Unlagged: Good or Absolute Scum

[jal]

I looked up what cg_nopredict does, but couldn't find much useful information. But from the little i did read is that with cg_nopredict 0 the client is rendering your actions without waiting for confirmation by the server about  the validity of that action.

This is a pretty correct description of what prediction does. It executes the movement commands generated by the client and not yet confirmed by the server. In short, guesses where your client will be even if the server didn't move it yet (take note of this: Clients never see themselves where they really are, which is a few steps behind of their view).

What cg_nopredict does is disabling it, so it shows the real client position.

So behind the bitching actually most of the knowledgeable posters here were right on both sides of the argument depending on what you define is high lag. So maybe we should leave it at that. I will remain on the position that with high ping (differences) Unlagged has fairness issues. And I will also remain on the position that with only low lag  (or equal lag) players in a game Unlagged is not much of an issue for me.
For low ping (differences) your argumentation is however on the spot, it probably doesn't make much difference.
 

I find a huge difference when playing ET with 60 ping and when playing Q3 (or Trem). The main point is, I don't need to accomodate to each server ping. If I join a server where I ping 40 and a server where I ping 80 I can use the same play style. As it is the same playstyle as at LAN. I'm, ofc, more effective the closer to LAN cause shooting isn't the only thing that counts, but being able to keep a constant style is much better for improving yourself. And, ofc, more pleasant. They are games after all, and we don't play them for the sacrifice.
This is why I always say what matters is improving the playing experience, and not fixing bad connections.

On a side note, refering to people claiming it's too easy to get kills with antilag. Agreed, you're just right, and damages should be modified accordingly. In Warsow, we had to decrease most weapons damage by around a 20%, and some hitscan ones even more.

[Eeeew Spiders]

What cg_nopredict does is disabling it, so it shows the real client position.

Or to be more precise, given you have a ping of X ms and given that you execute a valid action:
cg_nopredict 0: Your position as you view it is X/2 ahead of where the server decides you are
cg_nopredict 1: Your position as you view it is X/2 behind of where the server decides you are

So actually cg_nopredict with both setting show you X/2 off of where the server sees you.

And what counts is where the server decides you are. Its meaningless for calculations of events in an UnlaggedOFF scenario where you think you are, but:

UnlaggedOFF: Given a low ping, where you think you are is close to where the server sees you in regards of shots and position.

UnlaggedOFF: With high ping the difference is much bigger

UnlaggedON: Not so however with Unlagged.
- There sometimes the server decides where you are depending on how much lag somebody else has for hit calculation on you.
- There sometimes the server decides to count your shots based on the position the server thinks you viewed yourself in and not where the server saw you in that time.

This again means, that with cg_nopredict 1 would funlily UnlaggedON or would make it apear more random for the high pinger, where as with UnlaggedOFF cg_nopredict only applies client side and not interfere with how the server decides (not directly, the server still only decides, but with no_predict 1 the high pinger movement  feel a lot more sluggish and he would see himself closer to the position the other low ping clients see him).

 In that regards is kevlarman right that cg_nopredict has some relation to Unlagged.

[temple]

Mantra

Sometimes, I would shoot exactly at a dretch, see my md shot pass through him and hit the wall exactly behind the guy, not forgetting he's going in a straight line, and the shot would actually miss.

I've heard people say that.
I never use the Mass Driver (too expensive, shotgun is better and stronger), so I don't know anything about the shots passing through people.

First off, unlag makes aiming so much more easier that anything lower then a goon mince rifle meat.
Secondly, the sudden rise of aimbots.
Thirdly, It makes human camping games hell. .

1st, anything below a goon should be mincemeat.  I actually have gotten better at playing with Unlagged.  You can adjust and forget that Unlagged is even on.  
2nd, aimbots....blah.  
3rd, Games are already camping hell.  

I argued all your points in the 'TJW new version of Tremulous' thread when I first started playing with Unlagged.  But after a while, I got better and I realized that Unlagged is a correction and it benefits everyone.  


Franctly, after reading a few post here and there in this thread(Sorry kev, I skipped a few of yours, they were giving me a headacke) I noticed a lot of you stating they play on dretch*storm or other gigantic player servers that run unlag.

What name did you play under on D*S?  I don't remember a specific mantra or if I did, I don't remember anything special about it.  

D*S has 28 max players. Which it only runs 28 players maybe a few hours at night.  I play more 10-16 player games than 28.  Just to clear that up.

Now, let me state something, I got kicked from D*S twice and got banned for over 2 weeks because people said I aimbot.
I'm banned from over 5 other servers running unlag for the same reason.
I regularly get kicked from servers running unlag for this same reason.
I spend my days playing with actual good players that have prooven their worth both on lagged and unlagged servers, big people that everyone knows. Here I mean: bodyorgan, kattana, orc, black, most of zub/zilla/oldkillaz, iabz, and I could pass over a dozen others that almost everyone knows, people who have near 8/10 aim on lagged and 9/10+ on unlagged. Though I'd say I'm not the best, and in fact, far from it, I do beleive I still hold more skills then 3/4 of the community. I've learned through the hard way that unlag makes any semi competent human team a nightmare for aliens. If the human team as any sort of teamwork, aliens can easily be dispatched.

I've played with all those people too.  
In fact, I have killed katt, bloody, and anger when they have a Mass Driver as a dretch.   They don't hack and they can miss.  They can be killed.  Unlagged just forces aliens to think a little bit more.  I don't even want to derail the thread with tactics but people need to step up their games.  

At the same time, it is not possible to get past specific situation.  Like if Katt is sitting on the opposite end of a hall.  Katt can pick dretches 1 by 1. I don't see that problem with that because goons can do the same thing.  But there is a way to challenge that situation but it requires a little more thinking.  

The problem with Unlagged isn't the humans, its the aliens.  I was saying this in the Aimbot thread.  Most aliens think it is their job to run straight into the human base over and over.  Without Unlagged, the turrets usually kill people.  Now, your average human is getting more kills.  But is the dretches that feed over and over, running in plain sight, never wall walking, not ambushing, pressing down long halls, that is ruining the game.  I sometimes go spectator to see why the alien team is losing and its the a bunch of dretches doing lazy/noobish stuff and then complaining when the human team advances.

[Nux]

Another interesting quote from the from the author of unlagged for Quake III is the following:

I just got shot around a corner!
Common Answer

Sort of. What actually happened was that, when your attacker saw you, you really were in plain sight, to him.

You didn't think you would get total hitscan lag compensation for free, did you?

At any rate, if all you're worried about is getting “shot around a corner,” the effects aren't that big of a deal. You can get used to that. Just remember that Unlagged helps other people hit you in exactly the same way that it helps you hit other people.


Technical Answer

The answer isn't much different. You, as the target, were backward reconciled to the point where your attacker saw you, which was in plain sight. There's nothing buggy or weird about it – it's just a side-effect. Lag compensation by client-side hit tests has exactly the same problem.

In this, he admits that thier is the inconsistency that we are occasionally frustrated by. He tries to justify this:

1. This is a natural consequence of attempting to reduce lag problems.

I understand that this is the price you pay if you can't afford to play on low-ping servers (he knows too that this is the only way to fully relieve yourself of these problems).


2. The disadvantage is also given to your enemy who can shoot you round corners too.

This on the other hand is not valid in tremulous. In tremulous the alien side doesn't attaeck in the same way that the human side does. It seems like unlagged was made for FPSs with both sides attacking from long range. Tremulous isn't like this.

Some peoples reasons for liking unlagged have been that the low-pinging guy no longer has the unfair advantage. Could these people be seeing a natural advantage as an unfair one, and the lag compensation is actually giving THEM the unfair advantage?

One important point to note. To some extent, all trem-players will be used to a certain level of latency. Whether it be because you're far away from the server or you've only adapted to the built-in lag. When you are used to your own level of lag, it can be frustrating to have another clients measure of events suddenly interrupt the consistency of your own. I guess some people prefer the server to be always right and some people prefer the client to be always right. I personally don't see the high-pingers measure of events as 'trustworthy'.

[jal]

This on the other hand is not valid in tremulous. In tremulous the alien side doesn't attaeck in the same way that the human side does. It seems like unlagged was made for FPSs with both sides attacking from long range. Tremulous isn't like this.

Bullshit. Tremulous is the game I know would benefit most of proper antilag. Aliens need it badly in any of their evolutions, and humans need it badly for machineguning dretches. Both feel disgusting and randomly unfair atm.

[Eeeew Spiders]

On a side note, refering to people claiming it's too easy to get kills with antilag. Agreed, you're just right, and damages should be modified accordingly. In Warsow, we had to decrease most weapons damage by around a 20%, and some hitscan ones even more.

Very interesting. You show you have given Unlagged a lot of thought both in it's theory and practical side . Since you wrote a version of Unlagged this is not suprising that your observations and thought match closely the observations of the other Unlagged author in the Link temple provided.

So with your quotes and the quotes from the Link temple provided, Unlagged makes only sense when:

• cg_maxping < 100 or max_reconciliationtime < 100 (since beyond that you get fairness issues)
• changing other parts of the game too to compensate for artifacts Unlagged causes.

Aliens need it badly in any of their evolutions, and humans need it badly for machineguning dretches. Both feel disgusting atm.

Its not like there are no kills on UnlaggedOFF servers :D Also disgusting is very relative. I hope you are not saying we like it to be disgusting. I mean, that's your view. Our view is we want it not to become disgusting :D

Anyway, don't take my following point to serious:

I have an idea for a cheat. I will put an artificial delay (or messing with message timestamps) in returning/sending packages to the server. With that delay I can control how much lag the server thinks I have.
When I shoot a dretch, my lil cheat controller will look if and when the dretch was on the spot I shot at. It will then delay my information to the server by the right amount until the server thinks that that is the ping I have. Now my actual shot is being send. Voila, dretch paté. In pactice I don't think it will work very well, since its hard to control internet latencies and applying the right calculation is difficult since the server tries to smoothen the ping values.
The point this bullshit of a cheat proposition is trying to make, is that clients can suddenly manipulate or temper with server calculations.
Servers are god (or the equivalent of newton laws, depending on your religious status :D ) and always should be right and should not be tempered with. I think many server owners share that point of view :D.

On a more serious note, I find it a pitty that first a Link is posted that supposed to explain all, and when it actually does and confirms what I am saying suddenly it gets ignored :D Oh well, discussion tactics :D

And now again to something Off Topic

This is like politics when people teach the controversy. 'E-vilution is a THERORY, ITS NOT TRUE!11111111' I don't even want to respond but its so stupid I have to.

Actually, Evolution is a theory and is a theory that has been tested in reality and simulations that it works. The observations of species we have today on our real planet together with the examination of fossil remains found in layers of chalk correspond very exactly to the theories of evolution of species. Thus it is very logic to assume that this is the best explanation of how things happened, no other Theory comes closer than that. One of the major attribute this theory has is that it is self-contained and complete. Any other theories I know have major flaws or substitute unknown X with unexplainable Y. More interesting however is the Evolution theory applied to molecular evolution, since this explains the evolution of DNA itself.

Unfortunately real life doesn't have Unlagged. if it did we could go out kill the monkey. Wouldn't that be fun?
Oh no, the father-son paradox, I didn't want to go there :D

[Iltama]

One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?

Better for some people, but still, as you can see from the poll, it would make it worse for the other half. Stop thinking about no unlagged or only unlagged options :c.

[kevlarman]

i don't see why people complain so much about getting killed around the corner. yes it can happen, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't matter. it's happened to me twice, and one of those was probably due to client prediction and not unlagged. client misspredictions on the other hand have gotten me killed upwards of 10 times in a single game, but you don't see huge flame wars demanding that client prediction be removed from tremulous.

[temple]

i don't see why people complain so much about getting killed around the corner. yes it can happen, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't matter. it's happened to me twice, and one of those was probably due to client prediction and not unlagged. client misspredictions on the other hand have gotten me killed upwards of 10 times in a single game, but you don't see huge flame wars demanding that client prediction be removed from tremulous.

Don't say that.

People are going to be like 'OMG WHAT IS PREDICTION?!'  Before long, the 'coding geniuses' of this thread will be predicting a prediction hack that has probably been used to kill them before.  And Unlagged will make it all the easier.

[Nux]

One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?

Better for some people, but still, as you can see from the poll, it would make it worse for the other half. Stop thinking about no unlagged or only unlagged options :c.

Agreeance.

As for this theory mumbo..

The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements that would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.

In a scientific context, the theory of Evolution is just that- a theory. It is a very strong theory in fact. This is because predictions have been backed up by observation time and time again without there ever being a definite counter-example. Fact is a more bold description as it would only take one exception to the 'fact' for it to become invalid. This is why scientists prefer to be open-minded in case their 'fact' can't explain something they encounter at a later date.

[treminator]

Why just the other day I was at Krogers in the 15 items or less express lane. Some guy ahead of me with his stuffed grocery cart just turned and smiled to the rest of us...

[Nux]

Why just the other day I was at Krogers in the 15 items or less express lane. Some guy ahead of me with his stuffed grocery cart just turned and smiled to the rest of us...

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Mantra]

I got kicked from D*S as mantra+zilla
I got banned on another name because I was sick of getting kicked, unfortunatelly, I got banned.

I fail to see how making anything lower then goon hell to play benefits aliens. With any half decent coordinated team(Forward shotgun with backed up las/md) Not a single dretch/lisk/mara can attack without sudenly dying. Even rifles can hold that job true.

Now, most people know how I play, I'm a crazy wall jumping moron, and chances are I'll jump right on your head after being worse then a mara. Now even that is useless, simply because the second someone sees me, I'm dead, no matter what gun they use.
Camping corners doesn't work anymore against humans either, simply because when you hop out of it, by the time you see the human, the human already sees you and started shooting you.
So now, its nearly impossible to kill with a dretch unless: you got lucky, the enemy is stupid and can't aim worth crap or is afk in the hall.
If you follow what I'm saying, this means that any half decent human team can get s2 without even dying, even possibly s3, and now in maybe 5-6 min you got a rampaging s3 lucy team spaming your door and base.

Only thing I believed might work for tjw was raising dretch hp to 35, which made them somewhat harder to kill and last that single milli second that could mean life or death.

On the regards of those players, check my post in the clan section. I've played almost all big namesand won more then half my games with them.

I do aggree with you that its the feeders that ruin the game, now on aliens, before on humans. But there's franctly nothing we can do about it.

[Nux]

Your post seems largely exagerative and off-topic. =/ Unlagged doesn't have THAT much of an affect. It can annoy people in certain situations that unlagged cannot account for, but that doesn't mean unlagged doesn't do a good job otherwise.

Yes, I know it seems like I've changed sides in this debate, but it's not so clear-cut. I see the job that unlagged is doing, and if it could do it so well that no one would ever tell the difference between a lan game a high-ping game, then this would be a great acheivement indeed. Thugh they've done a good job with it, that isn't to says it's perfect. There are questionable reconciliations and such when tremulous is concerned, which might not appear as problems in other games. This isn't to say that unlagged makes any one side super powerful. It just causes inconsistencies which can frustrate players rather than help them.

Unlagged isn't the root of all evil. It's just the umbrella that's meant to shelter us from the root of all evil.

[Survivor]

The conclusion after I read all points of view and evidence.

Unlagged makes it true to form. However since tremulous 1.1.0 was balanced without unlagged even in mind there have been some problems.

For unlagged to work correctly there will have to be balance adjustments primarily and setting (feel) adjustments secondarily. What people are complaining about the most is feel but what is the real problem is balance.

Although atm I am still against unlagged in its current form its principal is solid and worth it should the issues present now be adressed. If these issues however are dealt away with the mere thought being 'unlagged is just better and needs no refinements' I would be disappointed. But I can also see there is still a lot of work being done to it.

My advice to the opponents is wait it out untill they adress the problems and judge a finished version of it. Atm it feels like upgrading the engine of a car to f1 levels without changing the rest to match it. Give them time to change the rest to suit this idea.

[Eeeew Spiders]

i don't see why people complain so much about getting killed around the corner. yes it can happen, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't matter.

The around the corner metaphor is just a metaphor for similar situations that will show the same phenomena with Unlagged. If corners was the only problem, I'd say lets get rid of the corners

client misspredictions on the other hand have gotten me killed upwards of 10 times in a single game

How can you tell you were killed by your clients missprediction? Did it say:
kevlarman was killed by his clients misspredictions

but you don't see huge flame wars demanding that client prediction be removed from tremulous.

Its simple enough, edit your configuration and set cg_nopredict 1. The nice thing about cg_nopredict is that it only effects your own client, you cannot change what happens with somebody elses client.

People are going to be like 'OMG WHAT IS PREDICTION?!'  Before long, the 'coding geniuses' of this thread will be predicting a prediction hack that has probably been used to kill them before.

Well, this genius right here seems to have interpreted what client prediction does quite well. This genius right here seems to have also interpreted what Unlagged does quite well if you compare it with the information you find in the Link you provided. And given an OK ping your clients missprediction is never far off. So why the cheap backstabbing?

Although atm I am still against unlagged in its current form its principal is solid and worth it should the issues present now be adressed. If these issues however are dealt away with the mere thought being 'unlagged is just better and needs no refinements' I would be disappointed.

Gee, you managed to sum up the contents of 6 pages of text in 2 sentences. Well done:D

[kevlarman]

if you ever move into a door that opens quickly (most doors on karith and nexus) at roughly 600ups you will see a really obvious missprediction. when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't, as a result i miss my next bunny hop and eat a face full of lead.

[temple]

I got kicked from D*S as mantra+zilla
I got banned on another name because I was sick of getting kicked, unfortunatelly, I got banned.

I fail to see how making anything lower then goon hell to play benefits aliens. With any half decent coordinated team(Forward shotgun with backed up las/md) Not a single dretch/lisk/mara can attack without sudenly dying. Even rifles can hold that job true.

Tue Apr 03, 2007
Unlagged and Alien hit points[/b]
With Unlagged, humans are dealing a lot more damage.  Specifically, the rifle is connecting much more and making Stage 1 and Stage 2 brutal for aliens. I think all aliens need their hit points buffed around 5-10 points due to how the game plays now.

Wed Apr 04, 2007
The Alien Problem
Its too hard to generate evos.
With Unlagged, dretches are a non threat if the human has range.  Without dretches, aliens don't have another weapon to use.

I felt the same way BACK THEN.  But I've changed now that I'm used it too.

[Eeeew Spiders]

if you ever move into a door that opens quickly (most doors on karith and nexus) at roughly 600ups you will see a really obvious missprediction. when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't, as a result i miss my next bunny hop and eat a face full of lead.

ups = fps? or is ups the server updates you receive? If it's the first, I can never test it, my computer would cause a meltdown before I'd reach those values.
I am not quite sure what is being described in your example. Your client predicts (renders) to early that the door is open when the server considers it is closed until it receives your door-open message?

[kevlarman]

if you ever move into a door that opens quickly (most doors on karith and nexus) at roughly 600ups you will see a really obvious missprediction. when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't, as a result i miss my next bunny hop and eat a face full of lead.

ups = fps? or is ups the server updates you receive? If it's the first, I can never test it, my computer would cause a meltdown before I'd reach those values.
I am not quite sure what is being described in your example. Your client predicts (renders) to early that the door is open when the server considers it is closed until it receives your door-open message?

ups = units per second (for comparison, a human moves at 320 ups without sprint, and come to think of it, 600 might be a little low). the door will open in time for you to not crash into it, but if your ping is 60 or more you will appear to smack into it on your client.

[Eeeew Spiders]

ups = units per second (for comparison, a human moves at 320 ups without sprint, and come to think of it, 600 might be a little low). the door will open in time for you to not crash into it, but if your ping is 60 or more you will appear to smack into it on your client.

So its actually completely reversed as I interpreted.
The door is actually open in the servers point of view, but the opening door is not subject to prediction, that's why you only see the door open when you get the confirmation message that the door opened. In the meantime you are hit by bullets from the other side of the door while you still see the door closed.
Interesting.
Does your client correct your position after you did get the confirmation that the door was actually open and though you apeared to be smaking against the door the server already saw you on the other side of it and so do you after you got the servers confirmation?

when a bsuit decides to walk in front of me it looks for a while that i hit him even though i didn't

I think this part confused me, sorry to go completely Off Topic. Why does it appear to you that you hit the bsuit when you still see the door closed?

Little side question: I presume the state of the door itself is not being rolled back. Would this also imply that when a high ping person is shooting at the door which still seems closed to him but the server already sees open, his shots would count? Not that you can win a game using this tactic though, someone who frequently fires at closed doors probably does not add to the teams performance at all (more likely the reverse) with his lucky kill once every 50 games

[kevlarman]

ups = units per second (for comparison, a human moves at 320 ups without sprint, and come to think of it, 600 might be a little low). the door will open in time for you to not crash into it, but if your ping is 60 or more you will appear to smack into it on your client.

So its actually completely reversed as I interpreted.
The door is actually open in the servers point of view, but the opening door is not subject to prediction, that's why you only see the door open when you get the confirmation message that the door opened. In the meantime you are hit by bullets from the other side of the door while you still see the door closed.
Interesting.

still wrong. the problem is that your movement becomes extremely difficult to control for nearly half a second (this can be reduced a little by changing the amount of time the client will use to smooth out a missprediction, but that has its own issues). i've gotten used to the karith door missprediction by now, so it's mostly a non-issue, but when i misspredict in the middle of a fight it can and has gotten me killed. it's mostly an issue with dretches though because other classes can't gain that kind of speed in the middle of a fight.

Little side question: I presume the state of the door itself is not being rolled back. Would this also imply that when a high ping person is shooting at the door which still seems closed to him but the server already sees open, his shots would count? Not that you can win a game using this tactic though, someone who frequently fires at closed doors probably does not add to the teams performance at all (more likely the reverse) with his lucky kill once every 50 games.

this is correct, but the opposite situation is more important: the door closes on the server and his shots will no longer land even though he sees them hitting.

[Eeeew Spiders]

movement becomes extremely difficult to control for nearly half a second.

Do you mean the dretch behaves more spastical, or is this reflected in a moment of not being able to accelerate (or change direction) as fast as you are used to? In the latter case, I was always wondering what that was. I always thought that this was due to Unlagged (<- don't take that last comment serious, bad joke :oops:)
Not that it matters much in regards to Unlagged, but I still don't quite understand what is happing there in a technical view point. But I think that I can clear that up by myself by reading more information about client prediction.

[kevlarman]

movement becomes extremely difficult to control for nearly half a second.

Do you mean the dretch behaves more spastical, or is this reflected in a moment of not being able to accelerate (or change direction) as fast as you are used to? In the latter case, I was always wondering what that was. I always thought that this was due to Unlagged (<- don't take that last comment serious, bad joke :oops:)
Not that it matters much in regards to Unlagged, but I still don't quite understand what is happing there in a technical view point. But I think that I can clear that up by myself by reading more information about client prediction.

you will get stuck against some object that isn't really in your way, then as soon as your client realizes that it wasn't blocked, it "fast forwards" to line up what you see and what will happen when the server gets your message. you can set the amount of time the client uses to recover from a missprediction (including 0, but that would be extremely disorienting).

[n00b pl0x]

cl_maxping 50

[Mantra]

^^^^^^^^Empty server for 7/8 of the day.

[jal]

One more idea I had:
I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine? If it was worked since Q3 and if it was the only way used by the methods (in the game's source-code) to control the relation between bullets, players, gravity etc., wouldn't it turn the engine's natural gameplay into something better?

Better for some people, but still, as you can see from the poll, it would make it worse for the other half. Stop thinking about no unlagged or only unlagged options :c.

It won't make it worse for the other half when properly tweaked. They think it would, cause when players master a game become conservative and scared of change. This has happened to many games in the past.
I'd encourage the people implementing antilag (kevlarman, I guess?) to restrict the reconciliation default value to the shorter time themselves, and not let it to the server admin. Cause if the server admin doesn't care enough, it will show the feedback glitches, and this is what creates its bad fame.

[Nux]

I would welcome a version of unlagged that was perfect in every way. How likely is this going to be the case though? Surely, even with the most subtle changes, a small action that was vital to my success could still not be replicated on another client's screen and I pay the price as if I'd never made said action. This might be less prominent or frequent an occurance, but it would still enter into the game a number of times over a duration of play. This could still cause upset. Why not leave it as an option and then even the obsessive complainers will have one less excuse.

I'd also like to note that the current poll has reached 31 - 31.

[Eeeew Spiders]

With the foresight that with the following suggestion I will bring both groups, the ones that advocate Unlagged and those that refuse Unlagged, against me, I have shown to be stubborn enough to go ahead anyways:

At the moment I know of none of the more regular european servers that is running Unlagged. Most of them used to have it when it became more widespread. But server owners in concord with their player base have chosen to remove it again. So actually since then we haven't had much opportunity to continue to test it.
So my suggestion is for the developers of Unlagged and the european server owners to come to an agreement about fixing Unlagged and have it run for testing purposes. When I say fixing I mainly mean the corrections that jal suggested in limiting the rollback time to a more appropriate value, and at the same time looking at weapon damage values and see if they would require a change. In addition I am sure the developers also have their own ideas about what needs fixing to improve their time machine .

I know that most server owners and developers are not very closely tight and that they operate very independent, so that task may be hard to accomplish.

But back to live, and back to reality: without such a dialog there won't be any Unlagged on servers here. The server owners I spoke to are very clear on their stance towards Unlagged, as well as some of the major Clans here. Unless you give them any reason for them to change their minds, any discussion about pros and cons is futile, since it won't change the server landscape we have here.

[Survivor]

Reason: they were testing an unfinished product.

And for tuning antilag you don't need that high of a level players at the start. Normal level players should be able to take notice of the weird effects discussed. When those are gone you take it to the higher level people for fine-tuning and finishing it. Let them work on it in peace with the comments they got and wait for the next real version, not some quick fixes.