Unlagged - Yes or No

[temple]

Your ping is basically the speed at which you can receive those frames.  While playing, you are constantly receiving frames.  So, a player with around 0-30 ping is going to be seeing frames pretty much a the rate that the game engine can produce them.

A high ping client receives the packages in the same rate than a low ping client. They are just received with a delay. Ping is the delay, not the rate (frequency).
(Though when further away, due to rerouting or net disturbances, the packages may be received out of order. Out of order packages will be dropped, since the protocol is UDP based. This can cause jitter => warping).

edit: me and my constant editing, i should stop that, sorry!

You win the cookie!

[player1]

This was mentioned above, but, nice poll. At least I know how I voted. On purpose?

[Lava Croft]

I'm happy to see the flaming and personal whining is kept to a minimum and we actually have a 4-page thread with some decent discussion about Unlagged, it's workings and it's perceived effects. You people almost make me proud by keeping your cool. This goes for both 'sides' in this debate!

@St. Anger: If you feel you lack in arguments and have to make up for it by commenting on someones physical appearance, that is your problem, not anyone Else's.

[janev]

I only got to page 3 but what i saw was...

Temple stating your point over and over again without regarding what others are saying doesn't make you right.

st. angerjuice seems to have a problem with lava croft.

Lava croft and survivor have waaaay too much patience. Bravo, but some people just won't even try to see things your way.

Now then on to my 0.02 euro cents.

I don't like unlagged, I haven't since it was first discussed and tested for tremulous (via irc). I find adding another variable (in the opponents perceived movements) just messes up my game.

I'd also like to add that I usually play with 90-100 ping and have no problem(I actually represent one? of the few undefeated clans in Europe) playing against other people in the 0 - 130 ping range. Since going much above that will likely result in some of the adverse effects mentioned here in an unlagged game I see no reason to  play with unlagged.   

[AppleJuice]

I only got to page 3 but what i saw was...

Temple stating your point over and over again without regarding what others are saying doesn't make you right.

st. angerjuice seems to have a problem with lava croft.

Lava croft and survivor have waaaay too much patience. Bravo, but some people just won't even try to see things your way.

Now then on to my 0.02 euro cents.

I don't like unlagged, I haven't since it was first discussed and tested for tremulous (via irc). I find adding another variable (in the opponents perceived movements) just messes up my game.

I'd also like to add that I usually play with 90-100 ping and have no problem(I actually represent one? of the few undefeated clans in Europe) playing against other people in the 0 - 130 ping range. Since going much above that will likely result in some of the adverse effects mentioned here in an unlagged game I see no reason to  play with unlagged.   

You should probably read page 3, and think of your own insults while you do so.  People have already responded to your comments.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

i still think that EU should do lagged an Us should do unlagged.

there is no need to make a gap between us.

noone can explain the US players well enough that if they want to hit a dretch in a normal game, they have to aim approx a meter and a half ahead of them, because it's clarly a nonsesne.
and vica versa.

[Lava Croft]

You just specify the gap you do not want us to create. This thread was meant to close that gap and create more understanding for and from both sides, while eliminating the nonsense that's said about and by both sides. This does not create a gap, it closes it, hopefully.

This has nothing to do with people being American or European, don't forget that the person who is mainly responsible for the new balance changes, as well as allowing Unlagged to be implemented, was killing Aliens and eating Spawns long before any of you heard about a class-based teamplay Aliens vs. Humans FPS, and he was doing so without Unlagged. He is also very American. It's a personal preference, not a preference based on location.

[gimhael]

So players used to lagged servers prefer lagged and players used to unlagged servers prefer unlagged. On both systems players have to live with some inconsistencies (having to lead your aim vs. being shot around a corner).

The problem is that the players used to lagged servers automatically try to compensate for the flaws of the system even when they play on unlagged servers and vice versa. So they generally play worse than they are used to, and consequently avoid the other type of servers.

Now what would happen if the unlagged flag is made into a per-client variable ?

The server could calculate the shot of temple at the time he pressed the trigger and the shot of lava at the time the servers receives the packet. Then they could play on the same server aiming like they are used to, they would still suffer from the being shot around the corner problem while any unlagged player is in the game, but at least they could have a match without one player at a big disavantage because he has to adjust his aim to the unknown style.

[temple]

So players used to lagged servers prefer lagged and players used to unlagged servers prefer unlagged. On both systems players have to live with some inconsistencies (having to lead your aim vs. being shot around a corner).

The problem is that the players used to lagged servers automatically try to compensate for the flaws of the system even when they play on unlagged servers and vice versa. So they generally play worse than they are used to, and consequently avoid the other type of servers.

Now what would happen if the unlagged flag is made into a per-client variable ?

The server could calculate the shot of temple at the time he pressed the trigger and the shot of lava at the time the servers receives the packet. Then they could play on the same server aiming like they are used to, they would still suffer from the being shot around the corner problem while any unlagged player is in the game, but at least they could have a match without one player at a big disavantage because he has to adjust his aim to the unknown style.

Yeah, I wish.

That isn't possible to my knowledge.  But if it was, players wouldn't want it.  The Unlagged players would outperform the lagged players. 

[Revan]

Unlagged vs. Lagged
vi vs. emacs
My Linux distro vs. your distro
C vs. FORTRASH vs. Paskull vs. Ada vs. C++ vs. Perl vs. TECO vs. LISP vs. Python
ITS vs. Unix vs. Mac vs. MS-D.. eh never mind

[Eeeew Spiders]

Now what would happen if the unlagged flag is made into a per-client variable ?

Not bad, but make it so that it only sets whether or not your position is being rolled back for other clients, not if their position will be rolled back for you.
just joking ofcourse

Or an alternative Unlagged suggestion, make hitbox size dependent on ping,  not to be taken serious either.

A somewhat more serious approach to unlagged is to move the hit detection to the client of the target. This would mean that latency involved in hit detection is
equalized between the two affected clients. It is as hard for a high pinger to hit a low pinger than for the lowpinger to hit the high pinger.
But this would mean net traffic load and client processing load that is not feasible with standard equipment, complete rewrite of the q3 engine and clients, as well as opening whole new doors to modding clients for cheats (god mode, manipulating hitbox sizes etc etc).
Nah, its better to leave that bit of calculating to the server.

[KamikOzzy]

So players used to lagged servers prefer lagged and players used to unlagged servers prefer unlagged.

Not that this is particularly relevant to the debate, but remember that some of us played a long time (well, a year and a half anyway, in my case) before unlagged was around. I was well-accustomed to lagged and yet made the switch when the other American clans started using unlagged for scrims. We found it canceled a lot of the home-field advantage that was created by clans normally pinging better to their own servers.

The problem is that the players used to lagged servers automatically try to compensate for the flaws of the system even when they play on unlagged servers and vice versa. So they generally play worse than they are used to, and consequently avoid the other type of servers.

At the time unlagged was first tested on my favorite server, I had mixed feelings about it. The clan I led was very divided in opinion as well. However, the consensus was always that unlagged helped you play better unless you had low ping to begin with. The debate of course was whether this was a good thing.

As far as moving from lagged to unlagged, I never had any trouble and in fact, in the early days, my clan would practice on lagged for a few days, then switch to unlagged again. I don't know if it really made our aim better or it just felt like it did, but suddenly hitting your shots was a big confidence boost.

[gimhael]

I understand that you can switch from lagged to unlagged and adjust your aim quickly. But reading the posts from Lava, i get the impression that not all players have this skill, and so I was thinking about a technical solution that would allow him to play on an unlagged server, but still use his accustomed mode of leading his shots.

Would this technically work ?
-> I think yes.

Would this be balanced ?
-> Probably not. Being able to shoot at your opponent after he fled around a corner is more useful than being able to shoot him before he enters your fov, unless you have a wallhack.

Would Lava play better on this server than on a pure unlagged server ?
-> Well, I can't say for sure, but I think yes. It would not be like playing lagged vs. lagged, but he would hit when he thinks he should hit whereas now he hits when he thinks he should miss.

I know this is all just speculation and it's by far not a finished idea. Maybe it can be improved. That's why I posted it.

[KamikOzzy]

Being able to shoot at your opponent after he fled around a corner is more useful than being able to shoot him before he enters your fov, unless you have a wallhack.

You don't shoot them before they enter your FOV, you shoot them before you enter theirs. You see them a few milliseconds before they see you, due to ping differences, and can shoot them sooner. They, on the other hand, still see you a few milliseconds after you no longer see them, thus allowing the around-the-corner stunt. And believe me, it only takes a good pair of rifles those few milliseconds to drop your ass on-the-spot if you just wildly hop around the corner.

Also, I don't hear too many players complaining about not being able to hit their shots because they don't have to lead; I always thought the main problem players had with unlagged was that others *did* hit their shots, when normally they wouldn't. Am I wrong here?

Thus, even if I liked the lagged style, I wouldn't want to be using it against the "improved" unlagged aim.

[Lava Croft]

But reading the posts from Lava, i get the impression that not all players have this skill

Wrong. It has little to do with a lack of skill, but all the more with a lack of motivation, when there is no clear reason to do so. This thread failed at changing my mind either, although I quietly had hoped different.

Letting clients choose if they use Unlagged or not, seperate from the global server settings, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard concerning Unlagged. Either enforce it on all clients or do not enforce it at all. Selective use of Unlagged by clients will only lead to exactly what Unlagged claims to combat, a unbalance in the playing field.

[KamikOzzy]

This thread was a triumph!
I'm making a post here:
"HUGE SUCCESS!!"

It's hard to out-debate
the other faction.

Tremulous Servers:
We choose what we trust
because we can.

For the good of all of us.
Except the ones who are lagged.

But there's no sense crying
over unlagged's mistakes.
You just keep on trying
till it's all you can take.
And the arguing gets done,
Though debates cannot be won
with the people who aren't
yet unlagged.

I'm not even lagging...
I'm being so sincere right now-
Even though you shot me around
the corner.

And shot me to pieces.
Before I could even see you fire.
As I died it hurt because
You were so laggy it's true!

Now, these points we're debating
make a beautiful line.
And the 1.2 creators say
It's unlagged next time!
So I'm glad we all learned-
Think of all the skills we earned-
from the people who aren't
yet unlagged.

Go ahead and hate me...
I think I'd prefer to stay unlagged...
Maybe you'll find somewhere else
to play without it?
Maybe on SatGNU?
That was a joke! HAHA!! FAT CHANCE!!

Anyway this game is great!
It is so balanced and fun!

Look at me: still posting
when I should be owning noobs!
When I look at Europe,
it makes me glad I'm not you.

I've afraid I have to run.
There are games to play for fun.
with the people who are
All Unlagged.
And believe me I am
still Unlagged.
I'm doing fine now and I'm
still Unlagged.
I feel fantastic and I'm
still Unlagged.
While trem's dying I'll be
still Unlagged.
And when 1.2's out I'll be
still Unlagged.

Still Unlagged.

Still Unlagged.


Inspired by Lava Croft's Companion Cube signature. Yes, I know, I have no life. But I have trem <3 .


For those who didn't play Portal, my song is based on http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI&feature=related

[gimhael]

You don't shoot them before they enter your FOV, you shoot them before you enter theirs. You see them a few milliseconds before they see you, due to ping differences, and can shoot them sooner. They, on the other hand, still see you a few milliseconds after you no longer see them, thus allowing the around-the-corner stunt. And believe me, it only takes a good pair of rifles those few milliseconds to drop your ass on-the-spot if you just wildly hop around the corner.

I must have misunderstood something then. I thought what you see on the screen is exactly the same whether you play unlagged or not. Only the hit-test of your gun is different.

Wrong. It has little to do with a lack of skill, but all the more with a lack of motivation, when there is no clear reason to do so. This thread failed at changing my mind either, although I quietly had hoped different.

I didn't mean to say that you lack skill in playing Tremulous, but was talking about the ability to change from one style to the other, which KamikOzzy claimed to have whereas you said that you had problems hitting St. Anger on an unlagged server, so I guessed that you don't have that skill (the lack of motivation would be a good explanation why this is so).

Letting clients choose if they use Unlagged or not, seperate from the global server settings, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard concerning Unlagged. Either enforce it on all clients or do not enforce it at all. Selective use of Unlagged by clients will only lead to exactly what Unlagged claims to combat, a unbalance in the playing field.

I don't see how this is an unbalance, as any player can choose whatever mode he plays better in. If I can score more kills in lagged mode than in unlagged mode, even vs. unlagged opponents, then I don't see how it helps the balance when I'm forced to switch to unlagged too.

If unlagged mode gives the player an advantage, I can understand that unlagged mode would be disabled on a lagged server, but why not allow lagged mode on an unlagged server ? If the advantage is real most players will be using unlagged anyway.

Anyway, I have no problem with the current situation, so we can just forget this idea.

[David]

...

Most awesome post ever.
We need to make a "post of the month" award or something.

[KamikOzzy]

haha, thanks

[Lava Croft]

Ozzy gets a +10 for making a awesome variation of one of the best computergame songs of the past 5 years, belonging to the best computergame ending in the past 10 years.

[AppleJuice]

Hahahahaha. I love how you converted "And when you're dead" to "And when 1.2's out."

[KamikOzzy]

All the same isn't it ;P

[Lava Croft]

I'll just go out of my way and say that every gamer with a bit of self-respect left in his guts should have beaten Portal at least once.

And we are still Lagged, mind you.

[Annihilation]

Ozzy gets a +10 for making a awesome variation of one of the best computergame songs of the past 5 years, belonging to the best computergame ending in the past 10 years.

Thats not even all of it, he busted out ts and recorded it.  Its hilarious.  I'm sure he'll upload it later.  Don't think he'll let me.

Btw he used a voice converter.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TSP393KT

[KamikOzzy]

Aha you posted it. You bastard >.>

[Annihilation]

It's ok.  You have a sexy voice.   

[+ OPTIMUS +]

epic win

now let me find a bass guitar :-D

[KamikOzzy]

epic win

now let me find a bass guitar :-D

Please do.

I'd love to hear a version with the portal music. =D

[techhead]

My honest opinion is that unlagged is part of the solution. However, it is neither the only solution, nor a complete solution by itself.

Also, can unlagged be added to the Tremulous forum's spell check dictionary? It's annoying when in a discussion about unlagged and clicking the spell-check button highlights a dozen or more references. Then again, I only had 3.

[raf]

Aha you posted it. You bastard >.>

Its great
I love it :-)