Dretchipede

[Venkman]

Let me start off by stating that I love the Dretch. As it is now, the (GPP) Dretch is my second favorite class to play, right behind Mara. And Aliens are always my first choice. So, yeah...

I heart

Now, my idea...

   Basically what I’m suggesting is that we ( ...and by “we" I mean you guys because I can’t code for shit) completely rework the Dretch into a centipede-like arachnid, an “arachnapide” if you will, with a longer narrow body shaped into a perpetual S-curve. The S-curve of the body will swivel automatically as the player crawls, meaning that the head (being controlled by the player's mouse) will move independently of the the body's automated gyration.

Here’s a rough concept of a Dretchipede-model's movements while crawling in a straight line over a distance of, say, 2 feet...



So, if a player is on the floor and crawling forward, it’s head will continue to point forward while it’s body will go through a full reverse of it’s “S” shape for every 1-2 feet that the Dretch travels in that direction. The curved body should not turn if the head is turned simply to look, but only if the player has started forward in that new direction. Then, the “S” curve animation will have to somehow accommodate for the change in direction (not to mention all of the OTHER shit you’ll have to animate for this thing to work...)

Here’s how I see the scale of a Dretchipede, compared to the current Dretch...



I know this is a HUGE concept that would take more work than I could even fathom and, in that respect, I truly wish I could help. But I’ve also thought long and hard ( ::chuckle:: ) about this one concept and I think it might actually be worth considering...

Reasons:

1.|
Many players have complained that the new balance between (GPP) Dretch and naked rifle is unfair and lets the Humans control  the early minutes of most rounds.

I know that, in some respects, this aspect is important because Aliens are extremely fast and would otherwise definitely control almost every round  (depending on the size of a map) from the beginning if not. But, still, there might be some room for improvement here.

2.|
A skilled Dretch against an equally-skilled Human is still almost always at a (slight) disadvantage. This has a lot to do with proximity; specifically how quickly a Dretch can reach and maintain an attacking-range while not being seen versus how quickly a Dretch can kill a naked human.

Now if a Dretch could remain undetected after the first bite, this wouldn’t be an issue, but it can’t. Once the Dretch’s first bite is landed, his cover is pretty much always blown unless the terrain is greatly to the Dretch’s advantage. And, for that matter, the Dretch probably SHOULD make a noise after biting or else risk becoming a bit OP in the sneak-attack department.

My point being, because of how easy it is for a rifle to land the requisite number of shots on a Dretch already within biting-range, a player controlling a Dretch has to be practically un-shootable to survive the wrath of even one naked rifle. The same can’t be said for one rifle against even 2 or 3 Dretches, depending on how well the human can aim/dance.

And there's the rub: Because, in simple physical terms, it's usually a lot easier to evade while retreating than it is the evade while closing. It comes down to the attacker's target shrinking in size versus the attacker's target  growing in size.

3.|
As a regular builder, I’ve developed the habit of clocking any other (unauthorized) Grangers that happen to spawn in my base; ESPECIALLY those who immediately run out into the fray. As most of you might remember, I’m not a very big fan of Battle Grangers because they only ensure that the Human team will have an endless amount of kills and that the player in question will have only wasted their time trying to learn how to fight with the one alien class that ISN’T designed for the battlefield.

Now, there are numerous causes for attempting to “battle-grange”, but I think I’ve finally traced it’s main source: Tremulous, like most truly fun games, has a bit of a learning curve and the Dretch is a large  part of this curve. Basically, here’s a noob battle-granger’s train of thought...

“Oh, COOL! Aliens! I wanna play as ALIENS! ...Melee attacks? Oh, because they can’t use guns. They’re just like... bugs... Okay, gonna try ‘em out, anyway... ::CLICK:: Okay, some words. Not reading those... ::CLICK:: 25 health, alright.  I’m quick and small and... I’m dead?! ALREADY? ...Fuck a Dretch. What’s the other option? ::CLICK::50 health? NOW WE’RE TALKIN’! Okay, left-click builds and right-click... ATTACKS! Yes! That last stupid alien didnt even HAVE an attack. What was that about? Maybe those words next to it’s name explained it or... I’m fucking DEAD?! I didn’t even get CLOSE to that guy! Okay, let’s try this again... 25hp alien with no attack or 50hp alien WITH an attack? Easy choice...”

Hopefully, the new player will realize the error of their ways after a few rounds of being gang-raped and they’ll go back and actually read about the game and discover that the Dretch can wall-walk and attacks automatically and that to try and fight with a Granger is just plain stupid.

The problem is, it seems that there’s always another noob battle-granger to take their place. Why this is such a problem (as you Devs well know because you designed the game; I’m just trying to be thorough...) is that it causes the entire Alien team to suffer. Every time someone feeds a Granger (which is worth more than a Dretch) to the Human team, it brings them one kill closer to a stage increase and an unfair advantage over the round (*unfair in the sense that it’s not rightly earned...)

So how do we solve this problem? Should we treat every new player like a child and make a big “NOT A COMBAT CLASS, DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT WITH THIS ALIEN” window pop-up every time a player selects the Granger?

The fact is, we can post all the text we want. Some people just don’t like to read.

 Now, I usually hate pandering to the dumbest demographic, but I found myself thinking...
“What if there was a way to somehow make the Dretch more desirable to noobs while also making it easier for them to play? Is there a way to make the Aliens’ starting class more user-friendly?”

Though, I‘m pretty sure the answer is...
“Yes, but probably not without throwing off the entire balance of a game that has already gone through many variation to become as well-balanced as it is.” Meaning you can’t just give the Dretch more HP or make it faster, etc.

But what if they’re was a way to make the Dretch harder to hit WITHOUT making it faster or smaller?


...Which brings us to my “centipede-shaped body” idea and its automated S-curve pattern of movement.  I think it could help make the Dretch harder to hit CONSISTENTLY (meaning with each individual shot contained within a burst) without the need to make it faster. This would also make the Dretch slightly harder to kill, technically speaking, without needing to increase it’s HP count. On the other hand, if a noob-Dretch charges straight at a Human, it will still be easy to pump enough bullets into the Dretch to kill it before it can even take a bite.

There’s always going to be pro-humans who are just plain sick at predicting Dretch-movements, but at least the S-curve will give them a second variable to have to compensate for. It also gives the Dretch an added level of movement that doesn’t require the player to pull off endless variations of disorienting wall-crawl ballet. Not only could it allow a Dretch to last a moment or two longer in the fray, but it might also make them a bit harder to hit from a distance. Which helps against those unlagged-hall-camping Mass-Driving whores! ::cough:: Sorry...

Anyway, that’s all I have. I hope the feedback was, at the very least, helpful. I know you guys are doing this for free, so I’m not expecting any miracles. I just love the game and this was an idea I had put a lot of thought into, so thanks for reading.

[jm82792]

Please boil down your point into a small short paragraph.
New dretch, okay erm I like the current concept for looks.

[UniqPhoeniX]

1. Centipedes don't swivel (btw in snake swivel motion the curves stay above the same point on the ground)
2. Rigging, skinning, and animating lots of legs is a PITA
3. With the current movement speed of the dretch, the swivel would have to be WAY TOO FAST
4. Turning animations can't be done properly without skeletal animation, or maybe segmented model which is, again, a PITA
5. Whether a bullet hits depends on the bbox not the motions of the model
6. From front the swivel motions would create a similar cross section as the current dretch (unlike a dretch moving side to side), from side it doesn't make much difference, except it's longer
7. Because the bbox can't rotate in q3, it will have to be as wide as it is long, and also as high if you want to keep wallwalking, so box shaped
8. Without increasing HP or changing the auto attack your battle granger point is irrelevant.

Basically this is a VERY complex change just to make the dretch harder to hit?
Many of these problems can be solved with a new engine, but I'd still prefer a simpler solution that doesn't differ as much from the well known/loved dretch.
Maybe a separate hit box that is smaller than the bbox, tho this would put an even bigger gap between newbies and ppl with uber aim.
Domination would allow aliens to be slightly less aggressive and wait for the humans instead of having to attack them head on (or simply wait for a couple evos if humans camp), among other differences, so it *could* potentially fix the dretch/rifle balance, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Venkman]

Please boil down your point into a small short paragraph.
New dretch, okay erm I like the current concept for looks.

I was trying to properly explain the reasons for my concept. Tremulous seems like a pretty well thought-out game and I figured any proposed changes should be so as well.

1. Centipedes don't swivel (btw in snake swivel motion the curves stay above the same point on the ground)

Really, I was using "centipede" as just an insect-themed reference for my concept, which was actually inspired by the movements of a slithering snake more than anything. Of course, the Dretchapide's "slither" would have to be quite a bit faster than any Earth-born creature is probably capable of.

5. Whether a bullet hits depends on the bbox not the motions of the model

Somewhere in my brain, I knew that. Still, thanks for correcting me. Those are definitely two different things.

2. Rigging, skinning, and animating lots of legs is a PITA
3. With the current movement speed of the dretch, the swivel would have to be WAY TOO FAST
4. Turning animations can't be done properly without skeletal animation, or maybe segmented model which is, again, a PITA
|...|
7. Because the bbox can't rotate in q3, it will have to be as wide as it is long, and also as high if you want to keep wallwalking, so box shaped

Yeah, I'm crap at computer science and forget how limited the Q3 engine is, sometimes. And if the concept is too much work for not enough potential gain, then that's that. Maybe I'll go teach myself how to code and make a "Dretchipede" mod  

8. Without increasing HP or changing the auto attack your battle granger point is irrelevant.

My theory was that, if the Dretch were replaced with the Dretchipede and the Dretchipeded actually ended up being slightly harder to hit as I had hypothesized, then new players might not be SO frustrated when they died 10 seconds into their first charge rather than 5. Combine this with the fact that seeing all those other players slithering around the walls and ceilings in rapid S-patterns will make the dumpy-ass Granger look as useless in combat as it actually is. And maybe THEN new players won't be so tempted to battle-grange.

Of course, it's just a theory with a lot of 'if's. And, as you've already pointed out, one that would require a kidney stone-painful workload of coding to bring to life.

Either way, though, I appreciate the response and your detailed points.

[Saliva]

What the dretch needs is to be more skill based. A dretch should be able to defeat a rifle because he evaded the shots using some sort of skill based ability. Just trying to wallwalk around often isn't a solution even against mediocre rifles. Low hp combined with the high dps and rapid fire of the rifle makes the dretch severely disadvantaged.

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

[Meisseli]

What the dretch needs is to be more skill based. A dretch should be able to defeat a rifle because he evaded the shots using some sort of skill based ability. Just trying to wallwalk around often isn't a solution even against mediocre rifles. Low hp combined with the high dps and rapid fire of the rifle makes the dretch severely disadvantaged.

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

A small pounce with a high headshot damage would do it. However Saliva's latter statement is correct and the OPs idea is both silly and impossible to do.

[Venkman]

What the dretch needs is to be more skill based. A dretch should be able to defeat a rifle because he evaded the shots using some sort of skill based ability. Just trying to wallwalk around often isn't a solution even against mediocre rifles. Low hp combined with the high dps and rapid fire of the rifle makes the dretch severely disadvantaged.

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

A small pounce with a high headshot damage would do it. However Saliva's latter statement is correct and the OPs idea is both silly and impossible to do.

I agree that the Dretch is still a bit lacking. It needs something more. Not a big something. Just SOMETHING.

Meisseli's idea is one of the better ones I've heard. I hate to admit it, but back before I knew about Trem and was stuck playing Natural Selection, there was actually ONE aspect of their starting alien-class that I liked:

For a small amount of points, a zergling(?) could purchase the ability to pounce. It wasn't a great distance... Maybe half the length of one stretch in the A.T.C.S. hallway... But it WAS effective in one specific area: Clearing that final stretch of your approach to land a head-bite before the human could turn to open fire.

Anyway, Meis's idea reminded me of how helpful the zergling's pounce was in later rounds (in my opinion, the class was practically unplayable without it...) and I think making a similarly subtle addition to the Dretch might solve all of our problems.

[Celestial_Rage]

I'm all for increasing the attack against unarmored humans/unhelmeted humans.

[CorSair]

Just a quick idea.

A special ability that comes when aliens (or preferrably, humans) stage up. Skill that boosts something (or some) in these categories: speed, jump height, increased damage and increased bite rate. The ability needs to be activated, and works for 30 secs.

Code: [Select]

Bite damage: 36 ----------> 40
Speed:       1.4 ---------> 1.5

If this amount would be granted for 30 seconds, when activating ability, would this affect balance much?

My opinion has started to tend that dretch is weak against naked rifle. So, I would provide this ability, to give edge against well-armored humans.
And only way to kill human, is that you need to be skilled dretch user of sort, or hope that humans have bad aim and are clumsy in dodging.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I'd recommend avoiding 'special' abilities that have a non-obvious effect. Besides simply increasing speed ~7 % won't make much difference, and the bite increase only matters if you get close. Part of the problem is that usually you don't.

If s1 is balanced, it could be because dretch is about as good for it's value (kill reward) as rifle is, just that rifle is better and gives a higher reward. Thus it dies less often at s1 but in total gives about as much to aliens for the next stage as dretch. It may be balanced, but still annoying for aliens. Perhaps we could get some stats about how often dretches kill rifles in s1 vs s1 on average and the other way around (I'm guessing logs don't contain much info about human equipment tho).
It's just as possible that other s1 alien classes are simply better than any humans without helms and make up for the weakness of dretch.

[Meisseli]

I'd recommend avoiding 'special' abilities that have a non-obvious effect. Besides simply increasing speed ~7 % won't make much difference, and the bite increase only matters if you get close. Part of the problem is that usually you don't.

If s1 is balanced, it could be because dretch is about as good for it's value (kill reward) as rifle is, just that rifle is better and gives a higher reward. Thus it dies less often at s1 but in total gives about as much to aliens for the next stage as dretch. It may be balanced, but still annoying for aliens. Perhaps we could get some stats about how often dretches kill rifles in s1 vs s1 on average and the other way around (I'm guessing logs don't contain much info about human equipment tho).
It's just as possible that other s1 alien classes are simply better than any humans without helms and make up for the weakness of dretch.

S1 is balanced because goon and marauder are simply better than S1 humans while the dretch is horrible. Once you get those few kills with a dretch after 6 deaths or so you'll be rewarded with some really strong classes and I think there's a major issue here.

For example in Nano the state of the dretch is horrible and causes a major unbalance. You'll die so many times without even damaging a human and the games end too often with aliens stuck with the dretch while humans enjoy their S2/S3 weaponry.

[Venkman]

I've always been a sucker for trying to master classes and weapons that are considered under-powered by other players, simply because of how badass it feels when you're able to pwn with them.

In Nazi Zombies, while everybody else is desperately trying to get a ray-gun or a flamethrower to power-up, I'm the guy taking out a stream of thirty maggot-sacks with half a clip from his upgraded Type-100. In Trem 1.1, it seemed like I was usually the only one consistently playing Mara anymore but I was determined to figure it out.

Now the (1.2) Mara is arguably the best Alien class (the most versatile anyway), especially it's advanced form. So, my new mission has been to improve my Dretch-skill as much as possible. And, in doing so, I've realized that all of this...

S1 is balanced because goon and marauder are simply better than S1 humans while the dretch is horrible. Once you get those few kills with a dretch after 6 deaths or so you'll be rewarded with some really strong classes and I think there's a major issue here.

For example in Nano the state of the dretch is horrible and causes a major unbalance. You'll die so many times without even damaging a human and the games end too often with aliens stuck with the dretch while humans enjoy their S2/S3 weaponry.

...is why my desire to truly pwn with Dretch might just be a lost cause, after all. If only there was some way to improve the Dretch without disrupting the over-all balance of the game. Come on, brain, quit being so high all the time and THINK!

[WoGoMo]

IMO, one thing that might improve dretch is to increase the strafe speed slightly so it can dodge better.

[jm82792]

Yeah I kill most of my dretches when they strafe, well a fat portion of them.

[Kiwi]

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

I think reducing the dps of the rifle would fix most of the problems that arise from dretches being underpowered at the beginning of the game.

[Plague Bringer]

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

I think reducing the dps of the rifle would fix most of the problems that arise from dretches being underpowered at the beginning of the game.

And it would also severely limit a naked human's ability to kill anything in later stages. Balance is GAME WIDE.

[Meisseli]

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

I think reducing the dps of the rifle would fix most of the problems that arise from dretches being underpowered at the beginning of the game.

And it would also severely limit a naked human's ability to kill anything in later stages. Balance is GAME WIDE.

And that's fine and dandy, as the rifle is already too good. It's more of a weapon worth some 200 credits now. Shotgun pales in comparison for example.

[Celestial_Rage]

Admittedly, the shotgun isn't as good as it was in 1.1, but it certainly still has its merits.

[CreatureofHell]

The drawing of the Dretch looks like an Ultralisk.

[Meisseli]

Admittedly, the shotgun isn't as good as it was in 1.1, but it certainly still has its merits.

Not really. Rifle is almost always better than a shotgun since with the new shotgun it is impossible to chase aliens (or for that matter,  even hit an alien in mid range). And when you get those few dretch kills it's skipped anyways in favour of a better weapon, such as lasgun or massdriver.

Admitted that the old shotgun was in par with chaingun.

[gimhael]

So now humans should get a free shotgun at start and can buy a rifle for 150 creds ?

[Meisseli]

So now humans should get a free shotgun at start and can buy a rifle for 150 creds ?

Eh..?

However as I understand something like that won't be done so I'm afraid we just have to accept the dretch as it is.

I think reducing the dps of the rifle would fix most of the problems that arise from dretches being underpowered at the beginning of the game.

At least I remembered Kiwi's idea like this.

[Saliva]

So now humans should get a free shotgun at start and can buy a rifle for 150 creds ?

In it's current state the shotgun is a more appropriate starting weapon than the rifle. Shotgun vs. dretch is way more fair to the dretch than when compared to rifle. I wouldn't mind switching them.

[CorSair]

Hmm. My usual problem with shotgun is that it seems all pellets hit dretch or other class, but it actually misses, even if all 11 pellets hits on dretch, or almost dead dragoon.

So now humans should get a free shotgun at start and can buy a rifle for 150 creds ?

In it's current state the shotgun is a more appropriate starting weapon than the rifle. Shotgun vs. dretch is way more fair to the dretch than when compared to rifle. I wouldn't mind switching them.

Wait whaaat.
I still say that shotgun is terrific weapon against dragoons and bigger alien kin.

Balance is GAME WIDE.

... And this would lead to unbalance to later games, though I don't know how much. And then again, it needs testing.

However, I still must admit, that dretches are way too far easy to kill with rifles. Bleh, I can't make good argument, wether shotgun should be replaced as starting gun, lower DPS of rifle, or improve dretch. I Would say that it would drop between lowering rifle's DPS and improving dretch, but this was just a quick idea.

[Tremulant]

I'd love to see how swapping the rifle and shotty would effect game dynamics, i imagine it would make a big difference to the human team's ability to rush early on in a match, on tremor, for instance.

[A Spork]

I would be intrigued to...

[CreatureofHell]

I dislike shotguns. They look silly. 

[Venkman]

I'd love to see how swapping the rifle and shotty would effect game dynamics, i imagine it would make a big difference to the human team's ability to rush early on in a match, on tremor, for instance.

This debate has made me quite curious, as well. Any chance of trying it out on GPP's U.S. server for a day or two?

IMO, one thing that might improve dretch is to increase the strafe speed slightly so it can dodge better.

Yeah I kill most of my dretches when they strafe, well a fat portion of them.

Also a good and (more importantly) simple idea that might help balance out the Dretch. Not a big strafe-speed increase; just enough to make a Dretch on the ground slightly harder to track while circling humans within bite-range.

The drawing of the Dretch looks like an Ultralisk.

Holy crap, it does! I was kind of ashamed because I hacked those out in like 5 minutes using Paint and I just assumed that I would be ridiculed for the "child's refrigerator drawing of some alien in a video game that he likes" rendering of the Dretch...

So accidental Ultralisk is practically a compliment. 

[umca]

I think it could help make the Dretch harder to hit CONSISTENTLY (meaning with each individual shot contained within a burst) without the need to make it faster. This would also make the Dretch slightly harder to kill, technically speaking, without needing to increase it's HP count. On the other hand, if a noob-Dretch charges straight at a Human, it will still be easy to pump enough bullets into the Dretch to kill it before it can even take a bite.

I am no expert but I think whether a bullet hits or not does not depend on the animation of the model but on the the hitbox.

Compared to the dretch in 1.1 this alien now feels big and "clumsy". I guess that's why they had to enable Goon+ at s2.

=> Improve dretch (at least make them smaller) and you can put the goon+ back to s3, where it belongs.