Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: KamikOzzy on December 01, 2008, 07:53:47 pm
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So, I've seen a whole load of topics about what Tremulous needs to do to stay alive. I'm just about sick of suggestions =/
Everyone seems to blame development, server operators, and even forum administrators. I'm going to steal and modify a famous line that I believe fits quite nicely: Ask not what Tremulous development can do for us, ask what we can do for Tremulous Development.
Step one is play the game. Play it often, and encourage others to do the same. Not enough good players out there? Guess who can change that: you. If you believe the skilled players are unfriendly, I might have to agree with you, but that doesn't mean you can't become the exception to the rule. If you think you are kept from getting better because of the skilled players not helping, get over it and stop making excuses. Noone helped me become ready to join a clan like Zubs, but rather, I made myself ready, and I promise it isn't that hard.
The greatest gift you can give to trem, other than being a friendly high-level player, is to actually make things. Find out what you're good at. Maybe you can make models, or maps, or even qvms.
Keep the community in mind when you mod anything. There are tons of huge, beautiful maps out there that nobody plays. Try and make your maps playable before they are presentable. A few more maps as balanced as ATCS could do worlds of good for the game. Same for modding. It's much easier (and more fun) as a modder to create wild settings than it is to implement new, balanced features, but the community will, if anything, suffer from dumbass mods.
Stick it out. Eventually, whether we like it or not, Tremulous will be reduced to a few hardcore players who refuse to give it up. Be one of those people. If we have 200 diehards with us we can still have decent games and even clan matches. With 50 of us the chances for diversity in gameplay narrows.
Don't be quiet. If you think the direction 1.2 or anything else is going is shit, tell them so...just maybe not in that way. Constructive criticism can help a modder know what people want and need, rather than just implementing features for the sake of it. Remember when you yourself become the developer to keep an open mind. If you and your development team are the only people who are very optimistic about your mod, chances are the playerbase isn't digging it. Run some servers, and invite some friends. If you have a good project, I will go as far as getting it populated (if only for a couple weeks or so) for you. If people are constantly showing up, you know you have done something worthwhile for the Trem community.
Above all, thank the people who ARE doing great things for us. TJW, Lakitu7, K-otic/Exclamation/Volt, Superpie, Your Face, Supertanker, Khalsa - just to name a few - deserve thanks and appreciation. If you post a thank you in the topic for whatever they have done, they will be motivated to do even more for us.
Have fun, play the game, be your best and kindest, and you will help the game. Tremulous has no dreams of being on the cover of EGM, it's a medium-sized mod and it's going well. All we have to do is maintain it, and it will live on for years to come.
Thanks for reading <3
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lock and sticky please
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lock and sticky please
Seconded, I believe KamikOzzy couldn't have proved his point any truer. We should encourage and contribute to Tremulous devlelopment, not critisize it.
Btw, this thread is a play on words on Stick's thread, isn't it? You meanie. :P
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i think you should've made note of amanieu to your list too hes doing alot of fixes/code for tremulous and probably contributes more than anyone else atm. i know you said to just name a few but the volume of work he does he should get a meantion
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That's all nice. Also, if you like the game, and feel that you've gotten about tenbux worth of entertainment out of it, then donate (http://sourceforge.net/project/project_donations.php?group_id=14890).
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Truefacts. It may not help get anything done, but Timbo deserves it...not to mention, you get one of those kick-ass little logos by your name.
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I'd like to point out one thing, to the people who think Tremulous is dying:
Not everyone likes to play on the internet (so yes, the internet community may be dying). I know probably about 20-25 people in my little town, who simply play LAN games, because they believe the internet is full of rude, sarcastic, nasty people... so they keep to themselves, nonetheless they like fun freeware games I feed them. And that's just people I know.
We may actually have more fans than we realize...
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Pretty much, yeah. People need to stop being so incredibly whiny about this and that which the game should do to "improve", splitting the community into many pieces over very minor differences in opinions and preferences. If you enjoy playing Tremulous, then play Tremulous. All the arguments and factionalization and power struggles don't actually do anything but hurt this game that everyone here likes to play.
At the end of the day, yes, all that will be left are the hardcore players. The competitive and clan scene keep that alive far more than the casuals playing LOL CRAZY MODs ever will. Indeed it does help when those players are friendly too, but even if not, they give us something to strive for. A large part of why I kept playing this was from my time spectating the great players of the day and working toward having their skill. And while scrims/matches aren't without their share of annoyances, they do offer more strategic teamplay than one finds on the average pub server-- more specifically, the teamplay and strategy that specifically make this game different from the legions of deathmatch FPS out there. If I'd downloaded this game, connected, and seen only 32v32 camp/spam fests with 999 BP, I'd sure have deleted it in a hurry. As you said, in a community this small, all actions have consequences, be that good mods or bad mods, good players or bad players, good maps or bad maps, friendly players or assholes or griefers. The most important thing for the continued survival of the game is what a new player sees on the first server he connects to. If he/she first sees good players playing a balanced, strategic game, he/she will stick around.
So, from my personal perspective, thank you back, "hardcore" and competitive players (who may or may not be in clans). Yes, you are the players that keep this game alive and give me a reason to keep producing code for it. Please be nice to newbs, though. :)
Let's put it in big beautiful bold:
What Tremulous needs to stay alive is for intelligent people to promote it and play it intelligently.
Agreed (mostly) and sticked. However, I do think that a "good" player so far as helping the game is not as much about skill as attitude. An intelligent player who tries hard but has crappy aim is still a great player for the growth of the game if he plays often, is friendly, and genuinely enjoys playing.
Disclaimer because people are morons: blah blah I only speak for myself, obviously blah blah
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However, I do think that a "good" player so far as helping the game is not as much about skill as attitude. An intelligent player who tries hard but has crappy aim is still a great player for the growth of the game if he plays often, is friendly, and genuinely enjoys playing.
trem doesn't really need good aim (before i got rusty i was very decent at trem, but if you've seen me play any other fps you'd see i can't hit the broad side of a barn)
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I know probably about 20-25 people in my little town, who simply play LAN games, because they believe the internet is full of rude, sarcastic, nasty people...
:laugh:
trem is a zombie.
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Excellent KamikOzzy, you hit the nail right on the head.
(also thanks for the thanks, really does work >.< )
Khalsa
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this is very pointless.
but kamikozzy you are dead wrong. trem died because the devs abandoned it. i cant say i blame them but thats pretty much how it is, no amount of new forum themes is going to change that.
The greatest gift you can give to trem, other than being a friendly high-level player, is to actually make things. Find out what you're good at. Maybe you can make models, or maps, or even qvms.
Keep the community in mind when you mod anything. There are tons of huge, beautiful maps out there that nobody plays. Try and make your maps playable before they are presentable. A few more maps as balanced as ATCS could do worlds of good for the game. Same for modding. It's much easier (and more fun) as a modder to create wild settings than it is to implement new, balanced features, but the community will, if anything, suffer from dumbass mods.
people did all that stuff, years ago, people dont play them because it was/is a pain in the ass without a new official release. *
trem is in its zombie state now, refusing to properly die. a few hard core players still remain, some crusty old forum regulars are still dishing out the thousand word posts, the dev team is now 3 times the size it was originally - and 1/42th as productive, Lava Croft has finally been banned...
somebody kill it please! have mercy on this poor thing!
*ok there was some heplful stuff done server side (eg. lakitu), and that was good and helpful, but it worked only because the devs didnt have to do anything.
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get your facts straight gareth: lava wasn't banned, he deleted his own account.
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I think it's incredibly unfair, inflammatory, and just generally incorrect to say that "the devs abandoned [tremulous]". The devs never abandoned Tremulous. While progress perhaps slowed down after the initial release of 1.1, development has continued steadily and, within the last year or so, has significantly sped up. You can't track the level of devotion by developers to a project solely on the basis of whether or not there has been an official release; and it's simply an unfair and unfounded insult to claim that they abandoned the project that has been in the works for (iirc) eight years now when, all the time, proof of ongoing development is being provided.
If anyone abandoned Tremulous, it's the type of people like you that throw around these ridiculous and overreactionary claims. The people like you that put on a facade of wanting what's best for Tremulous, when all you do is further try to undermine and decrease the general community morale. You may not blame the devs for what you perceive as abandoning Tremulous, but I very personally blame you and everyone like you who can seem to do nothing but jump into every thread about development and 1.2 spouting snide remarks at the dev team's ongoing work, with little sidenotes of "lol dying community, vaporwarez, trem is ded".
I appreciate that you've personally done some good things for the community and the game, but if that's the kind of attitude you're going to bring along with your contributions, then you might as well have not done them in the first place.
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Gareth, have you even tried the newest changes on MGDev? Have you bothered to notice the development games that happen every week, rain or shine? Your post is full of massively incorrect facts that you apparently have not even attempted to research. Is the fact that the forums are still extremely active not sufficient evidence?
In short: Please pull your head out of your arse.
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One point that still bothers me and will until 1.2:
Why is there still an outdated client at the download page? Is it really too much for the ego of the devs to put at least tjws client there or anyone with a decent feature set? (Or has it been silently updated without any form of notice ;-O)
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get your facts straight gareth: lava wasn't banned, he deleted his own account.
really?? aw lava was a good mod
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Don't be quiet. If you think the direction 1.2 or anything else is going is shit, tell them so...just maybe not in that way. Constructive criticism can help a modder know what people want and need, rather than just implementing features for the sake of it. Remember when you yourself become the developer to keep an open mind. If you and your development team are the only people who are very optimistic about your mod, chances are the playerbase isn't digging it. Run some servers, and invite some friends. If you have a good project, I will go as far as getting it populated (if only for a couple weeks or so) for you. If people are constantly showing up, you know you have done something worthwhile for the Trem community.
The name's X. TremX.
I have never seen it empty, yet it sucks.
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The name's X. TremX.
I have never seen it empty, yet it sucks.
I assume you're talking about the mod TremX, and while it doesn't entirely embody the "true" spirit of Tremulous, I think it's a decent alternative implementation of the gameplay.
If, on the other hand, you're talking about the server X and the rest of its kind, I couldn't agree more.
Note for future reference: TremX and the X server are not the same thing.
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One point that still bothers me and will until 1.2:
Why is there still an outdated client at the download page? Is it really too much for the ego of the devs to put at least tjws client there or anyone with a decent feature set? (Or has it been silently updated without any form of notice ;-O)
Agreed. That is insanely annoying.
I think that gareth's point has merit. MGdev should've been up a year ago.
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The name's X. TremX.
I have never seen it empty, yet it sucks.
I assume you're talking about the mod TremX, and while it doesn't entirely embody the "true" spirit of Tremulous, I think it's a decent alternative implementation of the gameplay.
If, on the other hand, you're talking about the server X and the rest of its kind, I couldn't agree more.
Note for future reference: TremX and the X server are not the same thing.
I was under the impression that X and the other servers run tremx, no?
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no
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I think it's incredibly unfair, inflammatory, and just generally incorrect to say that "the devs abandoned [tremulous]". The devs never abandoned Tremulous. While progress perhaps slowed down after the initial release of 1.1, development has continued steadily and, within the last year or so, has significantly sped up. You can't track the level of devotion by developers to a project solely on the basis of whether or not there has been an official release; and it's simply an unfair and unfounded insult to claim that they abandoned the project that has been in the works for (iirc) eight years now when, all the time, proof of ongoing development is being provided.
If anyone abandoned Tremulous, it's the type of people like you that throw around these ridiculous and overreactionary claims. The people like you that put on a facade of wanting what's best for Tremulous, when all you do is further try to undermine and decrease the general community morale. You may not blame the devs for what you perceive as abandoning Tremulous, but I very personally blame you and everyone like you who can seem to do nothing but jump into every thread about development and 1.2 spouting snide remarks at the dev team's ongoing work, with little sidenotes of "lol dying community, vaporwarez, trem is ded".
I appreciate that you've personally done some good things for the community and the game, but if that's the kind of attitude you're going to bring along with your contributions, then you might as well have not done them in the first place.
Gareth's poor choice of words does not negate a simple fact: a lot of people have the feeling that the devs have abandoned 1.1 a long time ago.
This thread is about Keeping Tremulous Alive and because 1.2 isn't even born at this point, I take it is about keeping 1.1 alive.
I've seen it many times, both as mapper and server operator: people do not play customs maps. You spend months on a map only to see it never gets played. On the server, we had to remove the custom maps because every time one would come up, players mostly disconnected. It sucks for the other players (empty servers are no fun) and it obviously sucks for the mappers as well, because their maps do no get any playtime. It's not very encouraging.
Suppose you just found out about Tremulous, you would probably go the official website and download the latest version. There's nothing that even remotely
hints about http downloads, guids, etc yet you do need them if you want do some serious gaming. The usual argument here is that everything can be found on the forum, but the fact is that people do not read. I speak from experience here: the first people to cry for help are those who did not read the notice in large bold red letters at the top of the installation instructions. And this is, unfortunatly, not a joke.
In my opinion there are two dominant feelings at the moment: players realize a game is not made overnight and are patiently awaiting 1.2. The day it
is released, they will download it and give it a try. The other feeling is that Tremulous 1.1.1 should have been released ages ago. These feelings are not
mutually exclusive.
The fact that the myth surrounding 1.2 has grown to almost epic proportions isn't very helpfull either. It's not a technical problem. It's a about
perception and management. There is no reality on the Internet, there is perception only.
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What was it that +OPTIMUS+ said? Something like, "Trem is an RPG, only the experience points aren't gathered in-game." It is hard for new people to find a simple, complete client and a generally-accepted map pack (5 or 7 playable maps that get actual game time on non-obnoxious servers - not just a giant repository of every map ever made and never played), which are often only found at the websites of servers, clans or other cool groups of neato folks, who are somewhat independent of "Official Tremulous", who- & whatever that may be at any given point in time. As was said, perception is king, and a certain, semi-transparent clarity helps a lot, too. Of course the hard-core player-base (of old time Quakers and the people who were sturdy enough to withstand their abuse) want new players to be worthy of the helping hand which is extended to them: I can stick out my hand to help you up, but you need to get up off of your ass mostly by yourself.
That said:
@KamikOzzy: Bravo. TYFM. Well-spoke.
@gareth: A tad overstated, from my point of view.
@seffy: A most enjoyable retort.
@ingar: Agreed (by and large). A concise summation of the situation at hand, as seen by the average disinterested party. If it ain't obvious, one shouldn't assume I've got either the time or the wherewithal to find it. Unless Trem wants its player-base to consist solely of Those Who Could Figure It Out. Which, de facto, is the continuing case. A 1.1.1 client* and small add-on map pack (in the half-dozen range: non-gimmicky, extremely playable, community-made maps) somewhere nearer the Trem.net home page would help to direct more people toward gameplay and less people toward Google. <3 sig
Cheers!
*With the three or five most important client-side patches: sort-by-ping fixed, backported, with a GUID (possibly with guidserver unique ON), Options as a Play Menu item, and a noticeable, yet very concise 3 - 6 page READ-ME that explains why autodownloads are great, but why the feature is disabled by default, and how easy it is to change, what a tilde key is, and what the console is. And no forum searches necessary. A manual like the RTCW manual: "Push Q at the big green box (and if you've never heard of carry limits before, don't forget that you have to SELL that Rifle first, you raw recruit)!". With tutorial mode enabled by default, and a message that says "See Options menu to change settings" the first time you boot up the client and connect to a server. Just a little dream I had one day...
P.S. No offense to anyone who contributed to Trem documentation, but a really small list of useful newbie client commands and a brief discussion of what the heck cvars are wouldn't hurt either. I needed it a lot more than the nifty discussion of visual effects. Not that that wasn't enlightening, but I have yet to really need to know the code that makes plasma balls look so nifty. Remember Quake manuals? "This is a blaster. Do not point at self while squeezing trigger."
I am affiliated only with other bottom-feeding, non-clannish (not that there's anything wrong with it), pub-server-playing end-users like myself, and am influenced only by the vagaries of ignorance. Thank you for your time.
I hope I have offended no-one, and enlightened everyone, while also discovering new things about myself, God, and the Universe of Nature. Peace unto you, fellow Travelers of the Tribe of the Tremulous.
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small list of useful newbie client commands
Do you mean client commands server-wise? I already got a website with those commands, actually, it needs to be badly updated to a new website with no crappy ads. Or do you mean client-based commands, like /cl_allowdownload 1?
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often only found at the websites of... other... folks, independent of "Official Tremulous"
a really smali list of useful newbie client commands
The point of my post is that a few things that are useful could be displayed prominently at the main tremulous.net website, and not so much at the forums or at independent sites of nice folks like you. Something very brief, written for the new-at-Tremulous, and also the new-at-Quake-based-games, the new-at-where-files-go and the new-at-QVMs/cvars/vstrs/etc.
If the list were to be hosted at Trem.net (near some kind of newbie client download center) it would be, of necessity, just a very brief list of only the most essential commands (the ones you post in threads over and over). Some lvl 0 server commands, just to get people started, without overwhelming them; AND some simple cvars, like client server unique, allow downloads, monitor settings, etc. (again just the briefest list of the most-asked-about commands). People who want to find out more can be referred to larger repositories of information. People who just want to play can find the most essential information, delivered as concisely as possible, for the lowest-common acceptable denominator of player, a Quake-style quickstart 6-page manual.
Making the damn thing work. - simple client download page, with brief, clear-cut, no-bullshit instructions that assume I am a brainless moron
Kill stuff. - the current Trem 1.1 manual
Get bonuses. - plus some stuff that was left out
Kill stuff more efficiently. - plus some other stuff about binds, non-cheat useful tweaks, monitor settings, quick (rewritten, updated) FAQs, etc.
Work together. - a two-paragraph note on fire-team tactics for Humans and Aliens; what a builder does; what rushing as a group means
Have fun. - How NOT to be a kook
That sort of thing. Hosted on the main site. A jump-start for newbs, n00bs, and ZOMFG!nubcakez0rz. If help is needed with the writing or editing, I hereby volunteer my extremely limited free time. :)
And thank you for also supporting Tremulous by posting a list in need of updating elsewhere. I mean that sincerely. Cheers.
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Incredible how the quality of ideas generated in this thread cannot be compared to the quality of ideas of the other thread, similarly named.
Carry on.
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a few things that are useful could be displayed prominently at the main tremulous.net website, and not so much at the forums or at independent sites of nice folks like you. Something very brief, written for the new-at-Tremulous, and also the new-at-Quake-based-games, the new-at-where-files-go and the new-at-QVMs/cvars/vstrs/etc.
I agree.
I don't have time to do it myself however. I will have a solution for this within a week where you guys can help create it. If you would like to (locally) start crafting the "Newbies guide to tremulous" (or whathaveyou) in preparation would be great.
Khalsa
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khalsa,
I'd be happy to help. I need to do a fresh reinstall, so when I do, I'll document it, as well as re-reading all the "new to Tremulous" info I can find on the main site. That way, I'll be ready to help out with the project you are currently crafting (as you said, in about a week or so). My personal schedule is quite hectic, and entirely at the mercy of my employers (I am a mercenary backstage entertainment industry ninja), and this is the time of year where they cram in all those final events that they find out that they can afford, and cancel all the big ones that I was banking on. My next day off is either the 11th, when we will be winterizing the homestead, or the 18th, when we will finish painting the office. Yeah, life outside the Internet. Anyway, happy to contribute as much as possible, when available, even if it means cutting back ever so slightly on the fanfic skiffy thread. Thanks for the open offer to contribute, and for finding the time in your own schedule to do all of this work for free. A better Tremulous community is the one we all make together! Thanks for the reminder, and the new tone of the forums, in general, and "official response to community perceptions", in particular.
Cheers!
player1
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@player1: woot!
But really when I said 'you' I mean as in everyone on the forums, or at least those reading this thread. So everyone get your thinking caps on and start thinking about this! (and some other things I'll post about in a fresh thread)
****Not an "official" opinion below****
For a long long time, I did not really see the need or point of having an interim release (1.1.1 or 1.1.5 or w/e). Once I joined the dev team and saw the internal workings, and saw developers developing I saw even less need of it.
However after spending a lot of time on the forums and IRC, I've been slowly convinced of the 'point' as it were. Mappers will be happier, modders will be happier, and savvy players too. To me these are the people who by and large make up the "community" as I often see it. I've made it one of my goals to make these people happy (since I'm one of them too ;p) and do what I can around this place to make it better etc.
That being said, once things settle down in RL for me (school, work, the usual drama) hopefully I can spend some time exploring what sort of real effort is required - by myself, and by the more useful members of the dev team - in putting out an interim release, and if it's worth putting off 1.2 by however much it does. If it is cost-effective, I will definitely push hard for it, if not probably I'll share with you why not and we can move on as a community together.
Let me reiterate that DO NOT take this as any sort of "official" anything. I did not say the devs are going to do an interim release (also didn't say we won't). This is just some of my personal thoughts I would like to share with you guys
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This might be over the top, but you guys could set up a temporary wiki in which there would be an article for each individual thing you want in the manual (one for installation, one for the lcannon, one for the lasgun, etc. etc.). That way, anyone could easily contribute. Once the manual is written, the wiki has no point and it should be taken down.
On a side note, I like how nexuiz has an 'official unofficial nexuiz wiki (http://ouns.nexuizninjaz.com/)' with lots of important and well-written info.
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Yays for the sticky! I agree that this thread should stay stickied, because the positive and realistic ideas and concepts in this thread posted by the forum's many intelligent members showed what the future of Tremulous should reach for.
Lets salute to Tremulous, the best FPS/RTS/RPG* game on the net! ;D
*If you think about it, the obtaining of "credits/evos" and becoming stronger, and stages that relate to a team's "level" is a commonly used RPG element, but Tremulous alters that concept for the basis of it's gameplay, thus I consider Tremulous being an "RPG" of sorts.
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This might be over the top, but you guys could set up a temporary wiki in which there would be an article for each individual thing you want in the manual (one for installation, one for the lcannon, one for the lasgun, etc. etc.). That way, anyone could easily contribute. Once the manual is written, the wiki has no point and it should be taken down.
On a side note, I like how nexuiz has an 'official unofficial nexuiz wiki (http://ouns.nexuizninjaz.com/)' with lots of important and well-written info.
This has allready been done for the "1.2" manual.
What player1 is talking about however is not for the manual :-)
Khalsa
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Ah, so the 'newbies guide' is a separate entity?
Make a wiki for that too :P
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If we do that we need a trem forums moderator in charge, or at least someone who cares, to oversee that we don't have anything stupid added (exploits, glitches, etc)
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If we do that we need a trem forums moderator in charge, or at least someone who cares, to oversee that we don't have anything stupid added (exploits, glitches, etc)
Or possibly more harmful, incorrect information.
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I vote for someone responsible, who hangs around here a lot, wants to contribute, and can be trusted as far as near-total anonymity will allow. OP, I'm looking at either you or the poster who posted the post just above this post (that writer guy).
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Can Lava do it?
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He'd have great edit summaries.
"Removed **** written by someone who can't use google and is pooping out of his mouth."
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Is it possible for us to pick out which maps are extremely well done, then fix the trem download to include them as default maps when you download tremulous? This may not help current players, but new players will then have all those newer maps already.
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Well, including more maps is basically releasing a new version and is kind of a given if a new version were to actually happen.
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Is it possible for us to pick out which maps are extremely well done, then fix the trem download to include them as default maps when you download tremulous? This may not help current players, but new players will then have all those newer maps already.
Well, including more maps is basically releasing a new version and is kind of a given if a new version were to actually happen.
I'm getting an idea..wait..no that was just me thinking about cake again. No wait, a poll that is made to ask the members of Tremulous to vote for what they think is good, balanced and fun maps that should be included in the new version of Tremulous. Its actually up to the devs to decide, but theres no reason to not make one if its going to be just suggestions made by the community. If noone is going to make the poll, I swear by the icing on the most vanilla filled cake that I will.
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Well, including more maps is basically releasing a new version and is kind of a given if a new version were to actually happen.
1.11 then. Could possibly have some bug fixes and new maps. Doesn't need much. Would hold off some bitching about 1.2 for a while too.
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Help with the wiki (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9822)
Yes, your dreams have come true!
you guys have some lame dreams, seriously
Khalsa
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1.11 then.
Version numbers are usually sequential, so don't expect to see 1.11 before 1.2 :-)
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Why not simply add a downloadable map pack to the main page instead? In itself it would save a lot of confusion, and it would be pretty easy.
Wepretty much simply need to have a poll which allows us to choose which FINISHED maps should be added, once its done, zip them up and host and voila, people can simply download that pack, which most servers could then run without fear of losing 90% of their player base. Said maps would probably also be added to 1.2(hell in fact if you already have chosen which maps you'll be putting in, why not simply zip them up now and host on the main download page?)
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1.11 then.
Version numbers are usually sequential, so don't expect to see 1.11 before 1.2 :-)
My mistake. 1.1.1 then.
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You mean like I already have been at the wiki...
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Everyone knows that people will eventually stop playing tremulous so the only way we can keep trem alive is to make the experense enjoyible for newbies. The changes can range from improving the manual, changing the armory menu and fixing all the bugs.
The manual is good at answering question on what the structures do but not very good at answering how to fix the large amount of errors newbies experience. GLW_StartOpenGL() - could not load OpenGL subsystem is one example of an extremely common error. I got this error from changing my screen resolution to high and then my tremulous crashed. I still liked tremulous and tried to uninstalling and reinstall but the uninstaller didn't delete my autogen so when i redonwloaded tremulous i had the same error. Then I didn't know about the tremulous forums so i searched through the manual looking for answers but found none. I gave up playing tremulous for a month and only started again when my friend told me to search for tremulous and delete everything that comes up. I did this reinstalled and i got it working but if it were not for my friend I would have never played tremulous again. There are many other questions newbies have like "whats GUID" or when i connect to a server it says "my client is out of date but i just donwloaded tremulous" and "how do i get weapons out of the magical green box". This info isn't available when you download tremulous and should be if you expect people to play it. We would have even more players if the link to this forums was posted in the manual that way people who had unanswered questions after reading the manual could come to this site. Another solution is if the manual was a link instead of a pdf so that we could continually update it. Simple changes like these will greatly increase tremulous' popularity.
Another necessary change is fixing all the glitches and stupid settings. I reinstalled tremulous and these are all the changes i had to make to play it and should be enabled by default.
1. download tremulous
2. (optional) download GUID
3. create shotcut of tremulous on my desktop because a lot of xp users don't know about all programs
4. Open tremulous and change sorce from local to internet
5. press get new list
6. join a server and try to read error message wile connecting but it is to fast
7. change name so that i can join a team
8. change lighting so that i can see
>system
> gfx software
9. Enable auto download
10. cg_lagometer 1
11. change mouse sensitivity
although a lot of these changes are personal preference its obvious that the way the controls are at default are stupid. If newbies are going to play tremulous then they need to be able to connect to a server and see, simple yet disabled by default in tremulous.
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More than 1 million downloads of Tremulous.
About 1000 active players. (Not sure about that number, may be a little more)
Something is obviously wrong.
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With all due respect to the problems faced by newbies, perhaps Trem is not a "mainstream" game. A FPS/strategy hybrid may not be everybody's cup of tea. I don't know, I never played much before I stumbled across Trem. Are there other similar games out there enjoying more attention? What are they doing differently?
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They have a server list that isn't empty on startup. I think this is the major problem with 1.1.
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get your facts straight gareth: lava wasn't banned, he deleted his own account.
really?? aw lava was a good mod
Muhaha
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Trem won't die till the servers start to die out.
but The Wine-Bar will always be open! Noob friendly and proud of it.
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Trem devs don't like the internetz. They dream of the ol' days of LAN games only (no ping problems thar).
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stuff
Actually one of the best posts I have ever seen from this guy. He makes some good points.
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Tremulous won't die. This is just dumb. Its like jazz or blues. It has its own community and it fuels itself. As long as people want an open source game that they can mod and as long people like ALIENS VS MARINES (which is forever), Tremulous will be around. Tremulous is really a time capsule for 90's gaming, FPS games, and the Quake 3 engine. You can't kill that.
I think the peak of Tremulous has passed, I caught on to Tremulous a few years ago and there were more players. But after 3+ years of playing (three fucking years), I still run into the same people.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with 1.2. IMO, it adds very little constructively, introduces a lot of undesirable effects, and ultimately is a drain on everyone's patience. I would mod 1.1 Tremulous on to a newer engine and give this thing a whole new kick around the internet consciousness. When another open source engine is available...
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sauerbraten engine?
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sauerbraten engine?
The Sauerbraten engine may look impressive, but it is so riddled with bugs and inaccuracies that it is hardly realistic for an online game.
Simply, there is not a viable engine to switch to right now. XReal is unstable(as far as I know), and there haven't been any milestone ioquake releases. If anyone can correct me on this, that would be exciting. :)
As many others have said, I really agree that the main client download should be replaced with a newer one, with downloads on by default, etc.
I almost gave up on this game because of the empty server list issue, and I'm sure many have already. Combining the un-boxed sorting system with showing a server list without changing source would make the game more accessible for newbies.
I hope the devs really listen to the community about this, as regular updates, even if not giant, would allow us to spread the word around again.
Thanks for your time,
Whales
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there was a milestone ioq3 release not long ago. the thing is, trem already receives ioq3 svn merges every so often to start with.
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Like Yesterday (http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/tremulous/activity)
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What Tremulous needs to stay alive is for intelligent people to promote it and play it intelligently.
I couldn't agree more, me and my friend got tremulous to 40 people in one we then people were asking for it an the lan servers were mayhem. (up to 64 people)
Bob
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What Tremulous needs to stay alive is for intelligent people to promote it and play it intelligently.
I couldn't agree more, me and my friend got tremulous to 40 people in one we then people were asking for it an the lan servers were mayhem. (up to 64 people)
Bob
We can always dream, but it won't always work.
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Persistance is the key!
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Who needs 1.2? I have all my friends here and I'm havin' fun. I am indifferent towards 1.2 and its eventual birth. I can live with 1.1 forever, hell I've been playing since August of '06, why quit now? or even when 1.2 comes out?
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in keeping Tremulous alive, but at the moment, it seems to me like it is living as well as it has been for the past year or so, without any serious declination in its activity.
Thanks Ozzy for the thread.
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I agree with Bleach. I Love 1.1. Its completly balanced on most maps. A lot of games I buy arent balanced at all, and I find myself putting the game on my shelf and logging on to Trem. If 1.2 is better I'm all for it. But I think 1.1 is just fine, the only thing that kills trem to me is still the camping! The great players out there love great games, and are more likely to talk to new players and help them if they arent being pricks acting like they know better by staying in bases. I always help new players when they attack and listen to me. But when they want to be pricks I kill whore them like no other. I dont think I have a reputation as a rude player and I like to keep it that way. I got good by players better than me helping me out and I try to do the same to others less skilled as I am. When I was a noob I almost quit with my other 5 friends who started with me because of the constant asskicking by good players. But they prolly dont remember me, but Mooseberry, and Alex helped me a lot and by following them I stuck with it and I'm still here roughly 3 years later.
The only other problem I have is hacking. Maybe a hacking prevention software would help? but prolly not because its easy to bypass. But I can't stand Hackers. Seems like they are everywhere. I cant get on a server now w/o someone kicking the shit out of everyone and when I spec them they suddenly suck ass? Im not stupid, many hacks/bots have spec detector. There are so many hacks/bots out there now its impossible to catch everyone but you know they are hacking, but you cant prove it. I'm not gonna say names but there is a point to how good someone can be at this game, I know some players are trem gods, but most of them are Hack Gods. Agree with me or not IDC. But i cant prove anything, but its kinda obvious if you think about it. And it is killing this game
To Ozzy, I agree with you. The great players will grow bored of the game, and it will nothing but the great hackers, and noobs.
Just some of my thoughts. :)
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Maximus:
are you sure about that spec detectors? I think that is not true, because when you specing someone, then you not sending any data to him, so he can't know if you specing him or not.
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A bug in certains qvms causes the spec to have the same ping as the player.
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No new version after 3 years is what's killing/killed the game.
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I agree with Bleach. I Love 1.1. Its completly balanced on most maps. A lot of games I buy arent balanced at all, and I find myself putting the game on my shelf and logging on to Trem. If 1.2 is better I'm all for it. But I think 1.1 is just fine, the only thing that kills trem to me is still the camping! The great players out there love great games, and are more likely to talk to new players and help them if they arent being pricks acting like they know better by staying in bases. I always help new players when they attack and listen to me. But when they want to be pricks I kill whore them like no other. I dont think I have a reputation as a rude player and I like to keep it that way. I got good by players better than me helping me out and I try to do the same to others less skilled as I am. When I was a noob I almost quit with my other 5 friends who started with me because of the constant asskicking by good players. But they prolly dont remember me, but Mooseberry, and Alex helped me a lot and by following them I stuck with it and I'm still here roughly 3 years later.
The only other problem I have is hacking. Maybe a hacking prevention software would help? but prolly not because its easy to bypass. But I can't stand Hackers. Seems like they are everywhere. I cant get on a server now w/o someone kicking the shit out of everyone and when I spec them they suddenly suck ass? Im not stupid, many hacks/bots have spec detector. There are so many hacks/bots out there now its impossible to catch everyone but you know they are hacking, but you cant prove it. I'm not gonna say names but there is a point to how good someone can be at this game, I know some players are trem gods, but most of them are Hack Gods. Agree with me or not IDC. But i cant prove anything, but its kinda obvious if you think about it. And it is killing this game
To Ozzy, I agree with you. The great players will grow bored of the game, and it will nothing but the great hackers, and noobs.
Just some of my thoughts. :)
I personally haven't seen an aimbot in over six months. Maybe you should stop playing on shitty servers?
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IMHO aimbotting is not as much of a problem in Trem as it might be in other FPS games.
First of all, Trem has spectator mode, which can quickly reveal the actual aimbotting.
Second, there's more to FPS then perfect aim, and a lot more to Trem then to the average FPS. Even assuming that a hacked client can detect being specced and turning off aimbot, you can still recognize a bad player. Heck, you don't even need spec for that (although it definitely makes things easier).
A decent Trem player is more than just a person who roams the map shooting their gun or pointing their alien perfectly, in between trips to the armory for restock. You need to know when to shoot. You need to know how to dodge (you can instantly recognize a skilled dancer.) You need to know when to attack and when to retreat. You need to know how to fight alone as opposed as fighting as a group. You need to know the maps and make use of strategic points in both hand to hand combat and building or attacking. You need to use your alien or weapon+armor properly. You need to choose what alien or weapon/armor to use in particular situations. You need to work with the team and communicate. You need to recognize how the game turns and adapt your tactics.
I could go on but I think you got the point. :) All these things usually develop together in an honest Trem player. So if you see a player who is a perfect shot but can't even move efficiently and disregards all the finer points of Trem you can suspect aimbotting even without actual speccing.
Third, there are things particular to Trem that make aimbots a thing of limited use. They are not effective for slow-firing weapons and using aimbotting for the pulse-rifle or luci has got to be downright dumb. As is using an aimbot for anything bigger than a mara -- if you need to that you need glasses not an aimbot. And of course, since it's a team game, one player using an aimbot does absolutely nothing for the team in the long term, if the other team is half decent.
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The only aimbots I have seen in the last months have been total noobs who couldn't even manage to get decent kills WITH the aimbot. Of course, this might only be to the fact that smart aimboters can fine tune to a point where it is impossible to detect them. Which of course leads to the question: What do they gain from using such a minor aim helper?
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i sawd a aimboting flam throwr befor???
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The only aimbots I have seen in the last months have been total noobs who couldn't even manage to get decent kills WITH the aimbot. Of course, this might only be to the fact that smart aimboters can fine tune to a point where it is impossible to detect them. Which of course leads to the question: What do they gain from using such a minor aim helper?
You answered your own question. They are so bad, that even this slight aim help improves their playing, even if it is still horrible by your standards.
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i sawd a aimboting flam throwr befor???
(English skills aside...) I seriously doubt it. Using the flamethrower efficiently requires one to basically leave ignited vapors behind and move away from that spot. It is quite different from projectile weapons (both fast and slow). A theoretical aimbot for the flamer would have to be able to predict when and where aliens will get close to you and move the wielder to safety. Not to mention dodging alien blows.
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Oops, I forgot my /joke. ::)
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Oops, I forgot my /joke. ::)
;)
Anywho, there is only one known hack for Tremulous and I'm wondering how difficult it is to create a sort of "block" for it. But then again, in Tremulous just knowing to aim perfectly is only having one piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
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you need to know when to shoot aswell
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Uh yeah, that goes without saying.
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Oops, I forgot my /joke. ::)
;)
Anywho, there is only one known hack for Tremulous and I'm wondering how difficult it is to create a sort of "block" for it. But then again, in Tremulous just knowing to aim perfectly is only having one piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
There are actually quite a few... I could name three or so off the top of my head. =|
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I don't think there's any real problem with Tremulous. It just happens that a free game like Trem can't spend on promotion, so the only real promotion it gets is the news items when a new version is released. This revitalizes the comunity, but sooner or later the players try new games, and there's nothing wrong with that. When 1.2 is released there will be many new people playing Tremulous again.
They have a server list that isn't empty on startup. I think this is the major problem with 1.1.
Indeed. This is the biggest flaw and, imo, it should be a top priority to fix. It's just repackaging the installer!
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jal: There is real problem. It's autodownload off, low brightness, issue with "get new list + source", low downloading speed and old game.qvm for local server. Change this default settings, add tjw build and reupload to homepage. Maybe too much work :-)
Today story (new player chatting with me). "I love to build, bla bla bla...". 5 minutes later. "I was kicked out, somewhat map error". "Turn autodownload on". "Where?". "In options". 5 minutes later. "Wtf, I downloading map by 1KB/s, I fuck this, bye."
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I agree with nearly everything said in this post so far. The only things Trem needs are a friendly community, adjustments to "brand new" Tremulous installs/downloads, and useful help resources. Someone brought up advertisement earlier; I think the best form of advertisement is word of mouth. I've got plenty of free time if anyone has anything for me to do, otherwise I'm also doing my own thing for Trem.
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why is it so fucking hard just to fix these glitches and release an other installer. Fixing these glitches will not make 1.2 less existing.
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why is it so fucking hard just to fix these glitches and release an other installer. Fixing these glitches will not make 1.2 less existing.
Because they'll already have a split playerbase when they release 1.2. They don't want to make the current standalone any more appealing than they have to at this point, because that could potentially increase the number of players that would stick with the current version, and rob them of a sizeable amount of players on the newer version.
That is, of course, assuming that this older version of tremulous will continue to be supported to some extent. (I'd still play it.)
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why is it so fucking hard just to fix these glitches and release an other installer. Fixing these glitches will not make 1.2 less existing.
Dunno. I already made it for windows: Tremulous new v1 (http://server-gomez.pilsfree.net/ftp/Tremulous_new_v1.zip)
Features:
- tjw build
- download on
- ADSL/LAN datarate
- mess from server names is filtered out
- unique guid on
- gamma 1.5
- lagometer on
- "source: internet" as default
- configuration is in game directory, not in documents
- server lakitu 5.5
I only don't know how to make "get new list" automaticaly when you click on "Play" from main menu.
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Because they'll already have a split playerbase when they release 1.2.
Why you think fixing client bugs will split playerbase? As far I know nothing will be required to change on serverside (well only adding the pk3 file that contains all those fixes to base directory for pure servers). Which basically mean you will be able to play 1.1 servers with both clients 1.1 and 1.1.1, but while connecting with 1.1 client you will have to autodownload the patch.
These fixes, by the way, should be done max few months after first release.
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And right after that... New version of tremfusion that allows you to play both on 1.1 and 1.2 servers!
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why is it so fucking hard just to fix these glitches and release an other installer. Fixing these glitches will not make 1.2 less existing.
Dunno. I already made it for windows: Tremulous new v1 (http://server-gomez.pilsfree.net/ftp/Tremulous_new_v1.zip)
*stuff*
And yea, nice work, but what I understand cactus's point to be, which I agree with, is put a damn new client download up on tremulous.net
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And yea, nice work, but what I understand cactus's point to be, which I agree with, is put a damn new client download up on tremulous.net
Yea, sadly, that will probably never happen.
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:acidtube:
why is it so fucking hard just to fix these glitches and release an other installer. Fixing these glitches will not make 1.2 less existing.
Because they'll already have a split playerbase when they release 1.2. They don't want to make the current standalone any more appealing than they have to at this point, because that could potentially increase the number of players that would stick with the current version, and rob them of a sizeable amount of players on the newer version.
That is, of course, assuming that this older version of tremulous will continue to be supported to some extent. (I'd still play it.)
why not just take now the 1.1 master list? woudln't that make everyone switch to 1.2?
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Because then the streets would run red with their blood.
I still would like to be able to play 1.1, even after the new shit comes out.
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1.2 has a different client<->server protocol than 1.1, but the client<->masterserver and server<->masterserver protocols are the same. The 1.1 protocol is protocol version 69, the 1.2 protocol is 70.
The servers send messages to the masterserver where they announce there name, IP etc. and the protocol version they use. A client can query the masterserver for a list of all servers using a certain protocol, so when you start the 1.1 client it will ask the server for all protocol 69 servers and when you start the 1.2 client it will ask for ann protocol 70 servers. You will simply not see the servers running the other protocol.
Theoretically you could make a multi-protocol client that fetches both server lists from the masterserver, but so far I haven't seen any attempts for this.
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And what is better in protocol 70?
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As far as I can see there is a new field for the new weapon animations and it dropped some unused stuff (there's only one ammo field now instead of one field per weapon). But 1.2 isn't finished so maybe there'll be more updates.
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joke topic imo
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whats the point if Tremulous is dead? What is it going to respawn with a telenode? Psst... whats the point of releasing the Tremulous 1.2 GPP if it doesn't have new models. Common sense, noobs will think its the official last Tremulous 1.2 and it sucks, causing Tremulous to become > dead. That simple. That was Tremulous's greatest mistake. Now Tremulous is totally Inactive.
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Small open-source gaming communities like this one exist all over the place. A lot of them deal with the exact same problems, and despite this, not very many of them ever dissapear. As long as there are people here who want to make this community better, i think its definitely possible.
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If you would like to (locally) start crafting the "Newbies guide to tremulous" (or whathaveyou) in preparation would be great.
No Lava to shout "NECRO - NECRO - ban the nub" to the one who resurrected this oldie but goodie? What's the world coming to?
DretchStorm once hosted a vibrant community of experienced players who loved to write guide chapters on anything tremulous - binds, fighting technique, building strategy, etc. It's a shame that all that material was taken down long ago in one of the many site re-orgs, but since nothing ever disappears from the Internet, it's probably archived somewhere. The DS guide was one place where a new player could dive in and learn just about anything that can be learned through reading.
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it's, by definition, impossible to necro a sticky.
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case in point.
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Damn straight. I just started playing and i have to play on smaller games to keep my shitty laptop from overclocking... But that's what's so great about Tremulous: I can play it on my shitty laptop!
Anyway, well said my man. It's nice to be important, but it's far more important to be nice.
...Although I will add that on the servers I've been playing, people were generally pretty helpful so far.
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When i get my friends to play trem, it takes them at least 3 days of gameplay to have a chance of liking it, and for me, i had no other shooting games at the time i got tremulous.
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0
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If you want people to play more often we need a new game, a physics engine (try havok) and more importantly adds glorious adds. Sorry just skimmed through what has been said. But there is/(was till the game died) one thing I love about tremulous: The people.
1. Hire developers, this is the only real option because it means they'll have to be more dedicated than the volunteers, and most probably more skilled. Think about this.
Get developers make it a shiny and fab game. Then get yourself across 2 pages in PC GAMER mags everywhere:
INNOVATIVE FREE GAME BLITZES GAMING WORLD. - TREMULOUS ALIVE -.
2. Publicity stunts, I'd go around handing out free copies if I could. Tremulous is foredoomed, no ones gonna play a dying game, think about it, we're all selfish fools, - It won't make a difference If I don't play, the rest will - thats the human thought process.
3. Give trem the hollywood of all game makeovers, use those developers, new aliens, new weapons, new human models (one we'd all appreciate no doubt). :human: + innovation = players.
-Labrat out. Oh anyone seen St. Anthony. (I'm on a mission to find him and play him again)
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I'd be able to help the community if every Macintosh modding/mapping program wasn't intel-based.
iirc some sort of *radiant works on PPC OSX. And Trem works fine, so you can just install XCode or whatever bullshit (or MacPorts, that gives GCC right?)
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I'd be able to help the community if every Macintosh modding/mapping program wasn't intel-based.
Same. >_>
PowerPC is kinda obsolete now.
I'd be able to help the community if every Macintosh modding/mapping program wasn't intel-based.
iirc some sort of *radiant works on PPC OSX. And Trem works fine, so you can just install XCode or whatever bullshit (or MacPorts, that gives GCC right?)
Sure, NetRadiant works.
No need for MacPorts though. gcc is included in every release of OS X (as the XCode is), since it's half-BSD based, and MacPorts tend to corrupt your SDL on some machines. :P
Overall, if you're a terminal hipster, you'll be able to code w/e you want using svn, bash, gcc and vi.
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Last I checked there was no gcc by default on OSX. But the last release I used was 10.4.
I should try and get my dual 500MHz box running again. I have a 733MHz PPC box running Linux here but it'd be nice to have an OSX box to use on the LAN. I think I have a G3 somewhere too, with 10.2 or some crap on it.
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IMO best way is to just buy the T-Shirt. That way, people will see it and go, "What is that?" If enough ppl did it, that would bring some people in. Assuming anyone who plays tremulous ever leaves the basement.
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I frequently wear my Tremulous shirt. Nobody I have met has asked what it is.
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Ooops. I have taken the wrong path and am smack-dab in the middle of a worship service of the die-hard traditional hard-core tremmies...
;D
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keep tremulous alive by adding new guns / aliens the new 1.2 tremulous is 1.1 with some changes ... the korx sever in 1.1 has more weapons and aliens than 1.2 what is with that ... Im not gonna move on to 1.2 because theres a trem 1.1 mod that has more changes and extras in it ... the developers (no offence) should have added new stuff instead of making a new trem with the same stuff with some changes korx has a flying alien new guns and more advanced tyrant advanced mara that shoots barbs and cloaks barricades for human aka force field and its balanced good !!! and many more things are added in korx.
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keep tremulous alive by adding new guns / aliens the new 1.2 tremulous is 1.1 with some changes ... the korx sever in 1.1 has more weapons and aliens than 1.2 what is with that ... Im not gonna move on to 1.2 because theres a trem 1.1 mod that has more changes and extras in it ... the developers (no offence) should have added new stuff instead of making a new trem with the same stuff with some changes korx has a flying alien new guns and more advanced tyrant advanced mara that shoots barbs and cloaks barricades for human aka force field and its balanced good !!! and many more things are added in korx.
No.
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keep tremulous alive by adding new guns / aliens the new 1.2 tremulous is 1.1 with some changes ... the korx sever in 1.1 has more weapons and aliens than 1.2 what is with that ... Im not gonna move on to 1.2 because theres a trem 1.1 mod that has more changes and extras in it ... the developers (no offence) should have added new stuff instead of making a new trem with the same stuff with some changes korx has a flying alien new guns and more advanced tyrant advanced mara that shoots barbs and cloaks barricades for human aka force field and its balanced good !!! and many more things are added in korx.
No.
this.
everything in 1.2 you have to have skill to do. dretch, rifle, even luci and mara. In KoRx, all ou do as a dretch is walk around looking up and run at humans for an instant headbite. KoRx has tomany unnesicary an dunfair things like the adv rant, aka jesus, which has 600 hp which is around 3 fully charged lucies. cloak is just plain dumb. learn how to flank. fmaras cant RC hop in KoRx, which is one of the most difficult skill in 1.2.
KoRx is fun for a month or so, but just, no.
and did i mention the admins abuse alot?
KoRx is for unexperienced players. 1.2 is for proffesionals.
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keep tremulous alive by adding new guns / aliens the new 1.2 tremulous is 1.1 with some changes ... the korx sever in 1.1 has more weapons and aliens than 1.2 what is with that ... Im not gonna move on to 1.2 because theres a trem 1.1 mod that has more changes and extras in it ... the developers (no offence) should have added new stuff instead of making a new trem with the same stuff with some changes korx has a flying alien new guns and more advanced tyrant advanced mara that shoots barbs and cloaks barricades for human aka force field and its balanced good !!! and many more things are added in korx.
Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience. Like the few mods I've seen (Human versus Human and Domination, for example), were fun for occasional games. You enjoy too much of mod, the reality between *the* Tremulous and modded Tremulous, twists. This happened to me. And not going to make same mistake twice.
If someone would want to make mod, he should chart what he would want to keep mod interesting. If he makes classes/guns/buildings for testing purposes, I can understand that, new game modes, like Domination, awesome for fresh ideas, but making it for sentence "because it's awezum!"... give me a break. If someone wants to add something new, and keep it still balanced, he gots lot of work on that. But if he wants only entertain people, and (maybe) gain some (or bit of) respect, then I don't got nothing agaist it (if he doesn't steal people from "standard" servers.)
If we add guns&classes right now to 1.2, the fine line of balance fucks up, especially when the developing stage is in critical moment now. So, you can throw your ideas to trash bin for now, and let the devs make 1.2 as it should be, shall we?
1.2 is for professionals.
No, not really. But professionally made! :laugh:
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Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience.
That doesnt make any sense. A "real" gaming experience? People play a game to have fun, and most people dont give 2 shits about the purist mentality you have. Not everyone wants to play the same uniform flavor of tremulous for 10 years. Take a glance at the server popularity stats, for instance.. it tells a different story than you are.
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Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience.
That doesnt make any sense. A "real" gaming experience? People play a game to have fun, and most people dont give 2 shits about the purist mentality you have. Not everyone wants to play the same uniform flavor of tremulous for 10 years. Take a glance at the server popularity stats, for instance.. it tells a different story than you are.
And how much of that is due to gaming the system of the default listings in 1.1 hmm?
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Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience.
That doesnt make any sense. A "real" gaming experience? People play a game to have fun, and most people dont give 2 shits about the purist mentality you have. Not everyone wants to play the same uniform flavor of tremulous for 10 years. Take a glance at the server popularity stats, for instance.. it tells a different story than you are.
And how much of that is due to gaming the system of the default listings in 1.1 hmm?
Thats a load of crap and you know it. If the server list had ANYTHING to do with popularity.. the first 5 or 6 servers (that are vanilla btw) wouldnt be perpetually empty, more people would play AA/w/t/BB etc, and hardly anyone would play X (because X isnt even on the first page of the default server list and hasnt been for almost a year)
The best indicator of whether or not a server will get new players is whether or not it has low latency and has players already on it (the more the better) Popularity is self-perpetuating, and as long as the gameplay is balanced, entertaining, and is well moderated new players will return for more. THOSE are statistically accurate reasons why modded servers have more players on the average than vanilla servers. Not the server list. ::)
In fact, im sure that if tremulous never had any mods it would already be dead. Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself. They have done a LOT for this community by way of attracting and retaining players who would otherwise have left. Its too bad there is this North VS South mentality.
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The only players that X is "attracting" and "retaining" are player that play X, not Tremulous. Many newbies come and play X as apposed to Tremulous which actually lessens the Tremulous playerbase. So in fact, X is helping to kill Tremulous. My guess to why this happens is that X has a very low learning curve when compared to Tremulous, either from the mods or the playerbase that X has.
Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself.
If the "gamplay concept" is Tremulous, making a mod that completely changes Tremulous gameplay is not a testament to helping Tremulous live longer. If the "gameplay concept" is the mod, then people who play mods do make mods.
Now I don't mean to rip on you, but when you say you're mod has saved Tremulous, I have to disagree.
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Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience.
That doesnt make any sense. A "real" gaming experience? People play a game to have fun, and most people dont give 2 shits about the purist mentality you have. Not everyone wants to play the same uniform flavor of tremulous for 10 years. Take a glance at the server popularity stats, for instance.. it tells a different story than you are.
And how much of that is due to gaming the system of the default listings in 1.1 hmm?
Thats a load of crap and you know it. If the server list had ANYTHING to do with popularity.. the first 5 or 6 servers (that are vanilla btw) wouldnt be perpetually empty, more people would play AA/w/t/BB etc, and hardly anyone would play X (because X isnt even on the first page of the default server list and hasnt been for almost a year)
The best indicator of whether or not a server will get new players is whether or not it has low latency and has players already on it (the more the better) Popularity is self-perpetuating, and as long as the gameplay is balanced, entertaining, and is well moderated new players will return for more. THOSE are statistically accurate reasons why modded servers have more players on the average than vanilla servers. Not the server list. ::)
In fact, im sure that if tremulous never had any mods it would already be dead. Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself. They have done a LOT for this community by way of attracting and retaining players who would otherwise have left. Its too bad there is this North VS South mentality.
You guys are the South and you're gonna lose
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I'm going to once again change my opinion of what happened. But everything's opinion really to begin with. You can't give a definite reason. People leave and don't tell anyone and that's that.
Anyways, the skilled players from all scenes up and left because they either became busy with life, bored with the game in general, or bored with the fact that scrims became shit (at least in North America) due to clans crouching (annoying stupid bullshit), clans camping MORE THAN EVER, and the continuation of fucking retards being an hour late to start a scrim. Lack of a new version is tied into this I suppose, unless a QVM fix could've fixed the no headshot crouch thing.
With the exit of good players for any reason came smaller clans. A certain number of players MUST be present for a scrim to be balanced, or aliens get the advantage on paper. 4v4s became rare, which just meant one side getting dominated. Also, public game balance, which used to be awesome because you'd see many pros vs. many pros, was disrupted. All new players no longer had chances to get a team that wasn't stupid, so they got raped. They either quit or looked for new servers, inevitably ending up in X or KoRx some other place where there is no skill or even a chance for a clan scene, and it's just a whole bunch of fucktards who don't know how to admin, though AA did have abuse. Doesn't matter, part of my reasoning includes the game falling off a cliff because of clans like AA, even if they were actually skilled.
And finally, the clan scene was completely split through continents, NOT really because of timezones, but because the majority of the other continents couldn't stop filling Olympic swimming pools with tears over unlagged and how much they didn't like it. Fucking stupid really, you can't have fair intercontinental scrims without something to keep away most of the disadvantages brought on by high ping lagged.
Anyways, that's just me.
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It's true, a lot of what Dracone said. Pub matches ended up being 1v1s + new players joining in and padding credits by the time I left. Some left due to boredom or the qvms or scrims and such, but I think the vast majority of us just realized we couldn't be 21 years old and still spend six hours a day playing video games. My personal opinion still stands that GPP's release thinned an already too-thin herd, but at least some people seem to be enjoying it. Tremulous was special to me and a lot of others. I think for Tremulous to survive there needs to be an official release of a better (1.2?) Tremulous, and just hope that the new generation of players loves it as much as we did. We've had our turn, and everyone who didn't play has missed out. For me, now, the game could be improved with the best updates any game has seen, and I still couldn't find time to play. Great game this was, and I hope a newer generation of players gets to share the same feelings that we did. Remember when our palms could sweat during an intense match? Maybe times were different, or maybe we just grew out of it. I still love the people I played with when we played, and whether the game sees a revival or not, it was worth MY time. I hope it's worth everyone else's. <3s
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I feel like something of a pretender or charlatan to put my petty name here to complete this triforce. But I happened to have some thoughts and I feel that insight never hurts.
Tremulous is a unique kind of game. It's advertised as such because it blends RTS elements with FPS. However, it shares the uninspired type of dev cycle that FPS games get. Freeware shooters like nexuiz or ut4 are open-ended in that there are lots of maps, weapons, powerups, and various gametypes such that the game is never exhausted. You can DM with friends or something and then when you notice that you have enough people in the server, switch to CTF and go another six hours. You never play one single thing long enough to "solve" it, so the gameplay is fresh for a long time.
Thus to release a game like that, you basically release it and then leave it alone. When bugs crop up, you fix them, but you've provided the essentials (maps, weapons, gametypes) to form a community of fragging.
In Tremulous, we largely stagnated to ATCS. Remember, in Tremulous there is only one gametype. Team elimination, if you will. Here we already have one fewer factor in gameplay freshness than a regular FPS. Therefore the community will get bored that much faster.
The community had its own problem of tending to cut down the maps to just ATCS. I still don't know what the exact reason is. ATCS may be easier on the eyes because it's so bland, or easy to understand and start playing, or just fastest to load on Polish computers. This would further reduce boredom on top of only having one gametype.
Actually, that's not true; I think I do know the reason. We tended to perceive ATCS as the most balanced arena. Places like the Lair were what, 60/40? 55/45? The fact that ATCS was grinded so much more than other maps made us more sure about its balance. However, map balance itself is a non-entity. Layout balance is the big thing. Default Transit layout games would result in either 1 minute games or <servertimelimit> games.
Also on the point of balance, largely servers played the same game, but certain things like SST's (contain your laughter and bear with me) higher BPs or lagged/unlagged, these things affect balance. It *would* affect balance to play nonstandard layouts. You can change the whole face of a map just by switching bases around. Well, except for ATCS or other symmetrical examples.
About balance in general:
For an infinitesimal timing, S1 H > S1 A until a heavy alien arrives. Then ofc S1 A > S1 H. S2 means more to humans than it does to aliens, because the powerhouse that is the goon is the same. So the goon loses parity against now-helmeted humans. In general S3 A vs S3 H is fucked, and should be congratulated as a point in the game that resembles a conventional shooter in that it's just a party. However, on a map like ATCS, range and AOE of humans will tend to overtake aliens, whose huge size (as a function of their power) in areas of low maneuverability has hampered their mobility even more. This brings me to the main difference in the way H and A play the game.
Because the S2 human has great economy against the goon powerhouse (a human being 310 credits, under two dretch kills' worth, and 310/2000 being a possible 15.5% of bank; and a goon being 3 evos, 3 naked kills' worth, and 3/9 being a possible 33.3% of bank, these are not proportionate), a key human strategy will be to work as a boa constrictor against the aliens. Every dretch feed valuable as it provides real funds to bring down goons. Every goon kill furthering the tilt of the alien star players. By sheer attrition the humans seek to withstand the aliens' aggressive charges until they can walk into the alien base being assailed by nothing but a web of obnoxious spiders and some green roach spitting while typing asldkfjalskdfjalskjfdla;skdjf. This is the only way to play a protracted game as humans. There are other ways to play, but they involve short games based on lucky psaw routes to eggs and lack of grangers. Also, if you can just kill your enemy with rifles before they can goon (in 1 minute), that's a way. But it isn't a full game.
Because the aliens lose aggressive windows as time goes on, they would prefer to smash the humans in a blitz campaign. Thus if you use unrestrained aggression successfully from the beginning and out-tech the humans, they don't have their chance to beat you in a game of prophylaxis because you simply presented too many threats and they succumb. If on the other hand you're dying more often than killing, you turn to desperation windows of base backstabs and lucky flanks/accumulated gangrapes. This is bad because your human opponents are playing a game where they minimize their mistakes and capitalize on each of yours. Even if you make no mistakes, they're trying to minimize theirs so that they can let the natural human balance give them a marginal advantage for victory. But if your early aggression didn't really snowball, you have to rely on the humans fucking up.
The last timing for S3 aliens is when they're fighting S3 humans and have banked up enough evos for that one storm attack. That's a really bad place to be in. In a public game, it's different because the balance of larger team sizes combined with the idiocy of public human players means that S3 aliens have actually lots of food in the form of naked lucifer cannons and chainsuit rifles. But in a real match, that aggression has to pay off so that by the time SD comes, humans are just barely still S2 or something and you can wither their base with hard work and lots of screaming goon around the corner sniping action.
It may be possible to infuse RTS elements into other gametypes and still call the game Tremulous. In other words, perhaps not as far as the instagib human only server, but what about that Domination server and the coop vs AI mods? These things can all liven gameplay.
Crouching sucked a little bit, but it's just the humans final way of maximizing their effectiveness in a safe, stranglehold victory. This is because the S1 window is the first, but also the biggest, opportunity for alien aggression. Balancing the game, balance changes, balance mods, none of it's necessary. More maps and layouts only. The old SST market for supersize games needs supersize maps. New gametypes need maps designed just for them. Layouts need to incorporate lessons of the game's history. The fact that the teams play differently isn't a complaint, but it means that it has to be handled differently than a homogenous FPS where everyone runs the same speed and can use the same infinite bag of weapons.
As far as I remember.
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Lol at players who quit making three-page emotional analyses about why they quit.
blah
As to this, get on with the times. 1.2 GPP has fixed these issues a long time ago.
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Lol at players who quit making three-page emotional analyses about why they quit.
blah
As to this, get on with the times. 1.2 GPP has fixed these issues a long time ago.
Sig? :P
(http://cron.unvanquished.net/imgboard/src/1255747286279.png)
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Wow, where on earth has this tl;dr emofest of a thread been hiding for so long, it's epic, load times on polish computers as an explanation for the popularity of ATCS is a particular highlight.
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Porting trem to a new game engine would ip it's appeal to people who do not directly pay attention to gameplay until they get "addicted". Yes I know the logistics but we have the gameplay down and it could continue to evolve gameplay afterward.
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Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience.
That doesnt make any sense. A "real" gaming experience? People play a game to have fun, and most people dont give 2 shits about the purist mentality you have. Not everyone wants to play the same uniform flavor of tremulous for 10 years. Take a glance at the server popularity stats, for instance.. it tells a different story than you are.
And how much of that is due to gaming the system of the default listings in 1.1 hmm?
Thats a load of crap and you know it. If the server list had ANYTHING to do with popularity.. the first 5 or 6 servers (that are vanilla btw) wouldnt be perpetually empty, more people would play AA/w/t/BB etc, and hardly anyone would play X (because X isnt even on the first page of the default server list and hasnt been for almost a year)
The best indicator of whether or not a server will get new players is whether or not it has low latency and has players already on it (the more the better) Popularity is self-perpetuating, and as long as the gameplay is balanced, entertaining, and is well moderated new players will return for more. THOSE are statistically accurate reasons why modded servers have more players on the average than vanilla servers. Not the server list. ::)
In fact, im sure that if tremulous never had any mods it would already be dead. Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself. They have done a LOT for this community by way of attracting and retaining players who would otherwise have left. Its too bad there is this North VS South mentality.
The purist mentality of never changing game play is what has been the death cry of almost ALL Open source or modded games. When new players come along and say, Hmm, I think I will try Tremulous, they usually try out more than one server... Despite what the Purists here think that they will Automatically go to X (amazing how nobody Bitches about A Server and it almost vanilli trem... that would confuse most of the Trolls here) the majority of Noobs go to many servers in the beginning. This is where YOUR attitudes as purists is the death of trem. You find out someone is from X, has played X, or doesnt want to murder the XserverX group staff and decide they are public enemy #1 on the Troll Boards and in-game.
The Mod scene will be what keeps Tremulous Alive. The only reason purists bitch so much is that THE modded serves have done more than the devs will. This is in part to the Devs trying to make the game as stock and purist oriented as possible. Good luck with that.... GPP is the end of Trem, and the pruists are to blame. Not populated servers that actually do something in the community.
FYI - XserverX had a perfectly Vanilla trem Server for a while... It was closed because NO ONE wanted to play there. Unlike the usual laggy 'Official' servers and elitest punk filled others, we staffed it with good guys (we have some vanilla lovers in our group... But dont even LISTEN to me....) and guess what... NO ONE ever really played... So this fantasy of 'Vanilla Tremulous FTW!! Hurr Hurr Huurrr!!' is just that a fantasy of a bunch of aging gamers wanting to keep the nostalgia of Trem. When I have seen people come on one of our servers and having fun and staying in the community, I know that the goal is simple. Attract NEW players. Not keep the Old School Grumps happy... As they will only be happy with a stock 1.1 clone and that is what is killing trem... No changes. Well, not anywhere but in the populated servers.
The only players that X is "attracting" and "retaining" are player that play X, not Tremulous. Many newbies come and play X as apposed to Tremulous which actually lessens the Tremulous playerbase. So in fact, X is helping to kill Tremulous. My guess to why this happens is that X has a very low learning curve when compared to Tremulous, either from the mods or the playerbase that X has.
Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself.
If the "gamplay concept" is Tremulous, making a mod that completely changes Tremulous gameplay is not a testament to helping Tremulous live longer. If the "gameplay concept" is the mod, then people who play mods do make mods.
Now I don't mean to rip on you, but when you say you're mod has saved Tremulous, I have to disagree.
This in and of itself makes no sense Kiwi... From what the general definition of an open source game is, its a game developed, maintained and taken care of by the community. This is in fact what Tremulous IS. You can try and categorize Tremulous into its vanilla bland and boring box, but the fact is, these games HAVE to constantly evolve, as they are easily out paced by games that are developed and ran with better engines, better graphics, etc... This is NATURAL evolution of FPS games and computer games in general. If you see someone who has the coice of playing Civilization vs Civilization V... Well, you know what will happen... People go for the newest and best thing. Tremulous is a ghost on the intarwebz nowadays and the lack of change is the cause. The change happens on the Modded servers (As seen in server rankings) but as they are shunned by the elites who grasp the title of Official Trem whatever, the game is being ignored by the FPS community at large. When one has to look up software from 3 years ago to play the game it is a little dumb.
A good example of a good thing that was abandoned due to the lack of support from the Officials was Tremfusion. Tremfusion was a much needed upgrade to the MS-DOS (Ok now I feel old, as all the kids on this forum are googling MS-DOS) style client that was stock Trem. People in the elites ranks HATED Tremfusion almost as much as XserverX. This led to the project starting to fade into nothing and now the Dev team there is working on a new game... Sorry guys but the world is passing us by and you guys are too busy screaming over balance changes and modded servers... Oblivious to the doom comming up on Trem.
You guys are the South and you're gonna lose
You dont even deserve an answer...
(http://www.us-american-flags.com/confederate/flgrebel.gif)
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TL;DR Thread :D
Tremulous will stay alive no matter what
(at least I can guarantee that it will keep breathing)
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And no offense, but the reason we have these problems in the community is people say this:
TL;DR Thread
That crap is not gonna keep trem alive at all... Spam.... Pitiful in a meaningful topic.
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just that a fantasy of a bunch of aging gamers wanting to keep the nostalgia of Trem.
Caught me. Not a bad post lucifer. I'm a purist myself, but I like your spirit. You mean well and you care about the game. I wish you the best.
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So, I read through these 5 pages so I don't come into this Topic completely ignorant...and I found myself laughing a lot.
The point of this thread was to figure out how to better Trem and keep it alive[Correct me if I'm wrong KamikOzzy], but all that's getting done is flaming the servers that do get popularity and keep/gain players.
If you're wondering how to better the new players so they tell they're friends and so on and so forth: look in the mirror [or reflection of your monitor hehe]. Mudslinging popular places since they don't "teach nooby players enough" gets us nowhere. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. Quit sitting there pointing the finger only because they have more players.
What I've seen from KoRx: Close clan, Close players, and people always willing to lend a hand to those new to the server.
What I've seen from X: LOTS of trolls with Admins taking their honest time to tend to the server so you get the best experience possible. I have seen Admins give their utmost help to noobs [and I myself have helped plenty] and handle situations should they arise.
What I've seen from AA: Decently fun server, but I lag so it kinda takes away from gameplay...fun nonetheless. The Admins ban/abuse anyone that "pisses them off" and are utterly horrid at spotting hacks [my observation]. Thrice have I actually spotted hackers for them and they don't pay attention and instead ban good players for "hacks." Quite funny to be honest.
What I've seen from ACR: A decently close clan that is pretty good with players and very informative, from what I've seen.
Now obviously there are A LOT more places that have come and gone, places that I didn't mention, but these are the main behemoths IMO.
So, I'd like to point out a server named "W" for a moment. If you have played there, you will see it is heavily modded. Nearly all the players lack a GUID or know how to rename themselves. So, why do they stay that way? Well, most of the Admins there weren't fully taught either. Are they to blame? No. They should have learned from us, so they may better the current noobs.
The Elitist players here love pointing the finger and yelling at nublets, but aren't you being a bit contradictive? You wish them to play better; yet, won't do anything about it....Which is why they stay that way. Now, I'm not saying you have an obligation to teach them, but more of a request to.
I was brought onto Trem via clan and was taught by a clan on a vanilla server. I have moved around since then and found a home on the X+A servers. Before X+A, I was roaming around KoRx, AA, clan servers, etc etc. The thing that sets apart Xservers, is that it has an Admin Staff that....wait for it.....wait for it...........WAIT FOR IT......Cares. Yup, you heard me. Our Admins are trained via older Admins and so on and so forth. Your complaints of us not training them, are not that we don't train them, it's that we don't train them for YOUR gameplay.
In essence, What will keep Trem alive? You. Now quit your bitching and do something for Tremulous.
P.S I like traveling around the servers MD whoring and whatnot; thus showing that even though I'm brought off modded servers I can still whip some fanny.
Your sexy country boy,
|BnK|LuckyCharms
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But why, why in earth can't we keep basic gameplay. Blaster wasn't ment to be super powerful killing weapon, it was ment to be bad backup weapon if you run out of bullets or didn't want to use them.
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Picking out the benefits of the unique characteristics of various servers does nothing and means nothing. Not only are you wrong on a lot of that (X server admins are fucking stupid for example), but when Tremulous was legit "alive," it was a great community because people could go to various places and play pretty much the same game, so unity across servers was strong.
Overall, what is desired is at least one big living unified community in the game, not a whole bunch of mod separated ones with no potential alone. That's not a living game, that's just stupid.
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But why, why in earth can't we keep basic gameplay.
Why must everyone conform to all of your "utopian" gameplay?Blaster wasn't ment to be super powerful killing weapon, it was ment to be bad backup weapon if you run out of bullets or didn't want to use them.
And one might argue that BP wasn't meant/supposed to be unlimited, yet [W]onderland did that, uBP did that.
Picking out the benefits of the unique characteristics of various servers does nothing and means nothing.
And picking out YOUR ideas of their cons does?
(X server admins are fucking stupid for example)
And AA admins are? "Bad Building" is totally a legit reason for a Perma ban....Be more hypocritical why don't ya. "Xservers keeps nooby players nubs"...Since you ban them they come directly to us LOL.
it was a great community because people could go to various places and play pretty much the same game, so unity across servers was strong.
Overall, what is desired is at least one big living unified community in the game, not a whole bunch of mod separated ones with no potential alone. That's not a living game, that's just stupid.
It's not unified because people like you don't respect other people's ideas nor tastes. No potential alone? AA does fine, X+A does fine, W+Z does fine, Aussie Assault does fine, uBP does fine. All different styles of gameplay. So, in a nutshell....you're saying that unless people conform to your Vanilla Ice Cream, rather than try Cookie Dough or even Mango, they're wrong for providing a different type of experience for a different type of palate?
You can't blame a game's loss of popularity on servers, Trem is just getting old and more upon more games are stepping in front of it.
And look, arguing and mud-slinging is totally getting us somewhere. [/sarcasm]
P.S @Drazi: I used [W]onderland an example, I honestly have no bad opinion of [W]onderland nor yourself.
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soo many posts; tldr.
Anyways i've contributed my part to trem: i 'advertise it' to people at school. already convinced like 6 people and 3 from primary school but some of them said 'too hard'
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The computer club at my school held a gaming tournament and I convinced them to use Tremulous as the game. We actually brought in money buy charging for admissions.
This was done by showing a promotional video made by the (eVo) clan in the class meetings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czfDEb9XfMs
The video above has some awesome footage and quality that even players of the newest paid fps game thought was cool.
I know you guys are trying to promote 1.2 but I am just saying this is what I did for 1.1.
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The computer club at my school held a gaming tournament
I am jealous to the extremes. Honestly. :'(
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Yea, it was loads of fun even though they didn't allow me to play haha
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for the first time when reading a long paragraph: NOT - tl;dr!
I'd agree with the guy who wrote that long paragraph (forgot name, and my internet browser won't let me scroll down due to it glitching)
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Porting trem to a new game engine would ip it's appeal to people who do not directly pay attention to gameplay until they get "addicted". Yes I know the logistics but we have the gameplay down and it could continue to evolve gameplay afterward.
Wrong. It's been attempted several times, but because it is such a lengthy process, many projects just die out before it is finished.