1.2 Gameplay Changes

[KillerWhale]

--good shit--

If devs listen to anyone in this thread, listen to Kriegsgott.
He's one of the smartest people in this community, if not the smartest.

As for those of you who are commenting on how people didn't express themselves until now, here's how it basically went down if you don't remember:

Players: Is MGDev the official development?
Devs: Nope, MGDev is not the official developmental branch of Tremulous.
Players: Okay.
Devs: Lol just kidding yeah they're the real changes.

[Rocinante]

As for those of you who are commenting on how people didn't express themselves until now, here's how it basically went down if you don't remember:

Players: Is MGDev the official development?
Devs: Nope, MGDev is not the official developmental branch of Tremulous.
Players: Okay.
Devs: Lol just kidding yeah they're the real changes.

Don't have time to dig through IRC logs right now, but I'm pretty sure it was more like this:

Players: Is MGDev the official development?
Devs: MGDev isn't official Tremulous, Norfenstein is testing balance changes and MG's able to help him turn those changes around faster to get tangible results.

The difference is slight, but since most of the things that people object to are balance changes the point still stands; it's been known for some time that Norf was "using" the MGDev crew to help test out his ideas and see what worked and what didn't, plus he and Timbo collecting data on games to get a clearer picture of how the changes were affecting the gameplay.

[3of12]

Keep a "hidden" bind cvar similar to "boost".

+button8 is old sprinting, +button6 is new dodging.

I got much happier once I discovered this. =D


@Everything else, I like the changes alright. It is a game play changing update, but I want to give it a chance and see how the balance works out during beta.

However, I'll still probably play a 1.1 balance mod 1/4 the time once 1.2 comes out.

[Norfenstein]

marked deconstruction

Marked deconstruction has nothing to do with griefing and was never meant to. I'm sorry you thought otherwise. Admins have to be on call constantly in any case.

g_markedDeconstruct
   1 - can't build over marked structures

Here's a useful feature. Basically, if you place a structure wrong in the first place, you have to replace it in another incorrect location before you can get it quite where you want. Absolutely useless.

Agreed. Timbo included it when he first implemented marked deconstruction (a long time ago) and we never found a use for it. It should probably be removed.

# build point queuing

All this does is make gameplay entirely linear. Base rush->Game over. Why bother? All this does is makes sure that the losing side can't make a come back. This is the perfect example of what you're doing to remove the 'fun' factor from the game.

When you can end a game in one base rush build point queuing never gets involved. The problem it solves is attackers spending funds in multiple attack waves but not making any progress because the other team can simply rebuild before the next wave arrives. I don't see how that's more fun.

People keep battle grangering, so let's make the normal granger faster and give it slash. What does this improve? The only change I see is the abillity to battle granger earlier.

Advanced granger now takes falling damage, yet it's a wallwalking alien. This makes absolutely no sense.

Every other class had at least some kind of attack; I felt the granger should too, especially since it spreads out some of the improvements the granger gets at stage 2. Advanced has falling damage to make it consistent with the regular granger. The other classes that don't have wallwalking don't take falling damage, so I don't know why you think that should be relevant.

Lets reduce the slash range yet increase the grab range. Now you can grab a target that's too far away for you to hit anyway. Logic?

There's nothing illogical about this. It's easier to grab than to slash, and once you've grabbed a human you can move 32 units closer to slash them, perhaps after revolving around them to hit from behind.

Small feature that few people knew how to take advantage of: Slowing down turrets with basi grab. Caused absolutely no negative effect on the game, there was absolutely no need to remove it. How can you possible justify removing such an innocent feature?

Because leaving around detritus from past versions is a good way to make the game harder for new players to learn. And like I already said, the turret and other basilisk changes make turret-grabbing almost completely useless.

marauder can be extremely powerful in the hands of an experienced player. Yet for some reason you decided to make the jump 'momentum' less, yet increase the attack width turning it into another clumsy fighter.

The jump magnitude was reduced, which is an improvement for the marauder.

60 damage to all 4 targets???
It takes just under a second for the turrets to even spin up after aquiring the marauder. By doing this, you make a marauder rush far more efficient and devestating than a tyrant rush, yet being a class available far earlier in the game. Now what we'll end up with is human campers feeding on the front lines hoping that they get zapped instead of the bases turrets/buildings. What did we solve here again?

We solved aliens not having enough effective ways to attack human bases. Actually playing the game has (so far) shown it to not be overpowered. It takes people by surprise though, if they're not used to it, or build poor bases.

The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?

It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".

Aliens now get 150bp by default. Uh, so alien builders get to have more fun than human builders?

Humans have zone build points, which, personally, I've found makes human building more fun than alien building. I guessed at how much aliens should get to offset it, but 150 seems to be just fine.

Acid tubes: Damage was increased from 6 to 8, yet the repeat time before it can deal the next 'dose' of damage increased from 200 to 300 milliseconds. Resulting in the acid tube now dealing 4 damage per second less that it did originally. What this comes down to is:
 "We weakened acid tubes, but then they were weaker, so we let you spam more so they aren't weaker"

Actually, the damage was changed because the same value was being used for its attack and for the damage dealt when it dies (most structures do 50; it did 6). Then the repeat was changed to weaken them, yes.

Flamethrower
   muzzle offset lowered (can now fire in vents without self-immolating)

What purpose, apart from allowing campers to sit in vents frying dretches, does this provide?

I'm really surprised this is at all controversial. It's still very easy to damage yourself in vents, just no longer impossible not to. It was a bug that was fixed. And you don't need a flamethrower to reliably kill dretches in a vent.

[Senor Bobbers]

norf just owned with those replies

Acid tubes: Damage was increased from 6 to 8, yet the repeat time before it can deal the next 'dose' of damage increased from 200 to 300 milliseconds. Resulting in the acid tube now dealing 4 damage per second less that it did originally. What this comes down to is:
 "We weakened acid tubes, but then they were weaker, so we let you spam more so they aren't weaker"

And about that, the damage is higher yes and the attack speed was reduced; though what that means is the acid tube does larger damage, but at slower intervals.

[Overdose]

# build point queuing

All this does is make gameplay entirely linear. Base rush->Game over. Why bother? All this does is makes sure that the losing side can't make a come back. This is the perfect example of what you're doing to remove the 'fun' factor from the game.

When you can end a game in one base rush build point queuing never gets involved. The problem it solves is attackers spending funds in multiple attack waves but not making any progress because the other team can simply rebuild before the next wave arrives. I don't see how that's more fun.

Regenerative build points have been in use on the Nuts server for awhile now; I think they are a pretty good idea. You can rush a base, respawn and evolve and instead of returning to a fully rebuilt base you can continue attacking a weakened base. This makes it so much easier to attack those players that seem to enjoy camping.

[Paradox]

Also, i still lobby for my method of mark decon.

If it is set to a base value, it is the ONLY form of decon you can use.

However, if set to a different value, lets say 2, you can decon like normal, but use the /mark command to mark structures at will. Useful for power users, but as mark is built into clients for 1.2, less of an issue.

Finally, there is the converse. Value 3 could make it so marked decon was the default method, but one could use a /unbuild or something to instantly remove certain structures. Last telenode/reactor, obviously, have their own protections

[A Spork]

Wait, you can still force a normal decon? Good, cuz mark had it's disadvantages.(makes it much harder to rearrange base, etc....)

[Demolution]

The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?

It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".

Not to mention that charge, although slower, still kills pretty effectively, and tyrants can squish humans by falling on them.

I think the tyrants have more of a niche now, requiring skill and ingenuity to use.

[Plague Bringer]

The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?

It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".

Not to mention that charge, although slower, still kills pretty effectively, and tyrants can squish humans by falling on them.

I think the tyrants have more of a niche now, requiring skill and ingenuity to use.

Rants are no longer going to be the amazing S3 alien killing machine class. They're just another alien now. They're all to general.
Norf, Thorn said that rants were LESS clumsy.

[Demolution]

Why should the tyrant have to be this "amazing S3 alien killing machine"? It's still useful and it still has skills that differentiate it from the other aliens, you just have to use it in a more tactical manner now.

[FreaK]

The Tyrant tends to play as a tank class in 1.1. The big mean killing machine at the end of stage 3. Yet in 1.2, what happens? The slash width is reduced, so it's less of a clumsy fighter, and the health was reduced by 50 points. What category does it fit into now? A mongrel alien?

It's still a tank, good for defense and for draining humans. The slash requires better aim; I wouldn't call that the same as being "clumsier".

Not to mention that charge, although slower, still kills pretty effectively, and tyrants can squish humans by falling on them.

I think the tyrants have more of a niche now, requiring skill and ingenuity to use.

Rants are no longer going to be the amazing S3 alien killing machine class. They're just another alien now. They're all to general.
Norf, Thorn said that rants were LESS clumsy.

If you use the new rant right it can still be an amazing killing machine.

[temple]

That's the funny thing around rants.  They aren't that different.  I think rants are more fearsome now, at the last time I played Dev server.  The only thing different or nerfed has nothing to do with rants.  Aliens have slower regen so rants, like all aliens, are handicapped.

But in raw damage, rants do more damage now than in 1.1.  Trample is ridiculous.

But the funny thing about rants in 1.1 or 1.2 is that rants are no more dangerous than a goon.  Rants just have more hitpoints.  Why would the Stage 3 class be easier to play than the Stage 1 class?  Same for the luci.  

[KamikOzzy]

Why would the Stage 3 class be easier to play than the Stage 1 class?  Same for the luci.  

Wow man I have never even thought about that, but it's an interesting concept.

[Redsky]

Why would the Stage 3 class be easier to play than the Stage 1 class?  Same for the luci.  

Wow man I have never even thought about that, but it's an interesting concept.

wait, what? did you even read that post?

[Twofacedrat]

Ahh i guess i suggest stuff to Norfenstein here.

As i tested on the SVN server, the 1.2 luci has nurfed the ability to luci jump. This got me thinking; Since from how i see it, most people don't use the luci secondary, they usually just stick to charging it unless they purposely feel like pointless spamming. My thought was that making the secondary for luci into a knock back luci so to speak. ie it doing little to no damage, but has a larger knock back. It will enhance the ability to luci jump greatly and be able to push back aliens (maybe even enough to push the rant back and reset its charge?). It should have a longer charge time so its not abuse able, will take more skill to time it right in-game, and if used correctly allowing luci's without a jet pack to climb to high parts of the map.

I feel that this will be a better secondary than the current and will put a spin on the game play with luci. It will be a great benefit to the team if used correctly (knocking aliens off of teammates/shooting someone past a trapper/launching someone and urself to certain spots in the map). It in general would be a fun secondary and will add a eagerness to use teamwork because of it's possibilities.

[kevlarman]

Ahh i guess i suggest stuff to Norfenstein here.

As i tested on the SVN server, the 1.2 luci has nurfed the ability to luci jump. This got me thinking; Since from how i see it, most people don't use the luci secondary, they usually just stick to charging it unless they purposely feel like pointless spamming. My thought was that making the secondary for luci into a knock back luci so to speak. ie it doing little to no damage, but has a larger knock back. It will enhance the ability to luci jump greatly and be able to push back aliens (maybe even enough to push the rant back and reset its charge?). It should have a longer charge time so its not abuse able, will take more skill to time it right in-game, and if used correctly allowing luci's without a jet pack to climb to high parts of the map.

I feel that this will be a better secondary than the current and will put a spin on the game play with luci. It will be a great benefit to the team if used correctly (knocking aliens off of teammates/shooting someone past a trapper/launching someone and urself to certain spots in the map). It in general would be a fun secondary and will add a eagerness to use teamwork because of it's possibilities.

lcannon damage is unchanged, you should be able to luci jump just fine (you have to relearn the timing though, since you get 250 damage at ~2.4 seconds and not ~1.9)

[Twofacedrat]

meh, still, i think my idea of a knockback bolt would be a good addition, would make the luci a lot of fun, and would put a spin on game play.

[Norfenstein]

meh, still, i think my idea of a knockback bolt would be a good addition, would make the luci a lot of fun, and would put a spin on game play.

Actually, I think it's a good idea too, but right now is probably the worst possible time to be making this kind of suggestion. As I said at the top of this thread:

At this point it's highly unlikely that anything else major (e.g. something getting added or removed) is going to change, but the beta period will most likely lead to some minor adjustments.

And I wouldn't qualify completely changing the behavior of a weapon as a minor adjustment.

[your face]

If you want 1.2 to be the best it can be by release, I suggest you listen to the community's suggestions.  No matter how much longer it takes, it will be worth it, don't mod yourself into a box.

[A Spork]

Face has a good point.
And I kinda like that idea too...Could prove to be as annoying for aliens as basi is for humans....

[Demolution]

Aw camman! We are so close to a major release!

[Senor Bobbers]

If you want 1.2 to be the best it can be by release, I suggest you listen to the community's suggestions.  No matter how much longer it takes, it will be worth it, don't mod yourself into a box.

yeah im sure we can all wait another 1-2 years

[Plague Bringer]

yeah im sure we can all wait another 1-2 years

Ahem.

The years between 1.1 and 1.2 should have been productive years filled with community feedback. We wouldn't have this problem today if that is how it went.

[Twofacedrat]

meh, still, i think my idea of a knockback bolt would be a good addition, would make the luci a lot of fun, and would put a spin on game play.

Actually, I think it's a good idea too, but right now is probably the worst possible time to be making this kind of suggestion. As I said at the top of this thread:

At this point it's highly unlikely that anything else major (e.g. something getting added or removed) is going to change, but the beta period will most likely lead to some minor adjustments.

And I wouldn't qualify completely changing the behavior of a weapon as a minor adjustment.

Well honestly i really didnt feel  like there was much development on 1.2 ( i wasn't a trem.net forum whore either so that might be a contributer) and  i stopped hearing about it in the past few years but now, actually hearing about it / being able to play on the SVN server and play with the changes it sparks ideas. Its a shame that its too late .

Also, i am not a coder or anything and i wouldn't know how much work this actually would be, but as i see it, don't you already have the animation / coding for the bolt? For the current secondary its less damage already so there has to be a value for that and a certain amount of knockback. Wouldn't it just be a matter of changing those 2 values/charge time and maybe color? In that sense i don't see where the problem is.

If you are worried about the game play than my response is this: i doubt it will change the gameplay as much as it might sound and long as its a reasonable mount of knock back. You could also make the bolt really slow so aliens would have more reaction time. You can tweak it how ever you wish but personally i don't see the problem in adding it. Just my 2 cents.

[Norfenstein]

Use this thread for feedback (or, you know, the feedback forum). This thread is for asking about changes you want explained.

[temple]

One question:
Why were credits for destroying structures removed?  That was probably the biggest change I was looking forward to.  I really focus on winning the game, so I attack the bases a lot.  But I end up wasting credits because I'm not killwhoring enough.  Any reason?

I think remember you saying that aliens could feed because they have to build outside of the base now to have reliable regeneration.  But that just seems small compared to the challenge of maintaining a siege without focusing on farming players.

[Norfenstein]

One question:
Why were credits for destroying structures removed?  That was probably the biggest change I was looking forward to.  I really focus on winning the game, so I attack the bases a lot.  But I end up wasting credits because I'm not killwhoring enough.  Any reason?

I think remember you saying that aliens could feed because they have to build outside of the base now to have reliable regeneration.  But that just seems small compared to the challenge of maintaining a siege without focusing on farming players.

Page 1

It had nothing to do with alien regeneration. When we playtested having all structures reward funds we found it had almost no impact on encouraging people to attack more, and I felt it was much more important to give builders the freedom to build forward without feeding the enemy team. And it's turned out that having forward bases encourages offense a lot more anyway.

[jaypee]

Norfestein, you need to put credits for destroying Eggs and Telenodes at least

[temple]

What is this freedom to build stuff?  I think that is a dumb excuse.