Recent changes concerning mara zap

[Tremulant]

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.

No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does.

The marazap has been woefully underused in gpp, it should have been dominating for a long time now, but that old 1.1 hangover of killwhoring with goons rather than actually attempting to win the round has somehow continued, getting a decent zap rush together is stupidly difficult on us1, now that people have just recently heard that it might have become OP they're finally trying it out, this can only be positive, you're not going to hurt the stats by whoring marazap if it's the best tool for the job.

tl;dr for you guys?

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.

that didnt work with the flamer.

Maybe the flamer just isn't OP? tbh it's a bit rubbish against anything bigger than a dretch, i'd rather have a chaingun most of the time.

I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.

as they've shown in pubgames or scrims? human bases in public games are often disastrously poorly thought out, that they easily fall to a coordinated attack should come as no surprise.

*snip*
In a competitive scrim environment, this is not the case since teamwork is essential and the mara zap reigns supreme because maras are fairly cheap and easy to dodge with. That makes taking out human bases trivial.

That's where not allowing the opposition to reach stage 2 comes in.

[Celestial_Rage]

I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.

as they've shown in pubgames or scrims? human bases in public games are often disastrously poorly thought out, that they easily fall to a coordinated attack should come as no surprise.

Pubgames. Xenocide split themselves on both teams and tried a variety of bases to counter mara zap, yet each failed. This went on for about sixteen games.

*snip*
In a competitive scrim environment, this is not the case since teamwork is essential and the mara zap reigns supreme because maras are fairly cheap and easy to dodge with. That makes taking out human bases trivial.

That's where not allowing the opposition to reach stage 2 comes in.

True. But if humans consistently prevented aliens from reaching stage 2, the game would have other balance issues (or the opposing team is just very good, in which case, mara zap being OP is irrelevant). However, if both teams are equal skillwise, both teams should reach stage 2 at approximately the same time. When that happens, humans are pretty powerless to stop an organized mara rush.

[A Spork]

Re: People are likely biasing good players -> Aliens to try the new zap, it was nothing like that in the games i played, it seemed much more the good players were going to humans to try and counterbalance the new zap, plus we were voting the most human-biased maps we could to try and counter it as well.

[Vape]

Let me reiterate that rushing to try to solve an issue without knowing its severity can be very harmful.

...

Here's the problem with you: you assume that because you perceive something, it is exactly how you think it is. That, combined with wilful ignorance of any evidence, and an ego the size of Russia, is not helpful. Tone down the arrogance, stop being defensive about your conspiracy theories, and then maybe The Illuminati Developers will pay attention to you as you think is your due.

He plays every now and then under an alias, if that counts?

I play more than you know.

Leave it to an egotistical, single-minded developer to make a post about the community and balance issues and use it as a way to flame me and call me out on MY arrogance heh. These are not in-fact "conspiracy theories" find me a decent player who's happy with the job the dev team is doing. You write off the opinions and ideas of many of us and substitute them with what you think is best.

You see, I perceive that Marauder Zap is overpowered because I've experienced it first hand, witnessed 16+ games none lasting longer 10 minutes because of this as did many of the other players complaining in this thread. So the whole "let's wait for more evidence to support these claims" talk is just you not willing to admit you made a mistake by letting this happen

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

find me a player who's happy with the job the dev team is doing.

hi.

[Tremulant]

I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.

as they've shown in pubgames or scrims? human bases in public games are often disastrously poorly thought out, that they easily fall to a coordinated attack should come as no surprise.

Pubgames. Xenocide split themselves on both teams and tried a variety of bases to counter mara zap, yet each failed. This went on for about sixteen games.

And i take it they'd also done this previously in anticipation of the new fixed marazap so that they could compare its effect on a well populated public game before and after?

[Celestial_Rage]

From the games that I've been in before the mara zap fix, I have seen them split themselves up on both teams, but none of those games ended in a 16 alien win streak.

[Vape]

10-0 alien winstreak again tonight. We stopped because we got bored.

[Tremulant]

As the stacking died down the aliens started to receive fewer feeder evos and suddenly things balanced out a bit, humans even won a match!

[Flux]

Eureka! I have discovered that 2 advanced marauders cause the entire human base to become smokey and disappear! And all the humans start planking!

The greatest part is that this happens even if humans are at a higher stage count!

Great success!

p.s. make lip like zipper and keep hush hush becuz i think is glitch lol and no one know so shhh keep sekret

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

From the games that I've been in before the mara zap fix, I have seen them split themselves up on both teams, but none of those games ended in a 16 alien win streak.

how many of those games included 4-5 humans fucking off and not playing seriously?

see pazuzu's movie for reference.

[jm82792]

I see so many poor bases, I used to help but I go aliens since the newbies don't build for them usually.
If humans put out a decent base it will stand up against most things decently.

[Pazuzu]

Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.

[ArrowBlade]

Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.

I have been trying to build a base that works but as it turns out the more anti zap it is the easier ANY alien can kill it (including adv maras if they swipe instead of zap) but I cannot think of any way to build a base that is good against both... Maybe a dev can get on and teach us how to build >.>

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.

I have been trying to build a base that works but as it turns out the more anti zap it is the easier ANY alien can kill it (including adv maras if they swipe instead of zap) but I cannot think of any way to build a base that is good against both... Maybe a dev can get on and teach us how to build >.>

try spacing, and defending from inside the spaces, so that you soak up available zap targets.

[OhaiReapd]

Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.

I have been trying to build a base that works but as it turns out the more anti zap it is the easier ANY alien can kill it (including adv maras if they swipe instead of zap) but I cannot think of any way to build a base that is good against both... Maybe a dev can get on and teach us how to build >.>

try spacing, and defending from inside the spaces, so that you soak up available zap targets.

So, what about when you need to leave the bas---- OH, you mean camp. Great devs, lets make the game even MORE slow paced. Why not just give us Ubuild and 1shot granger spit kills. Perfectly fine, right?

[Asvarox]

Not marauders. I just saw ArrowBlade make a base on Nexus that was EXTREMELY wide-spaced, and it got wrecked by one advanced mara and one regular dragoon.

Then it's problem with the base not the mara, as single mara didn't get any significant boost.

[Ryanw4390]

I tried to make my points to developers on IRC, but I'm not sure if they were the actual devs or troll imposters.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

So, what about when you need to leave the bas---- OH, you mean camp. Great devs, lets make the game even MORE slow paced. Why not just give us Ubuild and 1shot granger spit kills. Perfectly fine, right?

only when defending, silly.

what, you've never taken a shot for the OM as an alien?

[Ryanw4390]

Right now, we are trying to find a happy medium in human basebuilding. We have to make a choice as a human ckit to build a spread out base to help counter the mara zap at the risk of letting 2 goons pick it apart, or building a more condensed base to counter goon rush at risk of letting 2 mars zap it apart.

[Qrntz]

Mara zap is a placebo. You're making it strong by thinking it is strong... no more.
Your self-suggestion ceases to exist after you get the true state of things. I hope that will be the case.

[Lakitu7]

Uh, nobody said it's not OP, or that it will never be changed ever. We'd just like to actually be more sure of it first by waiting for some more data, rather than wildly making changes every time a few people complain. If it's too much, we'll take care of it, as we always do.

[Thorn]

If it's too much, we'll take care of it, as we always do.

haha
hahaha
ha

[A Spork]

Uh, nobody said it's not OP, or that it will never be changed ever. We'd just like to actually be more sure of it first by waiting for some more data, rather than wildly making changes every time a few people complain. If it's too much, we'll take care of it, as we always do.

I find it astounding to believe you guys didnt expect this, tbh.
It was already being said by some that mara zap is borderline OP, and now you buffed it? Of course its gonna cause a problem.
I don't have a problem with bugfixing, but the range increase is just silly, and with the fact that zaps no longer cancel each other out, I would think simply lowering the chain damage should be all thats needed to fix this.

[OhaiReapd]

here is a demo of why this is retarded.

http://www.mediafire.com/?x55g5zxwzj2636b

[Tremulant]

here is a demo of why this is retarded.

http://www.mediafire.com/?x55g5zxwzj2636b

Don't bother watching, he plays hopelessly(though tbh so does everyone else) and the human base is more or less default ATCS, i've no idea why the match took so long. It's also interesting that the human base is full of adv goon carcasses at the end, rather than just the one mara, as you'd expect.

[StevenM]

at u can c, dis tesla has many talens. 

[wolfbr]

maybe, teslas do not receive damage from mara's zap(or, low damage from zaps, and maras receive low damage from teslas).
maybe,a long range turrets can fix it(but,with a little inaccuracy), like natural selection turrets(or tf2) : ), its more realistic(realism,realism,realism, lol XD) and fun, and help to counter crary mara rush, in some situations, maras need a small help from gons/tts for help in cleaning the base(these classes of aliens can receive more damage) like 1.1.

in gpp, is needed only a maras rush to humans win, and the other aliens? are useless or less efficient at it.

exemple, tt and gons destroy some turrets, and maras help in the cleanup (splash damage from zaps+ direct attack of tt/gon = no human base), not mara rush = win.

[Undeference]

I don't have a problem with bugfixing, but the range increase is just silly, and [...] the fact that zaps no longer cancel each other out

Translation: I have no problem with you fixing bugs as long as they aren't bugs that I like. I'm sure we'll keep that in mind next time.

[Blade]

In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.

It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.

When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference? The problem with you Developers is you rely too much on "sufficient data" rather than playing the game for yourself and trusting members of the community that have been around for several years and stayed loyal to this game even though you developers continue to toss our opinions and ideas on how to make this game more enjoyable and balanced to the side and go with whatever you want. It's amazing how people wonder what happened to this game, where'd all the players go? Where'd the clan scene go? Just take one look at the forums and posts made my developers and it's not hard to figure out why this game is dying. People will back you up with the excuse "They're doing it for free, make your own game if you don't like this one." and that's the kind of attitude and logic that made players leave this once good and enjoyable game. You also don't have to be doing this for shits and giggles. I look on this website, and see no advertisements. To my knowledge advertising a bit would be an easy to make money. (Look at UrbanTerror's website, a game that is also broken, but the developers actually keep us updated and do work)

The community in this game has been getting ignored for years now, and it's amazing how you developers even have a loyal community that still plays this game. The testimonies of several skilled and respected players have been saying that zap is a bit overpowered for awhile now, and you go and buff it to the point where aliens are winning 62.7% of the games,and you're not fixing it because there isn't sufficient amount of data to back up these accusations? One team is winning nearly 63% of games because of something that is overpowered, players are complaining, scrims are resulting in ties because both teams are winning aliens, do you need more data from a game in which you yourself rarely play? Your ego, flawed logic, and reasoning has made this game what it is today (not a compliment)

I highly sympathize with this. This is an open source game, not the product of a professional studio. You will never be able to balance the game to your satisfaction simply because the teams are different. Relying on statistics only digs you further into the hole: for instance, maps have a consequential effect of their own on how a team performs. Think qualitatively. Fixing by means of statistics leads to a game with 10 classes and 10 weapons and only 1 of each ever being used. Game needs to be playable, not 50/50 fair based on games played early in its history by people who don't understand it.