Author Topic: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2  (Read 24796 times)

Paradox

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Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« on: January 26, 2009, 03:11:11 am »
Many other games make use of Pie menus, and they are quite easy to use. Typically these games are on a console, due to the nature of Analog sticks, but not always; they can be very effective with a scroll wheel. I was reading the Menu & Interface ideas for 1.2, and drew up a concept of my own in photoshop.

I felt that this should be in its own topic as not to derail his/her topic.

Anyway, enough chat. Heres my concept of how a pie graph could look:


And now for an explanation.

This is a radial pie menu. It would be navigated using the scroll wheel, or whatever the user has bound to prev and next, typically [ and ]. Since there are 8 slices, and they are arranged in a circle, this menu would be an infinite loop type, meaning you can scroll through the list at no end. This also has the advantage that any item on the list is at most 4 away from any other item.

This is what the armory menu would look like.

If this is only stage 1, stage 2 and 3 would be either greyed out.
If the user cannot afford an item, it is greyed out.

The current users balance is in the center, just above the icon.

If an item is grey, it is would be skipped in the scroll index. This is to provide the ability to keep a list organized for visual memory, so one does not have to look at the list every time they want a new item.
The currently active weapon/upgrades are marked with checkmark(s). To sell an existing item, the user selects it and then clicks the mouse button, or whatever is bound to select. The item is now sold, and the checkmark vanishes. The credit balance updates to reflect this change.

To purchase a new item, the user rotates to which item they want to buy, and clicks the select key/mouse button. If there are no conflicts, a checkmark is placed on that item in the menu, it becomes active, and the balance reduces. If that item cannot be purchased, due to conflict, the items it conflicts with flash light white 2 times, to inform the user.

The center area, where the crosshair is, indicates which section is active. Each section has its own icon. The upgrades page has the Plus icon in the center, for example.

Not all items are listed here, notibly absent is the Construction kit. This is because this menu is the descendant of a much broader menu, with only 2 selectable options, at opposite sides of the circle; construction and weapons. Menus with fewer items always will have the same size fields, just only 2 will be scrolled to. Again, this is to preserve visual memory.

If there are more than 8 items to be listed, an more item will appear. The more icon is an elipsis (...)

If an item leads to a sub-menu, it is marked with an arrow (see level 2, 3, and upgrades).
Additionally, if a menu active is a sub menu, as this one is, there is a little X icon in the upper left corner. The user navigates back in the menu history by pressing the backspace key or something similar.

The effects used are relatively simple, and can be controlled via programming. They are limited to outer glows and masks.

------

These menus give the advantage of rapid selection of most anything. Teams, classes, buildings, etc, all can be selected using this interface. It allows users to choose items very rapidly with the mouse wheel, almost to the level of convenience and speed of binds.

Hell, this could even be used in a voice command menu, that has been mentioned many times before.

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Roanoke

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 03:48:36 am »
Seems like a decent idea. Again, there should be a client side option to change menus. I think that when you select an item (such as a gun) that you can afford, you sell your current gun (or whatever).

The Me

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 04:31:33 am »
I like it but I would suggest rotating it so there are 4 on top and 4 on bottom instead of 3 on the top and 3 on the bottom with 2 on the side. This would prevent players from having to tilt their head to read the two options on the side.

Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 04:38:09 am »
Its a circle. You cant rotate it... And its not too difficult to read sideways text. Read it 2-3 times, and you have it memorized, it never changes position.

As for the buy Roanoke mentioned, i thought of that, but also thought about how it could lead to other conflicts.

Perhaps if it was an option.

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Hendrich

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 04:43:25 am »
Sounds nice, right now I don't really see any obvious problems about the circle appearance and control design. Someone should code it.


Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 04:54:45 am »
TF is thinking about doing so.

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mooseberry

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 06:22:45 am »
Seems like an interesting idea. My only little idea is that default to select should be the middle mouse button (or item select, forget what it's called) instead of +attack. Just seems a tad easier to scroll and click in with scroll wheel than to click. Yea, it's kinda nit picking, but I thought this might just be a little easier, and wanted to let you know know. Also it's the same as how you switch between and select items while away from the armory, (scroll and scroll wheel click in) so it seems more natural to follow this pattern.

Good idea overall, we'll see what happens.
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Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 07:51:04 am »
Thats what i said. Middle mouse button.

Although this would have to be configurable, as i know some might like attack.

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mooseberry

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 07:53:48 am »
To purchase a new item, the user rotates to which item they want to buy, and clicks the select key/mouse button.

Sorry, you said this, and clicks misled me into thinking you were talking about clicking.
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Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 08:25:55 am »
Understandable, i should have been more clear in my phrasing

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Volt

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 01:01:45 pm »
Paradox amazing idea, i was actually working on a replacment for the current arm menu and would love the source files for this. I would be willing to get this working, thanks for the time and consideration.

The Me

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 01:24:49 pm »
Its a circle. You cant rotate it... And its not too difficult to read sideways text. Read it 2-3 times, and you have it memorized, it never changes position.

As for the buy Roanoke mentioned, i thought of that, but also thought about how it could lead to other conflicts.

Perhaps if it was an option.
Ah, I had thought you meant the highlight would rotate around the circle, not the circle rotate as the highlight stays still.

Urcscumug

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 01:41:55 pm »
Please note that, IIRC the theory behind pie menus, they're best when not rotated, from an ergonomical point of view. In other words, pie menus can be great, but only if coupled with muscle memory, which means that stuff needs to always be found in the same position. So instead of rotating and clicking to change the menu you go hover over a slice and it opens up another pie, centered over the parent-slice.

Oh, and put the X (close) button in the middle.
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Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 06:11:39 pm »
Im sorry if this wasnt clear. The Menu always stays in the same place. The highlight moves around the circle.

As for the X button, that wont go in the center, as that is the location of the icon. I was thinking, and thought that perhaps a breadcrumb below the menu would be a better indication of the position.
This example would be
Armory>Items

And the opening of new menus replaces the current menu. At most only one menu will ever be on screen. Think of them as slides in a presentation or something similar.

Im working on making it into flash to illustrate it a bit better.

Volt, i can give you the source, but you cannot achieve this with the current hud technology. It will require massive changes to the Menu system. Luckily, most of the preliminaries for pie menu systems already exist, so one could "human copy" them, that is, reinterpret them into tremulous.

I thought clicking would be a necessity, as one can get used to scrolling and clicking far faster than one could get used to scrolling and hovering, as hovering puts a bottleneck in, as one has to wait for the hover to be recognised to continue on. While easier at first, it would not be as fast, and would prove irritating if you opened a menu you did not intend to.

One thing i thought up yesterday was having the right mouse button act as the close for a breadcrumb layer. So the entries would be opened with the scroll wheel button, and closed with the right.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 06:17:05 pm by Paradox »

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khalsa

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 07:56:15 pm »
I've been suggesting a radial menu for the armory for a couple years now. I fully support this endeavor.


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FreaK

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2009, 10:59:07 pm »
I like it, nice concept

StevenM

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 05:14:32 pm »
its a nice idea, but the menus arent the problem imo, gameplay is and 1.2's gameplay is even worse, good day sirs

Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 05:00:59 am »
Oh then, lets not fix them, and leave them as they are in the current incarnation, as they work SO well right now.

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Kaleo

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 06:19:49 am »
What about a radial upgrades/evolve menu? From what I can gather, this menu is for the armoury (I speed read the thread) only, and it would be a shame to make the aliens miss out. What about a system more like Cysis, where you hold mouse3 and select things from a radial wheel from there. As far as upgrads go, it could be used for selecting grenades, medkit, weapon, blaster and jetpack. For Aliens, it would just be a radial evolve menu, alowing aliens to evolve on the move (which you can do in certain HUDs).
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Nux

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 12:10:27 pm »
Let me start by mentioning that I wouldn't be likely to use such a menu myself as binds do the job so effeciently already. In my opinion, anything less than the 1-key press bind might be friendly to newbies but will always be slower.

So if I were to hypothetically use a menu like this, I think I'd prefer it to have a few less submenus (perhaps none). If it requires too many clicks to achieve the desired result, you'll forfiet the advantage of having such a menu.

Also, I'd say there are better selection systems than the 'scroll select' system. This is not only because a fast scroll is less likely to end up where you want it but also when the highlighted section can be left in n positions it makes it harder to work into a twitch reflex. An example of a better system would be one in which you move your mouse in the direction of the pie slice you wish to select (while holding/toggling the menu key)- a menu system which I've known a few FPSs to have (e.g. Battlefield 2, EmpiresMod).

Don't get me wrong, I would be glad to see the current menu changed and so I'm in favour of what you're doing. If this menu is to be an improvement on the original, it might help to note what made the old menu bad. The main problem I found was that in buying new weapons, it required you to click open the selection menu, double left click to sell, double left click to buy then click to close the menu. That's 6 clicks. This is very slow compared to the one click of a bind and I strongly suggest making your menu require as few clicks as possible. Double click is to help reduce mistakes but when the cost of a mistake would just mean another single click to fix it, you might as well make it one click.

{7}wrath

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 03:56:13 pm »
++++Nux.

I agree completely. Scroll does not work. Drag is much faster and more streamlined. A lot like Cortex Command. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tigsource/1274220562/

« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 04:01:19 pm by {7}wrath »

Hendrich

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 06:23:04 pm »
I rather have scroll and drag as optional features. If you wand scroll, go ahead, if you want drag, enable it. Besides, having this feature more customizable options for every player's needs instead of one, single option is a plus. It will take more coding though (And alot more for the lazy coder), thats the setback.

Yea, more people prefer scroll but that doesn't mean every player in Tremulous agrees with that. Same with mouselook, alot of players prefer it but I do know a few who is more "At Doom's Gate" without mouse look.

Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 11:24:22 pm »
Hell, the menu could work for either drag or scroll. Could be options.

As for the evolve/build menu, im working on those right now.

I wanna upload everything in bulk.

I've made a few changes to the UI which i think are for the better, make it more readable.

-------
Also, if anyone wants to work on making a hud with me to go along with this visual style, contact me here. I would make some assets you could use. The menu is still impossible, but we could customize other aspects.

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your face

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2009, 11:30:13 pm »
Looks awesome, only binds will ruin it. :D
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Roanoke

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2009, 11:35:49 pm »
Well, we don't need an arm menu, since binds will ruin it.

Volt

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2009, 02:25:37 am »
Pick me :D, I would love to work with you on this.

Paradox

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2009, 04:03:02 am »
Well, we don't need an arm menu, since binds will ruin it.

Then lets take it out and make 1.2 have an even steeper learning curve than this version, to scare away ALL new players...

----
Update:
I have spent the past few days re-evaluating some of my earlier work, and expanding on it. I present to you the COMPLETE set of human menus.

Human Spawn selection

Base armory menu.

Stage 1 Armory Menu

Stage 2 Armory Menu

Stage 3 Armory Menu

Armory Upgrades menu.

Notice the X icon on a few things. That indicates that it cannot be equipped, but if an item is sold, it can be (eg battpack and jetpack)

Human Build menu

----

Let me clarify something. This is not to make menus replace binds. This is not to make weapons unbindable. This is to allow for the ease of entry for a new player to the game. It is designed to be faster than the current menu system, but not as fast as binds. Purchasing from the armory is something that should be done in safety unless done via binds, and this is no acception. The logical grouping of items, while it may appear inconvenient, teaches new players the significance of Stage 2 and 3, and allows them to think of them in a natural order.

Step back a moment to when you were new at trem. You likely had very little idea about most of the things in there. You probably asked "How do i use the armory" or something similar. Eventually you got help or figured it out, but you felt puzzled at first. This is designed to make that feeling go away, to make it so even the dumbest jock could pick up the game and go ok i want a weapon...armory...items...ooh stage 2...i want a FLAMETHROWER...i saw upgrades back there, i wonder whats there...back...grenades... etc

So dispense with the "This isnt as good as binds" shit. Menus will never be as good as binds. Problem is, almost all new players dont know about binds. Therefore, the menu is their only option. Do you want a bunch of new players asking "OMG HOW 2 BUY WEPON!?!" and then having to walk through the binding process? Don't say you could just say "RTFM". That doesn't work.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 04:05:28 am by Paradox »

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Roanoke

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2009, 04:39:45 am »
Well, we don't need an arm menu, since binds will ruin it.
Erm, that was sarcasm. I was reacting to all the 'binds are better' posts.

I would appreciate a link to S3 from the S2 menu. Also, how do you enter the armor menu? I propose the main arm screen having the option to go into weapons, armor, or buy a ckit. Again, I think that conflicting items should be autosold if you could then afford that new item, this would be far quicker. As for asking how to use the armory, I actually RTFM :p

Urcscumug

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2009, 12:01:00 pm »
Yeah, pick Volt. I like his hud the best. It's the most ergonomic one I've seen:
* colors are nice and easy to see, yet don't detract from the game
* placement of all the stuff is well thought out
* the most important stuff is placed bottom-center, again, easy to see yet doesn't affect the gameplay
* the radar is very good
* the DTMF binds are a god-send (but the orders and teamsays could use some rethinking)
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Volt

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Re: Pie menus for Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2009, 12:43:53 pm »
If the max itemdefs per menu file could somehow be raised, i could get a hacky version of this working with the current tremulous menu system.

Could i get transparent backgrounds for the wheels, and if possible get the photoshop source?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:46:29 pm by Volt »