How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive

[KamikOzzy]

So, I've seen a whole load of topics about what Tremulous needs to do to stay alive. I'm just about sick of suggestions =/

Everyone seems to blame development, server operators, and even forum administrators. I'm going to steal and modify a famous line that I believe fits quite nicely: Ask not what Tremulous development can do for us, ask what we can do for Tremulous Development.

Step one is play the game. Play it often, and encourage others to do the same. Not enough good players out there? Guess who can change that: you. If you believe the skilled players are unfriendly, I might have to agree with you, but that doesn't mean you can't become the exception to the rule. If you think you are kept from getting better because of the skilled players not helping, get over it and stop making excuses. Noone helped me become ready to join a clan like Zubs, but rather, I made myself ready, and I promise it isn't that hard.

The greatest gift you can give to trem, other than being a friendly high-level player, is to actually make things. Find out what you're good at. Maybe you can make models, or maps, or even qvms.

Keep the community in mind when you mod anything. There are tons of huge, beautiful maps out there that nobody plays. Try and make your maps playable before they are presentable. A few more maps as balanced as ATCS could do worlds of good for the game. Same for modding. It's much easier (and more fun) as a modder to create wild settings than it is to implement new, balanced features, but the community will, if anything, suffer from dumbass mods.

Stick it out. Eventually, whether we like it or not, Tremulous will be reduced to a few hardcore players who refuse to give it up. Be one of those people. If we have 200 diehards with us we can still have decent games and even clan matches. With 50 of us the chances for diversity in gameplay narrows.

Don't be quiet. If you think the direction 1.2 or anything else is going is shit, tell them so...just maybe not in that way. Constructive criticism can help a modder know what people want and need, rather than just implementing features for the sake of it. Remember when you yourself become the developer to keep an open mind. If you and your development team are the only people who are very optimistic about your mod, chances are the playerbase isn't digging it. Run some servers, and invite some friends. If you have a good project, I will go as far as getting it populated (if only for a couple weeks or so) for you. If people are constantly showing up, you know you have done something worthwhile for the Trem community.

Above all, thank the people who ARE doing great things for us. TJW, Lakitu7, K-otic/Exclamation/Volt, Superpie, Your Face, Supertanker, Khalsa - just to name a few - deserve thanks and appreciation. If you post a thank you in the topic for whatever they have done, they will be motivated to do even more for us.

Have fun, play the game, be your best and kindest, and you will help the game. Tremulous has no dreams of being on the cover of EGM, it's a medium-sized mod and it's going well. All we have to do is maintain it, and it will live on for years to come.

Thanks for reading <3

[Archangel]

lock and sticky please

[Hendrich]

lock and sticky please

Seconded, I believe KamikOzzy couldn't have proved his point any truer. We should encourage and contribute to Tremulous devlelopment, not critisize it.
Btw, this thread is a play on words on Stick's thread, isn't it? You meanie. 

[SlackerLinux]

i think you should've made note of amanieu to your list too hes doing alot of fixes/code for tremulous and probably contributes more than anyone else atm. i know you said to just name a few but the volume of work he does he should get a meantion

[Seffylight]

That's all nice. Also, if you like the game, and feel that you've gotten about tenbux worth of entertainment out of it, then donate.

[KamikOzzy]

Truefacts. It may not help get anything done, but Timbo deserves it...not to mention, you get one of those kick-ass little logos by your name.

[Darth Futuza]

I'd like to point out one thing, to the people who think Tremulous is dying:

Not everyone likes to play on the internet (so yes, the internet community may be dying).  I know probably about 20-25 people in my little town, who simply play LAN games, because they believe the internet is full of rude, sarcastic, nasty people... so they keep to themselves, nonetheless they like fun freeware games I feed them.  And that's just people I know.

We may actually have more fans than we realize...

[Lakitu7]

Pretty much, yeah. People need to stop being so incredibly whiny about this and that which the game should do to "improve", splitting the community into many pieces over very minor differences in opinions and preferences. If you enjoy playing Tremulous, then play Tremulous. All the arguments and factionalization and power struggles don't actually do anything but hurt this game that everyone here likes to play.

At the end of the day, yes, all that will be left are the hardcore players. The competitive and clan scene keep that alive far more than the casuals playing LOL CRAZY MODs ever will. Indeed it does help when those players are friendly too, but even if not, they give us something to strive for. A large part of why I kept playing this was from my time spectating the great players of the day and working toward having their skill. And while scrims/matches aren't without their share of annoyances, they do offer more strategic teamplay than one finds on the average pub server-- more specifically, the teamplay and strategy that specifically make this game different from the legions of deathmatch FPS out there. If I'd downloaded this game, connected, and seen only 32v32 camp/spam fests with 999 BP, I'd sure have deleted it in a hurry. As you said, in a community this small, all actions have consequences, be that good mods or bad mods, good players or bad players, good maps or bad maps, friendly players or assholes or griefers. The most important thing for the continued survival of the game is what a new player sees on the first server he connects to. If he/she first sees good players playing a balanced, strategic game, he/she will stick around.

So, from my personal perspective, thank you back, "hardcore" and competitive players (who may or may not be in clans). Yes, you are the players that keep this game alive and give me a reason to keep producing code for it. Please be nice to newbs, though.

Let's put it in big beautiful bold:
What Tremulous needs to stay alive is for intelligent people to promote it and play it intelligently.

Agreed (mostly) and sticked. However, I do think that a "good" player so far as helping the game is not as much about skill as attitude. An intelligent player who tries hard but has crappy aim is still a great player for the growth of the game if he plays often, is friendly, and genuinely enjoys playing.

Disclaimer because people are morons: blah blah I only speak for myself, obviously blah blah

[kevlarman]

However, I do think that a "good" player so far as helping the game is not as much about skill as attitude. An intelligent player who tries hard but has crappy aim is still a great player for the growth of the game if he plays often, is friendly, and genuinely enjoys playing.

trem doesn't really need good aim (before i got rusty i was very decent at trem, but if you've seen me play any other fps you'd see i can't hit the broad side of a barn)

[gareth]

I know probably about 20-25 people in my little town, who simply play LAN games, because they believe the internet is full of rude, sarcastic, nasty people...

 

trem is a zombie.

[khalsa]

Excellent KamikOzzy, you hit the nail right on the head.

(also thanks for the thanks, really does work >.< )


Khalsa

[gareth]

this is very pointless.

but kamikozzy you are dead wrong. trem died because the devs abandoned it. i cant say i blame them but thats pretty much how it is, no amount of new forum themes is going to change that.

The greatest gift you can give to trem, other than being a friendly high-level player, is to actually make things. Find out what you're good at. Maybe you can make models, or maps, or even qvms.

Keep the community in mind when you mod anything. There are tons of huge, beautiful maps out there that nobody plays. Try and make your maps playable before they are presentable. A few more maps as balanced as ATCS could do worlds of good for the game. Same for modding. It's much easier (and more fun) as a modder to create wild settings than it is to implement new, balanced features, but the community will, if anything, suffer from dumbass mods.

people did all that stuff, years ago, people dont play them because it was/is a pain in the ass without a new official release. *

trem is in its zombie state now, refusing to properly die. a few hard core players still remain, some crusty old forum regulars are still dishing out the thousand word posts, the dev team is now 3 times the size it was originally - and 1/42th as productive, Lava Croft has finally been banned...

somebody kill it please! have mercy on this poor thing!

*ok there was some heplful stuff done server side (eg. lakitu), and that was good and helpful, but it worked only because the devs didnt have to do anything.

[kevlarman]

get your facts straight gareth: lava wasn't banned, he deleted his own account.

[Seffylight]

I think it's incredibly unfair, inflammatory, and just generally incorrect to say that "the devs abandoned [tremulous]". The devs never abandoned Tremulous. While progress perhaps slowed down after the initial release of 1.1, development has continued steadily and, within the last year or so, has significantly sped up. You can't track the level of devotion by developers to a project solely on the basis of whether or not there has been an official release; and it's simply an unfair and unfounded insult to claim that they abandoned the project that has been in the works for (iirc) eight years now when, all the time, proof of ongoing development is being provided.

If anyone abandoned Tremulous, it's the type of people like you that throw around these ridiculous and overreactionary claims. The people like you that put on a facade of wanting what's best for Tremulous, when all you do is further try to undermine and decrease the general community morale. You may not blame the devs for what you perceive as abandoning Tremulous, but I very personally blame you and everyone like you who can seem to do nothing but jump into every thread about development and 1.2 spouting snide remarks at the dev team's ongoing work, with little sidenotes of "lol dying community, vaporwarez, trem is ded".

I appreciate that you've personally done some good things for the community and the game, but if that's the kind of attitude you're going to bring along with your contributions, then you might as well have not done them in the first place.

[Syntac]

Gareth, have you even tried the newest changes on MGDev? Have you bothered to notice the development games that happen every week, rain or shine? Your post is full of massively incorrect facts that you apparently have not even attempted to research. Is the fact that the forums are still extremely active not sufficient evidence?

In short: Please pull your head out of your arse.

[Bissig]

One point that still bothers me and will until 1.2:

Why is there still an outdated client at the download page? Is it really too much for the ego of the devs to put at least tjws client there or anyone with a decent feature set? (Or has it been silently updated without any form of notice ;-O)

[SlackerLinux]

get your facts straight gareth: lava wasn't banned, he deleted his own account.

really?? aw lava was a good mod

[Roanoke]

Don't be quiet. If you think the direction 1.2 or anything else is going is shit, tell them so...just maybe not in that way. Constructive criticism can help a modder know what people want and need, rather than just implementing features for the sake of it. Remember when you yourself become the developer to keep an open mind. If you and your development team are the only people who are very optimistic about your mod, chances are the playerbase isn't digging it. Run some servers, and invite some friends. If you have a good project, I will go as far as getting it populated (if only for a couple weeks or so) for you. If people are constantly showing up, you know you have done something worthwhile for the Trem community.

The name's X. TremX.
I have never seen it empty, yet it sucks.

[Syntac]

The name's X. TremX.
I have never seen it empty, yet it sucks.

I assume you're talking about the mod TremX, and while it doesn't entirely embody the "true" spirit of Tremulous, I think it's a decent alternative implementation of the gameplay.

If, on the other hand, you're talking about the server X and the rest of its kind, I couldn't agree more.

Note for future reference: TremX and the X server are not the same thing.

[Plague Bringer]

One point that still bothers me and will until 1.2:

Why is there still an outdated client at the download page? Is it really too much for the ego of the devs to put at least tjws client there or anyone with a decent feature set? (Or has it been silently updated without any form of notice ;-O)

Agreed. That is insanely annoying.

I think that gareth's point has merit. MGdev should've been up a year ago.

[Roanoke]

The name's X. TremX.
I have never seen it empty, yet it sucks.

I assume you're talking about the mod TremX, and while it doesn't entirely embody the "true" spirit of Tremulous, I think it's a decent alternative implementation of the gameplay.

If, on the other hand, you're talking about the server X and the rest of its kind, I couldn't agree more.

Note for future reference: TremX and the X server are not the same thing.

I was under the impression that X and the other servers run tremx, no?

[Amanieu]

no

[Ingar]

I think it's incredibly unfair, inflammatory, and just generally incorrect to say that "the devs abandoned [tremulous]". The devs never abandoned Tremulous. While progress perhaps slowed down after the initial release of 1.1, development has continued steadily and, within the last year or so, has significantly sped up. You can't track the level of devotion by developers to a project solely on the basis of whether or not there has been an official release; and it's simply an unfair and unfounded insult to claim that they abandoned the project that has been in the works for (iirc) eight years now when, all the time, proof of ongoing development is being provided.

If anyone abandoned Tremulous, it's the type of people like you that throw around these ridiculous and overreactionary claims. The people like you that put on a facade of wanting what's best for Tremulous, when all you do is further try to undermine and decrease the general community morale. You may not blame the devs for what you perceive as abandoning Tremulous, but I very personally blame you and everyone like you who can seem to do nothing but jump into every thread about development and 1.2 spouting snide remarks at the dev team's ongoing work, with little sidenotes of "lol dying community, vaporwarez, trem is ded".

I appreciate that you've personally done some good things for the community and the game, but if that's the kind of attitude you're going to bring along with your contributions, then you might as well have not done them in the first place.

Gareth's poor choice of words does not negate a simple fact: a lot of people have the feeling that the devs have abandoned 1.1 a long time ago.
This thread is about Keeping Tremulous Alive and because 1.2 isn't even born at this point, I take it is about keeping 1.1 alive.

I've seen it many times, both as mapper and server operator: people do not play customs maps. You spend months on a map only to see it never gets played. On the server, we had to remove the custom maps because every time one would come up, players mostly disconnected. It sucks for the other players (empty servers are no fun) and it obviously sucks for the mappers as well, because their maps do no get any playtime. It's not very encouraging.

Suppose you just found out about Tremulous, you would probably go the official website and download the latest version. There's nothing that even remotely
hints about http downloads, guids, etc yet you do need them if you want do some serious gaming. The usual argument here is that everything can be found on the forum, but the fact is that people do not read. I speak from experience here: the first people to cry for help are those who did not read the notice in large bold red letters at the top of the installation instructions. And this is, unfortunatly, not a joke.

In my opinion there are two dominant feelings at the moment: players realize a game is not made overnight and are patiently awaiting 1.2. The day it
is released, they will download it and give it a try. The other feeling is that Tremulous 1.1.1 should have been released ages ago. These feelings are not
mutually exclusive.

The fact that the myth surrounding 1.2 has grown to almost epic proportions isn't very helpfull either. It's not a technical problem. It's a about
perception and management. There is no reality on the Internet, there is perception only.

[player1]

What was it that +OPTIMUS+ said? Something like, "Trem is an RPG, only the experience points aren't gathered in-game." It is hard for new people to find a simple, complete client and a generally-accepted map pack (5 or 7 playable maps that get actual game time on non-obnoxious servers - not just a giant repository of every map ever made and never played), which are often only found at the websites of servers, clans or other cool groups of neato folks, who are somewhat independent of "Official Tremulous", who- & whatever that may be at any given point in time. As was said, perception is king, and a certain, semi-transparent clarity helps a lot, too. Of course the hard-core player-base (of old time Quakers and the people who were sturdy enough to withstand their abuse) want new players to be worthy of the helping hand which is extended to them: I can stick out my hand to help you up, but you need to get up off of your ass mostly by yourself.

That said:

@KamikOzzy: Bravo. TYFM. Well-spoke.

@gareth: A tad overstated, from my point of view.

@seffy: A most enjoyable retort.

@ingar: Agreed (by and large). A concise summation of the situation at hand, as seen by the average disinterested party. If it ain't obvious, one shouldn't assume I've got either the time or the wherewithal to find it. Unless Trem wants its player-base to consist solely of Those Who Could Figure It Out. Which, de facto, is the continuing case. A 1.1.1 client* and small add-on map pack (in the half-dozen range: non-gimmicky, extremely playable, community-made maps) somewhere nearer the Trem.net home page would help to direct more people toward gameplay and less people toward Google. <3 sig

Cheers!

*With the three or five most important client-side patches: sort-by-ping fixed, backported, with a GUID (possibly with guidserver unique ON), Options as a Play Menu item, and a noticeable, yet very concise 3 - 6 page READ-ME that explains why autodownloads are great, but why the feature is disabled by default, and how easy it is to change, what a tilde key is, and what the console is. And no forum searches necessary. A manual like the RTCW manual: "Push Q at the big green box (and if you've never heard of carry limits before, don't forget that you have to SELL that Rifle first, you raw recruit)!". With tutorial mode enabled by default, and a message that says "See Options menu to change settings" the first time you boot up the client and connect to a server. Just a little dream I had one day...

P.S. No offense to anyone who contributed to Trem documentation, but a really small list of useful newbie client commands and a brief discussion of what the heck cvars are wouldn't hurt either. I needed it a lot more than the nifty discussion of visual effects. Not that that wasn't enlightening, but I have yet to really need to know the code that makes plasma balls look so nifty. Remember Quake manuals? "This is a blaster. Do not point at self while squeezing trigger."

I am affiliated only with other bottom-feeding, non-clannish (not that there's anything wrong with it), pub-server-playing end-users like myself, and am influenced only by the vagaries of ignorance. Thank you for your time.

I hope I have offended no-one, and enlightened everyone, while also discovering new things about myself, God, and the Universe of Nature. Peace unto you, fellow Travelers of the Tribe of the Tremulous.

[Hendrich]

small list of useful newbie client commands

Do you mean client commands server-wise? I already got a website with those commands, actually, it needs to be badly updated to a new website with no crappy ads. Or do you mean client-based commands, like /cl_allowdownload 1?

[player1]

often only found at the websites of... other... folks, independent of "Official Tremulous"

a really smali list of useful newbie client commands

The point of my post is that a few things that are useful could be displayed prominently at the main tremulous.net website, and not so much at the forums or at independent sites of nice folks like you. Something very brief, written for the new-at-Tremulous, and also the new-at-Quake-based-games, the new-at-where-files-go and the new-at-QVMs/cvars/vstrs/etc.

If the list were to be hosted at Trem.net (near some kind of newbie client download center) it would be, of necessity, just a very brief list of only the most essential commands (the ones you post in threads over and over). Some lvl 0 server commands, just to get people started, without overwhelming them; AND some simple cvars, like client server unique, allow downloads, monitor settings, etc. (again just the briefest list of the most-asked-about commands). People who want to find out more can be referred to larger repositories of information. People who just want to play can find the most essential information, delivered as concisely as possible, for the lowest-common acceptable denominator of player, a Quake-style quickstart 6-page manual.

Making the damn thing work. - simple client download page, with brief, clear-cut, no-bullshit instructions that assume I am a brainless moron

Kill stuff. - the current Trem 1.1 manual

Get bonuses. - plus some stuff that was left out

Kill stuff more efficiently. - plus some other stuff about binds, non-cheat useful tweaks, monitor settings, quick (rewritten, updated) FAQs, etc.

Work together. - a two-paragraph note on fire-team tactics for Humans and Aliens; what a builder does; what rushing as a group means

Have fun. - How NOT to be a kook

That sort of thing. Hosted on the main site. A jump-start for newbs, n00bs, and ZOMFG!nubcakez0rz. If help is needed with the writing or editing, I hereby volunteer my extremely limited free time.

And thank you for also supporting Tremulous by posting a list in need of updating elsewhere. I mean that sincerely. Cheers.

[Roanoke]

Incredible how the quality of ideas generated in this thread cannot be compared to the quality of ideas of the other thread, similarly named.
Carry on.

[khalsa]

a few things that are useful could be displayed prominently at the main tremulous.net website, and not so much at the forums or at independent sites of nice folks like you. Something very brief, written for the new-at-Tremulous, and also the new-at-Quake-based-games, the new-at-where-files-go and the new-at-QVMs/cvars/vstrs/etc.

I agree.

I don't have time to do it myself however. I will have a solution for this within a week where you guys can help create it. If you would like to (locally) start crafting the "Newbies guide to tremulous" (or whathaveyou) in preparation would be great.

Khalsa

[player1]

khalsa,

I'd be happy to help. I need to do a fresh reinstall, so when I do, I'll document it, as well as re-reading all the "new to Tremulous" info I can find on the main site. That way, I'll be ready to help out with the project you are currently crafting (as you said, in about a week or so). My personal schedule is quite hectic, and entirely at the mercy of my employers (I am a mercenary backstage entertainment industry ninja), and this is the time of year where they cram in all those final events that they find out that they can afford, and cancel all the big ones that I was banking on. My next day off is either the 11th, when we will be winterizing the homestead, or the 18th, when we will finish painting the office. Yeah, life outside the Internet. Anyway, happy to contribute as much as possible, when available, even if it means cutting back ever so slightly on the fanfic skiffy thread. Thanks for the open offer to contribute, and for finding the time in your own schedule to do all of this work for free. A better Tremulous community is the one we all make together! Thanks for the reminder, and the new tone of the forums, in general, and "official response to community perceptions", in particular.

Cheers!

player1

[khalsa]

@player1: woot!

But really when I said 'you' I mean as in everyone on the forums, or at least those reading this thread. So everyone get your thinking caps on and start thinking about this! (and some other things I'll post about in a fresh thread)


****Not an "official" opinion below****
For a long long time, I did not really see the need or point of having an interim release (1.1.1 or 1.1.5 or w/e). Once I joined the dev team and saw the internal workings, and saw developers developing I saw even less need of it.

However after spending a lot of time on the forums and IRC, I've been slowly convinced of the 'point' as it were. Mappers will be happier, modders will be happier, and savvy players too. To me these are the people who by and large make up the "community" as I often see it. I've made it one of my goals to make these people happy (since I'm one of them too ;p) and do what I can around this place to make it better etc.

That being said, once things settle down in RL for me (school, work, the usual drama) hopefully I can spend some time exploring what sort of real effort is required - by myself, and by the more useful members of the dev team - in putting out an interim release, and if it's worth putting off 1.2 by however much it does. If it is cost-effective, I will definitely push hard for it, if not probably I'll share with you why not and we can move on as a community together.

Let me reiterate that DO NOT take this as any sort of "official" anything. I did not say the devs are going to do an interim release (also didn't say we won't). This is just some of my personal thoughts I would like to share with you guys