1.2 Gameplay Changes going off topic :)

[KamikOzzy]

We've played enough Saturday games without changing the balance that I feel confident about needing to change a few more things:

I think I've played more hours of trem than anyone; I really do. And I think every single change in 1.2 is bs. It's a bunch of crazy ass changes to qvm values. 1.2 is like the X server with Timbo's stamp on it. We need more people trying to keep Tremulous the same. We don't need retarded changes to values. Upgrade the game in ways that fix glitches, add new features, maybe a new class, update things graphically...all that is fine and dandy, but leave the values the fuck alone. If we wanted them changed, we woulda changed them in our Tremulous.h file a long ass time ago.

Save me the time of having to go through the qvm when 1.2 comes out and changing alllll the values the fuck back before continuing to host my server that is famous for not screwing up the qvm.

P.S.
cl_allowdownload needs to be set to 1 this time around. None of that prompting shit either. If it isnt 1, we are stuck with another ten years of ATCS.

[Winnie the Pooh]

Oh, I see. You've obviously looked at all the testing and games and balance data and decided that things should just stay the same because, by golly, they're perfect!

...right.

Try being specific and saying why you don't like something or what you don't like and why.

[KamikOzzy]

Interesting that someone with a free bacon sig wants to have a debate. What I don't like is people making changes to ANY values for damages, speeds, ranges, etc in the qvm. Pretty sure I said that. I have played enough games to know the things they are fixing do not need fixing, yes.

This is why I do not make myself present for your bullshit testing sessions, because you insist "I haven't played enough to know" when I've played more than anyone. I'm not going to waste my time playing specifically on the dev server any more than you want to waste your time playing on X. Though I have not seen any X data, I know enough to say: Yep, it's misguided, and the coders are stubborn as hell.

[Winnie the Pooh]

I leave it on for the novelty and because I'm too lazy to really do anything with it.

So, you're saying that EVERY SINGLE CHANGE is unneeded and silly?

Come on, now, you'd have to admit that some of them will improve gameplay.
You at least have to admit that there are things that you would change yourself in 1.1.

Edit:
Yeah, we know the devs are stubborn, but I personally just try to accept the fact that maybe THEIR suggestion is better than mine because I have not led this project nor changed settings and recorded any game data (and also because I don't know everything in the world).

Also, have you played "more than anyone" on the dev server? No? Then what are you talking about??

[KamikOzzy]

I personally just try to accept the fact that maybe THEIR suggestion is better than mine

This is where we differ. And I don't mean better than mine personally, I mean better than the general populations.

Yeah, maybe I find tyrants over-powered, but noobs have a way to kill with them, so it keeps people playing. Whatever the settings are, they're working, and keeping my server full at least. The only thing that's not working is cl_allowdownload, which I addressed already.


I answered your EDIT'd part in my last post.

My own EDIT:

Come on, now, you'd have to admit that some of them will improve gameplay.

No I do not have to admit that at all. Change gameplay, maybe. Improve, no.

[Winnie the Pooh]

Well, I'll just agree to disagree, then. Haha, I can see there's no changing your mind about it but if it keeps your server full, more power to j00.

...call me stupid but...   

..what's your server's name?

[KamikOzzy]

AA

[Winnie the Pooh]

Sry, gg.

Love your server btw.

[temple]

I have to agree with Ozzy's sentiment.

The reason for a lot of these changes is that there are somethings in 1.1 that are just weak.  Marauders, basilisks, hives, telsas, and barricades are just a few.  There needed to be some tweaks.  

The problem I have and I think Ozzy is recognizing is the feature creep.  There are way too many changes that make zero sense if you have experience with tremulous.  Painsaw range, dretch damage, flamer self damage, luci speed, the over nerf of alien regen, turrets, and more are going far and beyond a fix.  The changes to those things are attempting to fix something that isn't broke and re-balancing the game.  Re-balance is bad when the game is pretty much balanced to start.  Why?  Cause you have to balance the re-balance.

The major problems of 1.1 that everyone can agree on were

• Tyrants
  Camping from both teams
  Spamming from humans

Maybe you could say that aliens rely on dretches and dragoons too much but even that would be fixed if you just buffed up basilisks and marauders.

The problem is that 1.2 doesn't really solve 1.1 problems.  Tyrants are barely any different.  Camping isn't addressed in any meaningful way.  There are some mild changes to how bases work but nothing that penalizes staying in a base.  Spamming....well that will never get addressed.

But one 1.1 problem was addressed.  Aliens got a nerf to their regeneration, so it is far riskier for them to camp outside a human base.  Its fair but I find it funny how the devs directly solved alien camping but will handwave away criticism about humans camping.  It was so easy to fix an alien imbalance but fixing humans.....impossible.

1.2 has some changes that have absolutely no justification.  The reduction of head damage to 1.5 from 2.0 is mind boggling considering aliens don't deal any new damage.  How can anyone seriously defend that? I wish the devs would come out and say 'We think humans sucked in 1.1' because humans have received very generous buffs that I can't imagine playing against.

I guess it is just really confusing seeing how I love 1.1 and 1.2 moving farther and farther way from it.  Same game, same gameplay but the balance is going to be very different.  I've played on the dev server and humans owned before a lot of these changes.  Unlagged alone is a huge buff to humans.  Slow alien regen is a huge nerf.  I understand why changes are happening, I just don't get some of those change slipped in long enough to be seriously in the beta.  Its like an April fool's joke.

[rotacak]

We need new version. I am sure that there will appear back-to-1.1-balance.patch after 1.2 release. But we need new version, new protocol, we need be compatible with repository. Or you still want to stuck on revision 966, backporting game, cgame, ui and using this mess? Not me.

Weapon spamm is not problem. I have allowed it on my server and I saw only one problem in mission one map, where humans jetcamped in base with one door and spammed with luci. But that is map problem, not tremulous problem.

Tyrants are overpowered only when there is few humans. If they will attack together - tyrant can die without humans loss.

[David]

P.S.
cl_allowdownload needs to be set to 1 this time around. None of that prompting shit either. If it isnt 1, we are stuck with another ten years of ATCS.

Download are enabled by default.
What's wrong with the prompt?  Over here in the UK running code on someone's computer without there permission is illegal.  Would you prefer a 50-page EULA to sign away all the rights to your computer just to play?

EDIT:  It'd probably be the server owner going to jail not the devs... fundamentally it's the same thing as drive-by-downloads on malware sites.

[KamikOzzy]

What's wrong with the prompt?  Over here in the UK running code on someone's computer without there permission is illegal.  Would you prefer a 50-page EULA to sign away all the rights to your computer just to play?

Point taken.

[Bissig]

Humans DO actually camp less in 1.2 due to the adv goon being available at stage2. If you camp your base is getting splash sniped away in no time.

[amz181]

yay some other people who share my views. I agree with ozzy that youve changed things too much. With a few tweaks you could have sorted everything, but you have literally totally changed trem.

Its less accesible to newbies, i, who think myself to be an average trem player (pro rly) find it extremely hard to get a kill with the new dretch. Your main reason for changing the whole dretch is that you can easily get tked by an ally as a human after one headbite. Instead if changing the whole dretch you could have easily minimised the ally-rifle damage. It would stop the tking and also not impact the balance. Then if you say its too easy to get a kill as a dretch against a naked hummie, well i think thats a little unfounded. I think most trem players would agree that S1 and S2 are balanced, it is only s3 that was unbalanced.

I think the imbalance would be righted if you went ahead with the current rant (but having the regen by an egg or boosted, at 1.1 norm regen).

What im trying to get across, is that  minor changes could have been made, and it would be balanced. Instead it seems  youve completely changed the gameplay.

Also, the luci. I have said this many times, and it is wayyy to overpowered. What was the reasoning behind increasing the speed? I can 9times out of 10 make my credz back, and now youve just made it crazily overpowered.

[kevlarman]

the headshot change was made with friendly fire off.

[Blade]

I am going to play 1.1 equivalents almost exclusively in the future just as I have in the past. Please keep this in mind when reading my bullshit.

The list contains too many changes for 1.2 to be considered a simple update, and too few changes to call it Tremulous 2. It looks like changes fall into two categories: Legitimate updates and what I will call Norfenstein's Mod.

The first question we have to ask about 1.2 is why it should happen at all.

The game looks imbalanced. Aliens appear to win consistently better than humans.
The stats are frankly full of bullshit games between retarded public players. Critically, balance also depends on maps/layouts and team size/composition, not just the weapons and classes (which we know can never be perfect because they can never mirror each other in an interracial team FPS).

There's a bunch of bugs and not enough !commands and-
We've fixed those already. However, we'll say it is more convenient to have a universal developer-sanctioned update. But how about anti-cheat security, a balanced mappack, or something useful?

Norfenstein can't dodge.
Nerf dragoons and add a ridiculous dodge mechanic.

But if Norfenstein and humans are losing more than aliens, they won't be having fun.
What do you want, 50/50 balance without putting any effort into balancing maps? A lot of us love gameplay as it is. If you want to make a tennis court to play basketball on, call it Norfenstein's Mod.

I am all for legitimate updates. Make the graphics look better, fix remaining bugs. As Ozzy said, maybe add one class and weapon here or there inside the already proven and established framework. However, the gameplay shift from 1.1 to 1.2 as it is right now is absolutely too great. I don't say this as someone who is incapable of adapting to all the new ranges, speeds, damage values, and modifiers. I just don't care about developers' whims. All the balances changes are frankly bullshit. There are too many changes here for me to take them seriously.

I will say that a couple of the changes are actually helpful. For instance, it is important that stamina returns when you're flying with a jetpack. It's also nice for boost time to reset when you're already boosted. Everything else is horse shit. It really is the ridiculous quantity of nonsense changes that makes it unappealing.

Mark deconstruction, BP queueing, some shit moves faster, some shit moves slower, basi always has silent foosteps, humans get armor buffs, change a bunch of view heights, adjust a bunch of boxes, slow everyone's regen, give basi a healing aura, basi gas doesn't poison, dragoon pounce range nerfed, dragoon chomp range nerfed, dragoon can't chomp while pouncing, dragoon barbs do splash damage, nerf alien hit points, no buildings give credits anymore, dretches can't fight turrets, basis can't grab turrets, turrets are lethal, can't cancel luci charges with secondary fire, armory has 150% hit points, increase painsaw range, decrease shotgun pellet damage but increase the number of pellets so that the max damage is still 56 (my favorite, so useless), hives rock, tyrants can sit on you, got rid of superfluous advanced ckit, but kept advanced granger and nerfed it (?!), took out hovel so the shitty adv granger has nowhere to hide, nerf tesla, flamethrower gets buffs and is overpowered in vents, mass driver and blaster do a little bit more damage. Who thought this was a good idea?

There aren't too many balance changes. If you take them together, the gameplay is balanced.
Norfenstein's Mod. Obviously Norfenstein cares about what he is doing, and this took a lot of time to make, but it's a disaster. Did this catastrophe really take 3 years to get this far? It's only slightly more appealing than TremX.

It's true I hardly ever spend time in the dev servers. This is because I'd rather be working to be perfect at real Tremulous than balancing your problem child (and as I have stated before, real players should devmap on the dev server to provide input - your Saturday games are a waste). The devs are great, but this isn't a deer hunting game. It shouldn't be treated as some deformed child. 1.1 is better than you know. You don't have to run away from it like it's an unexpectedly gay son (although you have been in all the hurry of a pederast). Okay, please excuse the bullshit.

[David]

The stats are frankly full of bullshit games between retarded public players.

Those players you so blithely diagnose as retarded are the vast majority of players.  I'd hazard a guess that over 99.9% of games are "public" games.
Do you honestly believe that your metathesiophobia should prevent updates which the vast majority of players have agreed are good?  Is your ego really that large or are you just trolling?

You opened your post by stating that you have an irrational dislike of the new changes, and closed by saying you have no first hand knowledge of the topic you speak about.  You obviously have a personal dislike for Norfenstein.
So tell me why any of us should bother to listen to a word you say?

EDIT:  I'd also be interested to know why you posted.  Was it just to let off steam or were you hoping to achieve something?

[Norfenstein]

I just don't care about developers' whims.

Whose whims do you think produced 1.1? The exact same process used to make 1.1 is being used to make 1.2, and by pretty much the exact same people. The only difference is now the sausage-making has an audience.

[Blade]

Quote mining and straw men are counterproductive.

David, I did not say I had an irrational dislike of the new changes. I said that I play what I enjoy. Do you have a problem with that? I did not say anything about Norf. I said, "The devs are great." If you had read, not just skimmed, you would have picked up on my stoic indifference. Please don't skim.

The stats are frankly full of bullshit games between retarded public players.

Those players you so blithely diagnose as retarded are the vast majority of players.

Yes. I don't think the vast majority of players are intelligent enough to know what the fuck is going on (just as most people aren't). It would be something of a miracle if Trem players were that competent.

I just don't care about developers' whims.

Whose whims do you think produced 1.1? The exact same process used to make 1.1 is being used to make 1.2, and by pretty much the exact same people. The only difference is now the sausage-making has an audience.

I do not accept the developers' clearly well thought-out process as unquestionable. Please don't be personally offended. The fact is Quake derivatives are a dime a dozen, and it's just chance that we're here with Trem 1.1 rather than the skeleton of some other, failed Q3 mod whose fate Tremulous managed to avoid.

When you are fixing things, you have an update - when you are changing things, you have a mod. I have very simply contended that you can't justify putting a Hershey bar in a Snickers wrapper. We don't want to buy it.

So where are the useful things? Where is the balanced, tested mappack? Anti-hack features? I am being repetitive because you tried to dismiss my main post without having actually read it.

[KamikOzzy]

1. Those players you so blithely diagnose as retarded are the vast majority of players.

2. Do you honestly believe that your metathesiophobia should prevent updates which the vast majority of players have agreed are good?

1. That's definitely true. The vast majority of players are incompetent. But if I had logged on Trem the first time and noticed all the players being able to play at the same level I would not have desired to dive so deeply into it. It was the fact that some players could become nearly unbeatable that made me want to stick with the game.

You wouldn't go changing the rules of chess so that I myself could stand to play a round against Deep Blue. The fact that practicing and practicing makes you far better is a GOOD thing, as this is true in any complete game or sport.

We should not be making it so that everyone has a chance to dodge a goon. We should keep it as is: if you want to dodge a good goon, you better get damn good.


2. Who is this vast majority that are agreeing? MG? I bring up the issue of 1.2 about every day in game (where the real players are, not on the forums) and an OVERWHELMING majority of people agree that this multitude of balance changes is ridiculous.

Yes, I'm scared as fuck when it comes to change. That's because there are tons of mods released all the time and almost all of them totally suck ass. We found one that turned out to be fricking awesome, and I don't trust Norfenstein to keep it that way any more than I trust mappers to "remake ATCS to be better balanced." We've seen how that's turned out, many times now.

Another problem is control. In an experiment you change one variable at a time, slightly, and test the difference it makes. We have too many damn variables changed at this point to draw conclusions about the effects of even the simplest changes.



And camping isn't something that can be fixed. Players camp when they are new. They don't know the map, they don't want to fuck things up, they are tired of being called feeders, it makes sense to stay near a heavily fortified area if you don't know what you're doing, they die less meaning they play longer and maybe accumulate some credits. The good players don't camp. You don't need to change the game to stop camping, because the players who will be motivated to not camp by your changes are the ones already not camping. New players aren't going to understand that they need to leave base or they will get splash'd upon.


Yeah, I'm totally raging out, but it's because I've got a hell of a history with this game, and I don't like TremX, I don't like KoR servers, I don't like any fucking mod that's ever come out, so why am I going to like Norfenstein's Mod (thanks Blade for this term)? I'm fine with people making mods, but when it becomes an official release, and when it becomes the thing everyone will download their first time to this site, then it matters to me. It also matters to players IN GAME. Come in game and ask people why 1.2 is retarded and they will give you their own speech. Duh these forums are pro-devteam and pro-MG, and so is IRC, and the Dev Server. Vast majority of people agree...my ass.

[David]

David, I did not say I had an irrational dislike of the new changes. I said that I play what I enjoy. Do you have a problem with that? I did not say anything about Norf. I said, "The devs are great." If you had read, not just skimmed, you would have picked up on my stoic indifference. Please don't skim.

I am going to play 1.1 equivalents almost exclusively in the future just as I have in the past. Please keep this in mind when reading my bullshit.

A refusal to consider the other side generally sits as irrational in my book.
"Norf can't dodge", "Norf keeps losing" and your continued bashing of Norfenstein's Mod all read to me as not-so-subtle accusations that norf sucks and therefore his changes suck.

Yes. I don't think the vast majority of players are intelligent enough to know what the fuck is going on (just as most people aren't). It would be something of a miracle if Trem players were that competent.

So you're picking the arrogant option then?

When you are fixing things, you have an update - when you are changing things, you have a mod. I have very simply contended that you can't justify putting a Hershey bar in a Snickers wrapper. We don't want to buy it.

And you could argue that nothing has been changed, simply fixed to be closer to how it was originally intended.  And you yourself advocated added classes and weapons as being an "update".

So where are the useful things? Where is the balanced, tested mappack? Anti-hack features? I am being repetitive because you tried to dismiss my main post without having actually read it.

I ignored those in your original post as I assumed it was common knowledge that there will be different maps in 1.2.  There's also the official map repo and www-downloads default enabled, so playing and finding good custom maps should be a lot easier.  The anti-hack thing has been suggested and shot-down many times.  I won't bother rehashing all the reasons why it doesn't work here.


Please continue to play what you like.
The master will continue to serve protocol 69 clients and I'm sure someone will make a 1.1 mod (or 1.1 with a ton of 1.2 features backported, as we currently play.  Nobody wants to play 1.1)

[KamikOzzy]

Nobody wants to play 1.1)

Very, very wrong.

[Thorn]

Do you honestly believe that your metathesiophobia should prevent updates which the vast majority of players have agreed are good?  Is your ego really that large or are you just trolling?

Where is this vast majority you speak of? Hiding in your closet? From my point of view, very few people approve 1.2's 'progress' on the balance front. It took you 3 years to get here, some desperate reach for exact 50/50 balance. If you want such a perfect balance, why don't you play alone and swap teams every game? Tell me, were the nazis this desperate for the better blood? The borg so desperate for perfection? What you are doing is annihilating all traces of fun from the game.

So tell me why any of us should bother to listen to a word you say?

That's your attitude as developers? Claim that the general concensus is good on 1.2 then blatently admit to ignoring the community? Wow, you must have those guys in your closet tied up pretty tight.

[Flux]

Nobody wants to play 1.1)

I do!

Imo, 1.1 isn't unbalanced and 1.2 has too many radical changes. Can't we just fix and add on to 1.1 rather than completely changing it?

P.S. I hope 1.2 never comes out.

[Blade]

"Norf can't dodge" and "Norf keeps losing" were my attempts to identify the motivations behind the specific set of changes in this topic's list (the other two lines in italics that don't mention Norf's name were also supposed causes I identified - they are answers to the question "why 1.2?" - please thoroughly reread my first post before you come to me with further misunderstandings). I used Norf's name because this is his topic, he's actively posting, and I think he's important. I am telling you I don't have a problem with Norfenstein (whom I don't know). Please leave it at that.

I call it Norfenstein's Mod because although I think the balance changes are unsuitable for a 1.2 release, the work should not be put to waste ( -> Norfenstein's Mod). It's also pejorative because Norf's Mod is indistinguishable from things like TremX except in that Norfenstein's Mod doesn't even have any new classes or weapons. It's just a bunch of perversely bastardized QVM values and a few intolerable new mechanics.

When you are fixing things, you have an update - when you are changing things, you have a mod. I have very simply contended that you can't justify putting a Hershey bar in a Snickers wrapper. We don't want to buy it.

And you could argue that nothing has been changed, simply fixed to be closer to how it was originally intended.  And you yourself advocated added classes and weapons as being an "update".

Your ability to misquote is astounding. I said that like Ozzy I supported the addition of perhaps one weapon and class within the proven and established framework of 1.1, not in the new mess of 1.2 modifications (and so far there are no new classes or weapons anyhow). Please refer to my first post.

I haven't refused to consider the other side, David. I considered it, rejected it, and am offering my rationale while trying to explain this shit to you. Your ad hominem nonsense is getting tiring, though. It's a little worrisome to me that you have to try to be king of your castle like this, David.

Finding good custom maps is not my concern. My concern is that the developers take a responsibility not just to tailor QVM values to their own playing styles, but also to compile balanced maps so that everybody in the community gets a set of standard, balanced maps. It's not just a matter of "durr ofc we will put diff maps in 1.2."

Yes. I don't think the vast majority of players are intelligent enough to know what the fuck is going on (just as most people aren't). It would be something of a miracle if Trem players were that competent.

So you're picking the arrogant option then?

I am picking the rationalist and realist opinion. You are picking the pedantic, irrational, debasing troll opinion (you shouldn't be hung up on the idea that given a group of people, half of them are below average).

[David]

When you are fixing things, you have an update - when you are changing things, you have a mod. I have very simply contended that you can't justify putting a Hershey bar in a Snickers wrapper. We don't want to buy it.

And you could argue that nothing has been changed, simply fixed to be closer to how it was originally intended.  And you yourself advocated added classes and weapons as being an "update".

Your ability to misquote is astounding. I said that like Ozzy I supported the addition of perhaps one weapon and class within the proven and established framework of 1.1, not in the new mess of 1.2 modifications (and so far there are no new classes or weapons anyhow). Please refer to my first post.

You said (twice now) that adding new classes would be "an update".  You also said that "changing things" is a mod.  Adding classes is very much "changing things".  Maybe you should take your own advice and read things.


And no, nobody wants to play 1.1.  What you all want to play is what all the server currently run, modified 1.1 gameplay with a million bug fixes.

1.1 has no admins, lots of bugs, and as I recall poison and goon pounce have been changed, and probably other things that all servers have.


Thorn:  You know I'm not a developer, and am totally unaffiliated with the developers.  Pull you head out of your fucking arse and thing before you type.


I'm going to bed now, I'll respond to other stuff in the morning once I am awake.

[Thorn]

You said (twice now) that adding new classes would be "an update".  You also said that "changing things" is a mod.  Adding classes is very much "changing things".  Maybe you should take your own advice and read things.

Self ownage entirely. What a complete twit, we've finally got to the point where it's *beyond* rediculous.
Adding classes, is by definition, adding, not modifying what is already there. Changing things, hence modifying, would, by abbreviation be a mod. Now why don't you take some new advice and try to get a grip on the language you attempt to speak. On the other hand, maybe you should just continue making a complete ass of yourself and claiming that the general concensus as it stands agrees with your opinions.

Thorn:  You know I'm not a developer, and am totally unaffiliated with the developers.  Pull you head out of your fucking arse and thing before you type.

First of all, you did put work into a development related project (no matter be it website based) with the main map repository. This makes your entire point on the same level as the rest of what you speak. Surprise!

Judging by the way you so desperately seem to protect this project which you are clearly passionate about, yet claim to be entirely unaffiliated with the developers and also claim to have the community backing I think it's you who needs to pull the head out and finally look at your surroundings. Not so cosy? pull the quilt back over, maybe it will help you in those sweet dreams.

[kevlarman]

"Norf can't dodge" and "Norf keeps losing" were my attempts to identify the motivations behind the specific set of changes in this topic's list (the other two lines in italics that don't mention Norf's name were also supposed causes I identified - they are answers to the question "why 1.2?" - please thoroughly reread my first post before you come to me with further misunderstandings). I used Norf's name because this is his topic, he's actively posting, and I think he's important. I am telling you I don't have a problem with Norfenstein (whom I don't know). Please leave it at that.

you've never actually tried these changes, yet you seem to think you know better than someone who has been playing trem pretty much since it existed. "blade can't aim" and "blade keeps losing" are probably at least as valid as the arguments you're making.

[KamikOzzy]

Guaranteed he's played enough to hold an opinion. Having the game longer and playing the game longer are completely different.

David you're helping me out bro. YES we want to play 1.1 with UPDATES thats exactly what we're supporting is UPDATES rather than loads of crazy changes. These updates come about when something is found to be broken, not when someone decides its time for a change...and when that's the case, we shun it like it's the X server.

If you think no one wants to play the version of 1.1 we have no without going 1.2, and really believe that, please come chat with people on AA, or ><, or $, or any server that isn't heavily modded or affiliated with MGDev

[Redsky]

Now why don't you take some new advice and try to get a grip on the language you attempt to speak. On the other hand, maybe you should just continue making a complete ass of yourself and claiming that the general concensus as it stands agrees with your opinions.

You should blame yourself, David, you have awoken beast noone is able to stop

Thorn:  You know I'm not a developer, and am totally unaffiliated with the developers.  Pull you head out of your fucking arse and thing before you type.

Before Thorn's statements were (surprisingly ) making sense - now he will just try to end you.