the RC/OM without taking out a large chunk of your base then you deserve to lose.
Once you get good with a goon, pouncing in and taking out the arm becomes near trivial in all but the strongest bases (such as the elevevator room). It's one pounce + 2 chomps; it takes seconds. This effectively ends the game for humans in SD. Having this virtual game over power for goons seems like a highly flawed game design. Also, as a retort to your simple minded statement with an equally simple point: If humans have the ability to defend their base without an armory for long enough, they deserve the chance to continue playing the game; rather then just being stuck in game over mode.
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And players are the worst people to ask what they want. They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.
Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?
Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.
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The whole point of SD is it ends the game quick, so no, they don't deserve a second chance.
Turrets can take out a goon in less than that. Assuming they are placed right the goon will never get there.
And a nade and/or saw can do the same to the OM.
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If they can get the RC/OM without taking out a large chunk of your base then you deserve to lose.
Once you get good with a goon, pouncing in and taking out the arm becomes near trivial in all but the strongest bases (such as the elevevator room). It's one pounce + 2 chomps; it takes seconds. This effectively ends the game for humans in SD. Having this virtual game over power for goons seems like a highly flawed game design. Also, as a retort to your simple minded statement with an equally simple point: If humans have the ability to defend their base without an armory for long enough, they deserve the chance to continue playing the game; rather then just being stuck in game over mode.
The game needs to end at some point. It shouldn't go on and on and on and on and on.
Also, rebuildable armories mean blocker armories being used as barricades which is lame as well. How about people do more than sit in base and kill stuff before its inside your base?
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And players are the worst people to ask what they want. They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.
Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?
Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.
Are you really trying to say you think a bunch of uneducated people with zero game design experience all working separately with independent aims and visions can come up with something better than a dedicated and experienced team who are all trying to make the same thing?
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Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?
Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.
Are you really trying to say you think a bunch of uneducated people with zero game design experience all working separately with independent aims and visions can come up with something better than a dedicated and experienced team who are all trying to make the same thing?
Like I said once, it's not like the devs play their game. It's made for the players, so it should be made with the players in mind.
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And players are the worst people to ask what they want. They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.
Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?
Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.
Are you really trying to say you think a bunch of uneducated people with zero game design experience all working separately with independent aims and visions can come up with something better than a dedicated and experienced team who are all trying to make the same thing?
No, what I'm saying is you shouldn't assume all players are retards.
I mean, look at the community we have here.
Theres the Unvanquished Mod(Hey Look! They're Trem Players, Making a game! gasp!)
All sorts of excellent mappers, and modelers, and you think that no trem players can do anything? Seriously?
Also, as you're siggy says, you're Not a Dev, so are you really one to talk?
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Once you get good with a goon, pouncing in and taking out the arm becomes near trivial in all but the strongest bases (such as the elevevator room). It's one pounce + 2 chomps; it takes seconds. This effectively ends the game for humans in SD. Having this virtual game over power for goons seems like a highly flawed game design. Also, as a retort to your simple minded statement with an equally simple point: If humans have the ability to defend their base without an armory for long enough, they deserve the chance to continue playing the game; rather then just being stuck in game over mode.
The armory, unfortunately, has more health so it's harder to kill.
I like that nothing can be rebuilt in SD, and it is my preferred mode in 1.1 as well.
My reasons are oddly enough the exact opposite of yours; It's unfair if aliens can rebuild their "armory" when humans cannot.
More on topic I can only confirm what many already have stated, humans are severely overpowered.
I know the statistics tells the opposite, however they are simply lying :)
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Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.
People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite. The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained. People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there. Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored. If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it. (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)
If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it. Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback. Saying why they want it would be.
Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did. Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.
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Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.
People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite. The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained. People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there. Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored. If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it. (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)
If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it. Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback. Saying why they want it would be.
Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did. Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.
No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said. In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see. Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes. All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.
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No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said. In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see. Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes. All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.
+1
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Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.
People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite. The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained. People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there. Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored. If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it. (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)
If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it. Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback. Saying why they want it would be.
Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did. Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.
No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said. In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see. Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes. All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.
No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said. Or most of anything else on this forum. Therefore, you shouldn't have said that because nobody asked you too. And you too, DavidSev. And most everything else on this forum. :)
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Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.
People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite. The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained. People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there. Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored. If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it. (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)
If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it. Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback. Saying why they want it would be.
Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did. Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.
No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said. In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see. Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes. All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.
No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said. Or most of anything else on this forum. Therefore, you shouldn't have said that because nobody asked you too. And you too, DavidSev. And most everything else on this forum. :)
Are you seriously saying that no one has asked what I asked for?
Everyone has been asking/drooling over stanumn's new models.
EVERYONE has constantly been asking for an updated client on the main page, at least tjw's for god sakes. Hell I'd be content with MG's but I'd like to see tremfusions the most.
Look at all the people sporting the long live the granger signatures? That's proof right there of people being upset with the changes made, like the removal of the hovel.
Think before you post maybe?
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The granger sig is exactly that: asking for something without explanation. Tesla was needed because humans only had 1 other defence. Hovel was similar enough to a barri to be called a (now inferior) duplicate. For those saying it's free, how about you use 10 of the extra bps aliens got, for another barri (since now almost all bases use a barri)?
And Stannums models will be coming anyway, they are not ready yet. Same for maps, HUD & menus, you can make those yourself too. It's called GPP = Gameplay preview, and coders don't usually make good modellers. TJW client is old already, tho yes MG should have gotten onto tremulous.net.
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Explanation: it was awesome.
There.
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For those saying it's free, how about you use 10 of the extra bps aliens got, for another barri (since now almost all bases use a barri)?
The number of BP is going to be server dependent. The dev's decision to add 10BP in the GPP is irrelevant to the game balance once it goes public. Just like the most popular servers will allow rebuilding of the armory, medi, OM, RC, and booster in SD, as they do now. My point with the SD thing is more that the pro goon insta win is skewing the results on game balance. Also I'd be curious about how many games result in an alien win due to deconing, which is far more devastating to humans then aliens.
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Look at all the people sporting the long live the granger signatures? That's proof right there of people being upset with the changes made, like the removal of the hovel.
Oh yeah, because a few of your friends have signatures about grangers....
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1.2 is a different game, it doesn't have rebuild-able armouries. Live with it.
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Hi, there is my feedback ( as euro long-time player ).
The game modifications are not bad at all and i don't miss holvels that mutch.
Btw there is 1 thing that i think is a bit ruining the game balance.
AdvGoon at s2.
I think this will make the game more campy, since as aliens can snipe the base humans has all the rights to stay in base to guard it.
Besides goon+ with ( now even more powerful ) basi+ have no such fear of s2 humans, and the great hs2 advantage is a now thiner.
Is there any chance to try some games ( for stats ) with goon+ back to s3?
If you don't want to bring up an official server, i can build a modded one by my own. In that case, are you intrested in stats?
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1.2 is a different game, it doesn't have rebuild-able armouries. Live with it.
Neither does 1.1. But the community modded in the option, because having the arm/medi/booster along with OM/RC rebuildable makes sense, and is a more interesting game. And guess what, since the devs are taking a "We know best aproach" (to a community created mod ::)), the players will just have to do it again.
I don't have to live with anything. I have a couple options: I can not play 1.2 on release, I can mod the game to allow this feature, hell I could just stop playing tremulous. Telling me to "live with it" just shows you're a moron.
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1.2 is a different game, it doesn't have rebuild-able armouries. Live with it.
Neither does 1.1. But the community modded in the option, because having the arm/medi/booster along with OM/RC rebuildable makes sense, and is a more interesting game. And guess what, since the devs are taking a "We know best aproach" (to a community created mod ::)), the players will just have to do it again.
I don't have to live with anything. I have a couple options: I can not play 1.2 on release, I can mod the game to allow this feature, hell I could just stop playing tremulous. Telling me to "live with it" just shows you're a moron.
rebuildable armories made it rediculously easy to drag the game to the time limit every time, and that was before it got an hp boost.
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All this talk about rebuild-able armories and medi's and stuff makes me think that SD is designed for the alien win. Since all the aliens need to do is to take down the armory, sit back and let the humans wear themselves out. Then go in for the kill. The only way humans can counter that is with energy weapons. But then since they can't get them back if they die, they camp. I have to agree with the rebuild-able team here. There isn't often that the humans win in SD because it's geared for an alien win because of the non-rebuild-able armory, it's that simple. If humans could rebuild that stuff you will find that they will leave their bases a lot more.
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It's totally human biased, all they have to do is go in and kill the OM, and then just soak up the dretches...
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If humans could rebuild that stuff you will find that they will leave their bases a lot more.
I disagree with this. Camping is only used because it delays the inevitable, by a lot. You can make the teams as unbalanced as you want, newbs/noobs will always camp for no reason, even in the stronger team. If you make camping not work (for example by having armory not rebuildable) then at least the games will not be delayed so much. Yes, some players will rush more, and if armory goes down, they camp until base is back to full strength. How is the game supposed to end?
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By coordinating a proper rush and taking out the telenodes instead?
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By the time you get all the nodes down, there would be almost nothing else left anyway, so rebuilding wouldn't make a difference in that case. The SD games end after something essential & non-rebuildable goes down. And I also think SD supports a good human team more then aliens. BTW the armory goes behind the reactor, not the other way around.
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By coordinating a proper rush and taking out the telenodes instead?
We obviously that wont work, because if it does work then the game would have ended 20 minutes ago.
The whole point of SD is a quick end.
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By coordinating a proper rush and taking out the telenodes instead?
We obviously that wont work, because if it does work then the game would have ended 20 minutes ago.
The whole point of SD is a quick end.
No, because before SD, telenodes can be rebuilt. In SD, if you take out a telenode, not only does it slow down their spawn rate making it less crowded/easier to get the second one, it can't be rebuilt even in SD Mode 2. I've ended games a ton on AA as soon as SD hits by going for nodes or eggs. When the OM, Armory, Booster, Medi, and DC aren't re-buildable instead of just encouraging the game to end like SD does, it just makes it a cheap end. It's just forcing the game to end immediately probably to the team that didn't deserve to win. I like the idea of a progressive end, making it so those getting nodes/eggs actually have a positive effect towards the end of the game, instead of making it so if you lose one armory(which is the easiest human structure to snipe because of it's size) you can no longer rush efficiently because you're forced to be a rifle. I kind of liked the ESD Concept, but I feel it was poorly set up because of Regen on Tyrant and Tyrant in general verse Pulse Suits. It just didn't work. I think SD Mode 2 is efficient enough to get the job done without making too cheap of an ending or forcing it. Camping will always be part of this game, taking the armory out and making it unbuildable only encourages camping. A less steep learning curve would help people to rush, but unfortunately there will always people who prefer to sit in base.
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allowing the armory to be rebuilt encourages even more camping (sd doesn't help much against a human base built to take advantage of unlimited barricades).
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If you expose your arm to be destroyed in first few minutes of sd, then you certainly deserve to lose. Builders have to learn how to build 1.2 human bases, this includes correct arm placing/me moves back to times where rebuildable things at sd were something exotic, building arm behind rc <3
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what if someone kills the arm and disconnects?
!revert :/
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allowing the armory to be rebuilt encourages even more camping (sd doesn't help much against a human base built to take advantage of unlimited barricades).
I don't think so. In the days when the arm couldn't be rebuilt, I remember people being paranoid as fuck about losing it, and there would always be a repairer stuck on it. I'm much more willing to make a rush if I feel confident I won't be helpless after I return, no? SD Mode 2 is one of the best updates we've had over the years.
Also, about this whole aliens-winning-more deal:
Are you guys testing with ff on yet? FF will surely be a part of any self-respecting server, and from my experience it has a much greater effect on the alien side of the game.
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Don't forget that the armoury has 140 more health than it did in 1.1, and in 1.1 an advanced goon could kill one at range in all of three seconds; now with its health increase and the barb repeat and regen increase, that's the biggest threat to the armoury taken away.
Are you guys testing with ff on yet? FF will surely be a part of any self-respecting server, and from my experience it has a much greater effect on the alien side of the game.
Ideally the game would be balanced with FF on or off, so we're going to finish balancing FF off first (to a satisfactory extent).
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Don't forget that the armoury has 140 more health than it did in 1.1, and in 1.1 an advanced goon could kill one at range in all of three seconds; now with its health increase and the barb repeat and regen increase, that's the biggest threat to the armoury taken away.
But this where I completely disagree.
How does it sit with alien players? What are they supposed to do? The more you improve humans, the harder you make it for aliens. As if it wasn't hard enough already.
In regards to goons killing the armory...so what? That is what goons and any alien should do. The problem isn't the armory, its the humans that let goons have the opportunity or comfort to launch those attacks. When humans sit in the base, goons get confident and start jumping into the base. You either kill the goons BEFORE they get close enough to hurt the base or damage them enough so that they won't risk a siege.
For each improvement aliens have received, they received a significant handicap. Basilisks and marauders are better, goons and rants are less so. Regen changes have definitely been a give and take, heavier on the take side of things. The alien base is better and weaker at the same time considering the removal of some structures; more and less damage from other defenses. Jesus, dretches can't even damage rets anymore. OMG DRETCHES WERE SO OVERPOWERED, THEY WERE KILLING THE BASE!
Humans....what have they lost in any of these changes? And seriously, were humans that broken in 1.1 that they needed improvements on top of alien nerfs?
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Well... the stats seemed to think so.
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Well... the stats seemed to think so.
I honestly want to see Norf or anyone else balance the game so that the stats are even. Absurdity is all I have left.
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But this where I completely disagree.
How does it sit with alien players? What are they supposed to do? The more you improve humans, the harder you make it for aliens. As if it wasn't hard enough already.
In regards to goons killing the armory...so what? That is what goons and any alien should do. The problem isn't the armory, its the humans that let goons have the opportunity or comfort to launch those attacks. When humans sit in the base, goons get confident and start jumping into the base. You either kill the goons BEFORE they get close enough to hurt the base or damage them enough so that they won't risk a siege.
For each improvement aliens have received, they received a significant handicap. Basilisks and marauders are better, goons and rants are less so. Regen changes have definitely been a give and take, heavier on the take side of things. The alien base is better and weaker at the same time considering the removal of some structures; more and less damage from other defenses. Jesus, dretches can't even damage rets anymore. OMG DRETCHES WERE SO OVERPOWERED, THEY WERE KILLING THE BASE!
Humans....what have they lost in any of these changes? And seriously, were humans that broken in 1.1 that they needed improvements on top of alien nerfs?
Goons are better than their 1.1 counterparts (currently). Much better. Just pounce more often.
Tyrants - debatable. I can't comment much about them since I haven't used them too much (recently), but a good charger is very deadly. The rant's range/width should have been nerfed anyway, because in 1.1...it was ridiculous. In 1.2, there's no more being hit by a random noob slash that shouldn't have hit but somehow did.
Regen - I think this aspect is great, and I've played aliens more often than I've played humans. It injects a lot more strategy into Tremulous - forward eggs, healing/grabbing basilisks, less repeated camping around corners, etc..
Alien base - how exactly is it weaker? Hives do more damage, the bees are faster and the repeat is lower; trappers are pretty much the same; barricades are overall much more useful; acid tubes - not sure how to interpret the values in Tremulous.h, since the names are a little weird, but they feel pretty similar. You said structures were removed - what was removed other than the mostly useless hovel (marginally useful if you have a good builder, but most of the time it is not)?
Overall, I don't think aliens were really nerfed; some of them just require a change in tactics. (Emphasis on overall - I believe the goon chomp is slightly nerfed, while the goon pounce is pretty damn overpowered; in other words, minor aspects might have been nerfed, but overall, aliens were not)
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Pounce is dumb and let me spell it out for you.
Pounce- hits 1 person.
- is less effective at range.
- is negated heavily by armor.
- takes a long time to charge.
Chomping
- Is faster (1.1)
- Can do double damage for a head bite
- Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce).
- Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)
The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly. But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp. The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one. That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap. Its takes skill to headchomp. It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.
The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs). Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.
*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1
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Rants are weaker
The new trample is powerful. Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.
Drawbacks
- Big
- Slow
- Can't jump
- Has to trample to move fast
Advantages
- Decent slash damage
- Double damage on head shots
- Can chain tramples consistently
- Huge health
1.2 fucks up the advantages
1.2 Changes
- Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)
- Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point)
- Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
- Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)
So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck. You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out. You just soak up hits. Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion. The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.
BBBBut....but aliens are supposed to work as a team now!!!!
I'll address this below
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Humans have advantages that are intrinsic to the team. These are things that aliens can not do.
Humans can
- Move and attack independently
- Attack outside of their enemies' range
- Easily attack in groups without damaging each other (focus fire)
Aliens can't attack and retreat at the same time. Since their attacks are melee ranged, and some are tied to a motion, alien attacks are dependent on their movement.
An alien is always in a human's range when they attack. Many situations allow humans to fight outside an alien's range.
The biggest advantage of all is the fact that group of humans can deal damage much easier than a group of aliens. Take any group of humans, place their backs to a wall, and they can deal more damage safely than aliens. Take any group of aliens and have them descend on a human. It is chaos. Aliens have to move to get in range but they can't move through each other. If 2 aliens are both in range of the human, then they are also in range of each other's attacks. Its a mess and takes way more coordination. This is the crowding problem of aliens
So all this talk about aliens requiring team work now is doubly handicapping them. Aliens have to overcome an intrinsic weakness to the team (crowding) to overcome the newly impossed weakness (nerfed regen/buffed humans/nerfed classes). By making aliens depend on a basilisk or more coordination to be effective, it forces them to cause more difficulty for each other later when they go to attack.
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tl;dq
This is perhaps the best post I've read on these forums.
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I put this in three posts instead of one really long one.
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BBBBBBBut the stats, look at the stats!!!!!!! OMG Aliens have better win stats. STATS!!!!!!
Plenty of players can explain why aliens win more than humans. There is no point to rehashing the same points made and that should be common knowledge by now. I'll give a different take on the stat discrepency.
Stage 1, rifle vs dretch, the rifle player will win more than a dretch. Period. If rifleman can aim and sees the dretch, he should kill it. Take a group of rifles and a group of dretches (this is a common scenario on ACTS), and the group of rifles should win with less loses.
This proposition justifies 3 things about aliens I want to point out.
1) Aliens are not always overpowered, especially dretches
2) Aliens have to use teamwork in 1.1.
3) Aliens need the 'overpowered' dragoons and rants
1) Aliens can and will lose if all they have are dretches. Humans can and do easily reach stage 3 simply by killing dretches. The fact that humans don't win have more to with the challenge of transfering dretching killing skills to base killing skills. We have all seen it. Human team mows down waves of dretch but can't kill the alien base. It isn't alien's fault. It is the human team's fault for not developing those skills. When humans actually have the skill to kill bases (on top of dretch killing), they usually win.
2) Aliens would rarely make it past stage 1 or win if they didn't already use enough teamwork. Using 'more teamwork' as a justification for nerfing aliens isn't valid. Because dretches are easily killed by competent human players with the default rifle, aliens have to rely on a time worn military tactic of the forlorn hope. Meaning that the leading aliens rush, dies, but the second wave finishes off the enemy. This is used all through out the alien stages for attacking and is probably why aliens are so much better at killing bases when sudden death comes.* Aliens have to develop those skill early on. Humans can just camp.
3)Since dretches, basilisks, and to some degree marauders are easily killed by groups of humans (with a default rifle no less), dragoons and rants are needed to tip the balance in their favor. Aliens have to suffer more losses to kill *good* human players, so the low evo cost of dragoons is slightly justified here. Not only that, but as humans stage up, the losses become heavier for aliens. So the rant is pretty much the only alien that can stand up to groups of humans with advanced weapons or armor. If humans actually played stage 3 like they played stage 1, rants wouldn't be much of a threat.
Since playing aliens does some intrinsic challenges (things that humans can do that aliens can't), aliens are far more deserving and suited to use their powerful classes. A dretch plays similiar to a goon, goons play similiar to a rant. If aliens can make it to stage 3, they are better able to exploit its advantages.
Humans on the other hand do not exploit the advantages of their stage progression as much. MD'ing dretches is different than killing an alien base. In theory, the human weapon skills transfer much easier than skills of different alien classes. A gun is a gun. But the act of sieging a base is much harder than killing or camping. So, humans should be able to transfer their skills to win but rarely do.
The human is weaker than aliens. The human team is stronger than aliens. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Humans just have to develop better skills. Fiddling with the numbers won't change that. Tremulous lacks from it simple objectives and probably turrets in preparing human players to win.* Aliens win in spite of the odds because aliens just have to be smarter and more accurate to make it out of stage 1. Humans don't face a real challenge unless there is a *good* goon player or until stage 3. So, they lose more when games go to SD or when goons hit the field early.
Finally, /share and /donate have ruined the game. I remember when share and donate didn't exist. Rants and goons were less common. 'Killwhoring' was a drawback because it didn't spread evos around to the team. So if a goon or rant with 9 evos meant that 9 evos didn't get used to make more classes to support the killwhoring player. In order to have a team of rants outside of your base meant that the other team was far better than yours. Not that someone could pull down console and type. Remove /share and /donate and your server would be the better for it.
*The base to base fighting gameplay of Tremulous makes tactics like the forlorn hope too accessible and effective. Alien teamwork isn't necessarily better or harder in this case, its more that Tremulous doesn't require more skills than simply organizing rushes.
Note: liberal use of the word should here. Honestly, learn to shoot.
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Not meaning to steal your thunder, temple. ;]
I think that the use of the word teamwork is hardly proper when referring to the alien team. It is assumed that the aliens should be able to work as a collective. This assumption is correct. But how they work is completely and totally different than how the humans work.
Humans are most effective in groups, as, like temple said, they have a strong ability to focus fire. Aliens, however, are largely better off as soloers. This is due to their low range and high health. Aliens require coordination and teamwork at the enemy base, but (barring the first three offensive classes) they are very effective reaching the enemy base alone. Humans, however, require teamwork to reach the enemy base (depending on the path that they take, the size of the teams, and the player-skill-stack).
I feel like a lot of the changes in 1.2 try to force teamwork on aliens to reach human base which, really, shouldn't be too much of an issue. One of the things that drew me to Tremulous originally was the fact that tyrants were terrifying. So were goons. Hell, so were maras! And this was all solo. I loved Tremulous because it was great accomplishment when my buds and I took down that rant. It was an accomplishment when we heard that fuckin' 'goon moan for it's little life. And man, aliens were fun as hell to play! Each class had a very distinct role and a different style of play. Now, they still do, but they've been all jumbled up and switched around and maybe, even, a little bit broken. Don't get me wrong now, I've had a lot of fun playing humans on GPP, but aliens? I guess they just don't make 'em like they used to.
There's something about them now that simply makes them ineffective alone (could it be the nerfed attack speed?). Against turrets? Yeah, you should be switching out snipers and rants. Hell, against a persistent group of advancing humans, you should be switching out your snipers and rants. This has always been true! But against a group of two or three? You earned that fuckin' 'rant. It should work well.
Of course, this whole bit could be discounted with "all classes are great if you master them!" and yeah, I agree, they are! Always have been. But much of these changes have made aliens not restricted by skill, but by the game's coded rules.
Odd formatting to make this seem less like a terrifying wall.
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I'll reply to your posts as I read them (since they're long).
Pounce is dumb and let me spell it out for you.
Pounce- hits 1 person.
- is less effective at range.
- is negated heavily by armor.
- takes a long time to charge.
Chomping
- Is faster (1.1)
- Can do double damage for a head bite
- Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce).
- Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)
The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly. But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp. The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one. That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap. Its takes skill to headchomp. It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.
The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs). Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.
*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1
Part of your post does not debate what I have said. I also think the pounce should be changed, and I've stated this many times. However...
SEMI-overpowered? Are you kidding me? It's way overpowered, if you know how to use it.
If you really think dragoons have been nerfed despite the massive boost to pounce and the nerf to chomp, then you just suck at playing dragoons. Sorry. Adapt.
When I can consistently (as in, 30-40 kills before I finally die) pounce someone who was hard to chomp in 1.1 (this was in a devmapped 1v1, simply to test things. the human was either s2 or had a chainsuit), pounce is overpowered. When I can pounce 4-5 s1 humans while approaching from a distance (no MDs), pounce is overpowered. When I don't even bother to try when I see a lone human - even a chainsuit - pounce is overpowered. Not semi-overpowered. Really overpowered.
Also, pouncing is NOT as slow as you state it is. Learn to pounce, seriously. It's almost as quick, if not quicker, than chomping is (according to Tremulous.h, pouncing is actually 100 msec faster, now [edit: to clarify, relative to 1.1/1.2 chomping repeat, not absolutely], though I could be reading the values incorrectly. I doubt I am. Regardless, the speeds definitely feel very close).
Seriously, this is why people who don't know how to use something shouldn't comment that much on balance; they think it's underpowered when in reality they just don't know how to use it.
For reference:
+#define LEVEL3_CLAW_REPEAT 900
+#define LEVEL3_CLAW_U_REPEAT 800
+#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME 800
+#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME_UPG 800
Also, to address some of your points,
You're forgetting the insane knockback pounce has, and how it affects human dodging. Think about how you can use this to your advantage.
Range means nothing. It's very easy to close range with pounce, unless the map is bad for pouncing.
Pounce is not really negated heavily by armor. 3 pounces kill a human, 5 pounces kill a bsuit.
It takes a long time to chomp, now, too. Even in 1.1, pounce time == chomp time. Learn to pounce.
Edit: I forgot to add that pouncing also dodges fire, whether you'd like to admit it or not. ESPECIALLY if you pounce quickly (which you obviously do not).
Ok, sorry if I've been offensive (I just think your points are utterly wrong), and sorry for not responding to everything, but the madafakas in my clan are pressuring me to scrim, so I have to go. I'll respond to the rest tomorrow. I hope it's better
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You don't even know what you are talking about. Figure out what LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME and LEVEL3_POUNCE_CHARGE_TIME means.
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Are you guys testing with ff on yet? FF will surely be a part of any self-respecting server, and from my experience it has a much greater effect on the alien side of the game.
Ideally the game would be balanced with FF on or off, so we're going to finish balancing FF off first (to a satisfactory extent).
I don't understand why FF off takes priority in balancing. Where did you guys get used to playing with FF off?
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You don't even know what you are talking about. Figure out what LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME and LEVEL3_POUNCE_CHARGE_TIME means.
Look at http://pastebin.ca/1720754
Thanks
You not only don't know what you're talking about, but you also don't know how to play this game
EDIT: In case you miss it, -#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_CHARGE_TIME 700
Double EDIT: if you want to go by +#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_REPEAT 400, then you should also keep in mind that pounces don't have to be fully charged. Overall, it's still around the same speed as chomp (if you always fully charge, probably a bit slower - probably, because you probably won't miss many pounces, but you might miss a chomp or two, which should be taken into account in terms of time).
The point: You only really need 1 full charge to disorient a human long enough to pounce-rape him with multiple weaker pounces, so the speed is pretty much the same or faster (especially after you take into account chomp misses, which happens to even the best players. Once players get used to it, I doubt they will miss nearly as often with pouncing).
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you also don't know how to play this game
LOL I love/hate how easily we all get offensive around here. This really has to be the worst forum ever for getting along with people
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I was born offensive
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Nice edit. You are figuring out how dragoons work.
The point I was making was 1) What was the problem with 1.1 goons 2) How does 1.2 solve the problem?
1.2 has already created another problem in its solution.
A person can adapt all they want. The 1.2 change is different. But is it better?
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You can pounce someone to death if you are in a open space. 'Pouncerape' is easily counted by....walking behind something.
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Are you joking? I've known how dragoons work for a while. I'll bet anything my dragoon is way better than yours is, since I actually know how to pounce. In fact, play me anytime you wish. I just realized I didn't make my point clear (about misses affecting time, and also about smaller charges lowering the overall time).
Try responding to my other points (knockback, dodging fire, etc.) instead of repeating the same rhetoric all the time. You stated goons were weaker in 1.2 than they were in 1.1; I'm stating they're much stronger (and I don't agree with the new pounce).
Also, walking behind something doesn't really counter pouncing that effectively once dragoons get used to it. Pounces are quick, especially since you can also jump directly after a pounce with speed. I've pounced players to death on every single map I've played, in open spaces and in cramped spaces. In fact, cramped spaces are sometimes easier, since it also means the human has less room to dodge.
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There are too many different avenues to attack this; I'm not interested holding Tremulous 101 from a code or tactical standpoint with you.
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That's a great excuse for someone who doesn't have anything logical to counter with. Why don't I prove to you how overpowered pounce is in-game? 1v1 or teamplay, I don't care.
Also, you're ridiculous, because I've seen how you play in-game (unless you're not ScottFree), and you definitely should not try to tell other people how to play Tremulous/what's balanced/unbalanced.
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Could you use numbers to explain to me how the 1.2 goon is overpowered compared to the 1.1 goon?
You are flat out wrong but since you are itching for an argument, lets see if you can actually prove your point without taunting.
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Rants are weaker
The new trample is powerful. Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.
Drawbacks
- Big
- Slow
- Can't jump
- Has to trample to move fast
Advantages
- Decent slash damage
- Double damage on head shots
- Can chain tramples consistently
- Huge health
1.2 fucks up the advantages
1.2 Changes
- Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)
- Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point)
- Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
- Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)
So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck. You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out. You just soak up hits. Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion. The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.
...
Assuming I'm reading this right... Tyrants used to take 1500ms for max charge, and 750ms as the minimum for a mini-charge. Now it's 1000ms max and 375ms min, so you takes less time to charge than before. In both versions you could hold the charge button up to 3 seconds before it auto-goes.
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I think he means actual speed of the charge, not time it takes to ready a charge, but fuck if I know cause I haven't played 1.2.
(warning:highly intoxicated)
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You can't chain tramples anymore. I haven't figured out the exact cause and don't care to. I do know that the code has a obvious 'f you' to anyone used to 1.1 with the delay between max charge and auto trample. Its lame and prevents you from chain trampling (trample then immediately trample again). Also, you can't trample, stop, and charge up another either. You have to start over almost but I haven't figured out the exact formula.
I did find something amusing. How can a goon or rant kill a node? Rants and goons swipe so slow that you will killed by something before you can take it out. Trampling a node is weird, I guess its possible but hard to tell. Pouncing a node is just lame. Dretches can't even damage nodes. So, the classes that can reliably kill a node is a mara or basilisk.
I started to use pounce more and I did see a big difference. But I realized that I'd be far more deadly without it. I'm just deadly with pounce because I've to be. But chomp is on a 900 ms repeat, meaning basically can't chmomp more than once per second. Yes. Its 800 ms for advanced goon so I guess it all evens out. LOL
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guys. I fucking love you. We're all trem players, we shouldn't fight I mean damn, 1.2 bad, 1.2 good, I don't even care. I'm just glad there are people like me that CARE. Jeez. Goodnight.
(yeah, you know.)
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temple: you are very, very good at listing the same points multiple times to make them seem more important
Pounce
hits 1 person. <-(lol?) this...
is less effective at range. (<-yeah, right)
is negated heavily by armor.
takes a long time to charge. <-...and this are the same. Also don't need full charge
you forgot knockback, which is an improvement
Chomping
Is faster (1.1) <-...same thing...
Can do double damage for a head bite
Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce). <-...oh look another 1
Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)
so you are saying goon gets more hits with chomp time wise. Chomping misses don't count as was already pointed out, which makes pounce seem a lot better
The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly. But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp. The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one. That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap. Its takes skill to headchomp. It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.
The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs). Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.
goons ARE too powerful in 1.1 (1vs1 normal goon can win against any human incl. chainsuit with chomping), except against a very good dodger. Also chomping was a lot better then pounce. So chomping was nerfed, pounce buffed (too much?).
*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1 <-so was chomp, arguably even more so
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Rants are weaker
The new trample is powerful. Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.
Drawbacks
Big
Slow <-this
Can't jump (<-can jump barely, but with some strafejumping can get away fast. Also irrelevant in battle)
Has to trample to move fast <-and this (if you list them twice, this is an advantage)(likewise, goon needs pounce, mara needs jumping)
Advantages
Decent slash damage
Double damage on head shots
Can chain tramples consistently
Huge health
1.2 Changes
Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate) <- Only -12.5% in 1.2. Don't regen during a fight, and shouldn't right outside human base. So that is a good change
Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point) Not a "1.2 Change", so same as "Big". Again listing something many times?
Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)
So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck. You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out. You just soak up hits. Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion. The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.
Don't trample into a fight alone if you can't win alone. Duh.
Humans have advantages that are intrinsic to the team. These are things that aliens can not do.
Humans can
Move and attack independently What the hell? Aliens are MUCH more independent
Attack outside of their enemies' range Aliens are much faster so they can just run, also they get to choose whether to fight at all or not
Easily attack in groups without damaging each other (focus fire)
Aliens can't attack and retreat at the same time. Since their attacks are melee ranged, and some are tied to a motion, alien attacks are dependent on their movement. But they can hit and THEN run like hell
An alien is always in a human's range when they attack But not in LoS unless they are dumb. Many situations allow humans to fight outside an alien's range.
The biggest advantage of all is the fact that group of humans can deal damage much easier than a group of aliens. Take any group of humans, place their backs to a wall, and they can deal more damage safely than aliens. Take any group of aliens and have them descend on a human. It is chaos. Aliens have to move to get in range but they can't move through each other. If 2 aliens are both in range of the human, then they are also in range of each other's attacks. Its a mess and takes way more coordination. This is the crowding problem of aliens
So all this talk about aliens requiring team work now is doubly handicapping them. Aliens have to overcome an intrinsic weakness to the team (crowding) to overcome the newly impossed weakness (nerfed regen/buffed humans/nerfed classes). By making aliens depend on a basilisk or more coordination to be effective, it forces them to cause more difficulty for each other later when they go to attack.
Hey, you would be very good at lobbying stupid governments! Do you live in USA by any chance? Also, learn to play aliens.
About your 3rd long post: Stats are the only way to really balance win/loss ratio, not just individual game mechanics. Dretches don't need to attack a group of humans alone, basi would have to be really dumb to do that, and maras can hit and run. But all of them would be dumb to attack from where humans have loooong LoS to. /share is not in official .qvm
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Temple,
I have the feeling numbers wouldn't convince you, so why don't I just show you in-game?
Jeez, I've just read some of your other posts, and if I did beforehand, I wouldn't have bothered replying. You don't know how to play Tremulous. Tyrants are not slow! Learn to strafe jump...
Also, rifles do NOT win against dretches "period." If so, please explain to my clan how we consistently kill the rifles of other clans with dretches with few deaths. You're making a grave mistake; you're confusing your own inability to play well with imbalance.
Anyway, let me prove it to you in-game; that's far easier than writing walls of text only a few people will read. Also,
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=78
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=1015
First of all, you didn't do too well (which could have other factors, ok). Second of all, you seem to have played a total of 8 games recently, and you think you can comment on balance? I've been playing 1.2 since August, and I've only recently decided to start commenting on it. Unless you have other IPs/aliases under which you play...do you?
I still can't believe you think rants and goon pouncing are slow...lol
Also, lol @ plague bringer for prematurely ejaculating
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Pounce is dumb and let me spell it out for you.
Pounce- hits 1 person.
- is less effective at range.
- is negated heavily by armor.
- takes a long time to charge.
Chomping
- Is faster (1.1)
- Can do double damage for a head bite
- Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce).
- Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)
The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly. But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp. The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one. That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap. Its takes skill to headchomp. It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.
The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs). Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.
*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1
You seem to be rather confused as to how the mechanics of 1.2 gameplay work (or 1.1 for that matter). AppleJuice has provided numbers and supported his claims; yet you continue to post patent nonsense without providing any evidence whatsoever. I am surprised, based on your previous posts, to know that you even play Tremulous at all (perhaps this is why your skill is so poor); an outsider who has barely been playing at all would talk of pounce being underpowered in 1.2 (rather, the focus in 1.2 is now for aliens to rely more on secondary attacks as opposed to 1.1). As for 1.1, the opinion of most who have been playing for 3+ years is that aliens have always been overpowered; because of s1 dragoon, as well as other factors such as regen (which have thankfully been fixed accordingly).
Rants are weaker
The new trample is powerful. Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.
Drawbacks
- Big
- Slow
- Can't jump
- Has to trample to move fast
Advantages
- Decent slash damage
- Double damage on head shots
- Can chain tramples consistently
- Huge health
1.2 fucks up the advantages
1.2 Changes
- Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)
- Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point)
- Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
- Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)
So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck. You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out. You just soak up hits. Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion. The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.
BBBBut....but aliens are supposed to work as a team now!!!!
I'll address this below
*******************************************************************
Humans have advantages that are intrinsic to the team. These are things that aliens can not do.
Humans can
- Move and attack independently
- Attack outside of their enemies' range
- Easily attack in groups without damaging each other (focus fire)
Aliens can't attack and retreat at the same time. Since their attacks are melee ranged, and some are tied to a motion, alien attacks are dependent on their movement.
An alien is always in a human's range when they attack. Many situations allow humans to fight outside an alien's range.
The biggest advantage of all is the fact that group of humans can deal damage much easier than a group of aliens. Take any group of humans, place their backs to a wall, and they can deal more damage safely than aliens. Take any group of aliens and have them descend on a human. It is chaos. Aliens have to move to get in range but they can't move through each other. If 2 aliens are both in range of the human, then they are also in range of each other's attacks. Its a mess and takes way more coordination. This is the crowding problem of aliens
So all this talk about aliens requiring team work now is doubly handicapping them. Aliens have to overcome an intrinsic weakness to the team (crowding) to overcome the newly impossed weakness (nerfed regen/buffed humans/nerfed classes). By making aliens depend on a basilisk or more coordination to be effective, it forces them to cause more difficulty for each other later when they go to attack.
Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.
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Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.
I find it quite obvious that temple was referring to the advantages of the 1.1 tyrant, as he specifically states that 1.2 fucks up those advantages.
The rant should be an aggressive class. It should, in fact, be the most aggressive class.
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Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.
I find it quite obvious that temple was referring to the advantages of the 1.1 tyrant, as he specifically states that 1.2 fucks up those advantages.
The rant should be an aggressive class. It should, in fact, be the most aggressive class.
1.2 Changes
* Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)
Tyrants are still very aggressive; they just require a different style of playing
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Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.
I find it quite obvious that temple was referring to the advantages of the 1.1 tyrant, as he specifically states that 1.2 fucks up those advantages.
The rant should be an aggressive class. It should, in fact, be the most aggressive class.
I specifically stated that the role of tyrant has been changed. Also, as AppleJuice has pointed out, I was referring to temple stating that tyrant has huge health in 1.2. You can no longer blindly rush bases as tyrant by yourself; you need to have at least a semi-coordinated effort on the part of your team, with basilisks providing a forward healing aura, your grangers building forward bases, and advanced mara/advanced dragoon as necessary. The grownups are talking, please leave your rudimentary high school analytical thinking skills out of this discussion.
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I tried to spell it out for you and AppleJuice as simple as possible. But you are still missing the point. You really don't understand what worked in 1.1 and its makes talking to about 1.2 pointless.
Chomp has more utility than Pounce.
Trample was helpful due to its speed, not its damage.
Now 1.2 makes pounce and trample more damaging. But that's not helpful in playing the goon or rant. In fact, it makes playing them worse because the deficit of having a slower chomp or slash can not be compensated by a strong pounce or trample.
I've already explained why. Tired to repeating the same thing to you.
***********************************************************************
For the record, the trample is slower overall. It no longer auto tramples when fulling charged (its coded to wait 2 whole seconds after a full charge before firing). Trample also can not be chained as quickly as in 1.1. There is delay when stopping and restarting trample that's longer than 1.1. Yes, you can half charge but a half trample does not cover nearly enough distance to compensate for the change.
************************************************************************
And another thing, unless you are on Dracone or Anger skill level, I'm pretty confident you are no where near my skill level. I'm absolutely confident because I've never even heard of AppleJuice. But I play DS, AA, and Official 1.2; so we can clear up any questions you have of my skill.
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You keep sinking to new lows.
I've 1v1ed both St. Anger and Dracone, and our 1v1s are very even. In fact, they're in my clan, so we play together all the time (though St. Anger is inactive).
If you play on North American servers and are involved in the skilled community and haven't heard of me, then you're a noob. There's no debating that. I've been heavily involved in the best clans since 2007. Who the fuck are you? No one I know has really heard of you or seen you in-game save for a few times.
Also, your in-game name is ScottFree, right? Are you freaking kidding? You're a terrible player...you're no where near amz181's level, let alone mine, and that is a fact.
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=78 - terrible
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=1015 - terrible
You probably haven't seen me playing because I always use aliases, but I always let the good players know who I am. Obviously, you weren't one of them, ScottFree.
Anyway, talk is useless. Why don't we have a public 1v1? You're no where near my skill level (not that I even give a fuck), so it should be pretty quick. {&} has a 1.2 server available.
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On topic:
You don't know how to pounce. You don't know how to strafe jump with a tyrant. Of course 1.1 chomping was better than 1.1 pouncing. There's no debating that. 1.2 pouncing, however, is at LEAST equal to 1.1 chomping - it depends on the situation. I also don't feel like repeating myself, but that's because you're an utter noob who doesn't know how to play, not because I've run out of logical arguments (like you have).
Again, this is why awful players should not comment on balance. Lack of skill != imbalance
1v1 me.
Scrim me.
I don't care.
Since you're "absolutely confident," there shouldn't be a problem, right? I've always supported my words with in-game play (see grudge match) - you haven't.
(@Everyone else: Sorry for the outburst, but this guy's retarded)
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are you seriously arguing that giving you more control over when trample goes off is a bad thing?
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I tried to spell it out for you and AppleJuice as simple as possible. But you are still missing the point. You really don't understand what worked in 1.1 and its makes talking to about 1.2 pointless.
Chomp has more utility than Pounce.
Trample was helpful due to its speed, not its damage.
Now 1.2 makes pounce and trample more damaging. But that's not helpful in playing the goon or rant. In fact, it makes playing them worse because the deficit of having a slower chomp or slash can not be compensated by a strong pounce or trample.
I've already explained why. Tired to repeating the same thing to you.
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For the record, the trample is slower overall. It no longer auto tramples when fulling charged (its coded to wait 2 whole seconds after a full charge before firing). Trample also can not be chained as quickly as in 1.1. There is delay when stopping and restarting trample that's longer than 1.1. Yes, you can half charge but a half trample does not cover nearly enough distance to compensate for the change.
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And another thing, unless you are on Dracone or Anger skill level, I'm pretty confident you are no where near my skill level. I'm absolutely confident because I've never even heard of AppleJuice. But I play DS, AA, and Official 1.2; so we can clear up any questions you have of my skill.
Calm down Al Sharpton.
We (the elite tremulous playerbase) know who AppleJuice is; conversely we have no idea who you even are (except from a casual comment by Dracone that you are terrible + the statistics AppleJuice has posted).
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You can't chain them as fast you could in 1.1.
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Apple Juice
I had to re-download and reinstall the client. So my stats are off. And I didn't backport or copy the key. Because anyone that pulls up stats is automatically a loser. Anyone that brings up 1vs1 in tremulous is a loser, also. But right, you play on an 'alias' so noone knows you unless you pm them. How pro of you.
But I just want to you to understand how lame you sound, its clear to me already when you quoted a decommissioned line of code as 'proof'. Not only that, but don't understand that goon's were changed so you can't just compare 1.1 and 1.2 .h files.
Strafe jumping and the such isn't news and its funny you think that's some kind of 'gotcha'. Stafe jumping or bunny hopping makes chomping better, not pounce or trample. Keep talking out your ass and I will end up 1vs1'ing you. And then you can talk about how they don't matter.
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You can't chain them as fast you could in 1.1.
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Apple Juice
I had to re-download and reinstall the client. So my stats are off. And I didn't backport or copy the key. Because anyone that pulls up stats is automatically a loser. Anyone that brings up 1vs1 in tremulous is a loser, also. But right, you play on an 'alias' so noone knows you unless you pm them. How pro of you.
But I just want to you to understand how lame you sound, its clear to me already when you quoted a decommissioned line of code as 'proof'. Not only that, but don't understand that goon's were changed so you can't just compare 1.1 and 1.2 .h files.
Strafe jumping and the such isn't news and its funny you think that's some kind of 'gotcha'. Stafe jumping or bunny hopping makes chomping better, not pounce or trample. Keep talking out your ass and I will end up 1vs1'ing you. And then you can talk about how they don't matter.
Learn to read. I never said strafe jumping helps pounce/trample (though it can affect pounce if you know how to). I said it made tyrants fast; without charge, you can simply strafe jump to go quickly, rather than wait for another charge.
I know stats are stupid, to a certain extent. However, I've actually seen you play on AA, and you suck. You also have feeder stats; 1:1 is ok, but less than that is pretty nooby, regardless of aggression. I'm a very aggressive player, and I don't get that.
1v1s suck, yes, if you do them incorrectly. I'm talking about a devmapped 1v1 with no building, one class against another (goon vs s2, goon vs s3, rifle vs mara, etc.). If you were a part of the skilled NA community (which you are obviously not), you would know that most of us use these to determine skill (along with scrims).
I'm also not running from a 1v1; in fact, I'm ASKING you for one. And regardless of who wins (I definitely will), they do mean something.
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if this is just going to turn into a pissing contest between you two, take it to PMs
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I just want to make it clear that I did not start the dickwaving 'elite community' bullshit.
If you played on AA, what name did you use? Because unless your name was Dracone, there no way you were better than me.
Time will tell though, I'm pretty sure that GPP or 1.2 won't have the same support once the new car smell wears off.
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I don't play on AA, and from what I just saw (the past 10 or so games on the 1.2 server), you're probably among the lower tier of players. You're nowhere near the top. Even Dracone says you're a noob (as in, not even 1 level below him).
Ozzy runs AA and probably plays only on that server, and he's way better than you are...I can name a ton of better players from AA.
Anyway, yeah, take it to PMs if you want to continue. But until you can prove yourself in-game (so far, you've just made excuses [MY FPS SUCKS, THIS MAP SUCKS]), you're just an idiot.
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My good old COM pal temple, yeah? Yeah, I'm just here to tell you you're a fucking moron.
If you don't know AppleJuice, you are not experienced enough in the community to possibly be actually skilled. AppleJuice, at his best, is within the top 10, and at some times has been better than me and St. Anger.
I don't know who fucked you up the ass, but I've been following what's been going on just through skimming through this topic and listening to Apple, and sometimes Yarou. You need to learn how to crawl in the game before you can start running around these forums. So far you don't know shit. Uninstall or shut the fuck up.
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Would you guys quit showing off your gigantic fucking e-dicks? Keep it to pms, in-game, your private irc channel. Fuckin' vent/teamspeak/skype it. I don't give a shit if you bloody text each other, but keep it out of the general section or shut the fuck up.
Edit to avoid a bump; Moose, you're adding to the spam. Shut up.
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Would you guys quit showing off your gigantic fucking e-dicks? Keep it to pms, in-game, your private irc channel. Fuckin' vent/teamspeak/skype it. I don't give a shit if you bloody text each other, but keep it out of the general section or shut the fuck up.
You are adding to flames, shut up.
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Calm down man, jesus
Anyway, eagerly awaiting phase 2!
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I'm just disappointed that instead of crafting an argument with half the effort and factual information, you and your friends have resorted to ad hominems. We can settle personal issues in game but on the forums, you really haven't done any better proving your points. I'm sorry for falling for this and derailing the discussion further.
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My good old COM pal temple, yeah? Yeah, I'm just here to tell you you're a fucking moron.
If you don't know AppleJuice, you are not experienced enough in the community to possibly be actually skilled. AppleJuice, at his best, is within the top 10, and at some times has been better than me and St. Anger.
Get the fuck out.
ps: HAPPY NEW YEARS
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I'm just disappointed that instead of crafting an argument with half the effort and factual information, you and your friends have resorted to ad hominems. We can settle personal issues in game but on the forums, you really haven't done any better proving your points. I'm sorry for falling for this and derailing the discussion further.
Sorry, but I've (so have a few others in this thread, and you haven't addressed their points) made plenty of arguments against your absolutely wrong claims. However, most of your arguments stem from an inability to play well, so the best solution is to...learn to play, not read walls of text.
lol anger
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If you played on AA, what name did you use? Because unless your name was Dracone, there no way you were better than me.
Ohhh shiiiiiit.
I didn't really take offense, I just wanted to wave my dick. *waves*
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roflysst
i like this thread. Temples e-penis is tiny compared to everyone else imo. *waves*
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Temples e-penis is tiny.
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YEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYY everyone gets a [build] turret on this page save temple. YEEYYY
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wow. Everyone hates each other because we cannot agree whether or not 1.2 is 'total-fucking-donkey-shit' or 'shit'.
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Oh my god I just lost it. Can I sig that, frazzler?
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lol
Changes seem a lot more balance. This irrational thinking of Norf worked in a kinda fucked up way.
gj