Mara+ should have to recharge like goon+ does with barbs

[zybork]

After dozens over dozens of games I request to limit the zap-capability of advanced marauders similar to the time it takes for the barbs to regrow in an advanced dragoon.

Mara-zaps have an effect similar to a human grenade, a single impact may be weaker, but they have “unlimited ammo”, and a fairly skilled player may single-handedly obliterate a human base alone. In combination with the painfully slow turrets, which do not hit a bouncing marauder, there is nearly nothing even well-placed turrets can do against that menace, and teslas are to weak to stop the mara in time.

A marauder should get exhausted by zaps, it should reduce its stamina and ability to move quickly OR simply deplete it, requiring a rest comparable to that of an advanced dragoon to regenerate zap-capability.

[Thoth]

Lets see here (btw, hai guyz ), how well placed are you talking about? Turrets, as you mentioned, are slow but any decent builder can make a base that won't get raped by a mara. I agree with you on the "not hitting bouncing maras," this should be fixed in some way, since I play as a mara a lot and I rarely get hit by rets unless I sit in front of them. Nah, regenerating zap defeats the purpose of even having it imo. Goons should have it because they can destroy a ret with two barbs but it takes a mara about 6 zaps before it goes boom(correct if wrong). You can't really compare it to nades, nades are much more powerful than maras. They can sometimes take out 6 or more structures in a alien base. I like the idea of reducing its speed, but then again, maras are supposed to move fast, so maybe like 1/4 of its speed can be taken after a certain amount of zaps? I think it should be left alone, good builders know to build the base Alien Stage 2 ready since it usually takes humans longer to get to Stage 2.

[Lecavalier]

Maybe if maras movement was slowed and jumping reduced the more it zapped? This way, lone maras would still be good at ambushes, but wouldn't be able to obliterate the human base.  

edit: and I believe it's 3 zaps to kill a ret, but you can kill several rets simultaneously

[Meisseli]

5 zaps to kill ret. Maras are easy enough to kill and block from zapping too much. Massdriver, chaingun and building a good base (yes, even well-placed turrets kill a mara) work very well. If a mara really kills a base by itself, either your base or you have failed miserably.

What should instead be done in my opinion is make goons regenerate barbs faster near a booster so they would have more of a job in killing a base.

[Lecavalier]

5 zaps to kill ret. Maras are easy enough to kill and block from zapping too much. Massdriver, chaingun and building a good base (yes, even well-placed turrets kill a mara) work very well. If a mara really kills a base by itself, either your base or you have failed miserably.

What should instead be done in my opinion is make goons regenerate barbs faster near a booster so they would have more of a job in killing a base.

so that's why those rets i zap 3 times don't die 

[Aelita]

Maybe if maras movement was slowed and jumping reduced the more it zapped? This way, lone maras would still be good at ambushes, but wouldn't be able to obliterate the human base.  

edit: and I believe it's 3 zaps to kill a ret, but you can kill several rets simultaneously

No, no no NO. Do NOT fuck the Mara up any more. I am sick and tired of having my favorite alien fucked up. The entire design point of the Mara, as far as I can see, is the fact that it's light, quick, and speedy. The time between 5 zaps for rets is more than sufficient for the rets to shred the Mara apart. The only two things you need to worry about in your base is if your turrets are close enough together that a Mara (or a Goon for that matter) can dance on them and keep them from targetting, or if your RC is hoppable (i.e. in ATCS most frequently) and the Mara can sit up there, chomp on the RC, and zap shit in the meantime. Both are preventable with a well designed base (turrets spread out, but not too far, and a well protected RC)

[KillerWhale]

I'd like to see mara with an exhaustible zap, but I'd like to see it be a long zap.

When you zap, you could hold zap down and it would do a continuous stream of damage with a charge bar. When the charge bar depletes, you could no longer zap until you let it recharge (relatively quickly, I would hope). I think this would add some greater diversity to the uses of zap and actually make the marauder a more versatile class.

I think this method would be preferable to the "barb" method of regeneration and would fit the use of the marauder much better.

[Conzul]

No.

[UniqPhoeniX]

It's FOUR zaps to kill a turret/medi/dc/tesla. 60 damage per zap, 190 hp (220 for tesla). I can't believe you didn't know that, Meis.

[zybork]

Killerwhale, I like your approach, something like the trample-charge-bar or the luci-charge-bar or the pounce-charge-bar, yeah, that could do the trick.

But maybe the mara ain't the problem but the too slow turrets, however, I made the experience, that it takes only one fairly skilled advanced marauder to kill an entire base even if it is built well, and if you happen to have lag, that lag skyrockets in such a situation, and you won't be able to hit the damn thing at all.

Before I opened this thread here, I devmapped around in Karith, trying to find a mara-prove base, and whatever I did, even I, being pretty unskilled with mara, could devastate the whole thing while zapping and moving around, one or two times I even got away without being hit by a turret, no matter were they were.

Maybe we could leave mara+ as it is, but make turrets tougher or something?

[KillerWhale]

The problem with making turrets stronger is that they are already pretty damn strong against everything that isn't a Marauder.

There would be nil use for goon if the turrets were made fast enough to catch Maras.

[zybork]

I wouldn't say that turrets are too strong, for you mustn't group them closely or else they die by mara-zaps, but I already have seen s1-grangers taking out single turrets without too much trouble, and I *did* see goons hopping around a base, not getting hit by those slow-moving things, and eating that base.

There definetely has to be done something about the system of human base defences.

Fights between aliens and humans are much better balanced than in 1.1, alien buildings are also good, but human buildings still need refinements, for instance for the useless DC, the slow turrets, et cetera.

[Conzul]

but I already have seen s1-grangers taking out single turrets without too much trouble,

If there is such a thing as a single-turret, it deserves taking out.

Aliens and humans are different. Aliens die without using their mobility, humans die without aimbotting. Get used to it.

[SlackerLinux]

....
but I already have seen s1-grangers taking out single turrets without too much trouble, and I *did* see goons hopping around a base, not getting hit by those slow-moving things, and eating that base.
....

well if a granger can take out a turret then your team isnt defending too well you cant expect the turrets to do everything for you same with the goon have human defenders to help the turrets(and by defenders i dont mean your whole team with mders lasguns or chainsuits thats camping and is lame just 1-2 players is needed) alien bases are the same i can rush right to overmind in most bases drop my nade and do enough damage with the gun i got to take it down easy if the base has no defenders its your job to defend not the base defenses its their job to help you

[Meisseli]

It's FOUR zaps to kill a turret/medi/dc/tesla. 60 damage per zap, 190 hp (220 for tesla). I can't believe you didn't know that, Meis.

Oh, I accidentally used the claw damage instead of zap >.> 5 claws, 4 zaps.

I wouldn't say that turrets are too strong, for you mustn't group them closely or else they die by mara-zaps, but I already have seen s1-grangers taking out single turrets without too much trouble, and I *did* see goons hopping around a base, not getting hit by those slow-moving things, and eating that base.

There definetely has to be done something about the system of human base defences.

Fights between aliens and humans are much better balanced than in 1.1, alien buildings are also good, but human buildings still need refinements, for instance for the useless DC, the slow turrets, et cetera.

Don't touch the new build system please. It's the best thing since cake invented! Human building is fun, creative - not just those semi-circle turret formations in a corner. In my opinion the possible base locations have multiplied in every map too. And placing a turret actually requires you to think a little before doing it. If they are well-placed they surely get rid of a mara too.

@Zybork: If you base your opinion on that you can take a human base with an alien class when it's empty, well. Any empty human base can be taken out with a single alien in either of the versions.

[Asvarox]

I'd like to see mara with an exhaustible zap, but I'd like to see it be a long zap.

When you zap, you could hold zap down and it would do a continuous stream of damage with a charge bar. When the charge bar depletes, you could no longer zap until you let it recharge (relatively quickly, I would hope). I think this would add some greater diversity to the uses of zap and actually make the marauder a more versatile class.

I think this method would be preferable to the "barb" method of regeneration and would fit the use of the marauder much better.

While it would make adv mara 2x more fun, it think it would make it much weaker too - continuous stream of damage was used in 1.1 and made zap basically useless. It would be great as a mod though, like DS' bouncy barbs or something

[Norfenstein]

In the last GPP phase, the zap got about as many structure kills as barbs did (barb: 14.7%, zap: 15%), and both got less than the goon bite and marauder slash (bite: 21.1%, slash: 20.5%). Overall, goons were about 5% better at killing structures than marauders.

[Calmarius]

Aliens have infinite stamina so subtracting a finite amount from an infinite value lets it as infinite... That's why mara+ won't get exhausted after zapping... Which is bad...

Anyway a good human base is compact to concentrate the turret firepower when sd comes since the bp is limited. Now several maras can zap out the defenses in seconds and game over...

Humans' only chance is immediately rush the alien base in a large group while chatting with and giving orders to each other using team speak or similar service and kill every alien while they are drenches and win the game in the first 2 minutes (before they get the free evo). But you rarely see such organized human rushes. If good alien players got goons then the game is over for the humans.

But aliens can work in group too... When 5 drenches and 5 humans clash I don't know who have better chance.

[Kiwi]

In the last GPP phase, the zap got about as many structure kills as barbs did (barb: 14.7%, zap: 15%), and both got less than the goon bite and marauder slash (bite: 21.1%, slash: 20.5%). Overall, goons were about 5% better at killing structures than marauders.

True, but that's the overall picture.  Once half of the humans base is dead and all the turrets are gone, it doesn't really matter whether goons or murderers kill the rest of the base, but your stats don't account for that.

I agree with meis, goons should regen barbs faster near booster/basi/creep just like hp.

[F50]

If good alien players got goons then the game is over for the humans.

In some ways, its good to see new names on the forums, in other ways... *retches*.

And yes, it would be nice to regenerate barbs faster near a booster, although that could significantly increase the amount of damage a goon+ could do to a human base.

[Celestial_Rage]

Which would significantly increase the incentive to rush their base is being eaten away, or at least kill the forward booster/egg that is allowing the aliens to keep this crushing rush.

On a quick side note, does one goon barb still take 10 sec to regen? It feels much longer, but I really have not kept count.

[Norfenstein]

Fifteen seconds now.

I sympathize with wanting faster barb regen near boosters, but I'm really reluctant make a change like that at this time; it might feel more right, but it won't improve the balance (since I think the balance is fine right now), and has a good chance of negatively impacting it.

[jm82792]

5 zaps to kill ret. Maras are easy enough to kill and block from zapping too much. Massdriver, chaingun and building a good base (yes, even well-placed turrets kill a mara) work very well. If a mara really kills a base by itself, either your base or you have failed miserably.

What should instead be done in my opinion is make goons regenerate barbs faster near a booster so they would have more of a job in killing a base.

THIS!
Seriously a really good idea that should be implemented into the GPP.

[jez]

I agree that barb recharge feels like it should go faster around boosters/basilisks or on creep. The obvious thing to change if the consensus is this makes barbs too strong is the base regen time.

I think putting increased emphasis on forward boosters can only be good for the game. More dynamic games, offence > defence etc.

[jm82792]

Well to make it more reasonable we could make barb regeneration slower than it is now,
and make it faster than it's former value when on a booster.
Then you'd be more tied to the booster,
but maybe that's a good thing.

[kevi3434]

I agree the Turrets are way too slow even a human player could act faster. Turrets in 1.2 are becoming quite useless when it comes to fast aliens. The ADV Mara's zap is insanely powerful. It should either be lowered in damage or have a recharge time of approximately 5 seconds before it gains another 3 pulses. Like the Dragoon has 3 Barbs a Mara should have 3 - 5 Pulses of electricity.

[Silver]

In the last GPP phase, the zap got about as many structure kills as barbs did (barb: 14.7%, zap: 15%), and both got less than the goon bite and marauder slash (bite: 21.1%, slash: 20.5%). Overall, goons were about 5% better at killing structures than marauders.

I think a large portion of that is because most people are more familiar with goon.  Even though adv mara is a stronger class than goon in 1.2 almost everyone playing 1.2 started playing 1.1 years ago and goon was almost always the primary choice.  I even finding myself going goon a lot because just out of habit and I've implanted my brain that I'll do better with goon than mara even though I know the opposite to be true based on my time playing 1.2.

[Meisseli]

In the last GPP phase, the zap got about as many structure kills as barbs did (barb: 14.7%, zap: 15%), and both got less than the goon bite and marauder slash (bite: 21.1%, slash: 20.5%). Overall, goons were about 5% better at killing structures than marauders.

I think a large portion of that is because most people are more familiar with goon.  Even though adv mara is a stronger class than goon in 1.2 almost everyone playing 1.2 started playing 1.1 years ago and goon was almost always the primary choice.  I even finding myself going goon a lot because just out of habit and I've implanted my brain that I'll do better with goon than mara even though I know the opposite to be true based on my time playing 1.2.

Mara isn't individually stronger at all. However it's a teamwork class; a team of marauders is a lot stronger than a team of goons.

[Silver]

In the last GPP phase, the zap got about as many structure kills as barbs did (barb: 14.7%, zap: 15%), and both got less than the goon bite and marauder slash (bite: 21.1%, slash: 20.5%). Overall, goons were about 5% better at killing structures than marauders.

I think a large portion of that is because most people are more familiar with goon.  Even though adv mara is a stronger class than goon in 1.2 almost everyone playing 1.2 started playing 1.1 years ago and goon was almost always the primary choice.  I even finding myself going goon a lot because just out of habit and I've implanted my brain that I'll do better with goon than mara even though I know the opposite to be true based on my time playing 1.2.

Mara isn't individually stronger at all. However it's a teamwork class; a team of marauders is a lot stronger than a team of goons.

I beg to differ.  One mara can take out a team of humans a lot easier than a goon, especially nakeds.  I love the extreme damage zap does to nakeds(or even armoured folk)  If you get s2 before humans and get some zap going it's fun-times.  Plus a single mara can do more to a base than a goon if it's used right.  Adv goon maybe not but adv goon generally has to keep it's distance and the barb regen takes forever.   

If you know how to use mara, mara is much more effective than goon in 1.2.  Sure a goon may have a higher DPS, the mara is easier to not die with and it's zap's range +  multi target pwns any goon's hits.  Not to mention zap does equal full damage to all targets now so technically if you have a group of humans mara's dps smashes even a rants with zap.  If you get 6 nakeds it can do 240 damage in an instant.

1v1 goon is probably stronger but a mara can keep up with the goon just fine as well as being more versatile with and against groups.

[Meisseli]

Mara isn't individually stronger at all. However it's a teamwork class; a team of marauders is a lot stronger than a team of goons.

I beg to differ.  One mara can take out a team of humans a lot easier than a goon, especially nakeds.  I love the extreme damage zap does to nakeds(or even armoured folk)  If you get s2 before humans and get some zap going it's fun-times.  Plus a single mara can do more to a base than a goon if it's used right.  Adv goon maybe not but adv goon generally has to keep it's distance and the barb regen takes forever.    

If you know how to use mara, mara is much more effective than goon in 1.2.  Sure a goon may have a higher DPS, the mara is easier to not die with and it's zap's range +  multi target pwns any goon's hits.  Not to mention zap does equal full damage to all targets now so technically if you have a group of humans mara's dps smashes even a rants with zap.  If you get 6 nakeds it can do 240 damage in an instant.

1v1 goon is probably stronger but a mara can keep up with the goon just fine as well as being more versatile with and against groups.

I would argue otherwise. Even though a skilled marauder can indeed be devastating, equally skilled goon will almost always be better in killing. You never have that much nakeds around unless the other team really sucks and a goon can take them down much faster with well aimed pounces. Even against groups goon can be in a lot of cases better, since with skillful pouncing you can retreat much faster than with mara jumps. Marauders are also very easy to kill and chase with massdriver. Two rifles work extremely well too, as does a chaingunner. As a base-killer goon surely has other attacks than just snipe, although snipe rushing the reactor is the best base-killing tactic. Only two pounces to kill a turret, and one can combine snipes+pounces+chomps very creatively to be an effective base-killer. Where marauder zaps distribute the damage equally to buildings, a goon can take individual, 1-3 key buildings very effectively down.

The only exception is clanwars, where the teamwork capabilities of marauder can be used to fullest extent. In clanwars marauders beat goons easily, although in Niveus for example the human base area is very favourable to goons. Usually you want to go almost full marauders but it's a major benefit to have one goon though for flanking and so on.