Defence Computer should be improved

[Meisseli]

The Defence Computer is not strong and useful enough in my opinion.

1) A repair rate of 3 is not useful enough.
2) When human base gets under attack, and reactor is hurt for example, there are 2-3 repairers doing the job. The 3 points added by DC is not worth much.
3) The stackability of DC is not useful. Rarely do humans have a base spacey enough to fit >1 DCs. Those build points could also be used to build more turrets or teslas for example, which when placed well are worth far more than the DC(s).
4) DC takes space an equivalent of for example two teslas. Not a really good thing.
5) For a DC to heal for example 100hp it takes 30 seconds. Something which a single human does in 8 seconds. One would need 3 DCs to make it heal as fast as a human.
6) Yes, DC repairs all the buildings, but it doesn't really matter that much if the turret is 190 hp or 180 hp. What is important is that the key buildings such as reactor, armoury, and so on are kept in a good shape, not that all the buildings have +9 more HP.

Therefore I would like to see improvements to it. More repair rate per second, you could easily triple it and it wouldn't become overpowered. If there's a must to counter the improvement: perhaps the stackability of DCs could be removed if it's too good, since they take space in your base. Or you could add it's cost to become 10BP. Or perhaps a counter would be to make it heal only x max amount of buildables, starting from the most important building to the least important ones.

DC is the biggest concern in GPP 1.2 for me since it isn't useful. It is rarely used, and when it's used, it does no concrete effect to help the human base, to the contrary it takes space and makes another turret/tesla not available because of the 8 BP cost. It feels like 1.1 hovel to me, a 190hp barricade in the human base.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Or give it a total heal rate which is split between all buildings that need repair, like I suggested somewhere. Another nice thing would be for it to heal nearby buildings slightly faster, so the builder can choose what gets repaired first. This could in some cases make for much more interesting dc locations.

What exactly did you mean with 4) ?

[Meisseli]

Or give it a total heal rate which is split between all buildings that need repair, like I suggested somewhere. Another nice thing would be for it to heal nearby buildings slightly faster, so the builder can choose what gets repaired first. This could in some cases make for much more interesting dc locations.

What exactly did you mean with 4) ?

It takes space in the base equivalent of two teslas. In small maps this is a problem too (ATCS, UTCS, perhaps nano)

Oh, and your idea of a total heal rate is really good too.

[CorSair]

Or, if the repair rate would be percent (%) rated?

like, for example, repair rate: 5% per second... Time of total repair, 20 seconds.
Turret gots 190. 5% of its health; 9.5
Tesla has 220. 5% of its health; 11

Or any better ideas? I think it's bit unbalanced....

[Conzul]

I agree that it's repair rate is too slow now, but I'd be careful about raising it too much, or human bases will have too much alien characteristics. How about a different incentive? Make it 4BP, or give it a buttload of body points.... Even with that, repair rate should be more like 5/sec. I don't think the repair should be % based.

[jm82792]

I agree that it's repair rate is too slow now, but I'd be careful about raising it too much, or human bases will have too much alien characteristics. How about a different incentive? Make it 4BP, or give it a buttload of body points.... Even with that, repair rate should be more like 5/sec. I don't think the repair should be % based.

What he said.

[Saliva]

In my opinion dc shouldn't repair buildings at all. It's more fun when humans have to repair buildings manually and alien's buildings regenerate. It makes the gameplay different on each side. If it improved defenses like in 1.1 it would be more interesting. But if it has to stay as a building repairer it definitely needs to repair buildings faster. Low hp repair to all buildings isn't very efficient when you consider that adv.marauders and adv.dragoons both have high damage area attacks. It can rarely heal enough that you need one more zap to destroy a cluster of turrets for example. If it healed one building at a faster rate the building could survive longer against area attacks as well as the slash attack of aliens. So I propose to change the dc to repair hp to a single building equal to the amount of a human repairing a building. It could be useful at maintaining the base and allowing a builder that would otherwise repair the base to attack and it would help in defense if the human base is under constant but not overwhelming pressure.   

[David]

It's not designed to help during an attack, it's to prevent slow attrition attacks, and stop you from having to have a permanent mostly-idle builder to keep an eye on the base.
If you are getting attacked a lot, it's probably not worth it.  If you are going on the offensive then it can be very handy to not need to pay quite so much attention to the base.

[Norfenstein]

1 & 5) It's 3 * the number of structures that aren't at full health. And it's not slower on the reactor like the ckit is.
1, 2, & 6) Like David said, they're really for when you're not spending all your time in base defending. They're for the stray marauder that gets a zap in every once in a while but otherwise poses little threat.
3) For the price of one repeater you can build two defense computers that cover half your base...
4) ...unless for some reason you only build cramped bases in tiny rooms? You must have had some specific locations in mind when you wrote this... and besides, some times I specifically use one to block tyrants.

It kind of sounds like you don't play in smaller games very much. Maybe the DC gets less useful as the player load increases? In small enough games just having the warning when your base is under attack is useful enough.

[jm82792]

The DC is great when you want to prevent them from chewing your base up slowly.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

DC is not that much fun to destroy also, what is just as important as to build it ;-)

[Meisseli]

1 & 5) It's 3 * the number of structures that aren't at full health. And it's not slower on the reactor like the ckit is.
1, 2, & 6) Like David said, they're really for when you're not spending all your time in base defending. They're for the stray marauder that gets a zap in every once in a while but otherwise poses little threat.
3) For the price of one repeater you can build two defense computers that cover half your base...
4) ...unless for some reason you only build cramped bases in tiny rooms? You must have had some specific locations in mind when you wrote this... and besides, some times I specifically use one to block tyrants.

It kind of sounds like you don't play in smaller games very much. Maybe the DC gets less useful as the player load increases? In small enough games just having the warning when your base is under attack is useful enough.

So what concrete effect does it really have then? It's for the stray marauder that gets a zap in every once in a while you say. Is there really much difference between a building having 170hp or 190hp? For a damage so minimal one either needs to do nothing, or can just repair it in one touch of the conkit. Also is it worth to even bother with that marauder since it can't do anything? It sounds like DC is useful only as an extra since aliens have a bad team and can't win anyway.

For the price of one repeater I could build two teslas that actually kill the alien, aka do something useful.

It sounds like there is no really good use for it at all. Even for a barricade, it's bad. It has the same amount of HP as a turret, a structure that shoots aliens too. That can be used to block rants in ATCS ramp for example. If I really wanted to barricade something I'd go for armoury, for 2 extra bp you get over twice the HP of DC, 420.

I still find no incentive at all to ever build the DC. I'm afraid it will be left unused. I would really like DC having more concrete value. At least in 1.1, when DC was for teslas, people had a reason to snipe it down. Now imagine if you would snipe/try to destroy DC over any other building in your view. I don't think there's anyone who would do it.

[UniqPhoeniX]

DC also increases RC zap, which is sometimes a good enough reason to build it or for aliens to kill it.
For humans, I find DC very useful if the base gets attacked often, unless the aliens focus on something specific, or if you just don't have/can't afford a dedicated builder. Also, the less players you have, the more needed it is. But it could use some improvement.
About building reps instead: most of the time there are no good places for reps near the base, and outside base will die fast without defenders. Even if there is a spot for a repeater, at SD DC has a good chance of saving a vital structure.
Difference between 170 and 190 hp is that it takes 3 zap(chain)s instead of 4 to kill it.

[Norfenstein]

So what concrete effect does it really have then?

It lets humans attack more instead of stopping to repair their base after every minor hit. Because if they don't repair that minor damage it could mean losing everything when the next major attack comes.

[Meisseli]

So what concrete effect does it really have then?

It lets humans attack more instead of stopping to repair their base after every minor hit. Because if they don't repair that minor damage it could mean losing everything when the next major attack comes.

And I would still argue that minor hit wouldn't affect the outcome at all. I really fail to see the DC as the key building, that without it would quote mean losing everything.

It's a tool for lazy people, sure. But that's when there is no actual danger of the alien team actually being able to kill the human base. Every other time I would build some more useful of a building. Really, repairing those 10hps is what you do while you're waiting for the medi healing. And I would like to repeat 6).

I'm sorry but even still I fail to see DC having any really concrete effect while the other buildings sure have. I repeat my question if it could be improved.

[David]

I just build a 100% percent DC base, and yeah the rate is slow.

[KillerWhale]

I would really like to see the DC do something else entirely.

I think that it would be interesting to have the DC display the health of vital structures on the HUD, and do nothing more.
It would improve the responsiveness of the human team and make the DC more vital, also while preventing the ever so frustrating lame-hops in games where it is not warranted.

[SlackerLinux]

I would really like to see the DC do something else entirely.

I think that it would be interesting to have the DC display the health of vital structures on the HUD, and do nothing more.
It would improve the responsiveness of the human team and make the DC more vital, also while preventing the ever so frustrating lame-hops in games where it is not warranted.

RC hopping doesn't work when humans are smart enough to have atleast one defender. i think changing the DCC to that would be unfair to aliens also its a little late to do such a big change like that when the balance is so close.

[Cadynum]

The question isn't really whether a DC is better than no DC.
It's if it's justified to ever spend 8 precious BP on it.
The answer is no.

[Conzul]

The question isn't really whether a DC is better than no DC.
It's if it's justified to ever spend 8 precious BP on it.
The answer is no.

Yeah....even with a DC there is often still a dedicated engineer around to repair the DC, especially in large games. I always thought that was funny.

[Meisseli]

The question isn't really whether a DC is better than no DC.
It's if it's justified to ever spend 8 precious BP on it.
The answer is no.

For me personally it's also a matter of having another important building. Armoury, medi, nodes, reactor are all important, as are the base defenses turrets and teslas. But DC? Meh.

If it's this weak I would personally either improve it or remove it entirely from the game.

[jm82792]

Maye giving it some tesla(not as good as one but..) shock or something ??

[F50]

The question isn't really whether a DC is better than no DC.
It's if it's justified to ever spend 8 precious BP on it.
The answer is no.

For me personally it's also a matter of having another important building. Armoury, medi, nodes, reactor are all important, as are the base defenses turrets and teslas. But DC? Meh.

If it's this weak I would personally either improve it or remove it entirely from the game.

Well without a DC I would build a tesla by the reactor almost every game instead, which would have pretty much the same effect.

[God, maker of the world]

After reading the thread (and never having played 1.2), I suggest this (and these suggestions might be too late for 1.2, but the world doesn't end with 1.2, right):

It's a "defense computer" which means that it should have a purpose fitting to its name. It should not have a small tesla zap by itself or something. It's a computer.

The idea that it displays information about the current base state in the HUD is brilliant, I think. Maybe this display should be optional - temporary like the score display in the original client (I never saw a different client in action).

It should display a turret and a tesla icon, a number beside the icons telling how many of these defenses are alive, a little energy bar beside the icons telling the average health of these defenses. A reactor icon with energy bar (could be average health - keep modded servers with several reactors in mind). A node icon with number and average health. Armory icon with number and average health. Definitely a DC icon blablablabla, nuff said.

All icons should flash in some way when that kind of building is under attack. They should also somehow show if one of them is in action (aka shooting etc.)

Additionally, the defense computer should make the hitboxes for turrets slightly smaller - only from the view of the turrets! Because this would increase the probability for angles/situations in which turrets can shoot past other turrets, thus improving the defense situation which sounds kinda like the purpose of the defense computer.

Additionally, it could have a slight healing effect, and there are many options for this, so the following is just one grabbed out of thin air: First heal reactor until it's full. Then, heal the building next to reactor until it's full, and so forth in radius until everything's at full health. Maybe the radius-center should be the energy source (which can be a repeater instead of reactor) and also you'd need an extra defense computer in a remote attack base or it wouldn't be in the same energy radius system, but that might be tricky because of overlapping repeaters (can happen if a repeater falls from a high position).

If the radius-from-energysource(orreactor) option is chosen, it could also display the current radius position in the HUD so you could really kinda see the base situation in your mind.

[Conzul]

It should display a turret and a tesla icon, a number beside the icons telling how many of these defenses are alive, a little energy bar beside the icons telling the average health of these defenses. A reactor icon with energy bar (could be average health - keep modded servers with several reactors in mind). A node icon with number and average health. Armory icon with number and average health. Definitely a DC icon blablablabla, nuff said.

Nice, but a little too busy for everyone's screen. I don't think they should show unless they are being hurt. See below.

All icons should flash in some way when that kind of building is under attack.

YES! I think this is really good. Listen: if a DC is up, I think that a human player should have no hud change except for....
     Each structure that is built will have a cartoonish icon that flashes as that buildable takes damage. The color it would flash shows its relative health. So you're going along, suddenly near the bottom of your screen (or top) you see 2 green turrets flash. They flash again, now yellow. again, now orange, then red. By this you know that they are getting zapped or something. There should also be the option to continually flash a buildable icon until it gets repaired. I really like that idea of yours.

[TomAhawk]

i agree that it is a LITTLE underpowered now, but compaired to 1.1 its better in a way because lets be honest, the only reason most of us got a DC in 1.1 was for telsa, i could see the repair rate increased some, but remember if you up it too much there will be major inbalance (it sounds like some of you arent remembering that you have to kill DCs too when your aliens) I personally will usually make one to sheild the arm/RC from rant charge/goon snipes for a bit as well as give that repair bit that lets you not worry about minor damage.

[scrape]

Forgive me in advance if this idea is silly, I was in the sun too long today 

Perhaps the DC can function as a "Lighting rod" for mara zaps. Inside its field of influence,
the mara zap either has its damage lessened or it no longer functions. While it seems, after
many many more 1.2 games, goons still remain the primary attrition base killers, the mara is the
"keystone cop" version attacker (or maybe just play some benny hill music when a mara attacks:P)
Basically its easier to defend against goons, with base ff on, than an adv mara, its comical.

or the DC acts as a total damage shield, in its field of influence, it lessens all damage done to
structures. Even as an alien player, I can't see this as too op, since aliens structs all regen,
regardless of what structures are near.

I have similar ideas to revive the hovel, shame a gnarly asset like it, remains
unused.

[David]

IMO give the DC a RC like zap.

[Celestial_Rage]

So, make it another defensive structure? What if they just gave it more HP so it can be used to block ramps and stuff more effectively?

[Aelita]

The DC is pretty valuable as a ramp blocker right now. Boosting the HP slightly and maybe adding a weak zap (dretch damager level) would be a good idea to try out. I've seen many pub games change when a defense computer is built on the ramp in ATCS and it keeps rants from getting up into the shitty polak built base.