Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: FreaK on August 11, 2011, 05:58:41 am
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Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
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Aliens won probably more than 15 games in a row by just marazapping. Ryanw4390 and some other knowledgeable players of the game built a good spread out human base many games in a row, it still got buhraped by marauders. gg zap
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I was there for most of the games, usually on human team trying to come up with bases to prevent mara zapping. No matter how spread out the base was, mara zap would get the best of it. At some points, the bases would just be destroyed by simple S1 goon rushes since they were so spread out in an attempt to prevent the upcoming mara zap. It would be great to see something done about this as soon as possible, but I understand in the development team is busy.
What I hope doesn't happen is the waiting game, the waiting game to see if mara zap is truly overpowered by the analysis of statistics over a prolonged period. I hope the testimonials of players, the upcoming screen shots and videos, and the statistics from this evenings' games help show that something needs to be done immediately.
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It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
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It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
I think the quicker a mistake in one of the updates is found the better.
I was also in quite a few of those games where mara zap killed bases in a single rush and ended it in less than a minute also after the update pk and >< scrimmed and because of mara zap aliens won every round and ended in a tie. I really can't see mara zap being balanced at this point and think it definitely needs nerfed...
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I didn't play as many as ryan and co, but i definitely agree, Zap seems way buffed, and it was borderline OP to start with.
Also, with the change to calculate the range from cubic to spherical, is it gaining range on the sides or loosing it at the corners?
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Probably both, although if the number used is the same, it should lose area overall.
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Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
<@Lakitu7> Norfenstein: I'm looking at this zap-bugs bug. Among other smaller things it fixes a bug where two maras could not zap the same target at once (https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4999).
<Undeference> might make marauder rushes that much more effective?
<@Lakitu7> yes it might. that's why I'm bringing it up to him
<@Lakitu7> but it's probably something we thought/assumed always worked
<@Norfenstein> in general, things working the way everyone thinks they already work always will take precedence over short-term balance
<@Norfenstein> so yea, fix plz
<@Lakitu7> okay
<@Lakitu7> fwiw this works out to the fourth bugfix that is slightly in aliens' favor
<CapnWhales> Someone who has any say in balance really needs to come watch what that new mara zap patch did to the balance of this game. :l
<Undeference> it will be seen
<Undeference> probably not enough data to say anything about it yet even
<Undeference> if i'm reading this right, there have only been 57 recorded games since the change was made
Yea they knew it would tip balance in aliens favor to which extent still remains to be seen. It was a bug that after being fixed made zap more effective, they know about it and will figure something out.
It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
What he said^^
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Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
might have gone better if you guys didnt have players run around trying to be billy badass with a blaster, and spinning in circles with the flamer. your team tends to lose when you have more than one player fucking off in such a manner.
in addition aliens are now landing a lot of hits that they should have been getting but have not due to glitches. this prolly results in aliens staging up a bit faster.
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I have watched few matches, and have been mostly spectating and watching human bases, and also recorded most of them. If you folks want, I can provide few demos. But I still think that I need better demos than current ones. Reason, no pro activity going. :P
My personal opinion of updated zap? I think people exaggerate the power of zap, probably. Maybe lower damage done by zap, if I see it's too powerful.
It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
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with the change to calculate the range from cubic to spherical, is it gaining range on the sides or loosing it at the corners?
<Norfenstein> can you explain how LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE of 200 gets a box 230x230x230?
<DevHC> the mins and maxs is (obscurely) set to (LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3)), which yields a box size of (2*LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), 2*LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), 2*LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3)), which is about 230x230x230
<Norfenstein> that's that VectorScale/Add/Subtract business in G_FindNewZapTarget?
<DevHC> yes
<Norfenstein> well anyway, the radius should be LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE
<DevHC> roger
so the zap range has strictly increased, as ordered by norfie
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For those of you quoting otic you might need a new sarcasm detector bros. Aliens are winning almost every game if they have 2 maybe 3 marauders rushing. I don't see why you feel the need to wait longer if a large portion of the community is complaining that this in fact overpowered. The balance of the game is already favored towards aliens so how can the devs not see that by buffing or "fixing a bug" that would make marauder rushes "that much more effective", AND increasing the zap range would be a terrible idea.
I have watched few matches, and have been mostly spectating and watching human bases, and also recorded most of them. If you folks want, I can provide few demos. But I still think that I need better demos than current ones. Reason, no pro activity going. :P
My personal opinion of updated zap? I think people exaggerate the power of zap, probably. Maybe lower damage done by zap, if I see it's too powerful.
It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
Seeing a few matches is hardly enough to give a valid opinion on the balance of something. Many of the people complaining and wanting it to be nerfed played dozens of games last night and experienced the overpowered bullshit that is marauder zap.
Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
might have gone better if you guys didnt have players run around trying to be billy badass with a blaster, and spinning in circles with the flamer. your team tends to lose when you have more than one player fucking off in such a manner.
in addition aliens are now landing a lot of hits that they should have been getting but have not due to glitches. this prolly results in aliens staging up a bit faster.
Don't recall you being there Mr. Decepitcon... for a series of games it was most of Xenocide, and I believe Tremulant (Hmmm?) on the human team. Even with "billy the blasters" that team with those skilled players is enough to win almost any public game, but yet every game they lost.
The aliens reaching s2 faster plays almost no part in the ability to own bases with zap other than aliens might get it a couple minutes sooner? Humans had Stage 2 before aliens on many of these games, but when aliens got a few Advanced Marauders it was game over.
When aliens are constantly winning scrims 4-0 there's obviously something wrong with the balance of the game. I'd be surprised if this doesn't get nerfed sometime soon.
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or, maybe, improve the turret range(to compensate turrets stand ups time), i like the zap, its cool, and balanced vs humans(not vs buidables).
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For once Vape is right and not being a troll. What is this world coming to?
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or, maybe, improve the turret range(to compensate turrets stand ups time), i like the zap, its cool, and balanced vs humans(not vs buidables).
It's main purpose is for buildables, not humans. So you just admitted that it's unbalanced. :-*
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Don't recall you being there Mr. Decepitcon... .
that's because i rarely play under my own name. nice to see YOU'VE been playing under a variation of my name. imitation is flattery and all that.
easier to not have to deal with folks wanting to carry on forum shit ingame.
i was there from game 13066 to game 13071. would have stayed longer but i dont have uncreation downloaded, and i didnt want to download it.
it hasent been long enough. if mara zap is nerfed, i expect the flamer to be similarly nerfed. fair's fair, after all.
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Weakening mara zap damage would have much heavier impact of single mara efficiency than few maras zap efficiency. In fact that would make single mara utterly useless while not fixing mass rush OPness. So I guess it's not the way (taking in mind that single mara rushes are not capable of winning games anyway).
I also have yet to see said OPness (yet I don't think it's overreacted basing on explanation of the recent changes).
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Easiest fix? Lower the radius of the sphere. Instead of 200 or whatever, try 100. Or something. Lower the radius somehow so it isn't as cheap. Have the volume of the sphere be the same as the volume of the old cube, perhaps?
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In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.
It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
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In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.
It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
tl;dr for you guys?
Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
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Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does. Let the games play out as they normally do over a couple of months and then the developers will have enough balance information to introduce other changes.
Personally, I'd suggest making turrets a little more responsive to deal with rapidly jumping maras. Not more damage, but perhaps a faster turn rate?
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Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does. Let the games play out as they normally do over a couple of months and then the developers will have enough balance information to introduce other changes.
Personally, I'd suggest making turrets a little more responsive to deal with rapidly jumping maras. Not more damage, but perhaps a faster turn rate?
I'd rather just bring back 1.1 turrets. Or make it faster charge rate, AND then have the dcc make the rets 1.1 rets.
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I'd rather just bring back 1.1 turrets. Or make it faster charge rate, AND then have the dcc make the rets 1.1 rets.
Then we're back to square 1 when it comes to the old style of camping for a half hour during scrims. No.
Defenses should only receive minor bonuses, like a slightly better turn rate, maybe even only on the vertical axis. Any other human bonuses should be applied to weapons or to the humans themselves.
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In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.
It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference? The problem with you Developers is you rely too much on "sufficient data" rather than playing the game for yourself and trusting members of the community that have been around for several years and stayed loyal to this game even though you developers continue to toss our opinions and ideas on how to make this game more enjoyable and balanced to the side and go with whatever you want. It's amazing how people wonder what happened to this game, where'd all the players go? Where'd the clan scene go? Just take one look at the forums and posts made my developers and it's not hard to figure out why this game is dying. People will back you up with the excuse "They're doing it for free, make your own game if you don't like this one." and that's the kind of attitude and logic that made players leave this once good and enjoyable game. You also don't have to be doing this for shits and giggles. I look on this website, and see no advertisements. To my knowledge advertising a bit would be an easy to make money. (Look at UrbanTerror's website, a game that is also broken, but the developers actually keep us updated and do work)
The community in this game has been getting ignored for years now, and it's amazing how you developers even have a loyal community that still plays this game. The testimonies of several skilled and respected players have been saying that zap is a bit overpowered for awhile now, and you go and buff it to the point where aliens are winning 62.7% of the games,and you're not fixing it because there isn't sufficient amount of data to back up these accusations? One team is winning nearly 63% of games because of something that is overpowered, players are complaining, scrims are resulting in ties because both teams are winning aliens, do you need more data from a game in which you yourself rarely play? Your ego, flawed logic, and reasoning has made this game what it is today (not a compliment)
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When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference?
He plays every now and then under an alias, if that counts?
/shrug
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I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.
However, with the current players, even getting 3 players to work together can be a challenge and most of the day, players just run around killing without attempting to make organized base rushes.
In a competitive scrim environment, this is not the case since teamwork is essential and the mara zap reigns supreme because maras are fairly cheap and easy to dodge with. That makes taking out human bases trivial.
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tl;dr for you guys?
Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
that didnt work with the flamer.
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I'm not sure what the goal is here in terms of balancing the game, but I was always under the assumption the first priority was balance in competitive games. Right now, whether we're talking about a simple pick up game or a full blown clan match, mara zap is EXTREMELY over powered. Even in uncoordinated public games, the 16 game winning streak by aliens showed us that it really only takes 2 or 3 people on the team with basic communication skills to make this work every time. I don't mean to be rude, but looking at statistics vs playing the game regularly will give you a much better idea at what we are dealing with.
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Let me reiterate that rushing to try to solve an issue without knowing its severity can be very harmful.
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Here's the problem with you: you assume that because you perceive something, it is exactly how you think it is. That, combined with wilful ignorance of any evidence, and an ego the size of Russia, is not helpful. Tone down the arrogance, stop being defensive about your conspiracy theories, and then maybe The Illuminati Developers will pay attention to you as you think is your due.
He plays every now and then under an alias, if that counts?
I play more than you know.
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I'm not sure what the goal is here in terms of balancing the game, but I was always under the assumption the first priority was balance in competitive games.
i doubt that is the case, otherwise data would not be taken seriously from US1, and the actual server that provided the data would be a clan server.
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Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does.
The marazap has been woefully underused in gpp, it should have been dominating for a long time now, but that old 1.1 hangover of killwhoring with goons rather than actually attempting to win the round has somehow continued, getting a decent zap rush together is stupidly difficult on us1, now that people have just recently heard that it might have become OP they're finally trying it out, this can only be positive, you're not going to hurt the stats by whoring marazap if it's the best tool for the job.
tl;dr for you guys?
Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
that didnt work with the flamer.
Maybe the flamer just isn't OP? tbh it's a bit rubbish against anything bigger than a dretch, i'd rather have a chaingun most of the time.
I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.
as they've shown in pubgames or scrims? human bases in public games are often disastrously poorly thought out, that they easily fall to a coordinated attack should come as no surprise.
*snip*
In a competitive scrim environment, this is not the case since teamwork is essential and the mara zap reigns supreme because maras are fairly cheap and easy to dodge with. That makes taking out human bases trivial.
That's where not allowing the opposition to reach stage 2 comes in.
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I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.
as they've shown in pubgames or scrims? human bases in public games are often disastrously poorly thought out, that they easily fall to a coordinated attack should come as no surprise.
Pubgames. Xenocide split themselves on both teams and tried a variety of bases to counter mara zap, yet each failed. This went on for about sixteen games.
*snip*
In a competitive scrim environment, this is not the case since teamwork is essential and the mara zap reigns supreme because maras are fairly cheap and easy to dodge with. That makes taking out human bases trivial.
That's where not allowing the opposition to reach stage 2 comes in.
True. But if humans consistently prevented aliens from reaching stage 2, the game would have other balance issues (or the opposing team is just very good, in which case, mara zap being OP is irrelevant). However, if both teams are equal skillwise, both teams should reach stage 2 at approximately the same time. When that happens, humans are pretty powerless to stop an organized mara rush.
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Re: People are likely biasing good players -> Aliens to try the new zap, it was nothing like that in the games i played, it seemed much more the good players were going to humans to try and counterbalance the new zap, plus we were voting the most human-biased maps we could to try and counter it as well.
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Let me reiterate that rushing to try to solve an issue without knowing its severity can be very harmful.
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Here's the problem with you: you assume that because you perceive something, it is exactly how you think it is. That, combined with wilful ignorance of any evidence, and an ego the size of Russia, is not helpful. Tone down the arrogance, stop being defensive about your conspiracy theories, and then maybe The Illuminati Developers will pay attention to you as you think is your due.
He plays every now and then under an alias, if that counts?
I play more than you know.
Leave it to an egotistical, single-minded developer to make a post about the community and balance issues and use it as a way to flame me and call me out on MY arrogance heh. These are not in-fact "conspiracy theories" find me a decent player who's happy with the job the dev team is doing. You write off the opinions and ideas of many of us and substitute them with what you think is best.
You see, I perceive that Marauder Zap is overpowered because I've experienced it first hand, witnessed 16+ games none lasting longer 10 minutes because of this as did many of the other players complaining in this thread. So the whole "let's wait for more evidence to support these claims" talk is just you not willing to admit you made a mistake by letting this happen
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find me a player who's happy with the job the dev team is doing.
hi.
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I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.
as they've shown in pubgames or scrims? human bases in public games are often disastrously poorly thought out, that they easily fall to a coordinated attack should come as no surprise.
Pubgames. Xenocide split themselves on both teams and tried a variety of bases to counter mara zap, yet each failed. This went on for about sixteen games.
And i take it they'd also done this previously in anticipation of the new fixed marazap so that they could compare its effect on a well populated public game before and after?
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From the games that I've been in before the mara zap fix, I have seen them split themselves up on both teams, but none of those games ended in a 16 alien win streak.
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10-0 alien winstreak again tonight. We stopped because we got bored.
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As the stacking died down the aliens started to receive fewer feeder evos and suddenly things balanced out a bit, humans even won a match!
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Eureka! I have discovered that 2 advanced marauders cause the entire human base to become smokey and disappear! And all the humans start planking!
The greatest part is that this happens even if humans are at a higher stage count!
Great success!
p.s. make lip like zipper and keep hush hush becuz i think is glitch lol and no one know so shhh keep sekret :police:
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From the games that I've been in before the mara zap fix, I have seen them split themselves up on both teams, but none of those games ended in a 16 alien win streak.
how many of those games included 4-5 humans fucking off and not playing seriously?
see pazuzu's movie for reference.
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I see so many poor bases, I used to help but I go aliens since the newbies don't build for them usually.
If humans put out a decent base it will stand up against most things decently.
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Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.
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Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.
I have been trying to build a base that works but as it turns out the more anti zap it is the easier ANY alien can kill it (including adv maras if they swipe instead of zap) but I cannot think of any way to build a base that is good against both... Maybe a dev can get on and teach us how to build >.>
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Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.
I have been trying to build a base that works but as it turns out the more anti zap it is the easier ANY alien can kill it (including adv maras if they swipe instead of zap) but I cannot think of any way to build a base that is good against both... Maybe a dev can get on and teach us how to build >.>
try spacing, and defending from inside the spaces, so that you soak up available zap targets.
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Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.
I have been trying to build a base that works but as it turns out the more anti zap it is the easier ANY alien can kill it (including adv maras if they swipe instead of zap) but I cannot think of any way to build a base that is good against both... Maybe a dev can get on and teach us how to build >.>
try spacing, and defending from inside the spaces, so that you soak up available zap targets.
So, what about when you need to leave the bas---- OH, you mean camp. Great devs, lets make the game even MORE slow paced. Why not just give us Ubuild and 1shot granger spit kills. Perfectly fine, right?
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Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.
Then it's problem with the base not the mara, as single mara didn't get any significant boost.
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I tried to make my points to developers on IRC, but I'm not sure if they were the actual devs or troll imposters.
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So, what about when you need to leave the bas---- OH, you mean camp. Great devs, lets make the game even MORE slow paced. Why not just give us Ubuild and 1shot granger spit kills. Perfectly fine, right?
only when defending, silly.
what, you've never taken a shot for the OM as an alien?
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Right now, we are trying to find a happy medium in human basebuilding. We have to make a choice as a human ckit to build a spread out base to help counter the mara zap at the risk of letting 2 goons pick it apart, or building a more condensed base to counter goon rush at risk of letting 2 mars zap it apart.
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Mara zap is a placebo. You're making it strong by thinking it is strong... no more.
Your self-suggestion ceases to exist after you get the true state of things. I hope that will be the case.
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Uh, nobody said it's not OP, or that it will never be changed ever. We'd just like to actually be more sure of it first by waiting for some more data, rather than wildly making changes every time a few people complain. If it's too much, we'll take care of it, as we always do.
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If it's too much, we'll take care of it, as we always do.
haha
hahaha
ha
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Uh, nobody said it's not OP, or that it will never be changed ever. We'd just like to actually be more sure of it first by waiting for some more data, rather than wildly making changes every time a few people complain. If it's too much, we'll take care of it, as we always do.
I find it astounding to believe you guys didnt expect this, tbh.
It was already being said by some that mara zap is borderline OP, and now you buffed it? Of course its gonna cause a problem.
I don't have a problem with bugfixing, but the range increase is just silly, and with the fact that zaps no longer cancel each other out, I would think simply lowering the chain damage should be all thats needed to fix this.
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here is a demo of why this is retarded.
http://www.mediafire.com/?x55g5zxwzj2636b
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here is a demo of why this is retarded.
http://www.mediafire.com/?x55g5zxwzj2636b
Don't bother watching, he plays hopelessly(though tbh so does everyone else) and the human base is more or less default ATCS, i've no idea why the match took so long. It's also interesting that the human base is full of adv goon carcasses at the end, rather than just the one mara, as you'd expect.
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at u can c, dis tesla :tesla: has many talens. :police:
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maybe, teslas do not receive damage from mara's zap(or, low damage from zaps, and maras receive low damage from teslas).
maybe,a long range turrets can fix it(but,with a little inaccuracy), like natural selection turrets(or tf2) : ), its more realistic(realism,realism,realism, lol XD) and fun, and help to counter crary mara rush, in some situations, maras need a small help from gons/tts for help in cleaning the base(these classes of aliens can receive more damage) like 1.1.
in gpp, is needed only a maras rush to humans win, and the other aliens? are useless or less efficient at it.
exemple, tt and gons destroy some turrets, and maras help in the cleanup (splash damage from zaps+ direct attack of tt/gon = no human base), not mara rush = win.
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I don't have a problem with bugfixing, but the range increase is just silly, and […] the fact that zaps no longer cancel each other out
Translation: I have no problem with you fixing bugs as long as they aren't bugs that I like. I'm sure we'll keep that in mind next time.
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In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.
It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference? The problem with you Developers is you rely too much on "sufficient data" rather than playing the game for yourself and trusting members of the community that have been around for several years and stayed loyal to this game even though you developers continue to toss our opinions and ideas on how to make this game more enjoyable and balanced to the side and go with whatever you want. It's amazing how people wonder what happened to this game, where'd all the players go? Where'd the clan scene go? Just take one look at the forums and posts made my developers and it's not hard to figure out why this game is dying. People will back you up with the excuse "They're doing it for free, make your own game if you don't like this one." and that's the kind of attitude and logic that made players leave this once good and enjoyable game. You also don't have to be doing this for shits and giggles. I look on this website, and see no advertisements. To my knowledge advertising a bit would be an easy to make money. (Look at UrbanTerror's website, a game that is also broken, but the developers actually keep us updated and do work)
The community in this game has been getting ignored for years now, and it's amazing how you developers even have a loyal community that still plays this game. The testimonies of several skilled and respected players have been saying that zap is a bit overpowered for awhile now, and you go and buff it to the point where aliens are winning 62.7% of the games,and you're not fixing it because there isn't sufficient amount of data to back up these accusations? One team is winning nearly 63% of games because of something that is overpowered, players are complaining, scrims are resulting in ties because both teams are winning aliens, do you need more data from a game in which you yourself rarely play? Your ego, flawed logic, and reasoning has made this game what it is today (not a compliment)
I highly sympathize with this. This is an open source game, not the product of a professional studio. You will never be able to balance the game to your satisfaction simply because the teams are different. Relying on statistics only digs you further into the hole: for instance, maps have a consequential effect of their own on how a team performs. Think qualitatively. Fixing by means of statistics leads to a game with 10 classes and 10 weapons and only 1 of each ever being used. Game needs to be playable, not 50/50 fair based on games played early in its history by people who don't understand it.
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in gpp, is needed only a maras rush to humans win, and the other aliens? are useless or less efficient at it.
as if the humans did not have weapons that are more effective for rushing bases than others. when was the last time you saw a game where s2+ humans won without using naids?
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In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.
It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
*Snip rantings of an egotist*
I highly sympathize with this. This is an open source game, not the product of a professional studio. You will never be able to balance the game to your satisfaction simply because the teams are different. Relying on statistics only digs you further into the hole: for instance, maps have a consequential effect of their own on how a team performs. Think qualitatively. Fixing by means of statistics leads to a game with 10 classes and 10 weapons and only 1 of each ever being used. Game needs to be playable, not 50/50 fair based on games played early in its history by people who don't understand it.
Do you actually play trem, have you used marazap extensively pre and post-fix, do you realise that these demands for marazap to be nerfed are nothing but the kneejerk reactions of a few long-term community trolls who've been putting some serious effort into attempting to prove that marazap has suddenly become OP, but failing?
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In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.
It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
Should just lock this thread, no point for it anymore.
*Snip rantings of an egotist*
I highly sympathize with this. This is an open source game, not the product of a professional studio. You will never be able to balance the game to your satisfaction simply because the teams are different. Relying on statistics only digs you further into the hole: for instance, maps have a consequential effect of their own on how a team performs. Think qualitatively. Fixing by means of statistics leads to a game with 10 classes and 10 weapons and only 1 of each ever being used. Game needs to be playable, not 50/50 fair based on games played early in its history by people who don't understand it.
Do you actually play trem, have you used marazap extensively pre and post-fix, do you realise that these demands for marazap to be nerfed are nothing but the kneejerk reactions of a few long-term community trolls who've been putting some serious effort into attempting to prove that marazap has suddenly become OP, but failing?
You out of all people to call anyone a troll is hilarious. When i first made this post, i just wanted to state my opinion on the new marazap and generate some feedback. I guess me saying that mara zap is strong this patch offends some people apparently. This further proves there is no point to give any feedback to this community, this game is dieing and will never grow for a few reasons.
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i revise my opinion. new marazap has humans so scared they continiously puss out and camp even harder than before.
or, better idea, dont change marazap but say you did. watch the posts roll in about how much more balanced it is.
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i revise my opinion. new marazap has humans so scared they continiously puss out and camp even harder than before.
or, better idea, dont change marazap but say you did. watch the posts roll in about how much more balanced it is.
The funny thing is that would probably work considering how stupid the population of tremulous is.
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You out of all people to call anyone a troll is hilarious. When i first made this post, i just wanted to state my opinion on the new marazap and generate some feedback. I guess me saying that mara zap is strong this patch offends some people apparently. This further proves there is no point to give any feedback to this community, this game is dieing and will never grow for a few reasons.
You cried ZOMG CHANGES IT BAKS NAO!!1!, we all heard you, i think the devs did too, one would imagine that they'd like to see what kind of real world effect the changes have, rather than pandering to you whenever you get a bit noisy. It may well turn out to be somewhat op, in which case they'll change things, but you and your xenocidal puppets are going to have to calm down and wait.
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You see, I perceive that Marauder Zap is overpowered because I've experienced it first hand, witnessed 16+ games none lasting longer 10 minutes because of this as did many of the other players complaining in this thread. So the whole "let's wait for more evidence to support these claims" talk is just you not willing to admit you made a mistake by letting this happen
Seeing a few matches is hardly enough to give a valid opinion on the balance of something. Many of the people complaining and wanting it to be nerfed played dozens of games last night
I don't see why you feel the need to wait longer if a large portion of the community is complaining that this in fact overpowered.
Okay. I just played a series of games too that (despite a few people trying to abuse the zap) were actually perfectly fair and fun. From all the talk in this thread I was expecting the game to be nigh unplayable, but not even one game hinted at the zap being overpowered. My conclusion? That it's too early to draw a conclusion. And that who you're playing with makes an enormous difference. I've been at this for a long time, and I've learned that first impressions of balance changes are more-or-less a toss-up in terms of accuracy. Even a long string of games isn't enough when you're playing with mostly the same group of people the whole time and everyone is still in the process of adjusting.
I don't see why you feel the need to wait longer if a large portion of the community is complaining that this in fact overpowered.
I'm quite willing to believe that we've created a problem, but it's not enough to decide to fix something -- I also have to decide how to fix it so that the solution doesn't cause it's own problems (and if at all possible, addresses the root problem instead of just a highly visible symptom). And that means I have to actually see the problem firsthand.
When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference? The problem with you Developers is you rely too much on "sufficient data" rather than playing the game for yourself and trusting members of the community that have been around for several years
A lot of the community seems to be misinformed about how much importance I place on automatically collected statistics. I decided not to present this set of changes as a whole new "phase" because I feel that we're past the point where graphs and numbers are really of much use. I'm thinking now that we should stop showing these things altogether so people will stop getting the wrong idea -- but then I have no doubt we'd instead be accused of being arbitrary for not relying on any impartial metrics.
The reality is (and I've said this before before (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=14306.msg206997#msg206997)) is that that the statistics hardly influence balance decisions at all anymore, aside from helping to validate the conclusions I've already arrived at from firsthand experience and (more and more these days) from listening to the players I've learned to take seriously.
Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does.
that didnt work with the flamer.
OhaiReapd is actually close to being right here, but not it's about stats. The quickest way to get a balance issue fixed is to show me, personally, in-game, how abusable something it is. No one did that with the flamer, and since my opinion (formed from copious playtesting) was corroborated by the statistics, I didn't change it any further.
tl;dr;
I played some tonight to test the new zap and I'll play tomorrow too (and more after that I'm sure). I thought the balance before this update was pretty good, so in all likelihood we'll find a way to scale this new, less buggy zap back to the level of the old, unintuitive and broken zap. Can we please stop attacking each other personally over this?
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Can we please stop attacking each other personally over this?
Look at where you're posting that, dude.
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You out of all people to call anyone a troll is hilarious. When i first made this post, i just wanted to state my opinion on the new marazap and generate some feedback. I guess me saying that mara zap is strong this patch offends some people apparently. This further proves there is no point to give any feedback to this community, this game is dieing and will never grow for a few reasons.
Keep telling y'all. It WILL die. Anyone with an opinion is wrong. Especially those who play more than anyone else.
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I don't have a problem with bugfixing, but the range increase is just silly, and […] the fact that zaps no longer cancel each other out
Translation: I have no problem with you fixing bugs as long as they aren't bugs that I like. I'm sure we'll keep that in mind next time.
Not at all what i was trying to say.
Bugfix = good, BUT when the bugfix makes something more powerful than it was previously by a significant margin, then something(AKA the damage values) needs to be changed to put it back where it belongs.
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No one did that with the flamer, and since my opinion (formed from copious playtesting) was corroborated by the statistics, I didn't change it any further.
i think not enough folks did it for long enough. flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.
what i was getting at was that right after it was buffed there was an outcry that it was OP (albeit a smallish outcry, nothing on the magnitude of this change here).
then everyone adjusted to it, and things quieted down. i suspect this will be the case in this situation as well.
i would like to see knockback removed from it though.....
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Bugfix = good, BUT when the bugfix makes something more powerful than it was previously by a significant margin, then something(AKA the damage values) needs to be changed to put it back where it belongs.
And I would humbly submit that a turnaround time of a week (or even two!) is not unreasonable, and not deserving of people forswearing the entire game in anger.
i think not enough folks did it for long enough. flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.
It's not like it's too late to convince me. Often times a gameplay problem only manifests in rather particular circumstances, and it's often taken only a single illustrative game to show me what's wrong with something.
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i think not enough folks did it for long enough. flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.
Does that mean it's almost as OP as the MD, are you still after an end to one shot dretch kills? The thing i find most difficult to deal with is a skilled goon, so i imagine they're OP too. By the way, did ohaireapd ever get around to proving how OP dodge is?
I will admit that the flamer is a powerful weapon that's quite underused, much as the marazap was before everyone heard how OP it was, and maybe the idea that it was OP came about in the same way(i'm sure we can dredge up the relevant ZOMG threads that followed the update).
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Does that mean it's almost as OP as the MD, are you still after an end to one shot dretch kills? The thing i find most difficult to deal with is a skilled goon, so i imagine they're OP too.
if you look, i skirted around the edges of the flamer in that thread. i also suggested removing one hit goon kills. even though goon costs more than MD.
instant death = no fun.
i do wish i had the space to record demos though. it'd be interesting to see thoughts on coordinated flamer rushes in public games.
this is all not really on topic though. if you like we can continue this discussion in the 1hko thread.
It's not like it's too late to convince me. Often times a gameplay problem only manifests in rather particular circumstances, and it's often taken only a single illustrative game to show me what's wrong with something.
as i mentioned above, i dont have the disk space to record demos. i'm not sure how i could present evidence to support my sentiment without them. i guess i can only hope that some clan does a flamer rush while you happen to be playing.
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OK First of all i want i to say i am in no way shape or form the best trem player.
I used to be really good but know i suck comparing myself to then.
But if there is one thing i don't suck at is base building, and I will flamed for this.
I may be one of the best builders for both teams on nearly any map around.
I think most of the issue comes not from the mara zap, but how bases are built.
In 1.1 bases where compact and small so they could deal large amounts of damage to tyrants.
In 1.2 bases are made REALLY spread out only so they can not be raped by a mara zap, usually this doesn't work as planned becuase of lack of space or people filling the gaps.
Repeaters have become much more valuable and encourage making forwards for aggressive play, or to help make bases more spread apart.
The problem with a really spread out base is that avd goons with a long range attack deal with them quickly, or a tyrant with its high hp wont die fast enough. Forwards put pressure on aliens but tends to make the main base more open as everyone goes on the offensive. Mara zap makes any type of compact base out of the question, but even bases that are spread apart far enough to not get chained while still dealing enough damage to keep rants away get chained anyway becuase people fill the gaps.
Not that tyrants are really used for base attacking anyway.
In short Human base building is way to fucking hard.
You cant have a compact base because maras will rape it, you cant have spread out bases as this makes it loose its efficiency towards everything even maras it was meant to defeat becuase players fill in the gaps.
Maps also affect bases, and becuase 1.1 had such a "defined" style of building bases that human base building is made even more of a nightmare as now they also have to fight against the maps old methodology. also becuase of how the mara moves most weapons loose most of their efficiency towards it, and that encourages the mara to always be moving and the zap fits perfectly in line with this. And as turrets have a hard time locking on things close range even more so when they move about really fast, encourages it even moar.
The Mara is in a tricky spot, their is nothing you can change on it without breaking it at this point. So i believe that it would be most wise to do something to human base building.
I Recommend:
Make the Tesla a Lighting rod, any zap that manages to chain to it does no damage at all.
This encourages more compact bases but also makes the tesla more then just that defensive structure that usually goes against the human building code of honor. Turrets have a hard time dealing with anything at close range, and tesla are the exacts opposite they should go hand in hand when building a base.
the Defense computer making turret wind up times Zero on everything or only the mara.
Simple, tho it doesn't quite make base building easier it just makes it more forgiving.
"A Expensive turret of some kind that is really good at killing maras by having zero windup time and or a very long range."
I could come up with more radical ideas to fix it like my DC repairs the base based on the damage of it on a whole...
On ending note. When a Bug has to be or turns out it had to be abused/used whether actively or passively to make something balanced means there is a definite issue with something as a whole.
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Heres how i'm dealing with this influx of mara zapping :P
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bBcx4MzXP1o/TkaamhduJmI/AAAAAAAAAfM/6wwiwwFAI1A/s800/shot0056.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XF_kIeTaLlc/Tkac869H7jI/AAAAAAAAAfU/yT_JkxvEonI/s800/shot0061.jpg)
You zap me I zap you back
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What is that rape machine supposed to be?
No one did that with the flamer, and since my opinion (formed from copious playtesting) was corroborated by the statistics, I didn't change it any further.
i think not enough folks did it for long enough. flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.
what i was getting at was that right after it was buffed there was an outcry that it was OP (albeit a smallish outcry, nothing on the magnitude of this change here).
then everyone adjusted to it, and things quieted down. i suspect this will be the case in this situation as well.
i would like to see knockback removed from it though.....
Lol, md bothers you? Why? That makes no sense.
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Heres how i'm dealing with this influx of mara zapping :P
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bBcx4MzXP1o/TkaamhduJmI/AAAAAAAAAfM/6wwiwwFAI1A/s800/shot0056.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XF_kIeTaLlc/Tkac869H7jI/AAAAAAAAAfU/yT_JkxvEonI/s800/shot0061.jpg)
You zap me I zap you back
Omg the perfect solution. Good job Volt! :D
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The Mara is in a tricky spot, their is nothing you can change on it without breaking it at this point. So i believe that it would be most wise to do something to human base building.
the problem is not the zap,the problem is the human base itself, balance the human base, zap is perfect vs humans.
balance the towers to shoot at long distance(with a little inaccuracy), and let the short distance to teslas : )(same for Trappers and acid tubes in alien base)
the turret is one of the few things I do not like the tremulous(short range and very precise,but, 1.2 turrets are a "bit more" fun, stand up time are cool : D..).
like hl2 turrets, something like it can be perfect in tremulous gameplay(but, with less inaccuracy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZVymhgNgn0
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(http://i52.tinypic.com/33z65y1.jpg)
Maybe it's just the alcohol, but that gave me some laugh
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The previous game, on Niveus…
(Note: many edits have been made. However, from the marazap rush onwards, no kills are omitted, and from intermission onwards, nothing is omitted.)
(Note 2: anything said by a spectator will be [$] instead of the normal S in the brackets due to strikethrough.)
PREPERATION FOR STAGE 2
[A] (=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?) (Red Elbow): 12k
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): ADV MARAS MEET DARK STAIRS
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Red Elbow): goons, die and go mara
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): AT S2
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Red Room): Yes
[A] (DSPro|GT-Heli^+) (Window Room Hall): ok
.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST} was pulse rifled by Norfenstein
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Hallway): hs2
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): DARK STAIRS
[A] (=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?) (Ledge Room): 2k
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): ADV MARAS
ALIEN STAGE 2
[A] (UnnamedPlayer) (Crates Room): stairs
[A] (UnnamedPlayer) (Crates Room): inc
[A] ((><)Serendipity) (Red Room): coming
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Stairs Bottom): there
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Stairs Bottom): i'm there ^^
GT-Asvarox was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
AGIA was zapped by =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?'s Marauder
clankercrusher was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Middle): dark stairs clear
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Middle): come adv amras
[A] ((><)Serendipity) (Stairs Bottom): need basi
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Stairs Bottom): kreadygo
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): DARK STAIRS
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): CMON
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): ALL ADV. MARAUDERS ATTACK!!!
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): ALL ADV. MARAUDERS ATTACK!!!
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): ALL ADV. MARAUDERS ATTACK!!!
MARAZAP RUSH TIME
(><)Serendipity was mass driven by Sky
moope was grilled by Norfenstein's flamer
=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka? was gunned down by a turret
Benny Lava >:) was zapped by Michael Bolton aka Jesus's Marauder
.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST} was pulse rifled by AGIA
clankercrusher was zapped by Michael Bolton aka Jesus's Marauder
DSPro|GT-Heli^+ was grilled by Norfenstein's flamer
Michael Bolton aka Jesus was gunned down by a turret
moope was grilled by Norfenstein's flamer
AGIA was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
><|Ryanw4390+cats was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
UnnamedPlayer was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
Norfenstein was bitten by =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): -everything except a bit
Benny Lava >:) was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
Cutievampyr was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): The enemy is weak! ATTACK!!!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): The enemy is weak! ATTACK!!!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): The enemy is weak! ATTACK!!!
:-*Nate. was gunned down by a turret
GT-Asvarox was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
Dub was zapped by Michael Bolton aka Jesus's Marauder
Pollastra was gunned down by TEAMMATE Dinner Menu
Michael Bolton aka Jesus was gunned down by Dinner Menu
clankercrusher was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
moope was toasted by BlackWidow's flamer
AGIA was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST} was mass driven by Sky
[A] Michael Bolton aka Jesus: ARE YOU DOWN WITH THE [OPP] MARAZAP?
Cutievampyr was gunned down by a turret
Norfenstein was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Base): ENEMY OVERMIND/REACTOR DOWN!
ATTACK!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Base): ENEMY OVERMIND/REACTOR DOWN!
ATTACK!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Base): ENEMY OVERMIND/REACTOR DOWN!
ATTACK!
[H] AGIA: gg
(><)Serendipity was grilled by BlackWidow's flamer
Sky was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
UnnamedPlayer was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
Michael Bolton aka Jesus was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
><|Ryanw4390+cats was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
Cutievampyr was gunned down by Dinner Menu
Benny Lava >:) was zapped by moope's Marauder
=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka? was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
[A] =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?: lol
:-*Nate. was grilled by BlackWidow's flamer
GT-Asvarox was clawed by (><)Serendipity's Marauder[/color]
DSPro|GT-Heli^+ was machinegunned by Pollastra
[A] DSPro|GT-Heli^+: lol
Dinner Menu was bitten by Michael Bolton aka Jesus
AGIA was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
Pollastra was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
[H] Dinner Menu: lol
[A] Cutievampyr: i keep freezing up when i enter the human base
BlackWidow toasted himself
Aliens win
[A] DSPro|GT-Heli^+: mara gazsim
[A] =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?: gg
[H] Norfenstein: that corner NEVER works
[A] .7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}: gg
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: gg
[A] :-*Nate.: gg
[A] .7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}: <ate the rc
[A] (><)Serendipity: g
[A] Cutievampyr: gg
[H] AGIA: gg
[H] Dinner Menu: awesome rush
[H] Pollastra: hahahahha
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: i dont think that base was the problem
[A] .7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}: ^
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: we can try another one here
[A] (><)Serendipity: i think humans should stop planking
[H] AGIA: base was good
[H] GT-Asvarox: You Too !
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: ill try anywhere you want for a base
[A] Cutievampyr: i want to go to another map
[$] :Nigga^eh: Need better maps for anti-zap bases
[$] :Nigga^eh: !!
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: but that was really spread out and anti mara zap
[A] =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?: lol!
[A] UnnamedPlayer: planking used to work
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I'd rather just bring back 1.1 turrets. Or make it faster charge rate, AND then have the dcc make the rets 1.1 rets.
Then we're back to square 1 when it comes to the old style of camping for a half hour during scrims. No.
Defenses should only receive minor bonuses, like a slightly better turn rate, maybe even only on the vertical axis. Any other human bonuses should be applied to weapons or to the humans themselves.
Maybe a choice of two turrets, enable the '1.2' turret at stage two... nah thats a shit idea.
Anyways, what im concerned about is that TYRANTS NO LONGER DO BASE KILLING/RUSHES/WHATEVER.
Seriously, when was the last time you saw a successful tyrant rush a human base without zappers/snipers helping? tyrants don't tank/do the 'tyrant' part anymore. Its just kill whoring.
Make the Tesla a Lighting rod, any zap that manages to chain to it does no damage at all.
This encourages more compact bases but also makes the tesla more then just that defensive structure that usually goes against the human building code of honor. Turrets have a hard time dealing with anything at close range, and tesla are the exacts opposite they should go hand in hand when building a base.
True...
First part about lightning rods: Hell no, how bout the mar's zap gives in 'recovering bp' while healing the tesla? Nah, going too far.
My tip to solve lots of human problems: INCREASE RANGE!
On my custom qvm (1.1), i increased the ret's damage to 8 to get close to gpp's values without spinup, and i increased the range from 300 to 380. IT WORKS EXTREMELY WELL. In fact, goon snipers are complaining that the turret's range is too long. How bout making the range to 350? And make the dcc also increase the tesla's range to cope with 'jump and zap' tactic in atcs.
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Posted thoughts on the zap in the other thread (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=16107.msg228502#msg228502). Will wait for more feedback before implementing something.
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Effective Human base building is simple, too may people are 1,1 hard wired.
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Effective Human base building is simple, too may people are 1,1 hard wired.
This is true, if you want your base to last, you need to keep remaking and restructuring it as the aliens stage up. I.e have a good S1 base (rets closer together, trying to keep goons and mara out), then when Aliens reach S2, you wanna try to spread the rets out. However, I found it near impossible to create an S2 base that could could defend from mara zap, so a few humans should try to fill in the space, while the others vigilantly try hard to get S3. Of course, it was like this before, the only thing is it seems even harder when a group of maras come zap, but still isn't much of a big deal. At S3 however, I found it very easy to make a base that kept out both goons and rants, and kept maras from zapping, thanks to the edition of Teslas, which seem to be underused ever since the new mara zap bug fix has been released.
Anyways, I actually like the new fixed zap, and wouldn't mind if it wasn't changed. It'll help humans learn to build, or even attempt to build a base rather than just trying to killwhore.
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At S3 however, I found it very easy to make a base that kept out both goons and rants, and kept maras from zapping, thanks to the edition of Teslas, which seem to be underused ever since the new mara zap bug fix has been released.
Anyways, I actually like the new fixed zap, and wouldn't mind if it wasn't changed. It'll help humans learn to build, or even attempt to build a base rather than just trying to killwhore.
i wonder why no one took the obvious solution. tesla outranges mara, right? and pushes the mara back, yes? so would this not make the tesla a counter for mara+? i suck as mara, yes, and as a mara, well placed teslas are enough on their own to keep me out of a base, even without defenders. i have to try to evolve into goon+ or rant to deal with them.
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1) Tesla doesnt outrange mara (zap-wise)
2) Tesla - s3. Adv. Mara - s2.
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Effective Human base building is simple, too may people are 1,1 hard wired.
It's harder than you think, a lot harder than in 1.1.
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1) Tesla doesnt outrange mara (zap-wise)
2) Tesla - s3. Adv. Mara - s2.
1) That is why you have to be careful about not overusing the teslas and underusing the rets. Putting them in the right place with a DCC will secure your base for a good while.
2) That's why I said some people would have to stay behind and fill in the small holes of the S2 base.
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filling the holes lets the zap travel further.
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sometimes I think we talked a lot about balance, but we never talk about adding more things to the game(like a flying/swimmer alien, or a grenade launcher for humans)
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sometimes I think we talked a lot about balance, but we never talk about adding more things to the game(like a flying/swimmer alien, or a grenade launcher for humans)
We just never talk about wolfbr anymore. Deal with it.
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We talked new shit to death and determined it was just that. More talk about flying/swimming aliens, vehicles, grenade launchers, creep bombs, aliens crawling on aliens, tyrants pooping aliens, etc. etc. is simply not worth our time. I've been at it for half a fucking decade now, and I got here late.
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We talked new shit to death and determined it was just that. More talk about flying/swimming aliens, vehicles, grenade launchers, creep bombs, aliens crawling on aliens, tyrants pooping aliens, etc. etc. is simply not worth our time. I've been at it for half a fucking decade now, and I got here late.
yea, let's talk about balance some more.
rabblerabblerabblemassdrivershotgunrabblerabblera bble
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Actually what should happen to marauder zap:
Since it is already overpowered with its instant zap, why not make the zap do 80 dmg instead of 60 (80 in 1.1), but make the zap not-instant again, but also add a feature where the zap is sort of half 1.1-half gpp, as you click the button, it does 20 damage, but then continues and you'll have to stay close to the structure for the remaining 60 damage to be completed.
So really, zap's instant damage does 20 damage, but continuous for one second (As in 1.1) does 60 damage.
Effectively, it is stronger in damage per second, but not any stronger than 1.1, but also it isn't overpowering in gpp by zap-and hide method. People still can do this, but they will be probably be doing 20 damage plus another 20 damage from time to hiding.
At devs: Stop the 'zap around corners', it looks really glitchy zapping through a wall. (it also works in 1.1, if i extend the zap range in the qvm)
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I suggest a return to the 1.1 zap's damage concept, but for structures only. Keep the damage to enemies the same, while doing something like 100% damage to target structure, 50% for all chained.
Just a hurried idea. Honestly, the mara has both a major advantage and disadvantage in its 1.1 to GPP jump height change. It's so easy now to completely ignore all combat and just rush the human base. Unless you have a luci, or you stand under a low ceiling, you will not interfere with maras getting past your rushing group and into your base, which is essentially either "gg" or "camp to stop their mara rushes."
However, the mara's jump height being greater has also hurt its combat potential a good bit, although you can pin that mostly on how humans' dodge has no counter, even for the best maras. Unless you're talking zap, that is, but that would only apply to weakly armored humans who shouldn't be fighting maras alone anyways.
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Also, I noticed that the mara zap actually has LONGER range than a tesla.
If you stand in front of a tesla, just slightly outside it's range, you can zap it.
This was always true.
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Just a hurried idea. Honestly, the mara has both a major advantage and disadvantage in its 1.1 to GPP jump height change.
I dont think it ever changed, but the manoeuvre did. Air acceleration was increased from 1f to 4f or something...
Unless you have a luci, or you stand under a low ceiling, you will not interfere with maras getting past your rushing group and into your base, which is essentially either "gg" or "camp to stop their mara rushes."
I recommend not chasing a marauder with a luci, that's just plain luck to get him. If people used lasguns or any instant projectile weapon, and actually work as a group, marauders would be totally useless.
Also, i would like to state:
1.1's marauder was mostly used (in my terms) for its rapid swipe, doing the SAME damage/second as a normal goon. (not in gpp, the goon's chomp rate is decreased), and also for its ability to quickly 'jump and swipe around' in mid air. I think the marauder's range should increase rather than zap being instant againts humans as at marauder's highest point in their jump, they can't swipe humans below as their claw range (bite graphic animation to the outside) is too short.
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[img/]http://steamcommunity.com/id/ZdrytchX/screenshot/541780338568593291?post_id=1275288248_218606254867663#_=_[/img]
From my 1.1 qvm of course. It gets really strong, but to manage the strong zaps at once, you need to be within the radius of ur target while moving around quickly, at the same time while zapping. Its my idea. Another tactic that comes up with this zap is that since the zap period is 3 whole seconds, you can zap once, and chase the human around by chomping.
But where the original idea came from is from korx's zap, where it is a area-effect type, and you must hold down the right button to do damage. It has no reload time so you can stop zapping and bite immediately. But the best thing about it is that you don't have to aim. I think the devs said something about making the zap not 'need to aim' but i still have to aim. I tried it on a devmap LAN server, without a rc. I stand on top of the turret, zap, nothing. Then i aim at the turret, zap, and it zaps.
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screw the picture. Look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIJH9RdC-wU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
At the start is me showing field of vision replacing blur effects in pouncing. It really isn't 'effects', just zooming in and out at the right time. I hope the devs get this idea into 1.2.
At the second half, is the marauder demonstrating the zap i showed in the picture. (which won't show) It is powerful, but you have to maintain ur radius from enemy for full damage.
And by the way - i did this on my qvm as a test. I may not really put it in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s0VjMuGR6U&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Me on a non-pure server with my ui.qvm. It takes time to get used to it though.
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I can't really see the zooming effect very well on this video. If the same effect occurs in demos then I suggest you upload a recording from said demo instead.
Does this effect stil work when you don't face the direction you are pouncing?
If humans were ultra-nimble fighters or the zap had some slow recharge time, I'd perhaps consider the easy-zap as a nice addition. As it stands though, it just seems like a lazy version what what we've already got.
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I can't really see the zooming effect very well on this video. If the same effect occurs in demos then I suggest you upload a recording from said demo instead.
Does this effect stil work when you don't face the direction you are pouncing?
If humans were ultra-nimble fighters or the zap had some slow recharge time, I'd perhaps consider the easy-zap as a nice addition. As it stands though, it just seems like a lazy version what what we've already got.
humans can reach 1000+ ups while dodging (from a dead stop in one "jump"), can dodge across the gap in an acts base, and are slightly faster than dretches while sprinting.
oh yea, they run the same speed backwards as forwards. you should try that sometime to see how hard that really is in RL =D
as for zap's refire time, isnt is just a wee bit longer than a MD?
not that i want virus' zap. i just feel humans are more nimble than they have any right to be.
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I don't know what the point of this thread is right now, but I can correct some things
humans… are slightly faster than dretches while sprinting.
Wrong; dretches are still faster
oh yea, they run the same speed backwards as forwards.
Wrong
as for zap's refire time, isnt is just a wee bit longer than a MD?
I wouldn't classify 1/2 second as "a wee bit"
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I don't know what the point of this thread is right now, but I can correct some things
humans… are slightly faster than dretches while sprinting.
Wrong; dretches are still faster
oh yea, they run the same speed backwards as forwards.
Wrong
as for zap's refire time, isnt is just a wee bit longer than a MD?
I wouldn't classify 1/2 second as "a wee bit"
interesting. i now see that moving backwards is indeed slower, but only 20 ups so if sprinting. i also see that dretches are very slightly faster, if neither the dretch or human player jumps, is not being shot, and is not in contact with a grenade or luci detonation. this is also assuming "straight line movement", which the human desires as he can keep aim and speed. the alien must avoid straight lines, as he must dodge bullets, and thus can rarely maintain speed long enough to close the gap.
i still feel that either the humans are too fast and nimble, or the aliens are too slow and clunkey.
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interesting. i now see that moving backwards is indeed slower, but only 20 ups so if sprinting. i also see that dretches are very slightly faster, if neither the dretch or human player jumps, is not being shot, and is not in contact with a grenade or luci detonation. this is also assuming "straight line movement", which the human desires as he can keep aim and speed. the alien must avoid straight lines, as he must dodge bullets, and thus can rarely maintain speed long enough to close the gap.
i still feel that either the humans are too fast and nimble, or the aliens are too slow and clunkey.
Dretch can easily go faster than they would in a straight line with some skillful jumping. Toss in wallwalk and they can easily catch up.
Humans are only fast if the person using them is good with them. Any alien (even tyrant) can strafe jump fast enough to catch up with a retreating human who is using dodge to get back fast (if they are good at strafe jumping). And besides, mara can air-strafe and bounce of walls, goon can just pounce, and rant can charge. And Friend Basi/Granger wouldn't/shouldn't be chasing in the first place.
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interesting. i now see that moving backwards is indeed slower, but only 20 ups so if sprinting. i also see that dretches are very slightly faster, if neither the dretch or human player jumps, is not being shot, and is not in contact with a grenade or luci detonation. this is also assuming "straight line movement", which the human desires as he can keep aim and speed. the alien must avoid straight lines, as he must dodge bullets, and thus can rarely maintain speed long enough to close the gap.
i still feel that either the humans are too fast and nimble, or the aliens are too slow and clunkey.
Dretch can easily go faster than they would in a straight line with some skillful jumping. Toss in wallwalk and they can easily catch up.
Humans are only fast if the person using them is good with them. Any alien (even tyrant) can strafe jump fast enough to catch up with a retreating human who is using dodge to get back fast (if they are good at strafe jumping). And besides, mara can air-strafe and bounce of walls, goon can just pounce, and rant can charge. And Friend Basi/Granger wouldn't/shouldn't be chasing in the first place.
jumping is in a "straight line", meaning you stand a better chance of eating bullets than if you did not jump. wallwalk slows you to maximum run speed, plus the extra shit on the walls of many maps means extra distance you have to move in a direction other than towards your target. mara, goon, and rant all have the HP to accommodate their movement.
you dont have to be THAT good to be fast with a human. human movement seems to be of intermediate difficulty. like your basic strafejump, only slightly more obvious (there is not a strafejump button, but there are sprint and dodge keys available for bind).
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interesting. i now see that moving backwards is indeed slower, but only 20 ups so if sprinting. i also see that dretches are very slightly faster, if neither the dretch or human player jumps, is not being shot, and is not in contact with a grenade or luci detonation. this is also assuming "straight line movement", which the human desires as he can keep aim and speed. the alien must avoid straight lines, as he must dodge bullets, and thus can rarely maintain speed long enough to close the gap.
i still feel that either the humans are too fast and nimble, or the aliens are too slow and clunkey.
Dretch can easily go faster than they would in a straight line with some skillful jumping. Toss in wallwalk and they can easily catch up.
Humans are only fast if the person using them is good with them. Any alien (even tyrant) can strafe jump fast enough to catch up with a retreating human who is using dodge to get back fast (if they are good at strafe jumping). And besides, mara can air-strafe and bounce of walls, goon can just pounce, and rant can charge. And Friend Basi/Granger wouldn't/shouldn't be chasing in the first place.
jumping is in a "straight line", meaning you stand a better chance of eating bullets than if you did not jump. wallwalk slows you to maximum run speed, plus the extra shit on the walls of many maps means extra distance you have to move in a direction other than towards your target. mara, goon, and rant all have the HP to accommodate their movement.
you dont have to be THAT good to be fast with a human. human movement seems to be of intermediate difficulty. like your basic strafejump, only slightly more obvious (there is not a strafejump button, but there are sprint and dodge keys available for bind).
I take it you're practically godlike when playing as humans thesedays, then?
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I take it you're practically godlike when playing as humans thesedays, then?
no, nor as aliens for that matter.