Tremulous Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Firstinaction on April 19, 2011, 03:12:43 pm

Title: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on April 19, 2011, 03:12:43 pm
I see about 10 or so active mappers so far but just a thought…
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on April 19, 2011, 05:58:04 pm
Show me.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on April 19, 2011, 06:46:20 pm
Random Dev Shots is dead and so is the Released Maps section.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on April 20, 2011, 12:31:22 am
Specula, Perseus, compact. Those are just three of the recently released maps.

If there was to be a mapping competition it should be in the summer.

Oh and also...

The Tremcentral Mapping Contest was probably the best one ever ;p
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on April 20, 2011, 09:46:39 am
Specula, Perseus, compact. Those are just three of the recently released maps.
That's just about it.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Loki on May 02, 2011, 07:05:58 pm
That competition can make us active ahah but we need some AWARD!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on May 02, 2011, 07:59:53 pm
I've been thinking about doing some more mapping.  Perhaps in the summer.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on May 02, 2011, 08:10:53 pm
I've been thinking about doing some more mapping.  Perhaps in the summer.
Can i get a Booyah?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 02, 2011, 09:36:47 pm
I've been thinking about doing some more mapping.  Perhaps in the summer.


Remember that we were going to get on MSN sometime and finish NTCS....
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 06, 2011, 12:31:04 am
I've been thinking about doing some more mapping.  Perhaps in the summer.
Can i get a Booyah?
Booyah!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Demolution on May 06, 2011, 02:14:00 am
Hell yes.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 08, 2011, 05:34:08 am
I've been thinking about doing some more mapping.  Perhaps in the summer.
Ay get brain while your at it.   
last time I spoke to him about his tut's was last year when I was spamming pointless maps that didnt get finished...
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 12, 2011, 03:58:26 pm
I'm really waiting for a scene competition. 

Just a thought

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15665.0;attach=1315;image
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: ULTRA Random ViruS on May 14, 2011, 10:20:51 am
I'm really waiting for a scene competition. 

Just a thought

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15665.0;attach=1315;image
I give up.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on May 14, 2011, 06:17:30 pm
I think we should have an official mapping competition June 9th to the 1st of July.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: nubcake on May 15, 2011, 02:48:28 am
Sounds interesting...
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Xedoh on May 15, 2011, 02:36:11 pm
I would really like to have a contest, I just hope we can get enough people to participate (I probably would). June-July sounds quite good imo, but maybe extend it a bit like July 15th or something.

Oh and if there was a contest, how should the Judging work?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Ingar on May 15, 2011, 03:19:39 pm
Maybe this could be a mapping contest that concentrates on creating actual playable Tremulous maps.

Previous contests have suffered from the following problems:
- not enough time
- not enough mappers
- not enough visibility / publicity
- etc

I"ll say it out loud: making good Tremulous maps is very hard, even the best mappers
are capable of producing an awesome looking but otherwise unplayable map.

Tremulous maps need play time, time to find good base spots and the dark corners to hide.
Time to test the entire map with every alien class, with a jetpack, with the guy in a battlesuit
who can't crouch. A real Tremulous mapping contest should reflect this.

What I propose is a three-stage contest; beta-1, beta-2 and final.

* beta-1: the contestants create their map, the jury filters out the 'unplayable' or 'broken' maps.
At this point the beta-1 maps go in rotation on a (official?) server. This will give mappers the opportunity
to get some feedback from the players. The Jury is allowed (and encouraged) to make technical comments,
all comments will be public (on the forum) and thus every mapper can benefit from it. This will ask
some engagement from the jury as well.

* beta-2: repeat beta-1. This will give mappers a chance to fix final minor issues.
Of course, there will be less time between beta-2 and final than there is between beta1 and beta2.

* final
Final judgment

For all I care, you can enter new maps up until the final stage, but of coure you would place yourself
at a serious disadvantage. If your map was denied by the jury in the first place, you still have a chance
to fix it as well.

Why three stages? Third time's a charm!

THIS IS JUST MY IDEA

So this is not an official contest yet, but I can make it one.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Meisseli on May 15, 2011, 03:39:51 pm
I"ll say it out loud: making good Tremulous maps is very hard, even the best mappers
are capable of producing an awesome looking but otherwise unplayable map.

Tremulous maps need play time, time to find good base spots and the dark corners to hide.
Time to test the entire map with every alien class, with a jetpack, with the guy in a battlesuit
who can't crouch. A real Tremulous mapping contest should reflect this.

What I propose is a three-stage contest; beta-1, beta-2 and final.
Yes. Perseus for example was almost unplayable when b1 was about to be released, it was a _lot_ different. Pevel worked on the map after feedback. B1 was kinda bad still, but with each subsequent release it finally evolved to a very nice map in b3.

Now disregarding what everyone thinks of Perseus, this is what all the maps produced should undergo. Unfortunately majority of them don't, and as a result we have very few good custom maps. Some are in general bad, others are great but have certain things that break the whole map.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: jm82792 on May 15, 2011, 08:09:09 pm
If anyone gets some decent wip maps I like I'll do some Blender models for them.

Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Kasofa on May 16, 2011, 05:13:53 pm
I would love to see a mapping contest. I still can't get netradiant to work, and I have no experience at all anyway, so I wouldn't be able to enter, but I'd like to see new maps every now and then.

-K
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 16, 2011, 05:58:10 pm
Well I would agree with Ingar's idea. (F1) with that. 
I like that especially a contest on gameplay in the map as well as design ofcource. 
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: jm82792 on May 16, 2011, 07:20:41 pm
A mapping contest would allow many people to come together and improve each others work.
Maybe we can get a couple nice maps out of the deal?
Perhaps we should have a donation link so that people can sweeten the pot for the winner?
I'd toss in $5-10 to entice the winner if we got an official donation for the winner.


Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Xedoh on May 16, 2011, 08:08:04 pm
I really like Ingars idea (even though I suck at making playable maps :-\).
I however don't think a monetary reward is such a good idea. I'd rather suggest adding the winning map (or all maps found worthy) to the default 1.2 map-pool once it's released. I'd also think some kind of signature-banner or one of this little panels next to the user name (saying something like 2011 map-contest participant/winner) could be somehow nice.

EDIT: Also, if we decide to really do the contest, maybe some advertisement on the main page would attract attention of mappers.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 16, 2011, 08:46:08 pm
Yea Ingar's idea

I think:
Judges look at: gameplay mostly, design of map, playability as human/alien

And 1st and 2nd place winners get there map on the official servers
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on May 16, 2011, 08:54:50 pm
I'd be up for it if it gets going.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 16, 2011, 09:23:44 pm
Sounds just like the Tremcental mapping competition :)

Which brings me to my question: who judges?

And no. You have to show your map at each and every beta even if nothing has been changed. It was like that for th Tremcentral mapping competition so that somebody couldn't just use an already made map. I could just resin niveus and post it at the end if I wanted and win :P

Maps in the Tremcental mapping competition:
Veddak
Ship
Spacetracks
Wrecktify
Brain's map, dun remember the name

Winner: Veddak. It was the most even of the two and was very playable. It also looked good and had lots of epic effects :D
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: nubcake on May 17, 2011, 01:16:10 am
So... is there any point making these maps...

1) Will they be compatible with 1.2?
2) Will we actually get support or will it be 50 hours of watsed effort like every other single non-default map out there?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Tremulant on May 17, 2011, 01:26:54 am
Maps in the Tremcental mapping competition:
Veddak
Ship
Spacetracks
Wrecktify
Brain's map, dun remember the name

Winner: Veddak. It was the most even of the two and was very playable. It also looked good and had lots of epic effects :D
Hmm, Wrectify and Spacetracks are both more playable than i've ever found veddak to be.

So... is there any point making these maps...
1) Will they be compatible with 1.2?
I see no reason why they wouldn't be, do you?
2) Will we actually get support or will it be 50 hours of watsed effort like every other single non-default map out there?
What manner of support are you after? If you feel that mapping is wasted effort and not enjoyable in its own right then i guess you probably shouldn't map.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on May 17, 2011, 01:31:37 am
I'd be up for it if it gets going.
ditto
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on May 17, 2011, 02:40:39 am
Brain's map, dun remember the name

Insanity by Odin.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: nubcake on May 17, 2011, 02:59:30 am
What manner of support are you after? If you feel that mapping is wasted effort and not enjoyable in its own right then i guess you probably shouldn't map.

At this current time (11:50am +10GMT) there are 10 servers with players on them. One has a user made map (fortress) with one player on it.

There would be on average one custom map for ever 10-15 default maps. It has been like this for the last 3 years. There are some awesome custom maps out there, yet no server hosts them. What is the point? When you have been mapping as long as I have (3 years) you will realise there is no point making maps as the maps stay in rotation  for about 1-3 months before being completely phased out. Every default map (yes even fucking uncreation) gets more plays than the BEST custom ones.

No offense to the devs but Uncreation is the most unbalanced, ugly brown laggy piece of shit map ive ever seen. Yet it gets more plays than all 'fun maps' (otherworld, trempship, gauntlet, paint, even mission 1 has been phased out somewhat) normal maps (strangelove, sokolov, etc etc). Why? Shitty/no support.

Dont get me wrong, I love being creative. But with lightwave and UnrealED you can do far more. I would prefer people play the maps than make something that collects dust when finished.

inbe4 'cos your maps suck/unplayable'. Im talking about everyones maps, not just my own
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on May 17, 2011, 03:36:23 am
because of the lack of auto-dl in 1.1
1.2 will have auto-dl, which should help a LOT
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Tremulant on May 17, 2011, 03:42:55 am
What manner of support are you after? If you feel that mapping is wasted effort and not enjoyable in its own right then i guess you probably shouldn't map.
At this current time (11:50am +10GMT) there are 10 servers with players on them. One has a user made map (fortress) with one player on it.
The devs operate two official servers on GPP, they're full of custom maps, not necessarily in rotation but frequently voted into play, with new ones added whenever someone prods lakitu, are you raging about GPP or expecting the devs to waste their time fiddling with 1.1?

inbe4 'cos your maps suck/unplayable'. Im talking about everyones maps, not just my own
I've no idea what your maps are, so can't comment.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 17, 2011, 08:41:50 pm
I'd be up for this, but the current proposed time frame (June to July) is unworkable for me as i has exams. I get that the competition doesnt revolve around me, but im pretty sure others might be in a similar situation, changing the competition timing to July+ would nicely fit into summer holidays.

Who knows, I might end up finishing my first map. not likely
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: jm82792 on May 17, 2011, 08:55:06 pm
It is incredible painful to see hard work degraded, muddled and distorted because it is ran by the current engine.
Plus the mapping package, GTK Radient is really lacking.
But what can we do about it?

What manner of support are you after? If you feel that mapping is wasted effort and not enjoyable in its own right then i guess you probably shouldn't map.

At this current time (11:50am +10GMT) there are 10 servers with players on them. One has a user made map (fortress) with one player on it.

There would be on average one custom map for ever 10-15 default maps. It has been like this for the last 3 years. There are some awesome custom maps out there, yet no server hosts them. What is the point? When you have been mapping as long as I have (3 years) you will realise there is no point making maps as the maps stay in rotation  for about 1-3 months before being completely phased out. Every default map (yes even fucking uncreation) gets more plays than the BEST custom ones.

No offense to the devs but Uncreation is the most unbalanced, ugly brown laggy piece of shit map ive ever seen. Yet it gets more plays than all 'fun maps' (otherworld, trempship, gauntlet, paint, even mission 1 has been phased out somewhat) normal maps (strangelove, sokolov, etc etc). Why? Shitty/no support.

Dont get me wrong, I love being creative. But with lightwave and UnrealED you can do far more. I would prefer people play the maps than make something that collects dust when finished.

inbe4 'cos your maps suck/unplayable'. Im talking about everyones maps, not just my own
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 17, 2011, 08:56:25 pm
Check list  :armoury:

Ingars Idea (check)

mappers joining competition 2011 (almost a check) head count please-  ???

date it starts (almost a check) need to have a vote on a date (start to finish) hmmm?

judges (not any yet)  ???


Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on May 17, 2011, 11:53:39 pm
I do love how votes against the idea outnumber votes for, but due to the unnecessary extra voting options, "yes" came out on top.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 18, 2011, 12:47:06 am
I'd be willing to judge, I guess. I have made a few maps (no good ones ;_;) and have played over 500 Tremulous maps, from the good ones to the bad ones. Name any map that has ever been on SST/Nuts or KoRx or US1 and I will probably know it. :) I also am a pretty good judge of playability. I KNOW that Uncreation is basically unplayable, but I still love how much fun it is to mess around on <3
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 18, 2011, 04:18:44 am
Yea defenitly menace for judge#1
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 18, 2011, 09:21:20 am
I do love how votes against the idea outnumber votes for, but due to the unnecessary extra voting options, "yes" came out on top.

Yes, the poll is a little misleading and silly but the last two options aren't necessarily equivalent to "no" votes: if the problems given are solved then presumably that would mean a "yes" vote.

The last option is pretty vague about who the "good" people are and since he probably means "mappers" then it's equivelent to the third option. In the future, please make the options explicit, distinct and have reasons given strictly in posts.

Thankfully, all we need to know is if support for a competition exists, not whether the majority like the idea.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Tremulant on May 18, 2011, 11:24:48 am
Yea defenitly menace for judge#1

Quote from: Menace: Map Judge Extraordinaire
I certainly think this map has potential and i could probably come out with a top score here normally, but ZOMG my team sucked! D:
btw, if you jump of the second box in alien base you can build outside the map, lulz.
 
Choosing judges could be rather tricky, maybe it's a job best left up to the devs.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 18, 2011, 03:49:45 pm
I can judge.  I know the software and how to map, but I'm not good enough at it that competing would be a good idea for me.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 21, 2011, 02:24:29 am
Quote from: Menace: Map Judge Extraordinaire
I certainly think this map has potential and i could probably come out with a top score here normally, but ZOMG my team sucked! D:
btw, if you jump of the second box in alien base you can build outside the map, lulz.
 

Which map did I say that on? ._. I can't recall that one...

But seriously, I'd be completely serious if I judge. I've been around longer than 90% of the other current players, have seen more maps than them, and will not be biased towards any map or mapper. I personally have never been in a mapping competition, but my brother was, and I learned about mapping competitions (in general) from the Tremcentral Mapping Competition he was in.

I realize that it's unlikely that I'll get chosen, but I just think that the chosen people should have played basically all the good maps ever, been around a while, be good at spotting the void (very useful skill) and other various things that should be fixed, should be a good judge of playability, and should not be biased.



Oh, and don't be a jerk Tremulant :3 I know I can be a jerk in-game, but this isn't in-game. I am rarely, if ever, a jerk on the forums.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Tremulant on May 21, 2011, 03:20:11 am
I just think that the chosen people should have played basically all the good maps ever
All the good maps ever? Surely we need a map competition to decide which existing maps qualify as the good maps before we can even appoint judges, then.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 21, 2011, 05:54:29 pm
I just think that the chosen people should have played basically all the good maps ever
All the good maps ever? Surely we need a map competition to decide which existing maps qualify as the good maps before we can even appoint judges, then.
Good maps = maps that have been on US1/EU1 for a while now (many months), and a few others. Such as Ethereal. *coughcough*
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on May 21, 2011, 09:00:22 pm
I just think that the chosen people should have played basically all the good maps ever
All the good maps ever? Surely we need a map competition to decide which existing maps qualify as the good maps before we can even appoint judges, then.
Good maps = maps that have been on US1/EU1 for a while now (many months), and a few others. Such as Ethereal. *coughcough*
Alright, so you have succesfully backed up his point by saying that there are "a few others" that would need to be screened by a bunch of reliable people before they got the rating of "good maps". I think that, in the interests of fairness, all maps that in your tiny opinion (any one person's opinon is tiny) qualify as good maps would have to be screened as well (even the default maps), just in case a shitty one sneaks through.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: nubcake on May 22, 2011, 02:01:11 am
Before worrying about judges why don't you worry about getting some decent mappers for the competition...
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 22, 2011, 03:41:32 am
I just think that the chosen people should have played basically all the good maps ever
All the good maps ever? Surely we need a map competition to decide which existing maps qualify as the good maps before we can even appoint judges, then.
Good maps = maps that have been on US1/EU1 for a while now (many months), and a few others. Such as Ethereal. *coughcough*
Alright, so you have succesfully backed up his point by saying that there are "a few others" that would need to be screened by a bunch of reliable people before they got the rating of "good maps". I think that, in the interests of fairness, all maps that in your tiny opinion (any one person's opinon is tiny) qualify as good maps would have to be screened as well (even the default maps), just in case a shitty one sneaks through.
Yeah yeah I know, my point is, there are some maps that are obviously and definitely bad. Such as Uncreation. And 90% of the atcs clones.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on May 22, 2011, 10:36:10 am
Yeah yeah I know, my point is, there are some maps that are obviously and definitely bad. Such as Uncreation.
I hope you don't judge anything from me  :(
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 22, 2011, 10:32:08 pm
Ok is this mapping competition still a go??

F1 , F2,  :granger:

Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Ingar on May 23, 2011, 09:38:02 pm
Ok is this mapping competition still a go??

F1 , F2,  :granger:

I think the real question is: what mappers are actually interested?
I see FirstInAction, StalKermit and your_face, but it would be nice
to have a few more.

If there's a definite yes from a number of people then we have a go.
What about august 1 for finals? Or rather a bit later?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on May 23, 2011, 09:39:13 pm
I probably will.

EDIT: Is there gonna be an approx size we're aiming for?
ATCS size, Transit size, Niveus size?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Ingar on May 23, 2011, 10:06:52 pm
I probably will.

EDIT: Is there gonna be an approx size we're aiming for?
ATCS size, Transit size, Niveus size?

Time will probably be the limiting factor: I'd aim for something tremor-sized.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 23, 2011, 11:17:01 pm
I'd be up for it if it starts July. June im too busy.

As for size, just aim for what you can realistically finish in the time given.

Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Tremulant on May 24, 2011, 01:15:41 am
my point is, there are some maps that are obviously and definitely bad. Such as Uncreation.
I quite like a round of uncreation from time to time, it's far more fun than many of the custom maps floating around US1. Of course this admission immediately disqualifies me as a judge, but then i have absolutely zero interest, not to mention no mapping experience, so that's a non-issue.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: mooseberry on May 24, 2011, 03:33:17 am
I'd be up for it if it starts July. June im too busy.

Can start it June and let it end August 1st or something like that. If we had time like that, I would enter.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on May 24, 2011, 03:58:00 am
Ingar to be sure of people joining.  Just make another thread....

People who want to join and people who want to be judges
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 24, 2011, 11:36:02 am
If this means people are going to be producing new maps then I'll certainly give it a try. I've never made a map before but I'm not going to let that stop me!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Xedoh on May 24, 2011, 06:05:34 pm
Ingar to be sure of people joining.  Just make another thread....
Yeah, I think a sign-up thread would make sense. As for me, you can count me in.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on May 24, 2011, 06:24:00 pm
Probable contestants:
A_Spork
Firstinaction
Creature of Hell
Xedoh
Odin
amz181
Nux
mooseberry
nosbrain
c4 (you are a decent mapper, and because we're short on mappers anyways, we should get all the mappers we can)
me

Judges:
Ingar

Possible judges:
Lakitu7
Lava Croft (if he's still around)
Who (if he has an ounce of serious left in him ;p so probably not)
Thorn
TRaK
Stannum (if he isn't too busy making 1.2)
FrameShifter
Tremulant
Menace

I'm sure we can find judges if we nicely ask around.

Possible date: June until end of August.

If all the mappers listed enter, it will be enough.  But we still can probably find more.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Ingar on May 24, 2011, 06:46:39 pm
Proposed timetable:

beta-1: july 15
beta-2: august 1
final: august 15

beta-1 stage might be a bit problematic though: it looks a bit tight to get a complete map,
on the other hand, it is good to compile even half a map and spot problem early on
in the development phase. Remember that only the final submission is the one that realy matters.

Maybe we should just call it alpha beta and final :)

Thorn is willing to let me use his server to run the maps.

I still need conduct some talks and work out the details,
I'll start a new thread as soon as I have all the pieces of the puzzle.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 24, 2011, 07:23:52 pm
The time period for putting out a finished map is about right. 2 months is a good amount of time to produce a map.

I'd personally want a larger time period for the first release (perhaps august 1st?), I think the beta stages will be tweaking more than anything, and shouldnt require that much time.

I think that more emphasis should be put on getting out a playable map for beta-1 than anything else, regardless of ugly textures/no decorations/poor lighting etc. etc. The problem in the last mapping competition was that too few people had playable maps at the end of it, because they (me included) had concentrated on making the map look good.

Also, for the new competition thread, i suggest you keep it in general discussion, just for more publicity. And  encourage people to post progress screenshots in the thread, as random dev shots is only really read by a handful of mappers, so you'll rarely get feedback, also it would keep the thread active.

But it sounds goood to go :)
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 24, 2011, 07:37:32 pm
I think we should let the maps (permitted they aren't game breaking) be played on the official servers even in "alpha".

Also, I'll compete :D
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 24, 2011, 07:49:21 pm
We could run the maps on EU1 only, maybe then people will play there :3

my point is, there are some maps that are obviously and definitely bad. Such as Uncreation.
I quite like a round of uncreation from time to time, it's far more fun than many of the custom maps floating around US1. Of course this admission immediately disqualifies me as a judge, but then i have absolutely zero interest, not to mention no mapping experience, so that's a non-issue.

I completely agree, Uncreation can be fun now and then. What I meant by a bad map is in a REAL game it is horribly biased towards humans.

Also, do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

@your_face:
Possible judges:
...
Tremulant

Note this:
i have absolutely zero interest

Which is too bad, Tremulant would be a pretty good judge. He's active, and is pretty good at telling a map's playability.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on May 24, 2011, 08:04:27 pm
We must work to boost his interest then. :)
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 24, 2011, 08:20:02 pm
Indeed. I quite agree. Also, there's a slight chance I can interest my brother in this competition, but it's a very slim chance, so don't add him to the list.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 24, 2011, 08:29:54 pm
If playable maps are what we're aiming for, why don't we have the first stage of this competition (perhaps even the entire competition) based explicitly on making good map layouts so people don't get distracted making them look nice. Also this would make it a lot easier to submit a first draft for playtesting/judging which will hopefully make things flow better.

Once a good layout has won, the next stage would be making the winning map layout/s look good and by the end of it we might just have some pretty AND playable maps.

Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on May 24, 2011, 09:49:44 pm
What makes a layout good?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 24, 2011, 10:18:07 pm
-No rooms that are entirely isolated/only 1 entrance.  Not too many rooms that have 4 or more entrances.  Grates.  Halls that aren't quite so thin as some have seemed to be as of recently.  Not too much BIG OPEN hallways as well :}
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 24, 2011, 10:43:31 pm
What makes a layout good?

A good question and c4 gives some good starting points to think about, but when I say "a good layout" I mean one that leads to fun games and that's something that's harder to underpin.

Just to be clear, I'm referring to all functional parts of a map and nothing that's purely aesthetic. I'm not saying a map doesn't benefit from being pretty, just that that aspect should really be addressed separately or else you can end up with a pretty map that nobody ever plays. Also I don't mean you shouldn't make the maps pretty anyway, just that the first stage of the competition should ignore that quality when judging so as to encourage playable maps.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Tremulant on May 25, 2011, 12:13:29 am
Also I don't mean you shouldn't make the maps pretty anyway, just that the first stage of the competition should ignore that quality when judging so as to encourage playable maps.
This makes a lot of sense. I suppose it also frees up those mappers who fail in the first stage to collaborate with successful entrants in the beautification process, where possible.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: UniqPhoeniX on May 25, 2011, 06:10:57 am
IMO the first stage shouldn't take too long compared to the total time given, ppl should just submit what they have by then. We don't want to spend 2 months waiting just to have a few good mappers post something and everyone else give up. Also IMO gameplay should be more important than other aspects in judging. If there are *any* kind of rewards, it shouldn't be only for 1st place.

About layouts: a good layout should have 2+ paths around any point in the map, contain several useful base locations for both teams (with no location that is significantly better than all others) and each base should have at least 2 entrances that can't be defended with all the same defences.
In case anyone doesn't know how wide hallways should be: (if 1m = 32gu and excluding decorations, lamps, columns etc)
corridors should be
  5-8m wide (niveus 2nd floor is a good example of how to make corridors only 4-5m wide right)
  4-6m high
doorways should be
  2.5-5m wide
  3-4m high
there shouldn't be any line of sight more than 40m long (except if there is plenty of cover).
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: vcxzet on May 25, 2011, 08:29:57 am
lame...
put the maps on a server and let the players be the judge
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on May 25, 2011, 06:19:34 pm
And may the smallest, brownest, most symmetrical map win! :P
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: David on May 25, 2011, 06:36:03 pm
idea:  make a mod to do proper map voting, vote at the end of every map, and see which one gets played the most.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Dr. A. Goon on May 25, 2011, 06:44:48 pm
But then US1 will not be PPPPUUUUURRRRREEEE.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 25, 2011, 07:43:43 pm
Well, it may be worthwhile for a pure version of tremulous to have a player-based judging system for all non-default maps.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: F50 on May 25, 2011, 11:27:18 pm
Its more important that the maps are played at all, the official servers is the only place to guarantee that.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: jm82792 on May 26, 2011, 12:32:34 am
Maybe I should give GTK Radiant a shot,
I've always wanted to do a map that makes modern computers sweat due to the method of brute force to get high quality.

Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 26, 2011, 10:41:30 am
Maybe I should give GTK Radiant a shot,
I've always wanted to do a map that makes modern computers sweat due to the method of brute force to get high quality.

I expect I'll manage that without the slightest hint of quality thanks to an in-depth ignorance of good mapping technique!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 26, 2011, 03:26:57 pm
When I suggested greater emphasis should be put on putting out a playable map, i didnt mean they should be fugly. I just dont want a repeat of last competition where by out of the 10 entrants, about 2 put out a map.

Looks are important, im just saying that they should be the last thing on your list, so that we can ensure we have a higher number of entries. I dont enjoy playing ugly maps, and i dont want an ugly map to win this competition :P

As for the comments about layout; there is no such thing as a good layout. What you guys have been listing are pre existing layouts in tried and tested maps. There is no single layout that is better than the rest, just those that work well in the context of a specific map.

Be creative, we've got plenty 2 corridors atcs clones. Add lifts, add a hole in the roof so that you can jump down a level, heck, add a teleporter that teleports you into the enemy base (c) [thats actually a purdy good idea :O].

I suggest having a look in this thread: http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11966.0
it gives great guidelines for making an effective layout layout.

@jm82792

I tried that :P it took me a month to make a psuedo-bumpmapped wall, and it looked pretty crud :D But join the competition, you'll probably have better luck than me, and the best way to learn radiant is by map making ;)

@organisers

Can we use things from maps weve already made? Not anything like structure or layout, but just some eye candy (essentially premade models... except their not models, and are made in radiant) for example i made a tiny ship a while back, which doesnt really have a function, just something that players can look at. It'd be much the same as me using pre-made models, and would help with the asthetics of the map. PWETTY PWEASE!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 26, 2011, 07:00:30 pm
@organisers

Can we use things from maps weve already made? Not anything like structure or layout, but just some eye candy (essentially premade models... except their not models, and are made in radiant) for example i made a tiny ship a while back, which doesnt really have a function, just something that players can look at. It'd be much the same as me using pre-made models, and would help with the asthetics of the map. PWETTY PWEASE!

I'm not an organizer, but I think that if it's just a small model then It's okay, so long as it doesn't greatly affect the map (if it's detail it should be fine). There's no real difference between that and using a pre-made model, so it's basically they say no pre-made models at all or make limitations. It would be more FAIR to say no pre-made models at all, but I think what would be best is a size and/or brush limit on it.

@stuff about layouts: My thoughts? No team should EVER EVER EVER start in the best base for that team. What I've thought would be interesting is humans and aliens in the best base for the opposite team.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 26, 2011, 08:56:12 pm
@stuff about layouts: My thoughts? No team should EVER EVER EVER start in the best base for that team. What I've thought would be interesting is humans and aliens in the best base for the opposite team.

Unless you want a map that doesn't emphasize building. Variation isn't a bad thing and a layout isn't made bad by failing to respect specific mantras. Layout is something you can and should be creative with and the fact that it's hard to define what makes a good layout is a good reason to have it judged in a competition.

I stand by my belief that it's a quality hard to underpin. I would argue that all the suggested aspects of 'a good layout' given so far have been good things to consider but have not been definitive. For instance, I might deliberately give one route on my map narrow corridors and clumsy terrain so that another much longer route has an advantage in certain situations (such as fleeing from the enemy) but is decidedly less useful in other situations. Not only does that necessitate interesting decisions about which route to take as the fleeing victim, but also which route you expect the fleeing enemy to take if you're the one chasing them. This is the kind of thing that decides a good layout for me; it makes games varied and keeps them enjoyable.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Meisseli on May 27, 2011, 03:57:34 pm
Be creative, we've got plenty 2 corridors atcs clones. Add lifts, add a hole in the roof so that you can jump down a level, heck, add a teleporter that teleports you into the enemy base (c) [thats actually a purdy good idea :O].
Teleporters are a very bad idea, and elevators are hard to make good.

What comes to layouts, there is mainly one bad layout that should be avoided:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18542862/images/map.jpg)
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 27, 2011, 05:08:13 pm
Be creative, we've got plenty 2 corridors atcs clones. Add lifts, add a hole in the roof so that you can jump down a level, heck, add a teleporter that teleports you into the enemy base (c) [thats actually a purdy good idea :O].
Teleporters are a very bad idea, and elevators are hard to make good.

What comes to layouts, there is mainly one bad layout that should be avoided:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18542862/images/map.jpg)
Unless there is a wall straight down the middle that forces them to go through the other area. As in, there is no way to get between bases except by going through the other area.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on May 27, 2011, 07:00:27 pm
I think when he said 'unused' he really meant unused.  ;)

Bear in mind that the area could be considered 'unused' while the bases stay at thier defaults but could prove crucial once one of the teams decides to move thier base. It would be a good idea to make the more ideal base locations harder to move into, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 27, 2011, 07:21:14 pm
But teleporters are cool :(
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CorSair on May 28, 2011, 10:21:33 pm
Wow, this topic's been lit up greatly after I checked it...

In any case, if there is need of more mappers, I would like to participate. And timetable proposed by Ingar is more than fine for me. I got lot of time after 8th July (probably.)

One question.
If someone fails to make alpha (or beta-1) on first stage of competition, can he still participate on second, or even the final stage?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on May 29, 2011, 03:53:34 am
One question.
If someone fails to make alpha (or beta-1) on first stage of competition, can he still participate on second, or even the final stage?
As I understand it, this competition is going to have a larger emphasis on gameplay than previous comps. So I think that if you can make even the most simple of poorly textured boxmaps that demonstrates some noticeable amount of potential for good gameplay in the first phase, then that map should have the blessings of all the judges. If you can't do that, though, I think that (unless the judges and other mappers agree to make an exception for you) that you shouldn't be allowed to participate. And luckily, seeing as how our mapping subcommunity is one of the nicer ones, I really don't think it'd be too hard to have an exception made.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 29, 2011, 11:32:03 am
I think the beta 1 deadline, is just to ensure everyone has a playable release out there. If you get a release out before that I doubt any of the other mappers will object if you bring out releases early.

And it'd make sense if the beta deadlines were more of a beta period. Some maps will inevitably need more than two betas to be tested, and again, noone will care if you bring out 5 betas as opposed to 2.

The only solid deadlines are beta-1 and final methinks.

also, WHARS THE OFFICAL THREAD INGAR! might as well get this party started.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CorSair on May 29, 2011, 03:25:11 pm
WHARS THE OFFICAL THREAD INGAR! might as well get this party started.

We forget something... Prize, perhaps? Not because I'm greedy. :P
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 29, 2011, 08:24:19 pm
How about admin on us1? 
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on May 29, 2011, 09:08:17 pm
How about admin on us1? 
Because the ability to map means you're inherently able to admin a server.

How about a small money prize and a shirt? Maybe talk to the devs about a spot in the rotation or in 1.2? I'd be willing to donate a few bucks to the prize pool if I get the opportunity. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Meisseli on May 29, 2011, 10:11:44 pm
a spot in the rotation
That one.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on May 29, 2011, 11:20:30 pm
Spot in rotation, maybe have it as a default map in 1.2? And make a special banner or something like the Donor or Spam Killer ones for them on the left of their posts? Dunno...
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: c4 on May 30, 2011, 04:35:20 am
Yeah what if the winning map.was included in 1.2, thus putting the winning mapper in the credits.  That would be an honor imho
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Celestial_Rage on May 30, 2011, 07:29:56 am
Also, some of the other honorable mentions can be placed in the rotation or be included as default maps as well, depending on the caliber.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on May 30, 2011, 12:11:28 pm
ive got a spare frozen synapse key if you want it for a prize...

I myself dont really need a prize, supremo kudos is good enough for me.

And being a default map in 1.2 is a bit of a pipe dream. I don't want a second rate map that was made in 2 months getting a place in 1.2, when there are plenty of great maps that are already out there, which have had half of a year spent on them.

However, having said that, if some of you manage to make a great map, the publicity of the competition will get you a great chance (probably the best chance) to have it in 1.2.

EDIT: Im not trying the pre judge how good your stuff will be, i just think it's a tad presumptuous to think that the map quality will be on par with non-competition maps. It might be, but we wont know until the maps are released.   
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: jm82792 on May 31, 2011, 05:15:13 am
I think any map that's put out has to be posted here uncompiled every two weeks.
There may be a few choice maps that are only released compiled, then they person ditches the project, and doesn't have the uncompiled version anymore.
Perhaps other members would want to polish the maps so they become official?
Finally members could do some changes to the entrant's map, and perhaps the entrant would like them to become part of it because the change was that good?
You get my jest, I'm thinking one of my points is(semi?) valid.


Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on May 31, 2011, 05:44:32 am
Thats just silly imho.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Qrntz on May 31, 2011, 12:47:28 pm
Thats just silly imho.
And a bit suspect I think (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Dfs7jqFI&t=0m39s).
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on May 31, 2011, 04:46:25 pm
No, no, he's got a good point in there somewhere. If all mappers said "alright, I give so-and-so rights to edit and redistribute my map, so long as they give me credit for it, after I'm done with it", then there's probably a much better chance at a spot in 1.2.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: David on May 31, 2011, 05:08:27 pm
If it's not under a open licence then it won't be considered for 1.2.

CC-BY-SA is best.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on May 31, 2011, 11:00:11 pm
No, no, he's got a good point in there somewhere. If all mappers said "alright, I give so-and-so rights to edit and redistribute my map, so long as they give me credit for it, after I'm done with it", then there's probably a much better chance at a spot in 1.2.
im not saying the mappers should say "NO ONE CAN TOUCH MAH MAP!111111"
Im just saying having to post an uncompiled version regularily is stupid. If someone wants the uncompiled version, they can not be lazy and just ask.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on June 01, 2011, 01:59:13 am
No, no, he's got a good point in there somewhere. If all mappers said "alright, I give so-and-so rights to edit and redistribute my map, so long as they give me credit for it, after I'm done with it", then there's probably a much better chance at a spot in 1.2.
im not saying the mappers should say "NO ONE CAN TOUCH MAH MAP!111111"
Im just saying having to post an uncompiled version regularily is stupid. If someone wants the uncompiled version, they can not be lazy and just ask.
Many maps have the .map included in them (as in, uncompiled).
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: A Spork on June 01, 2011, 03:57:57 am
That true, although the thing is that significantly ups the filesize
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on June 01, 2011, 04:43:17 pm
Bigger filesize = better map. ;D
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on June 01, 2011, 06:20:11 pm
Bigger filesize = better map. ;D

Not if I fill it with  10,000 pictures of your face.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Menace13 on June 01, 2011, 07:26:49 pm
Bigger filesize = better map. ;D

Not if I fill it with  10,000 pictures of your face.

Bigger filesize =/= better usually. You can make a map 10 times bigger than procyon. Does that make it better? NO!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on June 01, 2011, 07:48:02 pm
Bigger filesize = better map. ;D

Not if I fill it with  10,000 pictures of your face.

Bigger filesize =/= better usually. You can make a map 10 times bigger than procyon. Does that make it better? NO!

yes. it does.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Thorn on June 02, 2011, 05:49:08 pm
Bigger filesize = better map. ;D

Not if I fill it with  10,000 pictures of your face.

Bigger filesize =/= better usually. You can make a map 10 times bigger than procyon. Does that make it better? NO!

yes. it does.

Megaprocyon proves this point. Larger -> Better.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on June 03, 2011, 05:36:27 pm
I say we bring back the random dev shot thread for this competition.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Plague Bringer on June 03, 2011, 07:31:32 pm
I say we bring back the random dev shot thread for this competition.
Please!
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on June 04, 2011, 12:29:01 am
I say we make some maps for this competition.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: amz181 on June 09, 2011, 08:49:16 pm
So, what happened here? Is this dead? Is Ingar dead?
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CorSair on June 09, 2011, 09:00:17 pm
Dead motivation? :P

Someone should make compilation what's been discussed here and ideas how it would be done or something new. Maybe that should stir topic bit up.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on June 09, 2011, 09:31:03 pm
I prefer to think everyone is busy, like I am, learning all about making maps.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: CreatureofHell on June 09, 2011, 11:24:24 pm
The Tremulous Summer Olympics and this seem to want to fight for supremacy...
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on June 10, 2011, 07:29:43 pm
Guys.  I'm sorry to inform you that. Well Ingar.
He
He
He died.
He died and went to a better place.  SIGH
He went to Duke Nukum heaven.  I'm sorry to tell you this. 
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on June 13, 2011, 12:18:21 am
Well I guess since we have no date or no more talk about 2011 mapping competition then I think its OVER

Its summer and a time for mapping is perfect...   :'(
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Nux on June 13, 2011, 12:47:44 am
PFFFFFFF!

I guess I'll win then.
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on June 13, 2011, 02:53:59 am
PFFFFFFF!

I guess I'll win then.
HUH  :P  "Well Oh yea"
Nux Sux
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on June 19, 2011, 09:10:19 pm
I have a feeling that the competition will begin in July. 
But I'm not sure.   Ingar??
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Firstinaction on June 26, 2011, 03:23:52 pm
Hay look at that.  Supertanker is back.  Not only did his map spacestation 15 get me into mapping but he probably can join the mapping competition.   Just saying  ;)
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: your face on June 26, 2011, 09:38:35 pm
We're all waiting on Ingar to post the topic. :P
Title: Re: Trem mapping competition 2011
Post by: Supertanker on June 26, 2011, 10:35:54 pm
Hay look at that.  Supertanker is back.  Not only did his map spacestation 15 get me into mapping but he probably can join the mapping competition.   Just saying  ;)

Sorry, fellows. Those of you who know why I left know just how well the last mapping competition turned out for me. (Ironically, producing a map that everyone seems to like, but that I dislike.) I'm staying out. But I'll keep making inspirational maps. :P

By the way, I think that Ingar's PSU dying is probably a pretty big blow to the mapping compo. Isn't he the judge? (Sorry, haven't quite read this thread yet.)