Gameplay Preview Phase 3 Results

[kevlarman]

Why was it's size increased anyway?

because the bbox was much bigger than the model.

[KillerWhale]

1.2 dretch is HORRIDLY underpowered in scrims.

There simply isn't a way to dodge with the level of skill that some players possess.
Dretching becomes less about individual skill with the dretch, and more about praying for ineptitude from the opposing team.

The rifle is fine where it is, except against dretches.
Making the rifle any weaker would cripple it a little too much; having the rifle as a viable weapon choice for anything below a rant allows you to defend right off of the spawn.
It also lets you use the rifle if you just plain like it.

I think a 5-10 damage increase in dretch bite would do the job, or a range extension to allow ground-headbites again. Both?

[kevlarman]

ground headbites weren't possible for about a week over a year ago, they work perfectly fine right now.

[SlackerLinux]

1.2 dretch is HORRIDLY underpowered in scrims.

There simply isn't a way to dodge with the level of skill that some players possess.
Dretching becomes less about individual skill with the dretch, and more about praying for ineptitude from the opposing team.

The rifle is fine where it is, except against dretches.
Making the rifle any weaker would cripple it a little too much; having the rifle as a viable weapon choice for anything below a rant allows you to defend right off of the spawn.
It also lets you use the rifle if you just plain like it.

I think a 5-10 damage increase in dretch bite would do the job, or a range extension to allow ground-headbites again. Both?

afaik dretchrange hasnt changed so you can still headbite from ground in 1.2 if you could in 1.1(i dont think you could)
only thing that has changed afaik is:

• Dretch's model size is made larger to better fit the bbox(which afaik hasn't changed)
• Dretches damage has been slightly lowered so now you cant do headbite + legbite now you have to do 2 headbites to kill fast or 1 headbite and 2 normalbites or just 4 normal bites (and god knows how many legbites you gotta do its alot)

a dev can correct me if im totally wrong

[UniqPhoeniX]

...remove the barb splash. Its unneeded, it tks, it makes it a spam weapon, instead of an aimed one.

It is great against dense human bases, making them not impenetrable. It tks if the player using it sux. It still needs to be aimed to be more useful.
(Oh btw, why the newlines in the middle of sentences O.o)

I agree with scrape. The splash on the barbs needs to go. Several times, I have used the snipe to hit someone point blank and the splash would damage me. There should be a fix where the Adv Goon shooting/launching the barb can't be damaged by the splash damage. Other than that, the new splash is alright. Tking isn't the problem with snipe, the player does need to learn when to shoot it.

Why snipe from point blank range?? You can't/shouldn't play 1.2 like it was 1.1. Flamer/Luci at point blank also damages the user.

[David]

It is by no means hypothetical.
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/eu1/games.php
As you can see by the killing-curves humans nearly always have more kills in the start. EVEN though those games see fairly limited amount of teamwork.

I can't be arsed to make a graph, but here's every kills by minute across both servers: (phase4 only):

Code: [Select]

+------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| time | human | alien | world | total |
+------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
|    0 |  7311 |  4138 |   921 | 12370 |
|    1 |  5773 |  4000 |   933 | 10706 |
|    2 | 11382 |  8708 |  2101 | 22191 |
|    3 | 11443 |  9194 |  2328 | 22965 |
|    4 |  5341 |  4643 |  1180 | 11164 |
|    5 | 15810 | 13478 |  3430 | 32718 |
|    6 |  5204 |  4298 |  1135 | 10637 |
|    7 | 10370 |  8385 |  2183 | 20938 |
|    8 |  9814 |  7912 |  1979 | 19705 |
|    9 |  4772 |  3734 |   933 |  9439 |
|   10 | 14011 | 10256 |  2712 | 26979 |
|   11 |  4561 |  3055 |   802 |  8418 |
|   12 |  8379 |  5865 |  1488 | 15732 |
|   13 |  7989 |  5190 |  1375 | 14554 |
|   14 |  3791 |  2488 |   623 |  6902 |
|   15 | 10241 |  6700 |  1751 | 18692 |
|   16 |  3145 |  1968 |   548 |  5661 |
|   17 |  5950 |  3788 |  1036 | 10774 |
|   18 |  5464 |  3493 |   984 |  9941 |
|   19 |  2528 |  1633 |   441 |  4602 |
|   20 |  7109 |  4514 |  1249 | 12872 |
|   21 |  2089 |  1375 |   394 |  3858 |
|   22 |  4097 |  2583 |   702 |  7382 |
|   23 |  3929 |  2570 |   654 |  7153 |
|   24 |  1901 |  1250 |   313 |  3464 |
|   25 |  5360 |  3453 |   918 |  9731 |
|   26 |  1701 |  1088 |   312 |  3101 |
|   27 |  3190 |  2013 |   545 |  5748 |
|   28 |  3006 |  1999 |   526 |  5531 |
|   29 |  1457 |   998 |   302 |  2757 |
|   30 |  3983 |  2682 |   691 |  7356 |
|   31 |  1253 |   879 |   259 |  2391 |
|   32 |  2494 |  1626 |   468 |  4588 |
|   33 |  2327 |  1606 |   397 |  4330 |
|   34 |  1192 |   820 |   242 |  2254 |
|   35 |  3255 |  2133 |   601 |  5989 |
|   36 |  1055 |   714 |   191 |  1960 |
|   37 |  2029 |  1308 |   388 |  3725 |
|   38 |  1950 |  1247 |   369 |  3566 |
|   39 |   968 |   601 |   182 |  1751 |
|   40 |  2783 |  1815 |   520 |  5118 |
|   41 |   902 |   544 |   149 |  1595 |
|   42 |  1650 |  1038 |   303 |  2991 |
|   43 |  1597 |  1078 |   297 |  2972 |
|   44 |   746 |   533 |   150 |  1429 |
|   45 |  2114 |  1397 |   407 |  3918 |
|   46 |   714 |   481 |   114 |  1309 |
|   47 |  1280 |   877 |   256 |  2413 |
|   48 |  1267 |   870 |   249 |  2386 |
|   49 |   599 |   406 |   135 |  1140 |
|   50 |  1712 |  1259 |   461 |  3432 |
|   51 |   588 |   360 |   132 |  1080 |
|   52 |  1037 |   690 |   285 |  2012 |
|   53 |   991 |   687 |   221 |  1899 |
|   54 |   479 |   309 |   101 |   889 |
|   55 |  1234 |   854 |   299 |  2387 |
|   56 |   393 |   275 |   100 |   768 |
|   57 |   706 |   471 |   162 |  1339 |
|   58 |   636 |   425 |   132 |  1193 |
|   59 |   286 |   202 |    62 |   550 |
|   60 |   779 |   514 |   155 |  1448 |
|   61 |   243 |   175 |    35 |   453 |
|   62 |   421 |   271 |    99 |   791 |
|   63 |   374 |   237 |    93 |   704 |
|   64 |   155 |   106 |    43 |   304 |
|   65 |   453 |   291 |   109 |   853 |
|   66 |   155 |   111 |    51 |   317 |
|   67 |   240 |   172 |    72 |   484 |
|   68 |   193 |   129 |    50 |   372 |
|   69 |    95 |    46 |    14 |   155 |
|   70 |   266 |   147 |    55 |   468 |
|   71 |    71 |    46 |    16 |   133 |
|   72 |   127 |    85 |    31 |   243 |
|   73 |   127 |    83 |    40 |   250 |
|   74 |    47 |    23 |    11 |    81 |
|   75 |     3 |     3 |     0 |     6 |
|   76 |     0 |     1 |     1 |     2 |
|   77 |     1 |     0 |     2 |     3 |
|   78 |     3 |     5 |     2 |    10 |
|   79 |     1 |     2 |     0 |     3 |
|   80 |     7 |     3 |     3 |    13 |
|   81 |     3 |     1 |     3 |     7 |
|   82 |     6 |     3 |     1 |    10 |
|   83 |     8 |     3 |     7 |    18 |
|   84 |     3 |     2 |     1 |     6 |
|   85 |     4 |     3 |     5 |    12 |
|   86 |     1 |     0 |     3 |     4 |
|   87 |     3 |     0 |     4 |     7 |
|   88 |     5 |     4 |     1 |    10 |
|   89 |     3 |     5 |     2 |    10 |
|   90 |     9 |     4 |     1 |    14 |
|   91 |     1 |     0 |     2 |     3 |
|   92 |     3 |     2 |     2 |     7 |
|   93 |     2 |     2 |     2 |     6 |
|   94 |     5 |     0 |     1 |     6 |
|   95 |     1 |     3 |     1 |     5 |
|   96 |     0 |     1 |     0 |     1 |
|   97 |     8 |     1 |     1 |    10 |
|   98 |     2 |     3 |     1 |     6 |
|   99 |     3 |     1 |     1 |     5 |
|  167 |     4 |     0 |     1 |     5 |
|  168 |     1 |     1 |     0 |     2 |
|  169 |     1 |     0 |     1 |     2 |
|  170 |     2 |     0 |     0 |     2 |
|  171 |     0 |     0 |     1 |     1 |
|  172 |     3 |     4 |     0 |     7 |
|  173 |     3 |     2 |     1 |     6 |
|  174 |     0 |     2 |     0 |     2 |
|  175 |     3 |     6 |     3 |    12 |
|  176 |     0 |     1 |     0 |     1 |
|  177 |     0 |     3 |     1 |     4 |
|  178 |     0 |     2 |     0 |     2 |
|  179 |     1 |     2 |     0 |     3 |
|  180 |     3 |     1 |     2 |     6 |
|  181 |     0 |     2 |     0 |     2 |
|  182 |     1 |     4 |     0 |     5 |
|  183 |     0 |     3 |     1 |     4 |
|  184 |     0 |     3 |     0 |     3 |
|  185 |     3 |     4 |     3 |    10 |
|  186 |     1 |     0 |     0 |     1 |
|  187 |     3 |     1 |     1 |     5 |
|  188 |     3 |     3 |     1 |     7 |
|  189 |     5 |     0 |     0 |     5 |
|  190 |     5 |     1 |     0 |     6 |
|  191 |     1 |     0 |     1 |     2 |
|  195 |     1 |     1 |     0 |     2 |
+------+-------+-------+-------+-------+


[Meisseli]

With the increase of speed to the dragoon and marauder gameplay is fast again and killing marauders is not boring anymore. I am pleased to announce Tremulous 1.2 is fun to play!

The dretch is significantly underpowered though. I'd vote for at least a +5HP increase.

[Conzul]

With the increase of speed to the dragoon and marauder gameplay is fast again and killing marauders is not boring anymore. I am pleased to announce Tremulous 1.2 is fun to play!

The dretch is significantly underpowered though. I'd vote for at least a +5HP increase.

I concur. Except that I would have the dretches value nerfed rather than its abilities increased. I mean come on, humans shouldn't advance whole stages by killing spiders. My little sister can do that and she doesn't get to buy big gunz afterwords............

[Meisseli]

With the increase of speed to the dragoon and marauder gameplay is fast again and killing marauders is not boring anymore. I am pleased to announce Tremulous 1.2 is fun to play!

The dretch is significantly underpowered though. I'd vote for at least a +5HP increase.

I concur. Except that I would have the dretches value nerfed rather than its abilities increased. I mean come on, humans shouldn't advance whole stages by killing spiders. My little sister can do that and she doesn't get to buy big gunz afterwords............

The value doesn't make it any easier for a dretch to kill a human (which is the problem here). The HP increase is by far the best way.

[A Spork]

I'd prefer having the damage upped again myself, over a hp buff, I still prefer the 1.1 dretch, almost everything else I'm quite happy with 1.2/gpp.
Its just not as much fun anymore.
in 1.1, a good dretch could nom a large chunk of a human rush, and a good rifle or 2 could kill a dretchstorm(unless they ran out of ammo..)
in 1.2, rifle > Dretch. Period.

Somewhere in the middle would be nice, where 1 headbite + 1 footbite would still kill, but so they human has at least a slight chance to survive if naked and head-bitten.

[iRa`]

go go go final version  

come on i want to do 1.2 Movie    

O_________O  400 fps movies !! xD

[Norfenstein]

It is by no means hypothetical.
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/eu1/games.php
As you can see by the killing-curves humans nearly always have more kills in the start. EVEN though those games see fairly limited amount of teamwork.

It's not necessarily imbalanced for humans to get more dretch kills because dretches aren't worth as much as human kills. When I pull the stats for gpp4 I'll see how even it is in terms of credits.

The hypothetical situation is one in which this is actually a problem: since aliens are unambiguously doing more than fine at stage 1 in the games played on the official servers (and at stages 2 and 3...), I can't really justify buffing the dretch.

[Conzul]

I think the dretches are almost fine, but they are so hard to use against helmets. We do poll, yes?

[mooseberry]

It is by no means hypothetical.
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/eu1/games.php
As you can see by the killing-curves humans nearly always have more kills in the start. EVEN though those games see fairly limited amount of teamwork.

It's not necessarily imbalanced for humans to get more dretch kills because dretches aren't worth as much as human kills. When I pull the stats for gpp4 I'll see how even it is in terms of credits.

The hypothetical situation is one in which this is actually a problem: since aliens are unambiguously doing more than fine at stage 1 in the games played on the official servers (and at stages 2 and 3...), I can't really justify buffing the dretch.

This seems to me a bit of individual vs team playing. It's fine that dretches aren't worth as much and they are more likely to lose in a 1 on 1, logically that makes sense, but it isn't fun for the starting alien player.

Having a game where there is a countdown timer and than the first player to click wins the game could be called perfectly balanced, but I don't think it would be fun.

[temple]

The problem was that dretches were so useful that players would horde evos and not use any of the classes other than rant or goon.  Aliens could dretch rush for free whereas humans had to spend credits due a naked rifle being so weak.  So dretches got nerfed so that the aliens would have a reason to evolve (spend evos) instead of playing a free class at all stages.

The problem with the nerf is that humans got stronger at the same time.  Dodge, pulse, flamer, and luci are now better and it made dretches even more weak.  It is over balanced.  Since humans are a lot stronger (especially seeing how dretches can't hurt rets), the dretch nerfs aren't needed.

And yes, dretches got a speed increase but it is not noticable considering dretches were already fast. 

[David]

Naked rifles suck against anything AS2, so why shouldn't dretches suck against HS2?

[A Spork]

Not true, Rifle Vs. Basi is a pretty fair fight if the basi starts at any significant distance from the human.

[F50]

The problem was that dretches were so useful that players would horde evos and not use any of the classes other than rant or goon.

I still do that in s2+, but usually with 3 and 4 evos, rather than 4 and 5 evos. This might be harder to do in a scrim, but I think that is anectdotal evidence that the dretch works quite well. If your entire team is dretch s2, that's a problem, but then that is usually because your team rushed to much. If you have a few maras/rants/goons to attract gunfire, dretches can be *quite* effective.

[Liskey]

Protip: poison humans with dretches in their base and then die to turrets before they can shoot you.  Hit and run only works for big aliens; hit and die is the better strategy for dretches.  Bullet damage gives them credits but structure damage does not, so the more damage the turrets do to you the less they get.

[Saliva]

Here are some thoughts.

Dretches are mostly balanced in normal public games when people don't have good enough aim to kill them before they can do anything or the player count isn't high enough that humans can just kill them because of their concentrated firepower.

While it takes skill to evade enemy fire it's really the humans that you are facing that determine how hard or easy it is for the dretch to win and that is why dretch has never been a fun class to play for me despite being balanced overall. I would really like to see it improved to make it more dependent on my own skill but i can understand if it won't happen for balance reasons.

Basilisk gas seems underpowered to me. While its disorienting effect can be useful its usually better to just grab the human and slash him because there is a long delay before you are able to slash after gassing and the gas range isn't much longer than grab range. Its still good when supported by other aliens or when you are gassing a group of humans but i would like to see its usefulness improved in 1vs1 combat which is how you fight most of the time. Perhaps improving it's range sligthly could make it good enough.

Teslas aren't useful when compared to turrets. They don't have to turn and they attack immediately but they do less damage, have shorter range and the knockback they have isn't strong enough to really stop aliens from attacking. Additionally because of mara zap/dragoon barbs you have to divide your defenses on a large area and they can't support each other properly. If they had longer range and increased knockback they could be useful to prevent aliens from reaching the base. Teslas would then be useful when combined with mg turrets which would then have more time to shoot the aliens before they can do damage. Also adv.dragoons would then be more important part of attacking human base because they could snipe teslas so adv.maras can get into the base more easily.

Defence computer isn't worth its cost in my opinion. It's repair ability is nice but it repairs too little. It's repair rate could easily be tripled and even then it wouldn't be too good. You would still need to repair things manually and replace lost buildings.

[David]

Basilisk gas seems underpowered to me. While its disorienting effect can be useful its usually better to just grab the human and slash him because there is a long delay before you are able to slash after gassing and the gas range isn't much longer than grab range. Its still good when supported by other aliens or when you are gassing a group of humans but i would like to see its usefulness improved in 1vs1 combat which is how you fight most of the time. Perhaps improving it's range sligthly could make it good enough.

I find it handy as an opening move, come out of nowhere, gas them, and use it as cover to get a decent grab.  No need to rush if they have no backup, so the cooldown doesn't really matter as long as you get the grab in.
It's also handy to support bigger aliens, and really fun against flamers

But yeah, wouldn't say no to more range.

Teslas aren't useful when compared to turrets. They don't have to turn and they attack immediately but they do less damage, have shorter range and the knockback they have isn't strong enough to really stop aliens from attacking. Additionally because of mara zap/dragoon barbs you have to divide your defenses on a large area and they can't support each other properly. If they had longer range and increased knockback they could be useful to prevent aliens from reaching the base. Teslas would then be useful when combined with mg turrets which would then have more time to shoot the aliens before they can do damage. Also adv.dragoons would then be more important part of attacking human base because they could snipe teslas so adv.maras can get into the base more easily.

What I was is either RA2 prism tower style thing, or tesla-trooper style thing.  Either way a way to boost them so they can do a lot more.

[scrape]

So my recommendations:

    * Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
    * Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
    * Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
    * AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change. Recently, I was only able to wound
the overmind with my pain saw, but my post mortem grenade, that fired after I was already naked at the armory, took
the overmind out with 2 aliens. There wasn't a damn thing they could do about it either, hardly fun, and they killed
me quickly.

Recently I was able to kill the overmind with a pulserifle. The aliens had built a crappy base and didn't defend properly.
I move to suggest a ban against the pulserifle as well since the overmind is supposed to be invincible and anything threatening it's existence should be banned.
For the overmind!

Recently I was able to kill the overmind with a pulserifle. The aliens had built a crappy base and didn't defend properly.
I move to suggest a ban against the pulserifle as well since the overmind is supposed to be invincible and anything threatening it's existence should be banned.
For the overmind!

I once killed the Overmind with an alien. Guess we have to get rid of those too....

Pointless strawmans.

I said, its my opinion the grenade should not explode regardless of whether the human is alive or
not. The pulse rifle requires you to be alive to kill the om, however the grenade does not, now please
explain WHY a human weapon should be unstoppable on release and why it shouldn't be changed.

[David]

Because that's it's point.
Variety makes things fun.

[scrape]

Yeah lets waste 6 evos on one ret, wonderful, when you can take out several with 3 evos.
Never thought of that before?

FYI: rant costs 5 evos, and with that tactic you are *supposed* to survive, or wait for a better chance. Or take out several rets and die. So stop your stupid exaggerations.

Typo, said 6, meant 5. The tyrant dies because it takes so much damage from rets, in effort to kill one, and then
is immediately killed by chainsuits camping their base. While I can manage the same feat on adv mara, for less evos.

How is this an exaggeration?  So you refute it by calling it *stupid*, effective.

(regarding pulse rifles:)
I said I would PREFER that is the dominate way to take down a base, but since its its not as effective
as suicide missions, no one does it. (unless its gren spam, and kill ceiling structs) Are you alerted now?

Really? Noone does it? It is much more effective then suicide rush... (if you have more then 0 teammates that is).

Its still a suicide rush, with the pulse rifle but its MORE effective to use the pain saw- grenade kamikaze instead.
(given the aliens have no sky overmind options)

Well they are supposed to run from the grenade, not stare at it. If the human got far enough to drop the gren right next to OM, then the aliens deserve that. If the human manages to do that repeatedly, enough to take out OM, then the aliens deserve that too.

So if the aliens don't camp their base, and meat shield the door, they deserve it huh? In a battlesuit, I can charge into most alien bases and get my grenade on the om. Why not exploding marauders on death? If the humans let it get that close, they deserve it, correct?

If you manage to get to the overmind, saw most of it's hp, and throw grenade, then the aliens sucked. (Even more if 2 aliens stayed around to admire the shiny human technology).

This happens almost every game, regardless of the skill of the alien team, its extremely hard to stop. What makes a
good alien team is the ability to keep making overminds over and over all game. Do you even play?

If you think it will be possible to get to overmind, drop grenade, and survive for 5 seconds after that (more then once a month by luck), then I should inform you that this is a multiplayer game. Not single player. You play it by connecting to a server with preferably 5 or more players.

Do it all the time, at the door use the medkit, wedge yourself into the om with a painsaw while you fire a grenade. In about 5 secs, you are dead, and then the grenade explodes taking out the om. What does your second line have anything
to do with your 1st line, Its a multiplayer game? ok... Still has no bearing on how easy it is to take an om down
via that method.

If the aliens need to be rebuilding eggs because of gren rushes, then they either suck at building or wallwalking, and deserve it.

I agree about eggs, however it does not apply at all to the overmind.

Dragoons still have to aim to use their barbs efficiently. Same with mara.

Barely, I just chuck barbs, I don't aim, and I hit whatever I was *chucking* at...

Noone needs to inform them. If they camp, they lose, they will get it eventually. That's how it is supposed to be.

You read a little too deeply into that, it was a joke, aka please inform human to stop camping :|
It also 30 minutes of boredom.

It is great against dense human bases, making them not impenetrable. It tks if the player using it sux. It still needs to be aimed to be more useful.

The regular non splash snipe was ALSO perfectly fine against dense human bases, why add splash too?

(Oh btw, why the newlines in the middle of sentences O.o)

Why does this matter? Why not "sucks" instead of sux, since we are nitpicking.

[scrape]

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change.

Sorry, but saying it 10 times won't make it so.
* If a human makes it within a grenade's throw of the OM, the alien's defense (en-route plus active and passive within base) has failed.  Likewise for maras being able to get off more than one zap before dying.

Please read my above posts.
Yes, mara being able to get off more than one zap BEFORE dying,there is the key. However
the human can get off 1 big AoE AFTER dying, it cannot be stopped, kicked, muted, redirected, nothing.

* wave after wave of nades/maras isn't possible - if the team gets completely full before launching a rush (not likely without scrim discipline), they still get only 2 or 3 waves before being exhausted, unless they own the defenders along the way.

Generally, only 3 adv mara wave zaps are needed to take down the human base core. However wave after wave, of grenades
is possible, since the post mortem grenades easily earns 200 creds when it explodes, while you are dead.

* nade is just noticeable because of the delay between trigger and effect.  Do you also think luciballs, pulses and barbs should also vanish when the defender dies?  Would you be happier if the delay were .4 sec instead of 4?  As a human I would, since I'd have a chance of nading those pesky lisks when no one else is around.

No, and apparently you didn't read what I posted, I said lucis require aiming, charging, and firing, however
the grenade requires one key press, with no aim. Unfortunately an almost instant explosion of the grenade, once he
dies is just even worse, its suicide bomber time. Why is it a tough request, the human needs to live long enough to
see his bomb explode?

If you rush alone and are caught by a basilisk, and your only recourse is a post mortem grenade, then by the above
posters comments, you deserve your fate. You shouldn't rush alone.

* comparing a game to RL is silly but I'll do it anyway - how many WW-II grenades or land/sea mines operate the way you want?  They are *supposed* to do their thing without human involvement.

Not only is it silly. its also strawman, and nothing I can say in relation to the *game* could refute it.

To repeat: if grenades get to the OM then the builders and defenders aren't doing their job.  S2 is supposed to be more powerful than S1, and if grenades exist before trappers, or mara+'s before helmets, then the S2 team deserves to win.

1) This may have applied to 1.1 but not 1.2 with slower build point regen.
2) Also I am not talking about pre-stages, I am refering to s3/s3, so making stage comparsions is pointless.

To repeat: If any team can attack other teams primary structure, it should not have a weapon, with a strong AoE,
that fires after a defending team successfully kills the attacker.

[Bissig]

1) This may have applied to 1.1 but not 1.2 with slower build point regen.
2) Also I am not talking about pre-stages, I am refering to s3/s3, so making stage comparsions is pointless.

To repeat: If any team can attack other teams primary structure, it should not have a weapon, with a strong AoE,
that fires after a defending team successfully kills the attacker.

And you are making the rules what should or should not be part of the game?

[Norfenstein]

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change.

Maybe it does if you believe area effect weapons are inherently bad for the game or the grenade in particular is imbalanced, but if you don't it instead seems arbitrary and counterintuitive.

[Conzul]

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change.

Maybe it does if you believe area effect weapons are inherently bad for the game or the grenade in particular is imbalanced, but if you don't it instead seems arbitrary and counterintuitive.

They did pay good $$$ for it.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Scrape, why does it matter if the suicide attacker deals damage before or after death? It's still a specific amount of damage per rush. It's even easily dodgeable. And once again, if you manage to nade OM, the aliens don't have a clue how to build. In a proper base you won't even get a good look at OM before being trapped+swarmed/molten/mauled. And the nade usually does not give back 200 creds, while in your examples it would need to give 600 for bsuit+nade.

[Liskey]

To satisfy scrape's argument, the nade could be a suicide vest that explodes when the attacker dies.  The end result would be identical, or worse since aliens hearing a nade sound at least have a chance to flee.  (The human can flee too with nades, but the topic is suicide rushes, not hit & runs.)

Therefore whether the nade explodes before death or after is immaterial, and the argument for disabling nades after death (but not before) is a red herring.  You're saying you don't want nades at all.  I disagree.