Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Heli on April 27, 2011, 05:04:28 am
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I understand dodging to the side but could we disable or return the range of dodging backwards (or forwards). It's not really 'dodge' and humans don't naturally jump as far backwards as they do forwards. The bunny hop is quite weird.
Just a thought.
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Your arguments against dodge seem to be based on the idea of "realism," and I would like to say as far as things go, this game is not very realistic. When creating new game mechanics, balance and enjoyment I think take higher roles than how realistic looking something is in a game fighting giant aliens.
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I see what your saying. But when your human and you can't jump as far back then your done.
Think of it this way- when you see a big alien creature in front of you, you might want too jump back as far as possible. ;)
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This is why the animation needs to be turned into the backflip. 8)
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You're right, but unfortunately it's not going to change.
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(Don't put to much thought on this, I'm a largely alien player who subscribes to the creed of Humans R OP!)
I too dislike backwards dodge, and I have a suggestion for a replacement: "Drop".
It's kind of like dropping into the position of a one-handed pushup. This doesn't get you farther from the alien, but if it's a pouncing goon/jumping dretch/bouncing mara, it will let them sail harmlessly over your head. Maybe you can hold back+dodge to remain in this position if you timed it sloppily, and when you let go you pop right back up.
Functionality meets Realism.
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This doesn't get you farther from the alien, but if it's a pouncing goon/jumping dretch/bouncing mara, it will let them sail harmlessly over your head. Maybe you can hold back+dodge to remain in this position if you timed it sloppily, and when you let go you pop right back up.
Hi, it's called crouching.
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In the name of realism i propose that there be a chance of tripping over and falling flat on your back when back-peddling, obviously back-peddle speed should be a lot slower than walking, too, or maybe holding shift when back-peddling should reduce the likelihood of falling over.
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I see what your saying. But when your human and you can't jump as far back then your done.
Think of it this way- when you see a big alien creature in front of you, you might want too jump back as far as possible. ;)
If you can't track back faster than an alien and need dodge to do it, you are very very bad. I can back track goon pounces and rant charges all day. Dodge should be disabled backwards or I want to be able to dodge forwards as well.
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This doesn't get you farther from the alien, but if it's a pouncing goon/jumping dretch/bouncing mara, it will let them sail harmlessly over your head. Maybe you can hold back+dodge to remain in this position if you timed it sloppily, and when you let go you pop right back up.
Hi, it's called crouching.
Nah, crouching brings you to about half of your standing height. I mean like a belly-to-the-deck, 1/4 of standing height thing. Don't say it wouldn't be more effective.
In the name of realism i propose that there be a chance of tripping over and falling flat on your back when back-peddling, obviously back-peddle speed should be a lot slower than walking, too, or maybe holding shift when back-peddling should reduce the likelihood of falling over.
Someone isn't taking things seriously.
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In the name of realism i propose that there be a chance of tripping over and falling flat on your back when back-peddling, obviously back-peddle speed should be a lot slower than walking, too, or maybe holding shift when back-peddling should reduce the likelihood of falling over.
Someone isn't taking things seriously.
It's just as serious a suggestion as many of the complaints.
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Your arguments against dodge seem to be based on the idea of "realism," and I would like to say as far as things go, this game is not very realistic. When creating new game mechanics, balance and enjoyment I think take higher roles than how realistic looking something is in a game fighting giant aliens.
in the interest of balance i purpose that aliens get side dodging, and a FORWARD dodge, but no back. in the interest of balance, i suggest that this forward dodge has twice the range of a human back dodge, and twice the speed. this is for "small aliens" at mara it can be adjusted, then rant will have a rediculously small dodge.
kind of like how human dodge should be modified by what armor they are wearing. is is modified by armor, isnt it? if not, making it so will go a long way to balance.
or, we can do the easy thing, disable human back dodge. it is OP and unbalancing. especially when used where there is a negative elevation behind the dodging human (for instance, in the hall of ATCS, humans can dodge a mile if they back-dodge at the top of one of the ramps)
my interpretation of developer intent is that offence is to be rewarded, defence less so. dodge runs counter to this sentiment as it encourages a far more defensive style of play. so, in the name of balance, not realism, i ask that back dodge be removed.
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Your arguments against dodge seem to be based on the idea of "realism," and I would like to say as far as things go, this game is not very realistic. When creating new game mechanics, balance and enjoyment I think take higher roles than how realistic looking something is in a game fighting giant aliens.
True - I'm thinking more about balance though. Maybe have dodge backwards take up more energy? All I know is that a good human player can do 4 backward dodges and that will take out most aliens. Good thing most players don't know that though.
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All I know is that a good human player any random fuck can do 4 backward dodges and that will take out most aliens. Good thing most players don't know that though seem to have a key bound to dodge.
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All I know is that a good human player any random fuck can do 4 backward dodges and that will take out most aliens. Good thing most players don't know that though seem to have a key bound to dodge.
New sig. Thanks
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Humans run faster strafing than they do going backwards, I think dodge should work the same way. It's only logical.
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Simple solution, stop avoiding using dodge, start fucking up norf's stats with it to the point that he can see it's unbalancing the game, this applies to any change you feel is op.
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just wondering, as i find playing human distasteful, isnt it possible to use back dodge as a boost to backwards strafejumping? if this is indeed the case, would it not be true that no alien class could ever hope to reach a human who has backdodges and sucessfully strafejumped twice?
i've seen some quite high speeds on players doing the dodge from on top of ATCS hallramp, i shudder to think what would be possible with just two additional jumps.
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Simple solution, stop avoiding using dodge, start fucking up norf's stats with it to the point that he can see it's unbalancing the game, this applies to any change you feel is op.
It's practically impossible to extract any relevant dodge data from the stats. It has to be balanced based on feeling.
I think dodge is for the worse based on two reasons. First off it doesn't make a lot of sense and is what you can call 'unrealistic'. If your counter argument is that tremulous is not realistic you have missed the point. Nobody is complaining about the telenode, a device creating clones with a throughput of 6 humans per minute*. The reason why some dislike dodge, including me, is that it doesn't make sense. It looks stupid and is unrealistic when you accelerate backwards or to the side faster than you can sprint forwards. If your counter argument to this is to replace the animation with a backflip I think I just stop typing right now.
The second reason is for the game mechanic itself. When humans stick together there is almost never any need for dodge. It's mainly useful if you're out adventuring by yourself. The exception is against dretches where dodge, unfortunately, is quite useful. It's unfortunate because dretches are already horribly weak.
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We're constantly told that humans are ZOMG OP, the stats will surely bear this out, yes you wont be able to tell if it's directly related to dodge, but you'll see a sharp drop off in the aliens ability to kill these god-like humans. Then again, the other half of the time people are screaming about aliens being ZOMG OP, the main issue is that many people just aren't very good, so throw a few skilled players into a match and you get some very grumpy ragequitters whining about nolifers.
Dodge doesn't make a lot of sense graphically, that much is true.
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...the main issue is that many people just aren't very good...
Simple solution, stop avoiding using dodge, start fucking up norf's stats with it to the point that he can see it's unbalancing the game, this applies to any change you feel is op.
+1
Also it is interesting to note:
•Realistic physics and motion - no bunny hopping or quick back peddling
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Also it is interesting to note:
•Realistic physics and motion - no bunny hopping or quick back peddling
is there anything that uses q3 as a base that actually follows that?
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Also it is interesting to note:
•Realistic physics and motion - no bunny hopping or quick back peddling
is there anything that uses q3 as a base that actually follows that?
Hah, probably not, but it doesn't change the fact that they said they wouldn't. :P
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Also it is interesting to note:
•Realistic physics and motion - no bunny hopping or quick back peddling
is there anything that uses q3 as a base that actually follows that?
Hah, probably not, but it doesn't change the fact that they said they wouldn't. :P
I think though that page is referencing Trem 1.1. When 1.2 comes out, they'll probably update it to remove that line as it will include quick back peddling.
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(http://i.imgur.com/WYohK.png)
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
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If dodge is nerfed in any way I guarantee we see a severe increase in complaints by human players who use dodge in relation to getting raped in combat by pretty much every alien.
Whether or not things came about in this sequence, this is the way I see it:
1.) Bunch of aliens were given boosts on attacks/abilities that are extremely difficult to dodge using simple movements (given a decent or better alien player). Said attacks take a great deal less skill than the former primaries (chomp).
2.) The ability of humans to avoid these attacks becomes pathetically underpowered, and skilled simple movements are no longer enough. So the humans are given an ability to help them on this, AND a stamina boost to go with it. The result is that the human's way of avoiding the buffed alien attacks takes little to no skill itself, and is also abusable if combined with getting pounced.
Don't give me any of that jump bullshit, jump won't do shit for you against a goon that's legitimately accurate with pounce (and this isn't saying much). Maybe against the ones who take the pounce's OP for granted and spam.
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
except, you know, you have to stop shooting the alien.
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
except, you know, you have to stop shooting the alien.
Oh, do I have to make a recording of some sort or should you try for yourself how much that delay is, making you unable to score perhaps even two to three rifle shots!
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
There is a delay that depends on the player. Even the better players will lose firepower doing that even if they are using a shotgun or mass driver. You must also take into account that you need to find your target again after making the sidedodge. Luci is the only exception when timed right.
I don't like dodge because of it's effect on dretch but it's not all bad. Dodge is important when using painsaw or flamer. It really helps that you can sidedodge closer to an alien.
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
except, you know, you have to stop shooting the alien.
I think this is a good point. I'm not for disabling dodge at all - I think it is important in balance. I just think backward dodge is sort of ridiculous and inbalance especially vs s1 aliens. Even at s3 though, it is sort of ridiculous when you have a charging rant that can't hit a bsuit because it is bunny hopping backwards. In 4 backwards hops, a bsuit with a good weapon can take out a charging rant. Some options I've been thinking about:
1) Make dodge cost twice as much energy as it does now
2) Make dodge cost twice as much energy for backward leaps (2 backward hops max would at least be somewhat more reasonable)
3) Disable backward leaps
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I'd be all for increasing energy costs for dodge. Its ridiculous that dodge costs the same as jump, but you get farther movement.
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Keep full dodge for naked humans.
-25% move distance for light armor.
-25% move distance for jetpack/battpack.
Either -75% move distance for battlesuits, or no dodge at all. Battlesuits can't even crouch.
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Keep full dodge for naked humans.
-25% move distance for light armor.
-25% move distance for jetpack/battpack.
Either -75% move distance for battlesuits, or no dodge at all. Battlesuits can't even crouch.
This is even better. Thank you kharnov. <3
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
except, you know, you have to stop shooting the alien.
Oh, do I have to make a recording of some sort or should you try for yourself how much that delay is, making you unable to score perhaps even two to three rifle shots!
two or three rifle shots can mean life or death. but it seems armor does not moify dodge, based on recent comments. I would be satisfied with that change. after all, rants can't jump for shit, why should bsuits?
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Disabling backward dodge is useless since there's practically no additional delay in turning your mouse 90° thus making a sideward dodge.
except, you know, you have to stop shooting the alien.
Oh, do I have to make a recording of some sort or should you try for yourself how much that delay is, making you unable to score perhaps even two to three rifle shots!
I was gonna say, just cus you're a good player Meisseli doesn't mean that this doesn't affect beginner/average players. We're not all hardcore.
Anyway, "smaller" things like map awareness and team tactics are much more effective at keeping you alive than dodge.
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Keep full dodge for naked humans.
-25% move distance for light armor.
-25% move distance for jetpack/battpack.
Either -75% move distance for battlesuits, or no dodge at all. Battlesuits can't even crouch.
I like this.
Another idea - instead of changing move distance, perhaps it costs that much more energy to dodge?
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Didn't you just say that in an earlier post? But, yes I think both of these could be implemented. A slight energy cost increase and a movement hindrance for armor.
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If this game was realistic at all it wouldn't be fun.
Running with chainguns? Perfect precise movement?
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If this game was realistic at all it wouldn't be fun.
Running with chainguns? Perfect precise movement?
Refer to the earlier post by Cadymum.
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If this game was realistic at all it wouldn't be fun.
Running with chainguns? Perfect precise movement?
What does that have to do with balancing?
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I was gonna say, just cus you're a good player Meisseli doesn't mean that this doesn't affect beginner/average players. We're not all hardcore.
Anyway, "smaller" things like map awareness and team tactics are much more effective at keeping you alive than dodge.
The best players have the most valuable opinions on shit like this. When things are being fixed up or created that are possibly in the area of impact from skill, they should be made from the point of "what could someone really skilled do with this." Not "well someone bad can't abuse this so it's ok."
Unskilled players' opinions are most valuable in making the game more accessible but that's about it. My opinion obviously, just so I don't come across as a game elitist.
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I was gonna say, just cus you're a good player Meisseli doesn't mean that this doesn't affect beginner/average players. We're not all hardcore.
Anyway, "smaller" things like map awareness and team tactics are much more effective at keeping you alive than dodge.
The best players have the most valuable opinions on shit like this. When things are being fixed up or created that are possibly in the area of impact from skill, they should be made from the point of "what could someone really skilled do with this." Not "well someone bad can't abuse this so it's ok."
Unskilled players' opinions are most valuable in making the game more accessible but that's about it. My opinion obviously, just so I don't come across as a game elitist.
I agree, which is probably why no one likes me on here.
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> I agree, which is probably why no one likes me on here.
No one (I think) dislikes you because you suck at trem. It has more to do with your personality and useless (but often humorous) posts.
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> I agree, which is probably why no one likes me on here.
No one (I think) dislikes you because you suck at trem. It has more to do with your personality and useless (but often humorous) posts.
No, its the fact that I have an opinion and this is teh trem forumz. Is it funny because I try to be funny or is it because I'm making a fool of myself. (Pick the second)
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The latter.
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Sorry I tend to skim stuff.
Anyways GREAT Idea, make a ratio as was mentioned that uses stamina depending on what's held and such.
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> I agree, which is probably why no one likes me on here.
No one (I think) dislikes you because you suck at trem. It has more to do with your personality and useless (but often humorous) posts.
No, its the fact that I have an opinion and this is teh trem forumz. Is it funny because I try to be funny or is it because I'm making a fool of myself. (Pick the second)
No, it really is mostly to do with the fact that you're an argumentative, incoherent, deeply arrogant and inexplicably elitist retard.
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> I agree, which is probably why no one likes me on here.
No one (I think) dislikes you because you suck at trem. It has more to do with your personality and useless (but often humorous) posts.
No, its the fact that I have an opinion and this is teh trem forumz. Is it funny because I try to be funny or is it because I'm making a fool of myself. (Pick the second)
No, it really is mostly to do with the fact that you're an argumentative, incoherent, deeply arrogant and inexplicably elitist retard.
I don't know how I'm elitist or arrogant. I know I tend to be incoherent and I am slightly retarded. But ok.
And I'm sorry if I come across that way. I am very opinionated and I tend to have a "reason" for it, even if I can't explain it properly.
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Aaaanyway, just so we don't turn this into a flame war, I think we have said what needs to be said about dodge balancing on this thread. It sounds like there is a lot of support for some sort of modifications to prevent bunny hopping - either in the form of more energy required to dodge or reducing the range of dodge.
Now that we've had our say, we can leave it up to Norf and his statistics to decide what is balanced.
Norf - whether you decide to go with any ideas here or not, thank you for your consideration.
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The best players have the most valuable opinions on shit like this. When things are being fixed up or created that are possibly in the area of impact from skill, they should be made from the point of "what could someone really skilled do with this." Not "well someone bad can't abuse this so it's ok."
Unskilled players' opinions are most valuable in making the game more accessible but that's about it. My opinion obviously, just so I don't come across as a game elitist.
Okaaaay, but I was under the impression that balancing was done for the lowest common denominator. Otherwise scrims/clan matches wouldn't be as broken as they are.
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Aaaanyway, just so we don't turn this into a flame war, I think we have said what needs to be said about dodge balancing on this thread. It sounds like there is a lot of support for some sort of modifications to prevent bunny hopping - either in the form of more energy required to dodge or reducing the range of dodge.
Now that we've had our say, we can leave it up to Norf and his statistics to decide what is balanced.
Norf - whether you decide to go with any ideas here or not, thank you for your consideration.
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Otherwise scrims/clan matches wouldn't be as broken as they are.
Just out of interest, how broken are they?
Now that we've had our say, we can must leave it up to Norf and his statistics to decide what is balanced.
Remember, if you just completely refuse to utilise dodge then your stats wont help to demonstrate how OP you feel it is, bind dodge today and show everyone just how god-like it can make you!
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Bind dodge is an unused mouse button.
Works great.
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Bind dodge is an unused mouse button.
Works great.
Yes rebuttal is yes.
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Whoops crap typing....
Yeah bind dodge to unused mouse button, then it's always used.
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Keep full dodge for naked humans.
-25% move distance for light armor.
-25% move distance for jetpack/battpack.
Either -75% move distance for battlesuits, or no dodge at all. Battlesuits can't even crouch.
This is a great idea
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Whoops crap typing....
Yeah bind dodge to unused mouse button, then it's always used.
I can't bind it to an unused mouse button though. I have all useful buttons bound and I won't go out of my way to piss people off. I have "messagemode" for that.
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Dodge isn't a problem at all except for dretches. All other aliens have enough mobility to reach dodging humans very well. It is though one of the main reasons the dretch currently sucks so much: it would be much better to reverse what was suggested. It doesn't make much sense nor is it good nerfing humans as they progress in stages, you're meant to become more powerful and get bonuses from advancing stages. For example having no dodge for nakeds, and making light armour/battlesuit give you the ability would work.
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Dodge isn't a problem at all except for dretches. All other aliens have enough mobility to reach dodging humans very well. It is though one of the main reasons the dretch currently sucks so much: it would be much better to reverse what was suggested. It doesn't make much sense nor is it good nerfing humans as they progress in stages, you're meant to become more powerful and get bonuses from advancing stages. For example having no dodge for nakeds, and making light armour/battlesuit give you the ability would work.
Love this except for bsuit. Maybe another ability would make more sense. I mean, rants don't earn amazing hops, they earn charge. Why should a heavy ass bsuit have more hops than a rant?
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Dodge isn't a problem at all except for dretches. All other aliens have enough mobility to reach dodging humans very well. It is though one of the main reasons the dretch currently sucks so much: it would be much better to reverse what was suggested. It doesn't make much sense nor is it good nerfing humans as they progress in stages, you're meant to become more powerful and get bonuses from advancing stages. For example having no dodge for nakeds, and making light armour/battlesuit give you the ability would work.
Love this except for bsuit.
bsuit's the only thing it makes sense with, really. Yes it makes sense for upgrades to improve a player's abilities, but logically(and logic and realism are important, right?) i can see no reason why Light armour and a helmet would allow a human to move faster.
Why should a heavy ass bsuit have more hops than a rant?
Because it's a high-tech self-powered exoskeletal battlesuit...
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Why should a heavy ass bsuit have more hops than a rant?
Because it's a high-tech self-powered exoskeletal battlesuit...
Take Crysis for example...
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Why should a heavy ass bsuit have more hops than a rant?
Because it's a high-tech self-powered exoskeletal battlesuit...
[/quote]
I guess that makes sense.
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Ironman.... :D
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so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up? what about aliens? we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.
anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk. mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents. rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it. tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.
so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn. if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.
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so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up? what about aliens? we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.
So, marauders and goons are less agile than dretches and rant charge isn't particularly fast or a replacement for jump in many situations?
anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk. mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents. rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it. tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.
so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn. if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.
(http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_sig.php?player_id=15074&style=1)
Well, you clearly speak from lots of recent experience... Frankly, you don't sound like you've got a bloody clue, just stop making noises for a while and play against some decent aliens, or, if you're truly the most amazingly skilled dodger, then go and make your stats reflect that fact.
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so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up? what about aliens? we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.
Your logic is fallacious. Aliens do not lose mobility every time they evolve. Goons are the most agile creature in this game, second comes marauder. It's about the unique, individual classes, nothing to do with evolving or staging up.
anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk. mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents. rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it. tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.
Fitting in vents has nothing to do with human dodge. Tyrants win humans in duels always if they aren't particularly retarded or the human jettarding somewhere high upon the sky.
so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn. if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.
The poor logic in here makes this statement obsolete. Even worse than the earlier mobility thing is the argument by which "aliens have X, therefore humans should have X". That is repeated in countless topics where the poster actually has nothing to justify his words, therefore going by this. Aliens and humans are two unique teams - deal with it.
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so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up? what about aliens? we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.
Your logic is fallacious. Aliens do not lose mobility every time they evolve. Goons are the most agile creature in this game, second comes marauder. It's about the unique, individual classes, nothing to do with evolving or staging up.
anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk. mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents. rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it. tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.
Fitting in vents has nothing to do with human dodge. Tyrants win humans in duels always if they aren't particularly retarded or the human jettarding somewhere high upon the sky.
so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn. if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.
The poor logic in here makes this statement obsolete. Even worse than the earlier mobility thing is the argument by which "aliens have X, therefore humans should have X". That is repeated in countless topics where the poster actually has nothing to justify his words, therefore going by this. Aliens and humans are two unique teams - deal with it.
goons are most agile? I disssagree. neither are goons the most moble. goons are perhaps the fastest, but that in no way makes them the top class in agility or mobility. that's where the vents come in: mobility. I note that human movement spees are related to the armor worn. why should dodge not also follow this convention? you claim there is fault in my logic, yet you misinterpreted my point. it is not "humans have x, aliens need an analog." my point was "this mechanic is unreal and unfun. it causes the factions to behave in a way that is contrary to how they are described."
personally, I dislike how many movement/manuverability options are available to humans. it would be akin to aing a true range attack to every alien class, or giving humans a poison analog. humans have firepower, the do not need a dodge. conversly, aliens need more manuvering options.
unless, of course, I have the intentions of the racial descriptions wrong. if the alien description needs to read "u r jus a trgt 4 1337 humarns", please change it to read so and stop confusing me.
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goons are most agile? I disssagree. neither are goons the most moble. goons are perhaps the fastest, but that in no way makes them the top class in agility or mobility. that's where the vents come in: mobility. I note that human movement spees are related to the armor worn. why should dodge not also follow this convention?
Battlesuits cannot fit in vents, isn't this by your logic making it already a lot less mobile? Human movement speed is not related to what armour you wear unlike you say.
personally, I dislike how many movement/manuverability options are available to humans. it would be akin to aing a true range attack to every alien class, or giving humans a poison analog. humans have firepower, the do not need a dodge. conversly, aliens need more manuvering options.
Dodge is lightyears away from making humans akin to aliens. Just think of a marauder or a dragoon pouncing or jumping a whole map through ten seconds. A human will take a minute to do the same. The difference between mobility is huge.
unless, of course, I have the intentions of the racial descriptions wrong. if the alien description needs to read "u r jus a trgt 4 1337 humarns", please change it to read so and stop confusing me.
I'm sorry, but dodge doesn't do this. You're truly exaggerating a little too much here.
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armor does not affect movement speed? why not? it really should, as well as modify jump and dodge distance and stamina cost. as far as "taking a minute to cover the same distance" that is highly dependant on the map. humans can cross atcs almost as fast as any alien, for example. you don't have to be particularly skilled or an old hand to understand the descriptions don't match the actuality. I simply suggest the reality be brought back in line with the description, or vice-versa.
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I'm not even going to go into details about this idea of armor changing human mobility. Unless you want the game to get fucked over by a massive movement overhaul for humans, which would require serious changes to pretty much everything for the aliens to prevent severe OPness, shut the fuck up and leave it alone. You're looking to completely change some key fundamentals in Trem, as if many of them haven't already been ruined as it is.
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armor does not affect movement speed? why not? it really should, as well as modify jump and dodge distance and stamina cost. as far as "taking a minute to cover the same distance" that is highly dependant on the map. humans can cross atcs almost as fast as any alien, for example. you don't have to be particularly skilled or an old hand to understand the descriptions don't match the actuality. I simply suggest the reality be brought back in line with the description, or vice-versa.
Changing the game to be less about the awesome fast gameplay and intense reactions gets a negative vote from here. You're looking for other games for that. Playing Granny Tremulous isn't what would be fun, really.
Most maps in Tremulous are significantly larger (and better) than ATCS. It isn't to be used as a reference for all Tremulous maps.
So, as I found nothing in the team descriptions being false, could you back-up your claims by pointing actual things you found to be so?
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dracone: the point is that dodge has done this already. serious changes are needed to accomiate dodge. also, as my suggestions and observations do nothing to change the game, your bit about shutting the fuck up and leaving it alone was both unessicary and unwelcome. discussion hurts nothing, unless you perhaps fear for the modification of things you consider rote?
meissili: i'd say it would encourage diversity. just because you CAN armor up does not mean you should. much like the descions you make when playing alien. just because you can evolve does not mean it is always a good idea to do so. human base speed can be adjusted so that armor slowdown isn't "granny trem". plenty of other team based Fps games include this mechanic and also manage to keep a very fast pace. trem should be no different.
as for descriptions, my computer is out at the moment, so I don't have them right out in front of me. I do remember two points of contention I had were claiming that aliens built bases faster, and had more mobility. overall, I fell that build speeds are roughly equal, and aliens have an edge on mobility so long as both teams are restricted to s1.
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Oh yes, as much as I would enjoy seeing naked lucis swarm the game, no thanks. There are very few games in that armor reduces movement speed, and those games aren't comparable with Tremulous.
You could seriously stop the exaggeration. Dodge has its flaws, but you're truly blind to imply it has changed the game so much that every alien is helpless against it. I, and everyone excluding you it seems manage to kill humans still just fine.
Ah, since we already know that mobility translates, as you said, to: "can fit vents", I guess your statement is true.
The Aliens' strenghts are in movement and the ability to quickly construct new bases quickly [sic]. They possess a range of abilities including basic melee attacks, movement-crippling poisons and more.
The humans are the masters of technology [sic]. Although their bases take long to construct, their automated defense ensure they stay built. A wide range of upgrades and weapons are available to the humans, each contributing to eradicate the alien threat.
Those are the descriptions. Aside from the grammatical mistakes, aliens are good in movement, and they possess abilities. The building part indeed has changed, it probably is slow since aliens need to build 1,5x build points worth more stuff.
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dracone: the point is that dodge has done this already. serious changes are needed to accomiate dodge. also, as my suggestions and observations do nothing to change the game, your bit about shutting the fuck up and leaving it alone was both unessicary and unwelcome. discussion hurts nothing, unless you perhaps fear for the modification of things you consider rote?
No, you don't know how to play this game well enough (evident from your play and your opinions) and have contributed no valuable information to this whatsoever outside of "this would create variation."
Your logic is useless. You suggest a SEPARATE influence on mobility to balance dodge, to counter its status of being a feature that doesn't require skill to use yet it is nearly gamebreaking in multiple areas, and when abused enough in the right places (there are many of these), is theoretically completely gamebreaking.
Your suggestion doesn't work because dodge itself was put in place to buff the humans so they could avoid alien attacks more easily. I agree with this, despite the lack of skill it takes to use it, given that tyrant charge and goon pounce, both taking very little skill themselves, were buffed, but had neither of these been buffed I would call for dodge to be removed completely in a heartbeat. If dodge hadn't been implemented, these attacks would be hopelessly unavoidable. However, dodge is overpowered against basically every other alien or alien attack/ability, save for maybe zap and gas (lol who cares).
To suggest that we need yet another FEATURE in the game to nerf something else that was put in placed as a buff is simply illogical. You would be going down the same exact path as those that had been taken to form this version. Said routes are those that STILL pull in a lot of criticism from many players now. To put your logic into a simple analogy, rather than finding a better way to balance the scale, you just want to keep adding weights. This is perfectionist logic in its worst form, and only leads to an unending staircase of issues through making the game more complex than it needs to be.
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dracone: the point is that dodge has done this already. serious changes are needed to accomiate dodge. also, as my suggestions and observations do nothing to change the game, your bit about shutting the fuck up and leaving it alone was both unessicary and unwelcome. discussion hurts nothing, unless you perhaps fear for the modification of things you consider rote?
To suggest that we need yet another FEATURE in the game to nerf something else that was put in placed as a buff is simply illogical. You would be going down the same exact path as those that had been taken to form this version. Said routes are those that STILL pull in a lot of criticism from many players now. To put your logic into a simple analogy, rather than finding a better way to balance the scale, you just want to keep adding weights. This is perfectionist logic in its worst form, and only leads to an unending staircase of issues through making the game more complex than it needs to be.
Mega offtopic - This reminds me of the recent episode of Big Bang Theory, where Sheldon, "the genius," creates two new pieces to chess that balance each other out, but are completely redundant. At the end of the show, there are three people playing chess with a myriad of chess pieces and one guy is so confused, he says "Fuck this," flips the chess boards and leaves.
Not entirely off topic - That off topic thing up there ^^^^^ is what could happen to new and even old players. I would ADVISE AGAINST IT. Thanks.
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I think my points have been seriously missed. I don't want to keep adding shit to balance dodge, I woul be more than satisfied with the subject of this topic- disabling back dodge.
mobility =/= fitting in vents, but fitting in vents is a component of mobility. is this perhaps more clear? I would assume that you guys were smart enough to understand the concept of mobility, but you know what they say about assumptions.
and a final bit about movement speeds- there are more than a few games that use the mechanic. some are a goo deal like trem. I don't know, would you count tribes2 as too dissimilar for comparison? how about avp and avp2? those seem close enough, and they both include "armor slowdown" to great effect. both are fairly fast paced.
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Poor comparison.
I don't think you will understand the severity of such changes until you understand what it really means to be good at dodging in this game. Despite the fact that you are not referring to dodging alien attacks as the only thing within your interest for things impacted, it is far and above the absolute most important part of human movement.
Now to be completely honest, I've thought about the whole dilemma of human dodging being pretty easy to abuse. To disable may be too extreme. If measures are taken to balance this sort of thing out, they must always be subtle. I would suggest that the human backward movement speed be reduced very slightly first.
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Poor comparison.
I don't think you will understand the severity of such changes until you understand what it really means to be good at dodging in this game. Despite the fact that you are not referring to dodging alien attacks as the only thing within your interest for things impacted, it is far and above the absolute most important part of human movement.
Now to be completely honest, I've thought about the whole dilemma of human dodging being pretty easy to abuse. To disable may be too extreme. If measures are taken to balance this sort of thing out, they must always be subtle. I would suggest that the human backward movement speed be reduced very slightly first.
See the quotes below. You must have missed them.
Keep full dodge for naked humans.
-25% move distance for light armor.
-25% move distance for jetpack/battpack.
Either -75% move distance for battlesuits, or no dodge at all. Battlesuits can't even crouch.
I think this is a good point. I'm not for disabling dodge at all - I think it is important in balance. I just think backward dodge is sort of ridiculous and inbalance especially vs s1 aliens. Even at s3 though, it is sort of ridiculous when you have a charging rant that can't hit a bsuit because it is bunny hopping backwards. In 4 backwards hops, a bsuit with a good weapon can take out a charging rant. Some options I've been thinking about:
1) Make dodge cost twice as much energy as it does now
2) Make dodge cost twice as much energy for backward leaps (2 backward hops max would at least be somewhat more reasonable)
3) Disable backward leaps
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I don't see how those would suggest that I missed anything at all. I was giving my input on what should change if human movement is going to undergo reform. If you're talking about the upper two lines of what I said, those were completely directed towards RAKninja.
I suppose I maybe could have clarified that "...dodging being pretty easy to abuse. To disable may be too extreme" was in reference to backwards dodging. But it doesn't matter. As I said, things should be done subtly. To do all the numbers kharnov suggested would likely create a mess; also, if you diminish battlesuit mobility in any considerable way (75% is well beyond this), I guarantee they start getting annihilated. Heli's approach is also too direct, though he's on an alright track.
The problem with the majority of these suggestions, and also reason for my own suggestion, is: How do you know that the dodge is the main issue, and that it's not the ability of the humans to run backwards at just about (slightly under) the same rate as most of the aliens, COMBINED with the dodge? i.e. Human dodges backwards and is able to continue at a pretty annoying rate running backwards.
There are a lot more other options. You could also suggest that, after dodging backwards, a human player should be slowed for just a little bit before being able to accelerate to regular speed, in a similar fashion to the granger spit or basi gas.
Of course, just altering anything directly related to BACKWARDS dodging gets shredded when you talk of the better players. I know for damn sure that if I couldn't dodge backwards, I'd rape pretty much just as easily using the sideways dodge. This was mentioned by Meisseli and is a valid point, regardless of all the less skilled players who cry, "But I wouldn't be able to do that!!"
Another consideration is having a longer delay between dodges. There are tons of possibilities, I could go on for a while.
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Well, you could just increase goon speed! AFAIK, killing humans with anything other than dretch or goon is rather easy. IF you are skilled at that alien. A skilled goon, however (remember AFAIK), still has trouble taking out a human spamming backwards dodge.
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As per before, if something were to be done, it is notably the best option to apply changes to dodge as a whole. The easiest and simplest way would be a slight distance decrease - yes, sideways too. Perhaps it would be in order. I'm not totally against dodge or think it is particularly too good against any of the alien classes though. Dretch is on the verge of it though, it suffers the most being both weak and the starting class. Tyrant seems to have enough of an easy time in killing everything with the current dodge too. Other classes have enough mobility to overcome dodge.
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As per before, if something were to be done, it is notably the best option to apply changes to dodge as a whole. The easiest and simplest way would be a slight distance decrease - yes, sideways too. Perhaps it would be in order. I'm not totally against dodge or think it is particularly too good against any of the alien classes though. Dretch is on the verge of it though, it suffers the most being both weak and the starting class. Tyrant seems to have enough of an easy time in killing everything with the current dodge too. Other classes have enough mobility to overcome dodge.
The more I think about this, the more I agree it is unbalanced vs dretch but since most humans don't bind dodge, it isn't yet an issue. In terms of whether dodge as a whole would cost more energy or be less distance, I'm actually in favor of a bit of both. Perhaps a little less distance and a little more energy. Another idea would be a cool down period after one dodge to prevent bunny hopping.
I'm curious to hear what Norf thinks.
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The more I think about this, the more I agree it is unbalanced vs dretch but since most humans don't bind dodge, it isn't yet an issue. In terms of whether dodge as a whole would cost more energy or be less distance, I'm actually in favor of a bit of both. Perhaps a little less distance and a little more energy. Another idea would be a cool down period after one dodge to prevent bunny hopping.
I'm curious to hear what Norf thinks.
What. Are. You. Talking. About....... Almost every human I go up against as a dretch, or any alien for that matter, uses backwards dodge and back peddles up to his little butt buddy the turret.
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Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.
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Dodge back-jumb back-Dodge back-jumb back and you can ran away from a running drecth, completing the reload
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how about removing sprinting backwards and leaving dodge alone?
IMO Dodge is fine with everything but dretch, but i think that issue lies with the dretch more then with dodge.
I find myself using dodge less and less as it seems more and more people are getting more used to dodge and compensating for it, forgetting that dancing is still quite effective. But that is not to say i haven't reached a balanced between dodge and dancing, i feel that most of these "balances" people want are no more then fine tunes on balanced things instead of balancing the UNbalanced things.
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Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.
Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.
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Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.
Interesting. I was unaware you could do 90* turns with scripts.
Presumably this means you can currently do a forward dodge bind too?
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Interesting. I was unaware you could do 90* turns with scripts.
90*? 90°, surely…?
(Compose 'o' 'o', usually)
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Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.
Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.
I want to see you do it.
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Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.
Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.
I want to see you do it.
Do it yourself:
Temporarily removed on request.
Unfortunately, due to the way dodge works, the cancel movement bit is necessary, this would therefore work best as a double tap bind.
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I want to see you do it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18542862/demos/scriptjump.dm_70
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Thank you. ^.^ I just wanted to know that its possible. I don't need the code, because I don't use dodge anyway.