Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: Lava Croft on July 27, 2008, 01:20:48 pm
-
Yes, everybody has an opinion about Unlagged, go and express it!
-
If Tremulous 1.1.0 is Tremulous, then Tremulous 1.2.0 is not Tremulous. So so much has changed. And they are complaining about it, just as about unlagged. Once they will be part of the game (actually, unlagged already mostly is), everyone will have other, then-current things to bitch about. Why not complain about Tremulous 1.1.0 because you are used to 1.0.2?
-
personally i think unlagged has major issues and shifts balance more to humans just like everyone else its just an opinion and i hate various side effects (mainly dieing when your clearly past that corner) it might be good for q3 but for a melee class (aliens) and a range class (humans) humans clearly have the advantage. i also think it hinders players ability to effectively dodge.
anyway their my views on unlagged
-
Unlagged is good. It seperates the men from the boys. It makes the rifle better and it makes a basic human is equal to a dretch.
I think people have to play with Unlagged long enough to realize that aliens (especially dretches) will get killed more initially. But after a few games, the good players will adjust and it will be business as usual. Also, its improves alien accuracy as well.
As for the unfair kills (i.e. you were behind a wall but got shot anyways), that the price you pay for more accuracy. But its not as common as people think. It happens in other games with some form of Unlagged and other players accept it.
-
And it happens without unlagged too, just people don't seem to bitch as much then.
-
And it happens without unlagged too, just people don't seem to bitch as much then.
It does not happen nearly as much, and if it happens, you do not travel as far around the corner before dying as you would with Unlagged.
Unlagged is good. It seperates the men from the boys.
How Unlagged separates the men from the boys is beyond me, since I think men do not need help when aiming.
Continuing on this core element of any Quake game, don't you mind that Unlagged is basically an 'aiming assistant'?
-
Unlagged creates some degree of balance between those with low pings and those with high pings. Therefore, it is a solution.
-
Continuing on this core element of any Quake game, don't you mind that Unlagged is basically an 'aiming assistant'?
Its an 'aiming assistant' about as much as any other core part of the engine is. Lets remove the renderer, its helping you play better!
Its not giving an advantage, its taking away a disadvantage.
-
What Unlagged does is touch a vital part of the Quake gameplay, in favor of those incapable or unwilling to learn/adapt to aiming with latency.
It might be a solution, but it is a solution that takes away control from the player in favor of those less capable. This also happens to software like operating systems, only in the latter case, people tend to think it's a bad thing.
[EDIT]
Lets remove the renderer, its helping you play better!
What about an addition to the renderer that lets you see through walls with a certain radius?
In other words, you could at least try not to sound silly.
-
In order for something to be a solution, there must be a problem it solves. Latency "correction" is a workaround for an unfortunate bug in the universe that prevents instantaneous communication (we call it "physics", a synonym for "unintended features"). A side effect of much of the universe being made up by really ugly, undocumented perl hacks is that it is totally unmaintainable and nobody can quite figure out why things appear to work.
There's a quote that goes something along the lines of, it's not the answer, but it raises some interesting questions.
-
A lot of people do not see latency as a problem at all, and those people make up a part of this community, as do the people who think latency is a problem. Only fact is, that the first group is ignored, while all development is being focused on the second. This development is what worries me, since it touches the core of Quake.
I think 'degeneration' is a good word for this development. 'Dumbing down' is also a popular term, and a somewhat more friendly one at that.
-
Like I've said many a time...
Can anyone outrun a bullet? Because all Unlagged does is make near instant projectiles actually hit instantly. If instant weapons do not function like this, then the netcode is broken.
Yes, you have done well with the netcode up until now. Yes, you many not have any problems. But if the game doesn't represent what it is intended, its needs to be fixed. If Unlagged fixes that, than anyone that is oppossed to it is a FPS Luddite.
-
In order for something to be a solution, there must be a problem it solves. Latency "correction" is a workaround for an unfortunate bug in the universe that prevents instantaneous communication (we call it "physics", a synonym for "unintended features"). A side effect of much of the universe being made up by really ugly, undocumented perl hacks is that it is totally unmaintainable and nobody can quite figure out why things appear to work.
There's a quote that goes something along the lines of, it's not the answer, but it raises some interesting questions.
hehe, good one.
Unlagged changes the game. Both may be called tremulous, but there is a difference in how the game will be played.
Unlagged is not a god given super solution to answer the problem of latency, it just handles packages differently.
It comes with side effects, which favors one type of play, and gives disadvantage to another type of playing.
A fairly good description is given here, a link provided by the same temple in one of the other 100 threads about unlagged:
unlagged_faq (http://alternatefire.planetquake.gamespy.com/unlagged_faq.html)
There the author says
Wait – so is there more I should be worried about?
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks...
For those players that have a tactical way of moving around, they have to readjust such, that the resulting game type is not why they play tremulous.
The quoted unlagged developer does claim that there will be fairness issues with high lag when trying to compensate for high lag using Unlagged.
-
Lets remove the renderer, its helping you play better!
What about an addition to the renderer that lets you see through walls with a certain radius?
In other words, you could at least try not to sound silly.
Walls and there blocking of sight is a carefully designed in game-play element.
Lag is something that a great deal of effort was taken to remove.
We now have the tech to make it better. Refusing is like saying we shouldn't upgrade the graphics as some old people like the current stuff.
What we have now is broken. Unlagged moves it closer to to the intended target.
-
But if the game doesn't represent what it is intended, its needs to be fixed
What we have now is broken. Unlagged moves it closer to to the intended target.
Who decides how it is intended? And Unlagged doesn't fix latency. It does not remove latency from the game, it shifts the latency around (from the high ping shooter to the target).
Explanation:
Without unlagged a player only has to compensate for his/her own lag.
With unlagged a player has to compensate for the lag of the attacker. When to get out of reach of a player, who is about to commence with a hitscan attack, is not visible from the screen, since
you cannot know when, in the attackers own time, he started to move towards you.
With unlagged the game is not WYSIWYG, its not what you see. Its what the other high ping client saw. So much about the intend of the game and how to fix it
There is no right or wrong in my opinion about Unlagged, but there is a preference.
I personally hope that developers keep in mind with their balance tweaks, that there will, especially in europe, be many servers that will continue to run tremulous without unlagged when Trem 1.2 comes out.
And to quote n00b pl0x
cl_maxping 50
Thats the best solution to latency you can get, will push the game more into the direction it was intended than unlagged ever will :D
edit: fixed typos
-
Who decides how it is intended?
Can you outrun a bullet?
-
Who decides how it is intended?
Can you outrun a bullet?
Can you shoot me when I see you aiming in a total different direction?
Can you shoot around corners?
See, there is a whole lot of new questions arising, and the truth is, it's just a matter of perspective.
There's a quote that goes something along the lines of, it's not the answer, but it raises some interesting questions.
Unlagged is good. It seperates the men from the boys. It makes the rifle better and it makes a basic human is equal to a dretch.
Better take a lucy then, if the rifle is to hard to handle :-D
-
Who decides how it is intended?
Can you outrun a bullet?
Can you shoot me when I see you aiming in a total different direction?
Can you shoot around corners?
Unlagged doesn't allow a player to do either of those things. Those things are the byproduct of the weapons working as intended when people with different pings fight.
Which is a lot better than weapons not hitting targets when they are aiming at them.
-
Who decides how it is intended?
Can you outrun a bullet?
Can you shoot me when I see you aiming in a total different direction?
Can you shoot around corners?
what you see is by definition inaccurate, unlagged changes nothing in that respect.
-
I can summerize my arguments simply by saying I currently play on 2 servers where one has regular hit detection and the other with Unlagged. I'm still a good player on either but Unlagged just makes the game MORE balanced. Rifles actually kill stuff and aliens get hits when they should. Without Unlagged the game feels very ping biased. These worst case scenarios are so rare, its not worth mentioning.
-
I see people complain about being shot while their shooter isn't even aiming at them in unlagged games. However, think of it this way. Given a weapon that fires instantly and whose projectile or effect travels faster than light, would it not stand to reason that you would feel the effect of the weapon before you ever saw or heard it being fired? This is the same reason you see fireworks before you hear them, the light travels faster than the sound. You see the bright flash and know to expect the boom. Well, if you get killed, know to expect that the attacker will turn and fire at you, because from his perspective he already has.
Everything is relative in life; someone traveling close to the speed of light will appear to be zipping around at an inhuman speed to you, while you will appear to be at a standstill to him. Neither of you are wrong, it's all based on your perspective. In the case of unlagged play, neither side is wrong in what they saw happen; the attacker saw the target cross their field of view, turned, fired and killed him. The target saw that they moved somewhere, and through persistence of vision (or in this case, lag due to their ping being too different from the attacker) their brain (the server) filled in that some things happened when they really didn't, because they were already shot and killed.
Does it suck? I never liked unlagged when I started playing, because I played with a relatively low ping all the time. I then saw how things changed when I was no longer using that low ping and had to connect elsewhere. I played some games with unlagged turned on, and realized that while some times it annoyed me, other times it helped me - it leveled the playing field for all.
In my personal opinion, if you don't want unlagged turned on, then don't turn it on. But don't expect anyone who isn't on the same network to have a fun time playing there. If Tremulous didn't have unlagged as an option, I'm sure people would work around it - leading shots, etc. However there might be just as many who wouldn't play, or wouldn't play on as many servers as they do, because it's not fun to have to correct for a variable problem like network latency across the Internet when you're trying to have fun.
-
what you see is by definition inaccurate, unlagged changes nothing in that respect.
It changes what a player has to compensate for, his or the other players ping.
Neither of you are wrong, it's all based on your perspective. In the case of unlagged play, neither side is wrong in what they saw happen;
Well put Rocinante, someone that understands unlagged. It's what I have been trying to say, its a matter of perspective and preference.
My only concern being that the game is being balanced towards unlagged play, where before it was balanced without unlagged.
The option itself is a simple setting in the server configuration, that is not the problem. And I see it is hard to make it right for both game types, just asking to keep both playstyles in mind when balancing.
Unlagged is not what temple is trying to make believe the truth in all perspectives, the none-sideeffect-cure to internet latency and the answer to time travel.
-
what you see is by definition inaccurate, unlagged changes nothing in that respect.
It changes what a player has to compensate for, his or the other players ping.
Neither of you are wrong, it's all based on your perspective. In the case of unlagged play, neither side is wrong in what they saw happen;
Well put Rocinante, someone that understands unlagged. It's what I have been trying to say, its a matter of perspective and preference.
My only concern being that the game is being balanced towards unlagged play, where before it was balanced without unlagged.
The option itself is a simple setting in the server configuration, that is not the problem. And I see it is hard to make it right for both game types, just asking to keep both playstyles in mind when balancing.
Unlagged is not what temple is trying to make believe the truth in all perspectives, the none-sideeffect-cure to internet latency and the answer to time travel.
if a balanced game becomes unbalanced when all players are lpb's (like on a lan) there are bigger issues than whether you like lag correction on your server or not.
-
If unlagged assists aim so much, why couldn't you hit my mara? I consistently had 150+ hp after fighting your human!
You can talk, but if you can't support your statements in game, you ultimately fail.
-
I'm not going to become involved in this endless debate, but I'd like to address something I repeatedly see mentioned: being shot around corners. Wtf? That almost never happens...maybe once every 50 games, against someone with 250-300 ping. Not often enough to complain about.
And yes, I play unlagged more than enough to know. You guys are exaggerating the "problems" of unlagged way too much.
-
You can get used to high ping by leading shots etc.. but you can not prepare or avoid getting killed behind the wall you just dodged to. There is no "compensation" for that, unless you say camping fixes this problem. Also, high ping often gives you some sort of little advantage in dodging. Of course it all depends on the ping overall, how big the difference in ping is and how the server handles the load. Oh, and if you can kill a dretch with a md just by hitting the air left or right of it without actually hitting its center, that is lame. (Before you start bitching: I was playing the md)
The only alien class that seems to gain from unlagged is the goon -> human dodging problem with unlagged
-
If unlagged assists aim so much, why couldn't you hit my mara? I consistently had 150+ hp after fighting your human!
Because you fail to understand that because I do not play with Unlagged outside of MGdev, I adjust my aim to my ping, as I have done since I first started playing Quake on-line. I ping a good 150 to MGdev, so I lead my shots accordingly.
Sigh...
@Bissig: You quite hit the mark there. Whereas in the normal situation, one would only have to adjust his aiming to his own, hopefully consistent ping, with Unlagged, you have to look at the ping(s) of your opponent(s) and try to adjust your movement on that. I think the first is a lot easier to accomplish with a bit of training, whereas with the latter, it's outside of your control, and the only thing you can do is get annoyed.
-
Oh, and if you can kill a dretch with a md just by hitting the air left or right of it without actually hitting its center, that is lame.
That's a hit-box issue that's always been there and has no relation to unlagged. In 1.2 the model and hit-box are roughly the same size.
Stop inventing problems, it doesn't make us inclined to believe anything else you say.
-
I do not play with Unlagged outside of MGdev
Why do you bother commenting on something you obviously know very little about, then?
-
I do not play with Unlagged outside of MGdev
Why do you bother commenting on something you obviously know very little about, then?
Ever heard of a game called Quake III Arena? One time, someone made a mod for it, called Unlagged. Yes, really!
-
You can get used to high ping by leading shots etc.. but you can not prepare or avoid getting killed behind the wall you just dodged to.
You can, don't get seen. The only change is that you don't have the milliseconds of cover provided by the difference between your ping and your shooter's.
-
@Bissig: You quite hit the mark there. Whereas in the normal situation, one would only have to adjust his aiming to his own, hopefully consistent ping, with Unlagged, you have to look at the ping(s) of your opponent(s) and try to adjust your movement on that. I think the first is a lot easier to accomplish with a bit of training, whereas with the latter, it's outside of your control, and the only thing you can do is get annoyed.
Bullshit. You have to do a lot more compensation without Unlagged. In fact, that is established with the fact that people lead hitscan weapons.
Unlagged innately does all the calculations necessary to compensate for latency differences. That's the point of it.
-
Don't double-post. That qualifies as spam, iirc.
-
If unlagged assists aim so much, why couldn't you hit my mara? I consistently had 150+ hp after fighting your human!
Because you fail to understand that because I do not play with Unlagged outside of MGdev, I adjust my aim to my ping, as I have done since I first started playing Quake on-line. I ping a good 150 to MGdev, so I lead my shots accordingly.
If you cannot adapt quickly to silly old unlagged, and are forced out of habit to apply to same strategy (leading) to every situation you are presented with, perhaps (actually, quite obviously, judging by your in-game performance) you aren't quite as skilled as you think you are.
Playing with a high ping builds character. If you cannot handle a lousy 150ms latency, you just lack the proper skills.
Playing with unlagged builds character. If you cannot handle lousy unlagged, you just lack the proper skills, and hair.
-
@David
Oh, and if you can kill a dretch with a md just by hitting the air left or right of it without actually hitting its center, that is lame.
That's a hit-box issue that's always been there and has no relation to unlagged. In 1.2 the model and hit-box are roughly the same size.
Stop inventing problems, it doesn't make us inclined to believe anything else you say.
So, the hitbox of the dretch now expands one dretch size to the left and one dretch size to the right? Because that is the place where I have been hitting the dretches when we tested unlagged.
@Temple
You can get used to high ping by leading shots etc.. but you can not prepare or avoid getting killed behind the wall you just dodged to.
You can, don't get seen. The only change is that you don't have the milliseconds of cover provided by the difference between your ping and your shooter's.
Maybe I should just close my eyes and hope the aliens don't see me? Don't get seen is not an option in infights or in goon jumping range.
-
If you cannot adapt quickly to silly old unlagged, and are forced out of habit to apply to same strategy (leading) to every situation you are presented with, perhaps (actually, quite obviously, judging by your in-game performance) you aren't quite as skilled as you think you are.
I don't play any Quake games that use Unlagged, so there is no need to adapt to Unlagged. It would only screw up my aiming in the other games I play, and I rather not have that happen. Also, I like how you ignore my replies, since you obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.
Playing with unlagged builds character. If you cannot handle lousy unlagged, you just lack the proper skills, and hair.
Making silly remarks about my appearance accomplishes nothing but showcase your own lack of guts, since I still have yet to receive your portrait.
If Applejuice and St. Anger want some kind of personal intermezzo with me, I strongly suggest the two of you start a new thread, since I had intended to keep this thread free of the persona-directed nonsense you two are posting here. The discussion here is 'Unlagged', not 'Lava Croft and what Applejuice and St. Anger think about him'. If you have trouble separating these things, I am very willing to help you separate them.
Now, back to the Unlagged discussion.
Bullshit. You have to do a lot more compensation without Unlagged. In fact, that is established with the fact that people lead hitscan weapons.
Unlagged innately does all the calculations necessary to compensate for latency differences. That's the point of it.
Unlagged does not compensate for latency, it just moves the noticeable part of the latency to a different place, so to speak. Instead of you having to compensate for your own latency by leading your shots, your opponent will have to somehow compensate for your latency.
-
I don't play any Quake games that use Unlagged, so there is no need to adapt to Unlagged. It would only screw up my aiming in the other games I play, and I rather not have that happen. Also, I like how you ignore my replies, since you obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.
Why do you keep grouping us together? We are two different people...not everyone who posts against you conspires with each other. Paranoid, much?
I like you how DELETE my posts, rather than simply ignoring them. You obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey. To reiterate:
You yourself have just said that you don't play anything that uses Unlagged. Why are you posting about it, then, as if you have some secret knowledge of it we do not? You obviously don't have much experience with it. Do you bullshit this much in real life? I certainly hope not.
On topic: Most of the complaints in this thread rarely happen, in my experience. I've played hundreds of games of unlagged, and I am rarely shot around a corner, rarely hit from "halfway across the room" (not a comment from this thread, but a common complaint). I also almost never magically hit a dretch outside of its hitbox; I either hit it or I barely miss. The fact that I can barely miss a hitbox tells me that unlagged doesn't exactly "assist" my aim, since I still need to directly hit the target on my screen. Of course, if you play unlagged with 300 ping, you'll experience weird bugs like shooting a dretch a full model to the left/right, but then again...with 300 ping, what do you expect? Perfect gameplay?
When most players have under 200 ping (which is the case on most of the servers I play on), unlagged is optimal. I've played both lagged and unlagged for a while, and I find unlagged offers more challenging gameplay. Most unlagged dodges are extremely good in lagged, but the opposite is not true.
-
Why do you keep grouping us together? We are two different people...not everyone who posts against you conspires with each other. Paranoid, much?
Because whenever I reply to St. Anger, Applejuice replies, and whenever I reply to Applejuice, St. Anger replies. I'd almost think you two are a couple.
Look at the post above this one, and see how you are mixing up yourself with St. Anger. If you yourself are having trouble keeping yourself and St. Anger apart, how do you think other people will manage? Therefore, I quit making a distinction between the two of you, and I just named you St. Angerjuice.
I like you how DELETE my posts, rather than simply ignoring them. You obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.
Random image spam that is completely unrelated to the thread will get deleted, no matter who posts it.
You yourself have just said that you don't play anything that uses Unlagged. Why are you posting about it, then, as if you have some secret knowledge of it we do not? You obviously don't have much experience with it. Do you bullshit this much in real life? I certainly hope not.
The Unlagged used in Tremulous is the same Unlagged that is used in the well-known Quake3 mod. Since I have played a lot of Q3-Unlagged when it first came out, since I also thought it was a good solution to a age-old problem, I know very well how it plays and how it reacts to different situations. The only big difference in Tremulous is the obvious larger amount of melee combat. I already told you about Quake3 and Unlagged, but I guess you overlooked it.
When most players have under 200 ping (which is the case on most of the servers I play on), unlagged is optimal.
It still means that instead of you compensating for your own latency, your opponents will have to compensate for your latency, and you will have to compensate for theirs. I prefer to compensate for my own latency, instead of compensate for other people's latency.
Apart from that, the amount of compensation (read: leading your shots) required for a 150-200 ping is rather small.
-
Because whenever I reply to St. Anger, Applejuice replies, and whenever I reply to Applejuice, St. Anger replies. I'd almost think you two are a couple.
So anything foolish you say in response to others cannot be used by someone else against you? How convenient. Disagree.
The Unlagged used in Tremulous is the same Unlagged that is used in the well-known Quake3 mod. Since I have played a lot of Q3-Unlagged when it first came out, since I also thought it was a good solution to a age-old problem, I know very well how it plays and how it reacts to different situations. The only big difference in Tremulous is the obvious larger amount of melee combat. I already told you about Quake3 and Unlagged, but I guess you overlooked it.
You repeatedly switch from "I don't play unlagged" to "but I used to, and you should have known that." Make up your mind.
Apart from that, the amount of compensation (read: leading your shots) required for a 150-200 ping is rather small.
The same can be said of unlagged. The amount of compensation required for your opponent's latency - if any - is rather small. In fact, I usually don't bother looking at my opponent's ping, since it usually bears no important effect on my overall playstyle. If, in the rare case, a dragoon's range seems a *bit* long or wide, I press tab quickly and note its ping, and adjust accordingly. It requires absolutely no effort.
-
This compensation discussion is pointless. You have to lead with any weapon without Unlagged. You don't have to lead with hitscan weapons with Unlagged. That's it.
As for 'not being seen'....that means what it means. Smarmy comments aside, get your ass to cover. If you got shot, that means you weren't behind cover. The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner. You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough. Happens all the time. Just now, you don't have a lag created safety-net to dance around and dodge simply because the other guy has a higher ping.
Pro-tip: Don't stop moving. Once you get used to Unlagged, you should never stop moving until you are safe. You really should be playing this way in the first place. But due to differences in latency, you have been spoiled with being able to do last second, highly luck based, dodging that wouldn't cut it in optimal network situations. None of this new gameplay, it doesn't require compensation. It demands that players play well because hitscan weapons or attacks are less forgiving. It takes all of 1-2 games to adjust.
-
This compensation discussion is pointless. You have to lead with any weapon without Unlagged. You don't have to lead with hitscan weapons with Unlagged.
That's not it. Instead of leading your shots because you have to compensate for your own lag, you have to lead your movement in some way to compensate for other people's lag. That is what Unlagged does, move the latency away from the source (you with your high ping) towards your opponent (who now has to compensate for your high ping).
I fail to understand how this is an improvement over the default way handling latency.
This ties directly to the 'not being seen' subject. It's impossible to properly 'flee to safety' around a corner, since it's nigh impossible for you to gauge if your opponent is able to see you with his latency. This is (I think) what Bissig meant.
You have already been told a multitude of times how to compensate for your own latency in a normal game, yet nobody has told us how to compensate for our opponent's latency in a Unlagged game.
-
You have already been told a multitude of times how to compensate for your own latency in a normal game, yet nobody has told us how to compensate for our opponent's latency in a Unlagged game.
Probably because you rarely and if so, barely need to
-
its amazing that lava agrees with me
As for 'not being seen'....that means what it means. Smarmy comments aside, get your ass to cover. If you got shot, that means you weren't behind cover. The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner. You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough. Happens all the time. Just now, you don't have a lag created safety-net to dance around and dodge simply because the other guy has a higher ping.
tthe bullets might not actually curve but its the same effect the game shows that your around that corner but the guy shooting can still hit you. (sometimes he see's the same thing)
seriously its not hard to shoot ahead i know with a 200ping unlagged off i shoot 1.5 secs ahead roughly
and with 50 ping i shoot about 1/2 a sec ahead.
from what i understand it takes both shots timestamps and if your where the bullet lands anytime within those -+ a few frames more you get shot
why should skilled players have to suffer for some noob that wants to play with a high ping. it should be no unlagged aka the info the server has where you are at the time of the shot being acknowledged
also moving is common sense if you move more you have less chances of being hit
-
its amazing that lava agrees with me
As for 'not being seen'....that means what it means. Smarmy comments aside, get your ass to cover. If you got shot, that means you weren't behind cover. The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner. You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough. Happens all the time. Just now, you don't have a lag created safety-net to dance around and dodge simply because the other guy has a higher ping.
tthe bullets might not actually curve but its the same effect the game shows that your around that corner but the guy shooting can still hit you. (sometimes he see's the same thing)
seriously its not hard to shoot ahead i know with a 200ping unlagged off i shoot 1.5 secs ahead roughly
and with 50 ping i shoot about 1/2 a sec ahead.
from what i understand it takes both shots timestamps and if your where the bullet lands anytime within those -+ a few frames more you get shot
why should skilled players have to suffer for some noob that wants to play with a high ping. it should be no unlagged aka the info the server has where you are at the time of the shot being acknowledged
also moving is common sense if you move more you have less chances of being hit
Why should anyone have to shoot to ahead if the bullet travels at near instant speeds (theoretically) and there is code to ensure that?
The issue is that the bullet travels faster than you can move. So why should you be able to avoid it?
The bullet hits you because you were in plain view not because he was lagged.
Skill has absolutely nothing to do with it. What skill gives someone better ping?
-
When most players have under 200 ping (which is the case on most of the servers I play on), unlagged is optimal. I've played both lagged and unlagged for a while, and I find unlagged offers more challenging gameplay. Most unlagged dodges are extremely good in lagged, but the opposite is not true.
From unlagged_faq (http://alternatefire.planetquake.gamespy.com/unlagged_faq.html)
Personally, I believe there's hardly a problem when all the players in a game are pinging within 100ms of each other. That describes most casual and almost all competitive games.
The remaining casual games can handle a larger ping spread easily. It's the competitive games in which the ping spread is greater than 100ms that you start having fairness issues.
The author of Unlagged acknowledges there are fairness issues with high ping and unlagged. So Unlagged only makes sense in a low ping scenario, and then is the question how useful is it really in a low ping scenario.
The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner.
You clearly don't understand that this is a matter of perspective. How events are perceived by that attacker and by the target is different.
Unlagged only changes how the difference is being processed. Stop pretending there is only one perspective in internet gaming, there are different ones at each end of the network.
Its very logical that for one it seems that the attacker curved a bullet around the corner, and for the attacker it looks like a straight shot. Dont think latency has magically disapeared,
that is naive.
-
temple keeps overlooking the fact that instead of giving a player control over how to compensate for his own latency, Unlagged removes that control from the player, giving him a false sense of 'lag correction', and lets your opponent in the dark, figuring out how to compensate for your latency.
@SlackerLinux: It has little to with 'some noob that wants to play with a high ping', it has to do with how you would like latency to be handled. It's a preference. And while it's obvious how to compensate for latency in a normal game, it's not clear how to compensate for the same latency which is still present in a Unlagged game.
@Applejuice: The fact that I know and have played Unlagged years ago means that I know very well how it works. The fact that I don't like how it works and 'feels' means I don't want to adapt my playing style to it. Really, there are people who have actually played with Unlagged before it came to Tremulous.
[EDIT] Stop typing so fast, Eeeew Spiders.
-
The issue is that the bullet travels faster than you can move. So why should you be able to avoid it?
Don't fear the bullet, its the attacker you have to be afraid of. Its about
doing something about impending hitscan attacks
do you know what the word impending means? try to look it up before keep posting the same meaningless answer about outrunning a bullet.
Nobody claims to out run a bullet, please get that in your head. It's about basing your moves on how you see your opponent move.
Unlagged makes what you see obsolete. This has been acknowledged, part of the community sees it as a problem.
[edit] ok lava :) i appended
-
The only preference here is:
Do you prefer hitscan weapons (instant attacks) to hit instantly? Regardless of latency, an instant attack should be instant. The only issue is that people have the perception that they are moving faster than a bullet and are opposed to the game server correcting that.
It appears that, no, some people do not prefer for weapons to work as they are intended.
It's about basing your moves on how you see your opponent move.
Unlagged has nothing to do with what you are talking about. You can't see an instant attack. Thus, you can't avoid them. You are arguing against that fact.
-
Unlagged has nothing to do with what you are talking about. You can't see an instant attack. Thus, you can't avoid them. You are arguing against that fact.
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.)
So dear temple, what would the author of unlagged mean with that? seems to me you are arguing against the facts. Or maybe the author of Unlagged is wrong, could also be. The more reason to not be in favor of it.
The only preference here is:
Do you prefer hitscan weapons (instant attacks) to hit instantly?
No, this is the only preference you can think off, dont talk on my behalf please.
-
That depends on whether or not you're the kind of player that actually does something about impending hitscan attacks. (Most casual players really don't.)
That's vague. What is the point of your using it? How does that argue against Unlagged?
Don't make the discussion oblique because you don't like the obvious points I've made.
Unlagged is not a 'style'. Its not a fashion. We aren't talking about automatic transmission versus driving stick. Unlagged corrects an inconsistency with an intended feature and its implementation. There is no 'preference'. Either weapons behave correctly or they don't.
-
temple, Unlagged does not 'correct' anything. It merely moves the latency around to another 'place'. If you have no idea what Unlagged actually does, it might be best if you quit posting the same nonsense over and over. Whereas Eeeew Spiders constantly links you to the docs that accompany Unlagged, which are written by the creator of Unlagged, you do nothing but reply with the same nonsense over and over, not bringing up any valid points at all.
This is doing no good for your own status, nor is it doing any good for people trying to defend Unlagged's way of handling latency.
-
temple, Unlagged does not 'correct' anything. It merely moves the latency around to another 'place'. If you have no idea what Unlagged actually does, it might be best if you quit posting the same nonsense over and over. Whereas Eeeew Spiders constantly links you to the docs that accompany Unlagged, which are written by the creator of Unlagged, you do nothing but reply with the same nonsense over and over, not bringing up any valid points at all.
This is doing no good for your own status, nor is it doing any good for people trying to defend Unlagged's way of handling latency.
You can't argue successfully against Unlagged, now you are arguing against me.
All Unlagged does is rewind and check. Do not obscure the arguments by saying it moves latency. Unlagged does not affect latency in any shape. The players' latency are independent of Unlagged.
Where is latency moved? Don't make up something, explain to me using Unlagged, where the latency goes. I don't have to prove you wrong, you will prove yourself wrong when you try to defend what you are saying.
-
temple, do you seriously think that Unlagged removes the latency?
-
temple, do you seriously think that Unlagged removes the latency?
No.
All Unlagged does is rewind and check, technically speaking.
Unlagged makes instant attacks instant, in practice.
-
Unlagged moves latency away from you, towards your attacker. Instead of you having to compensate for your own lag, your attacker will have compensate for your lag. This is how Unlagged works, I can't help it. But, since all you do is stare blindly at the 'my attacks are instant' mantra, you completely overlook what's really happening.
Even when presented with clear facts, written by the creator of Unlagged, you still dismiss everything brought up here, only to keep on staring blindly at your 'my attacks are instant' mantra.
I'll quit talking to you now, since you obviously don't really seem to have any idea what you are talking about.
-
Unlagged moves latency away from you, towards your attacker. Instead of you having to compensate for your own lag, your attacker will have compensate for your lag. This is how Unlagged works, I can't help it. But, since all you do is stare blindly at the 'my attacks are instant' mantra, you completely overlook what's really happening.
Even when presented with clear facts, written by the creator of Unlagged, you still dismiss everything brought up here, only to keep on staring blindly at your 'my attacks are instant' mantra.
I'll quit talking to you now, since you obviously don't really seem to have any idea what you are talking about.
Unlagged doesn't change latency at all. It's pretty silly to think that the game engine is going to change latency in the first place. You are inventing effects of Unlagged, nothing of such actually happens like that in the engine.
But compensation argument is dumb and I already covered that. The attacker is going to hit if they fired when you were at the spot. If you want to get specific, they will hit if you were at that spot during a specific window of time.
But I can break this apart even better:
Assuming that the 'attacker' is the one firing the hitscan weapon:
If your (hitscan) attack is aimed at a target,
and Unlagged rewinds the target's position in the buffer/frame/whatever,
checks to see if the target was where you aimed,
then correctly awards the hit....
why are you leading (compensating) in the first place?
This is independent of your or the target's latency.
Before anyone asks, the attack has to be fired with a specific time frame to be relevant to the Unlagged check. You can't be lagged to a slideshow and pick targets off at your leisure. It's not bullet time.
-
I think the problem is how do you react to what you see an opponent doing.
Example:
If the opponent in your view is with his back to you, and unhelmeted and you're a dretch you can sneak up, even in a reasonably long, no cover hallway. He however turns and shoots you with that md he was carrying while you haven't seen him turn and shoot yet.
So instead of choosing dodging approach if you knew he was turned, you continue with shortest route to target because his back was turned. You feel like you've missed something which could have saved your neck, if dretches have one.
Short:
Unlagged checks attacks, not perception and decisions based on those observations.
-
I think the problem is how do you react to what you see an opponent doing.
Stop trying to outrun bullets. Behave as if you can be shot. What do soldiers do during a firefight? This is not rocket science.
I'll leave this alone. I'm being argumentative for other's sake so they aren't swayed by opinion without knowing the rationale and implementation of Unlagged.
-
Stop trying to outrun bullets. Behave as if you can be shot. What do soldiers do during a firefight? This is not rocket science.
You didn't even bother to take the example for what it is, and the example is there to clearly illustrate the problem.
In the example the dretch isn't outrunning bullets, he is approaching an enemy. As such it closes the gap as fast as possible because your opponent might turn, and it starts dodging when he starts turning because of danger.
There is the disconnect which plagues unlagged. According to your theory tremmers should never change tactics either, no matter what actions or strategy they observe from their opponent.
And your analogy to soldiers during a firefight is incorrect in that they actually do have lightspeed observation, hence no lag, and certainly no possibility for unlagged and its problems. You don't see them continuously weaving their hummers over the road, afraid of an rpg round being dead on which they didn't see coming because of unlagged. They check for locations through observations, which are nearly instant in the real world.
Apparently for you this is rocketscience as I could also argue the implementation of unlagged within the lagged environment designed 1.1 damagemodel is detrimental to a point as well but that's a different discussion. 1.2 should fix this since its damagemodel is adjusted for unlagged.
-
Stop trying to outrun bullets. Behave as if you can be shot. What do soldiers do during a firefight? This is not rocket science.
You didn't even bother to take the example for what it is, and the example is there to clearly illustrate the problem.
In the example the dretch isn't outrunning bullets, he is approaching an enemy. As such it closes the gap as fast as possible because your opponent might turn, and it starts dodging when he starts turning because of danger.
There is the disconnect which plagues unlagged. According to your theory tremmers should never change tactics either, no matter what actions or strategy they observe from their opponent.
And your analogy to soldiers during a firefight is incorrect in that they actually do have lightspeed observation, hence no lag, and certainly no possibility for unlagged and its problems. You don't see them continuously weaving their hummers over the road, afraid of an rpg round being dead on which they didn't see coming because of unlagged. They check for locations through observations, which are nearly instant in the real world.
Apparently for you this is rocketscience as I could also argue the implementation of unlagged within the lagged environment designed 1.1 damagemodel is detrimental to a point as well but that's a different discussion. 1.2 should fix this since its damagemodel is adjusted for unlagged.
The soldiers don't have lightspeed reflexes. For that matter, the hand can move faster than the eye, does your hand move at light speed?
Don't use hypothetical soldier scenarios, that's wasn't the point of my example. I'm alluding to the use of cover and movement by trained soldiers and not relying on reflexes. Soldiers don't have the luxury of jumping out the way of bullets but they manage.
Dretches have to use cover and stealth. Any dretch running straight up to a human risks being shot. Are you opposing that? Maybe this is rocket science, lol!
And for the record, I play with Unlagged all the time and I can kill rifles, shotguns, or MDs with a dretch. You just have to hustle. You don't have that lag buffer of protection anymore.
-
Survivor, just give up. You are trying to convince a religious person that his god does not exist. It's futile.
-
Against lava's perfect judgment in this case;
The soldiers don't have lightspeed reflexes. For that matter, the hand can move faster than the eye, does your hand move at light speed?
Neither do gamers, yet there is an added delay of perception in unlagged, and unlagged only checks weapon hits, not movement.
Don't use hypothetical soldier scenarios, that's wasn't the point of my example. I'm alluding to the use of cover and movement and not reflexes.
You started with the soldier, and cover and movement surely apply, but soldiers also want to get to places quick to strike at enemies, and guess what, that's just like players in trem.
Dretches have to use cover and stealth. Any dretch running straight up to a human risks being shot. Are you opposing that? Maybe this is rocket science, lol!
Any dretch closing the distance to an opponent as fast as possible from the human's blind spot is practicing good sense since the maps aren't large nor abundantly covered with hiding places.
But apparently you are mixing experiences up and are so pro-unlagged that you can't see the problems it has. I can live with unlagged if it has an adjusted damagemodel which softens the shock of these situations since it surely is a noble cause. But to fight for it as a perfect solution is folly.
Good luck to you in entering a real discussion. Now I will follow Lava's advise.
-
Survivor, just give up. You are trying to convince a religious person that his god does not exist. It's futile.
Nice strawman. This isn't even personal.
You just wrong on this and still haven't explained where the latency is moved as you claim. Does Unlagged make the attacker 'lag'? Care to comment anything on my breakdown of what happens?
Neither do gamers, yet there is an added delay of perception in unlagged, and unlagged only checks weapon hits, not movement.
If there was a 'delay in perception' (there isn't), it would exist in Unlagged AND without Unlagged. But there is no delay, you just made that up. It just a matter of trying to see what you can't see, trying to dodge what you can't dodge.
-
This has nothing to do with a personal matter, but everything with you being presented facts as written by the Unlagged creator, situations as explained by Survivor, yet all you do is re-post the same stuff without even taking into account the facts and examples as they are presented to you.
The latency is moved away from you, towards your opponent. I think I must have typed this like 10 times by now, but I guess I'll just have to go against my own better judgement and type it again:
In a normal, non-Unlagged game, the latency is where it's supposed to be, on your side. You have to compensate for your own latency by leading your shots.
In a Unlagged game, the latency is moved towards your opponent, as the example Survivor gave you more than clearly explains. You have to compensate for the latency of your opponent in Unlagged, instead of compensate for your own latency. I can't think of any simpler way to explain this than the example given by Survivor.
As has been stated before, not one of the two options is 'better' or 'worse', it's a pure case of preference. However, constantly ignoring the facts and examples you are being given does not magically make your preference the more sane one.
-
This has nothing to do with a personal matter, but everything with you being presented facts as written by the Unlagged creator, situations as explained by Survivor, yet all you do is re-post the same stuff without even taking into account the facts and examples as they are presented to you.
The latency is moved away from you, towards your opponent. I think I must have typed this like 10 times by now, but I guess I'll just have to go against my own better judgement and type it again:
In a normal, non-Unlagged game, the latency is where it's supposed to be, on your side. You have to compensate for your own latency by leading your shots.
In a Unlagged game, the latency is moved towards your opponent, as the example Survivor gave you more than clearly explains. You have to compensate for the latency of your opponent in Unlagged, instead of compensate for your own latency. I can't think of any simpler way to explain this than the example given by Survivor.
As has been stated before, not one of the two options is 'better' or 'worse', it's a pure case of preference. However, constantly ignoring the facts and examples you are being given does not magically make your preference the more sane one.
Simply, your idea or model of Unlagged is wrong. Use a scenario to explain it. I've used one to explain why I am right about Unlagged and why you are not. But from what you have said, you are wrong about how the feature works. No attacker has to lead a hitscan weapon. There is not additional burden, no change in how you attack. If you think so, you are completely mistaken. Wrong wrong wrong. You are arguing from an entirely faulty premise.
Edit: If the attacker is a dretch, you have to move the same as before. Your enemy will move and aim at the exact same speed as before. If you are behind them, you are still behind them. If you are moving away from their line of sight, you are still evading them. But you don't have those fractions of seconds anymore to complete your dodging. If those bullets start flying, you better pray the human has missed. Because you can't move out the way of bullets, you can only move out the player's aim. The player's motion and aiming is the same in either model.
Survivor is arguing that Unlagged is unfair from the prospective a dretch trying to anticpate a human's action. But in either hit detection scheme, the dretch is equally vulnerable to getting shot before they can react.
The only reason this (the dretch not being able to move in time) feels unfair is because vanilla Tremulous did not have the ability register hitscan attacks as accurately as Unlagged. Unlagged IS fair, vanilla Tremulous was unfair if fairness is even worthy of arguing here (it's not).
Players are feeling the consequences for being open to attack more often. In some cases, they are killed when they *think* they were safe. But in concept, they were not safe. Unlagged just brings the actual gameplay closer the conceptual premises of the game.
-
I think Survivor gave you a perfect example, only you blatantly ignored it. The fact that you just do not want to accept it, is a problem that is beyond my reach.
-
I think Survivor gave you a perfect example, only you blatantly ignored it. The fact that you just do not want to accept it, is a problem that is beyond my reach.
In Survivor's example, Unlagged is no different than without.
-
I think Survivor gave you a perfect example, only you blatantly ignored it. The fact that you just do not want to accept it, is a problem that is beyond my reach.
In Survivor's example, Unlagged is no different than without.
Then my statement stands, and you do not know what we are discussing.
-
*I* think you guys are either exaggerating the problems of unlagged, or play with very high pings. Survivor's example has never happened to me in my year of playing with unlagged. The others have, but only very rarely. I usually play with people with less than 120 ping (most of them have less than 100), though, so I can't speak for those who only play with high pings. I can say, though, that unlagged has made <100 ping games more enjoyable, and more challenging.
If, in fact, these observations ARE all based on high-ping games, then that is a different debate (one that I won't involve myself in, since it doesn't affect me). And before you say "IF YOU DON'T PLAY WITH AT LEAST 150 PING YOU ARE A NOOB," why do we have to? If the opportunity to play with good ping exists, most people would take it.
-
These 'problems' of Unlagged (which actually aren't really problems, just a different approach at solving a problem) are at the core of how Unlagged works. While you might not notice these problems that much when playing Unlagged, someone who is used to playing normal games barely notices how he is leading his shots. It's a case of perception. Survivor's example was merely a futile attempt and trying to make someone see what happens with the latency in Unlagged.
-
My example is an extreme, but clear example of what exactly is happening.
Unlagged can and only does check shots. It does not adjust movement.
Now in a range vs range game like most shooters this isn't as important. But guess what, in tremulous a single team relies on getting into touchy-touchy range to get kills and hits. Which puts them at a disadvantage. My example simply exagerates the effect unlagged has on such a situation to make it clear for temple. The principle however applies to more general situations as well, sometimes with just as drastic results from the perception pov.
Namely 'I got hit while I was behind the corner', if you overexagerate the situation we get the following, i kept the numbers simple.
Alien player, ping 50
Human player, ping 550, lasgun
According to this the human player has half a second delay.
Now to the situation. The alien player sees he is low on health, just a few lasgun shots away.
He rounds the corner, thinks himself safe, and stops to regenerate from the 15 hp he has left. Why? The human was quite far away and probably won't follow.
However the human has 500 millisecond longer with an instahit weapon with a shotdelay of 200 ms and 9 dmg per hit. In other words he is able to do 18 more damage, and the alien dies around the corner. Yes, unlagged was correct, the alien was in view for that time and got hit. But you can't tell me that's the honest perception of both players.
Now this one isn't decision based, and the actual hp-rule under retreating for aliens has been adjusted upwards by most experienced players if they are playing unlagged to correct for it.
But this also means that the human was able to deal 18 more damage than he used to in lagged when the alien first came into view, compared to the alien, who is still relying on getting close and then having the unlagged system check their hits.
Now let's mirror the situation. The alien rounds the corner. He used to have 500 ms before the human player saw him and could start firing. Now he is still rounding the corner at his same perception, but due to unlagged the lagged player gets 500 ms extra to fire, which suddenly get lumped at the low-ping player. This shows the perception pov better. While most players think it is weird that they die around a corner and notice that, most wouldn't have noticed that in this extreme example they at this point had to bear a triple damage hit. You're not watching th hp going in. So their longetivity in the battlefield decreases. And this is why the alien team is at a disadvantage, he has to take more damage than was planned under the lagged gaming conditions of beta-testing trem.
This is more related to the imperfect combination of 1.1 damagemodel and unlagged.
And with this I have given examples for the two major reasons people are wary of unlagged.
Once again note that my examples are certain exagerations. But they are not unimportant in that they do happen to some extent, people just don't notice it as much as it is not as odd as a round the corner death.
-
I have played more than a year with lagged, it sucked. Back then you could go into any server and there would always be players scoring much higher than everyone else, and they would always have < 40 ping. I had to adjust to aim.
With unlagged, I don't care what people are saying, you don't have to adjust to shit. I play against St Anger the same way I play against a 258 pinger, and I also dodge the same way.
This "gives humans an advantage" stuff is wrong. It improves the tyrant/goon to the point where only the elite can manage to dodge a decent goon. As for dretching, stay the heck out of the sights of hitscan weapons.
I don't experience most of these "problems" other than around-the-corner shooting, but I like that feature. I would much rather the shooter hit what he aimed at on his screen, than have the dodger escape due to ping difference.
It is a different game to play, I agree, but I prefer unlagged, as I feel the playing field is much more level than without it. The game also is more intense, as you really have to try hard to dodge, whereas in lagged you can casually press random keys and get the job done most of the time. Point blank shotgun shots hit, as they *should* in my opinion.
As for high pingers fucking you up, there's a console command to keep them the fuck out, and I do love it.
However, I sincerely hope that 1.2 does *not* make unlagged a standard feature, and that we may continue to have it as a mod. Obviously some are opposed to it, and it's better to let everyone play the way he/she enjoys the game the best.
Edit, A note from St. OzzyJuice.: We don't get hit around corners because we don't run away, we get our kill or die (we don't die, btw). l2p
Couldn't resist.
-
I find it rather amusing that Lava, Survivor, and Temple think arguing about a single feature is worth their time. You each have one of three opinions: Like, Dislike, or Ambivalent. Simply state your opinion and your reason for having that opinion. There is no need to start a flamewar simply because someone's opinion differs from your own. A polite debate, by all means, but not what is currently transpiring here.
In the eyes of some, particularly those with high pings, Unlagged is a godsend. In the eyes of others, particularly those with low pings, it is an encumbrance — mainly because it takes away their unfair advantage over the former category.
-
I have played more than a year with lagged, it sucked. Back then you could go into any server and there would always be players scoring much higher than everyone else, and they would always have < 40 ping. I had to adjust to aim.
That's the world with ping, but there were also people having up to 120 ping who could best them, and in q3, a game just as intense with both players having long range weapons I know a player who played for years with 150 ping and got to own with it. It is this adjustments which is necessary with lagged, but it doesn't mean it's the way it should be. If everything was in a perfect world everybody had the same 0 ping. Unlagged goes some way to fix this, but the problem with unlagged is that it fixes the problem, but not the tuning that was done to the damagemodel of 1.1.0 trem to make the game 'work' in lagged. 1.2.0 fixes this tuning as well and as such provides a much better unlagged experience. Try it out for yourself on the testservers.
With unlagged, I don't care what people are saying, you don't have to adjust to shit. I play against St Anger the same way I play against a 258 pinger, and I also dodge the same way.
Playing against St Anger means shit to me as for me he IS a 250 pinger. If you would have kept to the debate and discussed in ping and stated 40 pinger that would be much more logical. But I get your point.
This "gives humans an advantage" stuff is wrong. It improves the tyrant/goon to the point where only the elite can manage to dodge a decent goon. As for dretching, stay the heck out of the sights of hitscan weapons.
Oh, so suddenly it's the other way around? Sure once they get in range they have a higher probability to hit since they don't need to compensate for ping anymore, but to get in range they have to suffer some more damage on occasion. And if you didn't see them coming unlagged advantage for humans is up anyway. This is also why the 400 health and 200/250 health dragoon are at a great advantage compared to the dretch, basilisks and maybe the marauders. They have more health to waste.
And btw, the common rifle is hitscan so your advice means playing like the way i most like to play, hide and seek. But unfortunately some maps just aren't made for it, this is also why a lot of long-time players hate the boredom of atcs. You can't do many tricks there. Although 1.2 fixes the fun with the squash.
I don't experience most of these "problems" other than around-the-corner shooting, but I like that feature. I would much rather the shooter hit what he aimed at on his screen, than have the dodger escape due to ping difference.
Yes, you do experience them, you just don't notice them because your mind is somewhere else, in the attack pattern. Most prominent example would probably be the atcs campers again. Because it's such a common occurence i can say you must have been in an atcs camping game as a large alien, headed into the lower corridor and just see your health go away chunks at a time. That effect didn't used to be as profound when the game was lagged.
It is a different game to play, I agree, but I prefer unlagged, as I feel the playing field is much more level than without it. The game also is more intense, as you really have to try hard to dodge, whereas in lagged you can casually press random keys and get the job done most of the time. Point blank shotgun shots hit, as they *should* in my opinion.
What is called more level? Anyone with the skill to aim precisely in unlagged is able to compensate in lagged up to 100 ping easily. That it is more intense I can agree on, but that this is less in skill than in mindgames, the unpredictable player owns the dodge while the excellent predictor can beat it. Tbh i have noticed some strange shit with shotgun blasts which should have hit dretches but didn't, i leave that to the coders as i have no explanation for it but it could just happen.
As for high pingers fucking you up, there's a console command to keep them the fuck out, and I do love it.
Guess what, authority lies with server admins. And removing high-pingers in any way is against your idea of a level playing field in unlagged isn't it?
However, I sincerely hope that 1.2 does *not* make unlagged a standard feature, and that we may continue to have it as a mod. Obviously some are opposed to it, and it's better to let everyone play the way he/she enjoys the game the best.
As far as I know 1.2 has unlagged as a standard feature, but at least it has retuned the damage model to make it feel better. Thus it isn't bad perse since it removes the advantage the sudden introduction gave to ranged weapons. I can live with unlagged in that form.
__________________________________
I find it rather amusing that Lava, Survivor, and Temple think arguing about a single feature is worth their time. You each have one of three opinions: Like, Dislike, or Ambivalent. Simply state your opinion and your reason for having that opinion. There is no need to start a flamewar simply because someone's opinion differs from your own. A polite debate, by all means, but not what is currently transpiring here.
In the eyes of some, particularly those with high pings, Unlagged is a godsend. In the eyes of others, particularly those with low pings, it is an encumbrance — mainly because it takes away their unfair advantage over the former category.
We have each stated our opinion and are having a discussion, as happens when opinions differ. Where you see the flamewar is beyond my view.
I don't care about high and low ping btw because both problems also have an influence on even-pinged players, it just happens to be more profound in high ping differences. I care about an upset damage model in 1.1 and a mindgame which was removed from my repetoire of moves. To the repetoire i can adapt, to the other i refuse to since that in itself is a problem. Coming 1.2 however that one is fixed.
-
--- snip ---
Dretches have to use cover and stealth. Any dretch running straight up to a human risks being shot. Are you opposing that? Maybe this is rocket science, lol!
--- snip ---
You really only pick out what you want to read, don't you?
A COMMON principle for aliens is to SNEAK UP to someones back. I fail to see how you are unable to distinguish what Survivor said to the opposite of running UP FRONT to a human. You are ridiculous.
-
I find it rather amusing that Lava, Survivor, and Temple think arguing about a single feature is worth their time. You each have one of three opinions: Like, Dislike, or Ambivalent. Simply state your opinion and your reason for having that opinion. There is no need to start a flamewar simply because someone's opinion differs from your own. A polite debate, by all means, but not what is currently transpiring here.
In the eyes of some, particularly those with high pings, Unlagged is a godsend. In the eyes of others, particularly those with low pings, it is an encumbrance — mainly because it takes away their unfair advantage over the former category.
Unlagged is an improvement. Period. The only opinion or preference is 'I like hitscan weapons to hit instantly' or 'I don't'.
This is like the Evolution vs Intelligent Design debate in the US. There is no theory of Intelligent Design. The whole 'opinions' argument about Unlagged is teaching the controversy. Unlagged is better, that's it. Whether or not you want to play a game with broken weapons, that's up to you. But there is no doubt that Unlagged makes weapons do what they are supposed to.
You really only pick out what you want to read, don't you?
A COMMON principle for aliens is to SNEAK UP to someones back. I fail to see how you are unable to distinguish what Survivor said to the opposite of running UP FRONT to a human. You are ridiculous.
I've said over and over, the dretch is equally able to dodge or anticipate movement in regular Tremulous or Unlagged. Unlagged does not make anyone move or aim faster. The bullets move faster in that they hit where the guy aimed. But if the guy turns around and shoots you, that has nothing to do with Unlagged.
The fact of the matter is that if you do get killed, you are more likely to blame it on Unlagged and not on the fact that you got seen.
-
I know a player who played for years with 150 ping and got to own with it.
I don't believe it should take years to master pointing a mouse cursor at an alien, when low pingers can do it in a couple weeks is all.
Oh, so suddenly it's the other way around? Sure once they get in range they have a higher probability to hit since they don't need to compensate for ping anymore, but to get in range they have to suffer some more damage on occasion.
True, but they should suffer damage to get in range, because isn't the whole advantage of the human team the ability to hit from a range? Also, pounce and charge can usually close the gap pretty quickly.
see your health go away chunks at a time. That effect didn't used to be as profound when the game was lagged.
I'm not sure what this means, but it sounds like "people missed more" which I didn't like.
What is called more level? Anyone with the skill to aim precisely in unlagged is able to compensate in lagged up to 100 ping easily
Yes, you can compensate, but with unlagged no compensation is necessary.
Guess what, authority lies with server admins. And removing high-pingers in any way is against your idea of a level playing field in unlagged isn't it?
No, I'm talking about balance in gameplay, not about fairness to those less fortunate in having decent internet, though that would be nice to consider.
-
Now let's mirror the situation. The alien rounds the corner. He used to have 500 ms before the human player saw him and could start firing. Now he is still rounding the corner at his same perception, but due to unlagged the lagged player gets 500 ms extra to fire, which suddenly get lumped at the low-ping player. This shows the perception pov better. While most players think it is weird that they die around a corner and notice that, most wouldn't have noticed that in this extreme example they at this point had to bear a triple damage hit. You're not watching th hp going in. So their longetivity in the battlefield decreases. And this is why the alien team is at a disadvantage, he has to take more damage than was planned under the lagged gaming conditions of beta-testing trem.
This is more related to the imperfect combination of 1.1 damagemodel and unlagged.
And with this I have given examples for the two major reasons people are wary of unlagged.
Once again note that my examples are certain exagerations. But they are not unimportant in that they do happen to some extent, people just don't notice it as much as it is not as odd as a round the corner death.
your second example is not only false, but it demonstrates a situation where the higher ping player has a disadvantage you can't compensate for by leading your target (even if you do it perfectly), and unlagged somewhat evens it out (though "evening it out" results in the much hated first example)
-
You have a better understanding of the unlagged code than me kevlar. But as I understand the principle of unlagged it means that in the incoming case the lagged player still gets some leeway in getting an extra hit in where it wasn't experienced in the beta testing of a lagged tremulous? This is the damagemodel tuning at fault, not unlagged in coding itself.
However, my discussion with temple is over. Seriously man, read what I type, don't skim over it and just react to everything that offends you. Sentences, like ideas, only work because everything should complement each other. When I state the problem with unlagged this does not mean it is bad in itself. It just still has unresolved (dmg tuning) or unresolvable (observational) flaws. Is it that hard to get?
I don't believe it should take years to master pointing a mouse cursor at an alien, when low pingers can do it in a couple weeks is all.
But isn't the problem with lag that you're not aiming it at where you see the alien but where he actually is heading in the alien's case? It takes some skill to master lagged of course. And extremes are harder to master.
True, but they should suffer damage to get in range, because isn't the whole advantage of the human team the ability to hit from a range? Also, pounce and charge can usually close the gap pretty quickly.
Yes, but in this extreme case they get hits extra. Hits which were not experienced in the lagged inception of tremulous origins. In other words, hits were tacked on while the dmg model wasn't designed with that in mind. And like i said, 1.2 fixes this.
I'm not sure what this means, but it sounds like "people missed more" which I didn't like.
More like people's reaction is more instantanteous now, while there still isn't always the health to compensate, like i demonstrate with the hp difference.
Yes, you can compensate, but with unlagged no compensation is necessary.
True, true. No compensation except prediction.
No, I'm talking about balance in gameplay, not about fairness to those less fortunate in having decent internet, though that would be nice to consider.
If this is your view than correlate this sentence with unlagged making high-pingers even to low-pingers, because if that is the case you don't need to keep them the fuck out, like you stated.
As for high pingers fucking you up, there's a console command to keep them the fuck out, and I do love it.
-
You have a better understanding of the unlagged code than me kevlar. But as I understand the principle of unlagged it means that in the incoming case the lagged player still gets some leeway in getting an extra hit in where it wasn't experienced in the beta testing of a lagged tremulous? This is the damagemodel tuning at fault, not unlagged in coding itself.
However, my discussion with temple is over. Seriously man, read what I type, don't skim over it and just react to everything that offends you. Sentences, like ideas, only work because everything should complement each other. When I state the problem with unlagged this does not mean it is bad in itself. It just still has unresolved (dmg tuning) or unresolvable (observational) flaws. Is it that hard to get?
It can be over. You are wrong. I don't mean that in a disdainful way. But you don't get it.
I teach networking and programming. But I'm trying avoid bringing techno-lingo into the discussion because that would limit who can participate.
The way a game engine works is it sends snapshots of the game to each player. We call these snapshots Frames. Your ping is basically the speed at which you can receive those frames. While playing, you are constantly receiving frames. So, a player with around 0-30 ping is going to be seeing frames pretty much a the rate that the game engine can produce them. All game engines have around 30 ms of latency simply due to processing data and sending it. So its impossible for anyone to have a perfect 0 ping (unless they are running some space age super computer).
But since the game is constantly changing, your frames can be out of sync. This means that the events in the games have changed since the last frame. So you can be looking something that has already moved. This is why you have to lead with hitscan weapons.
All Unlagged does is rewind back to the frame in which someone fires a hitscan attack and checks to see if an enemy was there. It corrects (yes Lava) what is happening.
So in your scenario:
Dretch with 50 ms ping
Rifleman with 550 ping.
Frame 1, the Rifleman see the dretch and fires
Frame 2, the Dretch has already moved and the Rifleman as moved
Frame 3, the game engine (with Unlagged) realizes that the Rifleman did in fact get a hit
Frame 4, the Dretch dies
The reason for the delay is that Rifleman send his data later. But Unlagged remembers what happens and corrects. Without Unlagged, the Rifleman would be firing at Frame 1 but by the time the game engine gets the 'attack' message and checks for a hit, the Dretch is already at Frame 2 or 3.
But in reality, if Rifleman is lagged that much, he wouldn't be registering hits anyway because of internal cut-offs to the Unlagged rewinding. Unlagged doesn't remember and check shots fired from too long in the past. So if the Rifleman is just seeing Frame 1 and lets say that the Dretch is already at Frame 4, that difference in time could be too large to be considered by the hit detection. Unlagged doesn't award every hit because it would overpowered for a player that is moving too slow. That cut-off point can be set by global variables and can be tailored by individual servers.
-
ping is delay, not speed, in receiving/sending, or more generally, the transmitting of data from the server compared to the processing timestamp on the server.
And your example is stating what unlagged does and how it affects hits. That is okay, I know that since I understand that is exactly what unlagged does.
But it doesn't take into account decisions by human players. What you are forgetting that besides the processing that occurs by the server and the player computers, processing of the situation also occurs in the player's brain, this processing is done by the information they have available to them. As the high pinger's transmitting of view direction to the server is delayed, and thus received later at the incoming player who would have started dodging if he knew the high pinger was doing that at that time. But he has to wait. Unlagged does and cannot compensate for this. There is no way to predict forward, only check backward.
And now it's really over. This wasn't about the code of unlagged. It does exactly what it was intended to do. It was about the interaction of this unlagged code with a damage model which was tuned for lagged and its interaction with human decision-making based on flawed situational awareness.
-
I only mean that there is slim to no gap between 10 and 200 pingers, it is with 300+ pingers that unlagged cannot help and *those* are the ones a server should exclude for gameplay purposes.
self-edited to fix crappy and confusing grammar
-
--- snip ---
So in your scenario:
Dretch with 50 ms ping
Rifleman with 550 ping.
Frame 1, the Rifleman see the dretch and fires
Frame 2, the Dretch has already moved and the Rifleman as moved
Frame 3, the game engine (with Unlagged) realizes that the Rifleman did in fact get a hit
Frame 4, the Dretch dies
The reason for the delay is that Rifleman send his data later. But Unlagged remembers what happens and corrects. Without Unlagged, the Rifleman would be firing at Frame 1 but by the time the game engine gets the 'attack' message and checks for a hit, the Dretch is already at Frame 2 or 3.
But in reality, if Rifleman is lagged that much, he wouldn't be registering hits anyway because of internal cut-offs to the Unlagged rewinding. Unlagged doesn't remember and check shots fired from too long in the past. So if the Rifleman is just seeing Frame 1 and lets say that the Dretch is already at Frame 4, that difference in time could be too large to be considered by the hit detection. Unlagged doesn't award every hit because it would overpowered for a player that is moving too slow. That cut-off point can be set by global variables and can be tailored by individual servers.
Thanks! For the first time you back your posts with actually useful information. As Survivor points out though, this somewhat "technocratic" explanation and viewpoint of the server still stands in opposition to how the player perceives it:
The rifler seems to have missed the dretch. The dretch thinks it got away. After, lets say 300ms suddenly the rifler gets a kill and the credit reward. The player playing the dretch wonders how the hell he go hit and why he is dead now. So, theory vs. practice. As usual - the gap is not fixable.
And as someone stated: Unlagged doesn't change much when all players have low ping. It only makes a real difference in high ping environments.. and that is were it actually FAILS (from the players point - not the server engines point of course).
@Moderators:
The poll seems somewhat broken.
It looks like this:
Question: Unlagged (Voting closes: 10-08-2008, 14:20:48)
is a solution
is a problem
is irrelevant
No radio buttons, no vote button. Nada.
-
I don't play any Quake games that use Unlagged, so there is no need to adapt to Unlagged. It would only screw up my aiming in the other games I play, and I rather not have that happen. Also, I like how you ignore my replies, since you obviously must have seen the stupidity in your posts here, cutey.
I guess you just lack the proper skills to be able to adjust between the two, how unfortunate. And no I haven't ignored any of your replies.
Playing with unlagged builds character. If you cannot handle lousy unlagged, you just lack the proper skills, and hair.
Making silly remarks about my appearance accomplishes nothing but showcase your own lack of guts, since I still have yet to receive your portrait.
I find it interesting that you only replied to my comment about your hair. Butthurt much? Next time try responding to the actual content and not the closing insult.
-
And as someone stated: Unlagged doesn't change much when all players have low ping. It only makes a real difference in high ping environments.. and that is were it actually FAILS (from the players point - not the server engines point of course).
Well, as Ozzy previously stated, unlagged does eliminate the need for aiming compensation whatsoever in relatively low-ping games, which is a good benefit.
/agree with it failing at high pings (read: 250+), though I usually avoid playing with high pingers.
-
in a gun vs gun battle i agree unlagged is probably more fair but tremulous isnt a gun vs gun battle aliens cant shoot from a distance hell they cant even dodge the bullets because what they see happening what the server knows whats happening and sending to them is all thrown out the window and replaced with what happened 2-3 frames back or more. sure if this was a gun vs gun fight both ppl will have the same disadvantages and advantages more or less but aliens have to be able to dodge to get close enough to swipe their opponent (who sadly on servers i play at never leave base :( ). even the server sees your out of the way. your client sees your outa the way of the bullets. the only guy who doesnt see your outa the way of the bullets is the guy who is either too stingy to pay 4 cable or lives 1/2 a world away.
not to mention the hitboxes are oversized for most things and its ok in a lagged enviroment but with unlagged its just another issue. human hitboxes are not bad but some of the alien ones are really bad (dretches especially).
im lucky all my servers are now lagged and i get to play in a more fair environment where players get sent the info the server has and every shot is judged on the same information w/out any modification.
-
I still believe that unlagged benefits the aliens far more than it does the humans, though in my first few months after switching I thought otherwise.
As common as the "you shot me around a wall" is the "that goon bit me with its ass" and I suggest everyone watch a few matches with some of the good goons to prove this to themselves: they can take down three shotguns in a row if you aren't careful.
-
You have a better understanding of the unlagged code than me kevlar. But as I understand the principle of unlagged it means that in the incoming case the lagged player still gets some leeway in getting an extra hit in where it wasn't experienced in the beta testing of a lagged tremulous? This is the damagemodel tuning at fault, not unlagged in coding itself.
the time at which the shot would land is unchanged, only if it would land. all the previous requirements for taking that shot are still there, including being alive from the server's point of view (not the shooter's point of view). so there is no way for 3 shots to land instantly just because a player has 500 ping (in fact your numbers are off because 500 is the round trip time, it only takes 250ms for the command to fire to get to the server). when a low ping player comes around a corner, the high ping player would normally have 250ms where they can't hit him, they can't compensate for their lag by leading because they have no way of knowing he is there. unlagged gives them that 250ms back if and only if they are still alive, when the low ping player goes behind the corner again and they have 250ms to fire at them that they wouldn't have had otherwise.
-
in fact your numbers are off because 500 is the round trip time, it only takes 250ms for the command to fire to get to the server.
Ping is the time for a roundtrip, but wouldnt Unlagged still have to roll back 500ms?
Since it is 250 ms that it took the server to receive the client packet, plus 250 ms delay in the client's view of what happend on the server.
So the clients packet containing the shot data is 500ms late compared to the information the server had send out to that client about it's target.
This is not a statement, but a question.
Your ping is basically the speed at which you can receive those frames. While playing, you are constantly receiving frames. So, a player with around 0-30 ping is going to be seeing frames pretty much a the rate that the game engine can produce them.
A high ping client receives the packages in the same rate than a low ping client. They are just received with a delay. Ping is the delay, not the rate (frequency).
(Though when further away, due to rerouting or net disturbances, the packages may be received out of order. Out of order packages will be dropped, since the protocol is UDP based. This can cause jitter => warping).
edit: me and my constant editing, i should stop that, sorry!
-
in fact your numbers are off because 500 is the round trip time, it only takes 250ms for the command to fire to get to the server.
Ping is the time for a roundtrip, but wouldnt Unlagged still have to roll back 500ms?
Since it is 250 ms that it took the server to receive the client packet, plus 250 ms delay in the client's view of what happend on the server.
So the clients packet containing the shot data is 500ms late compared to the information the server had send out to that client about it's target.
This is not a statement, but a question.
you're right, that's what i get for posting while i'm tired.
-
Your ping is basically the speed at which you can receive those frames. While playing, you are constantly receiving frames. So, a player with around 0-30 ping is going to be seeing frames pretty much a the rate that the game engine can produce them.
A high ping client receives the packages in the same rate than a low ping client. They are just received with a delay. Ping is the delay, not the rate (frequency).
(Though when further away, due to rerouting or net disturbances, the packages may be received out of order. Out of order packages will be dropped, since the protocol is UDP based. This can cause jitter => warping).
edit: me and my constant editing, i should stop that, sorry!
You win the cookie!
-
This was mentioned above, but, nice poll. At least I know how I voted. On purpose?
-
I'm happy to see the flaming and personal whining is kept to a minimum and we actually have a 4-page thread with some decent discussion about Unlagged, it's workings and it's perceived effects. You people almost make me proud by keeping your cool. This goes for both 'sides' in this debate!
@St. Anger: If you feel you lack in arguments and have to make up for it by commenting on someones physical appearance, that is your problem, not anyone Else's.
-
I only got to page 3 but what i saw was...
Temple stating your point over and over again without regarding what others are saying doesn't make you right.
st. angerjuice seems to have a problem with lava croft.
Lava croft and survivor have waaaay too much patience. Bravo, but some people just won't even try to see things your way.
Now then on to my 0.02 euro cents.
I don't like unlagged, I haven't since it was first discussed and tested for tremulous (via irc). I find adding another variable (in the opponents perceived movements) just messes up my game.
I'd also like to add that I usually play with 90-100 ping and have no problem(I actually represent one? of the few undefeated clans in Europe) playing against other people in the 0 - 130 ping range. Since going much above that will likely result in some of the adverse effects mentioned here in an unlagged game I see no reason to play with unlagged.
-
I only got to page 3 but what i saw was...
Temple stating your point over and over again without regarding what others are saying doesn't make you right.
st. angerjuice seems to have a problem with lava croft.
Lava croft and survivor have waaaay too much patience. Bravo, but some people just won't even try to see things your way.
Now then on to my 0.02 euro cents.
I don't like unlagged, I haven't since it was first discussed and tested for tremulous (via irc). I find adding another variable (in the opponents perceived movements) just messes up my game.
I'd also like to add that I usually play with 90-100 ping and have no problem(I actually represent one? of the few undefeated clans in Europe) playing against other people in the 0 - 130 ping range. Since going much above that will likely result in some of the adverse effects mentioned here in an unlagged game I see no reason to play with unlagged.
You should probably read page 3, and think of your own insults while you do so. People have already responded to your comments.
-
i still think that EU should do lagged an Us should do unlagged.
there is no need to make a gap between us.
noone can explain the US players well enough that if they want to hit a dretch in a normal game, they have to aim approx a meter and a half ahead of them, because it's clarly a nonsesne.
and vica versa.
-
You just specify the gap you do not want us to create. This thread was meant to close that gap and create more understanding for and from both sides, while eliminating the nonsense that's said about and by both sides. This does not create a gap, it closes it, hopefully.
This has nothing to do with people being American or European, don't forget that the person who is mainly responsible for the new balance changes, as well as allowing Unlagged to be implemented, was killing Aliens and eating Spawns long before any of you heard about a class-based teamplay Aliens vs. Humans FPS, and he was doing so without Unlagged. He is also very American. It's a personal preference, not a preference based on location.
-
So players used to lagged servers prefer lagged and players used to unlagged servers prefer unlagged. On both systems players have to live with some inconsistencies (having to lead your aim vs. being shot around a corner).
The problem is that the players used to lagged servers automatically try to compensate for the flaws of the system even when they play on unlagged servers and vice versa. So they generally play worse than they are used to, and consequently avoid the other type of servers.
Now what would happen if the unlagged flag is made into a per-client variable ?
The server could calculate the shot of temple at the time he pressed the trigger and the shot of lava at the time the servers receives the packet. Then they could play on the same server aiming like they are used to, they would still suffer from the being shot around the corner problem while any unlagged player is in the game, but at least they could have a match without one player at a big disavantage because he has to adjust his aim to the unknown style.
-
So players used to lagged servers prefer lagged and players used to unlagged servers prefer unlagged. On both systems players have to live with some inconsistencies (having to lead your aim vs. being shot around a corner).
The problem is that the players used to lagged servers automatically try to compensate for the flaws of the system even when they play on unlagged servers and vice versa. So they generally play worse than they are used to, and consequently avoid the other type of servers.
Now what would happen if the unlagged flag is made into a per-client variable ?
The server could calculate the shot of temple at the time he pressed the trigger and the shot of lava at the time the servers receives the packet. Then they could play on the same server aiming like they are used to, they would still suffer from the being shot around the corner problem while any unlagged player is in the game, but at least they could have a match without one player at a big disavantage because he has to adjust his aim to the unknown style.
Yeah, I wish.
That isn't possible to my knowledge. But if it was, players wouldn't want it. The Unlagged players would outperform the lagged players.
-
Unlagged vs. Lagged
vi vs. emacs
My Linux distro vs. your distro
C vs. FORTRASH vs. Paskull vs. Ada vs. C++ vs. Perl vs. TECO vs. LISP vs. Python
ITS vs. Unix vs. Mac vs. MS-D.. eh never mind
-
Now what would happen if the unlagged flag is made into a per-client variable ?
Not bad, but make it so that it only sets whether or not your position is being rolled back for other clients, not if their position will be rolled back for you.
just joking ofcourse :D
Or an alternative Unlagged suggestion, make hitbox size dependent on ping, not to be taken serious either.
A somewhat more serious approach to unlagged is to move the hit detection to the client of the target. This would mean that latency involved in hit detection is
equalized between the two affected clients. It is as hard for a high pinger to hit a low pinger than for the lowpinger to hit the high pinger.
But this would mean net traffic load and client processing load that is not feasible with standard equipment, complete rewrite of the q3 engine and clients, as well as opening whole new doors to modding clients for cheats (god mode, manipulating hitbox sizes etc etc).
Nah, its better to leave that bit of calculating to the server.
-
So players used to lagged servers prefer lagged and players used to unlagged servers prefer unlagged.
Not that this is particularly relevant to the debate, but remember that some of us played a long time (well, a year and a half anyway, in my case) before unlagged was around. I was well-accustomed to lagged and yet made the switch when the other American clans started using unlagged for scrims. We found it canceled a lot of the home-field advantage that was created by clans normally pinging better to their own servers.
The problem is that the players used to lagged servers automatically try to compensate for the flaws of the system even when they play on unlagged servers and vice versa. So they generally play worse than they are used to, and consequently avoid the other type of servers.
At the time unlagged was first tested on my favorite server, I had mixed feelings about it. The clan I led was very divided in opinion as well. However, the consensus was always that unlagged helped you play better unless you had low ping to begin with. The debate of course was whether this was a good thing.
As far as moving from lagged to unlagged, I never had any trouble and in fact, in the early days, my clan would practice on lagged for a few days, then switch to unlagged again. I don't know if it really made our aim better or it just felt like it did, but suddenly hitting your shots was a big confidence boost.
-
I understand that you can switch from lagged to unlagged and adjust your aim quickly. But reading the posts from Lava, i get the impression that not all players have this skill, and so I was thinking about a technical solution that would allow him to play on an unlagged server, but still use his accustomed mode of leading his shots.
Would this technically work ?
-> I think yes.
Would this be balanced ?
-> Probably not. Being able to shoot at your opponent after he fled around a corner is more useful than being able to shoot him before he enters your fov, unless you have a wallhack.
Would Lava play better on this server than on a pure unlagged server ?
-> Well, I can't say for sure, but I think yes. It would not be like playing lagged vs. lagged, but he would hit when he thinks he should hit whereas now he hits when he thinks he should miss.
I know this is all just speculation and it's by far not a finished idea. Maybe it can be improved. That's why I posted it.
-
Being able to shoot at your opponent after he fled around a corner is more useful than being able to shoot him before he enters your fov, unless you have a wallhack.
You don't shoot them before they enter your FOV, you shoot them before you enter theirs. You see them a few milliseconds before they see you, due to ping differences, and can shoot them sooner. They, on the other hand, still see you a few milliseconds after you no longer see them, thus allowing the around-the-corner stunt. And believe me, it only takes a good pair of rifles those few milliseconds to drop your ass on-the-spot if you just wildly hop around the corner.
Also, I don't hear too many players complaining about not being able to hit their shots because they don't have to lead; I always thought the main problem players had with unlagged was that others *did* hit their shots, when normally they wouldn't. Am I wrong here?
Thus, even if I liked the lagged style, I wouldn't want to be using it against the "improved" unlagged aim.
-
But reading the posts from Lava, i get the impression that not all players have this skill
Wrong. It has little to do with a lack of skill, but all the more with a lack of motivation, when there is no clear reason to do so. This thread failed at changing my mind either, although I quietly had hoped different.
Letting clients choose if they use Unlagged or not, seperate from the global server settings, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard concerning Unlagged. Either enforce it on all clients or do not enforce it at all. Selective use of Unlagged by clients will only lead to exactly what Unlagged claims to combat, a unbalance in the playing field.
-
This thread was a triumph!
I'm making a post here:
"HUGE SUCCESS!!"
It's hard to out-debate
the other faction.
Tremulous Servers:
We choose what we trust
because we can.
For the good of all of us.
Except the ones who are lagged.
But there's no sense crying
over unlagged's mistakes.
You just keep on trying
till it's all you can take.
And the arguing gets done,
Though debates cannot be won
with the people who aren't
yet unlagged.
I'm not even lagging...
I'm being so sincere right now-
Even though you shot me around
the corner.
And shot me to pieces.
Before I could even see you fire.
As I died it hurt because
You were so laggy it's true!
Now, these points we're debating
make a beautiful line.
And the 1.2 creators say
It's unlagged next time!
So I'm glad we all learned-
Think of all the skills we earned-
from the people who aren't
yet unlagged.
Go ahead and hate me...
I think I'd prefer to stay unlagged...
Maybe you'll find somewhere else
to play without it?
Maybe on SatGNU?
That was a joke! HAHA!! FAT CHANCE!!
Anyway this game is great!
It is so balanced and fun!
Look at me: still posting
when I should be owning noobs!
When I look at Europe,
it makes me glad I'm not you.
I've afraid I have to run.
There are games to play for fun.
with the people who are
All Unlagged.
And believe me I am
still Unlagged.
I'm doing fine now and I'm
still Unlagged.
I feel fantastic and I'm
still Unlagged.
While trem's dying I'll be
still Unlagged.
And when 1.2's out I'll be
still Unlagged.
Still Unlagged.
Still Unlagged.
Inspired by Lava Croft's Companion Cube signature. Yes, I know, I have no life. But I have trem <3 (http://satgnu.net/upload/lava/emot-cubeglomp.gif).
For those who didn't play Portal, my song is based on http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI&feature=related
-
You don't shoot them before they enter your FOV, you shoot them before you enter theirs. You see them a few milliseconds before they see you, due to ping differences, and can shoot them sooner. They, on the other hand, still see you a few milliseconds after you no longer see them, thus allowing the around-the-corner stunt. And believe me, it only takes a good pair of rifles those few milliseconds to drop your ass on-the-spot if you just wildly hop around the corner.
I must have misunderstood something then. I thought what you see on the screen is exactly the same whether you play unlagged or not. Only the hit-test of your gun is different.
Wrong. It has little to do with a lack of skill, but all the more with a lack of motivation, when there is no clear reason to do so. This thread failed at changing my mind either, although I quietly had hoped different.
I didn't mean to say that you lack skill in playing Tremulous, but was talking about the ability to change from one style to the other, which KamikOzzy claimed to have whereas you said that you had problems hitting St. Anger on an unlagged server, so I guessed that you don't have that skill (the lack of motivation would be a good explanation why this is so).
Letting clients choose if they use Unlagged or not, seperate from the global server settings, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard concerning Unlagged. Either enforce it on all clients or do not enforce it at all. Selective use of Unlagged by clients will only lead to exactly what Unlagged claims to combat, a unbalance in the playing field.
I don't see how this is an unbalance, as any player can choose whatever mode he plays better in. If I can score more kills in lagged mode than in unlagged mode, even vs. unlagged opponents, then I don't see how it helps the balance when I'm forced to switch to unlagged too.
If unlagged mode gives the player an advantage, I can understand that unlagged mode would be disabled on a lagged server, but why not allow lagged mode on an unlagged server ? If the advantage is real most players will be using unlagged anyway.
Anyway, I have no problem with the current situation, so we can just forget this idea.
-
...
Most awesome post ever.
We need to make a "post of the month" award or something.
-
haha, thanks :D
-
Ozzy gets a +10 for making a awesome variation of one of the best computergame songs of the past 5 years, belonging to the best computergame ending in the past 10 years.
-
Hahahahaha. I love how you converted "And when you're dead" to "And when 1.2's out."
-
All the same isn't it ;P
-
I'll just go out of my way and say that every gamer with a bit of self-respect left in his guts should have beaten Portal at least once.
And we are still Lagged, mind you.
-
Ozzy gets a +10 for making a awesome variation of one of the best computergame songs of the past 5 years, belonging to the best computergame ending in the past 10 years.
Thats not even all of it, he busted out ts and recorded it. Its hilarious. I'm sure he'll upload it later. Don't think he'll let me.
Btw he used a voice converter.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TSP393KT
-
Aha you posted it. You bastard >.>
-
It's ok. You have a sexy voice. :D
-
epic win
now let me find a bass guitar :-D
-
epic win
now let me find a bass guitar :-D
Please do.
I'd love to hear a version with the portal music. =D
-
My honest opinion is that unlagged is part of the solution. However, it is neither the only solution, nor a complete solution by itself.
Also, can unlagged be added to the Tremulous forum's spell check dictionary? It's annoying when in a discussion about unlagged and clicking the spell-check button highlights a dozen or more references. Then again, I only had 3.
-
Aha you posted it. You bastard >.>
Its great
I love it :-)
-
In short:
you can control the fact that you have to lead your aim,
you can not control the fact that someone shoots you around the corner.
-
Have you ever been shot around a corner?
I only play on unlagged servers, and its only happened to me once.
Most of you refuse to play on unlagged servers, so I'm going to bet are just spreading FUD.
-
Being shot around a corner happen on lagged servers just as it happens on unlagged server, and as David said, only rarely occurs.
Since there is an obvious disagreement on whether unlagged should be used or not, at least add a column to the server browser that indicates whether a server has it enabled, disabled or limited to X milliseconds.
-
I only play on unlagged servers, and its only happened to me once.
and considering that you normally play with 150 ping, it's at least as likely to have been prediction as it was unlagged. (it's happened twice to me, and only one was unlagged, and i've been playing on only unlagged servers since i helped make it work on trem)
-
Have you ever been shot around a corner?
I guess you must have some problem with your eyes.
Getting shot around the corner happens more often and the effect is much more visible in a Unlagged game. It happens in just about every Unlagged game I play or spectate, no matter how exotic this situation may be according to other people.
Yes, it also happens in normal games, but less often and the effect is barely noticeable.
While this may not annoy some people, it does annoy the hell out of others. The fact that you barely notice it or do not find it annoying does not mean others experience it the same. Other people do notice it, and do find it very annoying.
-
Have you ever been shot around a corner?
I guess you must have some problem with your eyes.
Getting shot around the corner happens more often and the effect is much more visible in a Unlagged game. It happens in just about every Unlagged game I play or spectate, no matter how exotic this situation may be according to other people.
Yes, it also happens in normal games, but less often and the effect is barely noticeable.
While this may not annoy some people, it does annoy the hell out of others. The fact that you barely notice it or do not find it annoying does not mean others experience it the same. Other people do notice it, and do find it very annoying.
In that case I must have a problem with my eyes as well, along with the majority of unlagged players. I've hardly ever seen anybody get shot from around a corner in my 1 year of playing unlagged in Tremulous.
-
Getting shot after going around a corner is STILL a sign that unlagged is simply helping people who can't play with a high ping, which is one of its functions. If you get shot around a corner and you're pissed about it, don't complain and try to say that it's something that is a "problem" with unlagged that should be fixed because it can't be. It's fully ping related to the enemy who shot you. So blame it on ping and ping only, but not because of unlagged doing its job. I will agree, it does LOOK bad, but so doesn't an ugly high ping.
-
i wish there was a enough normal servers so that everone could play on one and still have <100 ping then we wouldn't need unlagged but because that isn't the case we need unlagged.
-
Have you ever been shot around a corner?
I only play on unlagged servers, and its only happened to me once.
Most of you refuse to play on unlagged servers, so I'm going to bet are just spreading FUD.
FunZone runs unlagged, I usually die slightly after I see the enemy has missed me.
I play with a ping of around 15-20ms and sometimes I feel like a bullseye for higher pingers.
So it's not the actual 'beeing shot around the corner' it's more like beeing shot when you know
you aren't.
-
You don't understand, Ingar. These people do not notice it, therefore you must be making it up. No matter what valid argument you might bring up against Unlagged, it will always be dismissed as a figment of your imagination, and an exaggerated one at that.
-
Unlagged sux.. it should be as a separate game, so Tremulous players would not join unlagged servers by accident...
-
You don't understand, Ingar. These people do not notice it, therefore you must be making it up. No matter what valid argument you might bring up against Unlagged, it will always be dismissed as a figment of your imagination, and an exaggerated one at that.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I thought you didn't like that? (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8751.msg135663#msg135663)
Where have I said its an exaggerated figment of your imagination? Where have you been accused of lying?
I have no problems playing with unlagged, you do, so either we can try to work out why so we can fix it, or you can continue arguing for the sake of arguing.
-
sigh, two pages back we were so much further, and now it's back to this.
I sometimes feel that threads should be limited to 3 pages, cause after that, no one will read them all, and they will add the same statements again that were on page 1.
So the next 4 pages will contain a lot of meaningless gurgles piling up over the good written and well thought posts on the previous pages, making these good statements hard to find and the thread a waste.
-
Then please summarize the good posts, or at least link us back to where you thought we went awry.
-
Then please summarize the good posts, or at least link us back to where you thought we went awry.
I think it was good until the very end of page 3.
Everything was explained then, nothing left out, both sides were understood,
All has been said, there is nothing to add really, except maybe some rhymes here and there.
My fav quote remains :P
this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8712.msg134807#msg134807).
There's a quote that goes something along the lines of, it's not the answer, but it raises some interesting questions.
some random quotes (not quite random, as i am biased :D)
- In my personal opinion, if you don't want unlagged turned on, then don't turn it on. But don't expect anyone who isn't on the same network to have a fun time playing there.
- There is no right or wrong in my opinion about Unlagged, but there is a preference.
- The only preference here is: Do you prefer hitscan weapons (instant attacks) to hit instantly? Regardless of latency, an instant attack should be instant.
- The bullet hits you because you were in plain view not because he was lagged.
- overlooking the fact that instead of giving a player control over how to compensate for his own latency, Unlagged removes that control from the player
- All Unlagged does is make near instant projectiles actually hit instantly. If instant weapons do not function like this, then the netcode is broken.
- Unlagged innately does all the calculations necessary to compensate for latency differences. That's the point of it.
- Unlagged is not a god given super solution to answer the problem of latency, it just handles packages differently.
- Lag is something that a great deal of effort was taken to remove.
- Unlagged doesn't fix latency. It does not remove latency from the game, it shifts the latency around (from the high ping shooter to the target)
- The players' latency are independent of Unlagged. Where is latency moved?
- Unlagged checks attacks, not perception and decisions based on those observations. Examples: here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8712.msg134930#msg134930) and there (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8712.msg134930#msg134930)
- Can you outrun a bullet?
- Can you shoot me when I see you aiming in a total different direction?
- [...]this is a matter of perspective. How events are perceived by that attacker and by the target is different.
- With unlagged the game is not WYSIWYG, its not what you see. Its what the other high ping client saw.
- The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner. You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough.
- Neither of you are wrong, it's all based on your perspective.
- Well, if you get killed, know to expect that the attacker will turn and fire at you, because from his perspective he already has.
- My honest opinion is that unlagged is part of the solution. However, it is neither the only solution, nor a complete solution by itself.
- 1.2 should fix this since its damagemodel is adjusted for unlagged.
- just asking to keep both playstyles in mind when balancing.
-
Why don'T you make some "test" about changing unlagged on servers without telling... or lieing about it?
let's say, Lava can turn on unlagged on Satgnu, and he can record all the rants, or to see if people realise that it is changed at all.
or some can write on american servers that its temporary playing lagged, but for real, it woud not. or reverse.
i think getting some proofs in game on servers what are the "cornerstones" of one side could be funny, and more convincing.
-
There is NO "instant" whatsoever in unlagged. It is technically impossible to make things hit instantly unless your ping is 0, and nobody is going to get that happening for everyone in a server in Tremulous. I guess you really COULD say there is a sense of instant, because as soon as you shoot dead on at your target with a hitscan weapon with unlagged on, you instantly seal the deal that you will hit them, but that's for later when the shot actually connects. There is absolutely no actual instant-hit in Tremulous without 0 ping, and the same is true with ANYTHING over the internet, because it's simply impossible by our current tech.
-
Tell that to temple, Dracone!
-
Meh, honestly that was more of an "information for all" post. From what I've read from people, being uncomfortable with unlagged and having complaints to give about it comes from either not knowing how it works or simply disliking the fact that it does, in all truth, substitute certain things that are good about lagged with the unlagged versions. The best example is probably that unlagged does lack the skill of predicting WHEN to shoot. But it is wrong to say that it totally takes out prediction skills altogether, since you still have to predict WHERE to shoot. It's just that unlagged allows that to be more impulsive than thought out as can be seen often in lagged.
As for not knowing enough about it, that is understandable. Not everyone is into looking up the tech of unlagged and figuring out what it does. Hell, I only know as much as I do about it from experience and tidbits of tech info I've coincidentally come across. BUT, this does NOT give you the right to say ANYTHING bad about it except that you simply do not like playing with unlagged. So if you honestly do not know really anything about how it works, hold off with the attempts at intelligent complaints, and just put it the way you know it really is -- you just don't like it.
I'd say it just comes down to people needing to keep it simple. This thread's NAME is all you need to have for an opinion on unlagged. Do you like it or do you not? Stop fighting over it using stupid arguements about the tech because if you try to do that against unlagged, it's like saying, "I hate it for doing its job."
I doubt that it will stop but hey, the internet has become a tool for arguing among other things, so why not make this thread go to page 100?
-
it's like saying, "I hate it for doing its job."
I hate to be rolled back :P
As for not knowing enough about it, that is understandable. Not everyone is into looking up the tech of unlagged and figuring out what it does
Most people with sensitive posts on both sides of the argument seem to have a pretty clear understanding how Unlagged technically works.
The only point where people differ is the interpretation of side effects and whether or not those are good/bad/(un)significant.
The quoted unlagged faq is a pretty accurate description and not at all difficult to understand.
BUT, this does NOT give you the right to say ANYTHING bad about it except that you simply do not like playing with unlagged. So if you honestly do not know really anything about how it works, hold off with the attempts at intelligent complaints, and just put it the way you know it really is -- you just don't like it.
Quite wrong actually, in addition to saying that you don't like it, it is legit to add information about why you don't like it and what it is you don't like about it.
-
I really don't know, what is fun on unlagged off if player does not have ping 0. Shooting in front enemy moving (distance depend on ping)? That is fun? I trying time to time play with unlagged off, SST for example, but when I have tyrant (ping about 200) and enemy is naked human, and I cant hit him, I can closely followed him but not hit (he running straight, I am closely after him, can't be closer because I already touching his ass, attacking and nothing happen) - that is stupid. He does not need attack me, he can bring only grenade, nade my base and then he can walk away and laugh in my tyrant face.
Weird is that on SST are often 80% players with similar ping like me, and they probably thinking that gameplay is normal.
No fun at all. (tyrant is for nothing, only marauder zap and adv goon barbs can do aomething. Humans weapons have delay, can't hit anything, even big tyrant ass, MD is totally useless, only luci do something or you can shoot to floor and hope that some dretch appear there)
Don't know how others, but want hit enemy and not compute where I probably can hit him and aim in his path (empty place), not exactly on him.
Another example - I think Wine Bar server. I joined humans, run in middle atcs and there was dretch that start followed me, in stright line. I shoot out whole rifle magazine exactly into dretch body, and dretch nothing! In reload time I was killed by him. They changed unlagged from ON to OFF. Unplayable.
Another example - Harves Unlimited server (there is very bad ping). ATCS, humans lose, in human base was 4 tyrants and one blaster man. Human survived 30 seconds in base and he only running around. They can't hit him.
I playing only on unlagged servers, because even with ping 50 on unlagged off its unfair. I cannot see any fun when I biting/shooting someone but nothing happen, nobody is hurt, dretch headshot never happen, only when human stand on one place 10 seconds.
With unlagged is practically impossible like human avoid dragon pounce, but I can live with that, because I know - when I shoot at that dragoon, he will be hit, regardless to my ping, his ping, someone else ping or whatever.
That is my opinion and presence my bad english. I hope I can sometime understand how much fun gain playes with ping 200 on unlagged off servers with 1 kill after 30 minutes gameplay.
-
Face it, lagged WILL make your aim better. But, there's people who either live somewhere where they can only get dialup, or wireless broadband (same as regular broadband, just more expensive and +200ms ping usually. :D). There's also people like me, who have wrist problems, and can't move as freely as you ''lagged stars'' (or however you shall put it). Unlagged is a vital part of tying the seperate communities of this game together instead of having them sit on servers where they are -- hell, they might live somewhere and have absolutely no servers nearby -- the lowest pinging server being 150, or even more! Think about that. Having unlagged as a choice makes this game much more diverse.
-
Archangel: how it make my aim better? Like aimbot? No, unlagged off make my "aim" worst. And it is not AIM, its HIT. I can have aimbot with unlagged off, that mean 100% right aim, and I will hit nothing.
Its not about aiming. I can perfectly aim with unlagged, and all is ok. I can perfectly aim with unlagged off, and cant hit anything. So when I shoot and hit what I see (what I aiming), that mean - unlagged helping me with aim? How I can better aim when already aiming at enemy body? If you mean that predicting enemy move, then you have right, but that is not game, but madness.
Or unlagged make my hit better when everybody will have ping 0?
-
1. He means that that having to predict makes you better at aiming in general.
2. Aimbots do not have 100% accuracy. In fact, there are players who aim better than aimbots, like Snake and Effect. But aimbots for Trem are actually very shitty, and an absolute waste of time to get, since they have something closer to only 60% accuracy.
3. If you can barely speak ANY proper English then you should be much more careful in reading posts made in the language.
-
If predicting means better aiming, then ok. But that is not for me. I want shoot what I see... And if I want to predict, then I buy luci :-) And I don't know what aimbots you saw, but they are 100% accurate - atleast that stupid aimbots what are easily discovered.
-
Unlagged - Yes.
Khalsa
-
Archangel: how it make my aim better? Like aimbot? No, unlagged off make my "aim" worst. And it is not AIM, its HIT. I can have aimbot with unlagged off, that mean 100% right aim, and I will hit nothing.
Its not about aiming. I can perfectly aim with unlagged, and all is ok. I can perfectly aim with unlagged off, and cant hit anything. So when I shoot and hit what I see (what I aiming), that mean - unlagged helping me with aim? How I can better aim when already aiming at enemy body? If you mean that predicting enemy move, then you have right, but that is not game, but madness.
Or unlagged make my hit better when everybody will have ping 0?
I said lagged makes your aim better.
-
I said lagged makes your aim better.
Hmm, that is probably reason why I have on unlagged off servers 0 kills ;)
-
I said lagged makes your aim better.
Hmm, that is probably reason why I have on unlagged off servers 0 kills ;)
He said, if you learn to kill plenty with Unlagged off, you will kill even more with Unlaged on ;)
-
there is one think that i totally don't understand.
i played months with unlagged on USA servers because i didn't know what PING is for.
then i went to eu servers, realising that what i've done was totally unplayable.
so...
if your ping is so bad that it needs unlagged to treat with it, your game experience is so miseraby awful, that it doesn't even worth to play, because you are basically watching a power point presentation of the buttons you pressed a long time before.
considering this, i think of...:
whining about unlagged is "unfair" because high ping players own you like hell is totally irrevelant, because they already have a huge disadvantage. maybe they can shoot you(assuming that they can shoot something that they don't even know where it is/was), but their dodge ability, what is probably the most important factor in Tremulous is desperately decreased.
so pointing on someone who aims "cool" when its obvious that he receives less data of your position seems to be nonsense.
if this thread is for the better understanding of unlagged, let someone tell me what is the exact ping difference when unlagged is becoming necessary. because 20-100 ping is naturally playable. from like 130, it's getting really annoying, and from 160, it's not worthing the waste of the bandwith. ofc its my subjective experience...
bold question is the most interesting i think...
-
I often play with 150~200 fine. Its more playable than 50 with no unlagged.
-
50 ping equals next to no lag, so how Unlagged with 200 ping plays better is beyond me, but then again, I am not completely biased like David.
-
Unlagged - Yes. It's useful for some people, not so useful for others. Don't use it if you don't want to. If you do, then by all means, use it.
-
Here is a better idea, why not just force a static ping? I know that this will most likely get flamed but think about it, if the server forces everyones ping(some method of packet delay?) to never go below 100, problem solved. That way, 10-50 pingers are equal to those of 100-130. :|
-
I like this!
Normalize the ping to 100. There still is client predict though, which might go nuts.
-
Having a high ping in unlagged still puts you off on a couple disadvantages. Your shots/attacks still connect late so low pingers can beat you to the punch, but also, because movement is not affected at all by unlagged, aliens can be difficult to play sometimes because pouncing and other such movements still feel rather slow with a high ping, as it always would with unlagged or not and a high ping. You still get the fair chance to hit something when you get to that point, but mobility is something aliens rely on heavily, obviously, and a high ping will always hinder it, unlagged or not.
-
At SST they have been doing balance tests for the last week for Tremcentral and among other things they turned on unlagged here is what we all (well most of us) agreed on:
If you are not dretch or granger and the humans are half good you are toast
You can quote me
-
SST is a 'special' case.
-
No one should play with more than 125 ping. NEVER. Unlagged is great for people with 50 ping, it shines for people with 70 ping, it's better than nothing up to 100 ping, and it's crap above 125, as it's crap to play without unlagged above 125. In short, if you don't get below 125 then just DON'T JOIN THAT SERVER. And if everyone is below, unlagged is good.
-
My lowest ping server is around 220 ping, I usually play at around 270 ping. I can't live without unlagged :)
-
nice necro jal
i have played lagged and unlagged both with 40 ping 200 ping and 300 ping unlagged in any case causes impossible things to happen in whatever ping you have
lets let this thread die in piece there's been enough discussion and points raised and its clear the community's split down the middle on the subject
-
Yes, split between Quakers and the rest of the FPS people.
-
Yes, split between Quakers and the rest of the FPS people.
I'd bet I've played as much, if not more, Quake 2 & 3 than anyone else in here ;) And I'm totally in favor of antilag, because ET has opened my eyes to how good it can be when done well.
-
Me big nub, me no read-read topics and stickies, you explain me, Hendrich what difference between lagged and un-lagged, booga booga, pata-pata-pata-PON!
(http://www.impulsegrafix.com/video_anim/images/th/th_caveman.jpg)
Lol, just pulling your Tyrant-claws, but heres a good explination of what lag means by Risujin:
Balance servers are unlagged (with the notable exception of [T] Balance).
The way it works is as follows. Suppose you are pinging a nasty 300 ms.
1.) You see a dretch, who pings at 50 ms, aim AT the dretch and fire.
2.) 300 ms later, your "shot message" arrives at the server. By now the dretch has moved out of the way in those 300 ms! Oh noes, you're gonna miss right? On a normal server, yes, but with unlagged...
3.) The server has been keeping track of where all of the players are for the past second or so. It rewinds to the game position 300 ms ago *just for your hit check*! It figures out you actually fired when the dretch was under your crosshair and voila, you just whacked a dretch. Seems great, doesn't it? Well not entirely, what does the dretch see?
4.) When you were pressing your mouse button to fire, the dretch saw you and scampered off ... he doesn't see you firing because even the server doesn't know you fired until 300 ms after you click.
5.) Now 300 ms after you clicked, the server registers a hit and sends the dretch a message saying that he's actually dead.
6.) 350 ms after the click, the dretch is running merrily along down some hallway away from you all of a sudden is teleported back under your crosshair and killed. To the dretch it may even look like you shot him through the wall. Cries of "H4X!!" ensue.
Unlagged generally makes the world a better place. However, with Tremulous there is a snag. Only one team is packing long range hitscan weapons and is benefited disproportionately. The damage and fire rate values that were tweaked to balance the teams when human laggers were filling empty air full of bullets are now much too great when human laggers actually nail their targets.
For more info, see the author's website:
http://www.ra.is/unlagged/ (http://www.ra.is/unlagged/)
I posted this in-case more members ask what un-lagged means, may help, may not.