Author Topic: [GPP] The Defense Computer  (Read 25547 times)

Cadynum

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[GPP] The Defense Computer
« on: January 23, 2011, 04:30:54 am »
It has already been said many times,  but I feel it has to be mentioned again:
The defense computer is currently next to useless.

Here is a nice list how to make it useful:

Remove healing range restriction and remove stacked healing
Stacking is never used. Healing of forward bases would be useful.

More intelligent threat reporting
Instead of "Base is under attack" which is next to useless as it could mean almost anything (reactor getting eaten vs. forward turret getting slashed). It should contain somewhat detailed info about what's happening. We have location info in each map, lets use it. The structure getting hit could also be included.
Example: "Turret under attack at 'Long hall'"
Preferably it should be in in the normal output as centerprints are annoying, this is just my personal opinion though.

Increase healing rate

Perhaps it would be too good if every suggested change is incorporated, although i doubt it. If anything the BPs required could be upped to 10.

swamp-cecil

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 04:43:03 am »
YES!
these are stupid suggestions, don't even waste our time.
I don't like your negative attitude.

jm82792

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 06:04:53 am »
Might be too much info..

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 08:25:16 am »
ATM multiple DCs can be worth the BP if you have a rep base & low player count. I use double DCs in niveus, and that is with just 5 reps. In many maps you can fit more, often 7-9 (even ATCS outside can fit RC and 7 reps...), thus more buildings.
I doubt healing range and threat changes will improve it enough for people to use them in most bases (since it will cover whole base and buildings will all be in 1 area). Healing rate and hp should be increased IMO. Reporting which building gets hit could be spammy if it reports it for every building.

Thoth

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 08:42:59 am »
F1, F1, and F1. Another idea would be to have it give back BP slightly faster.
guys...GUYS

SirDude

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 09:18:18 am »
+1

Meisseli

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 02:04:10 pm »
ATM multiple DCs can be worth the BP if you have a rep base & low player count. I use double DCs in niveus, and that is with just 5 reps. In many maps you can fit more, often 7-9 (even ATCS outside can fit RC and 7 reps...), thus more buildings.
I doubt healing range and threat changes will improve it enough for people to use them in most bases (since it will cover whole base and buildings will all be in 1 area). Healing rate and hp should be increased IMO. Reporting which building gets hit could be spammy if it reports it for every building.
I congratulate you on the day you build 7 repeaters in outside ATCS (an alien team that doesn't know how to spawn does not count). I also believe in the Niveus example you are wasting build points on DCs. I can build you a lot stronger base without any DCs and more turrets/teslas instead. Also you are highly exaggerating, 5 repeaters is basically the max you can fit in a (good) base.

I build one DC max, and only because of the Base Under Attack text. In some games you do need the warning text as a lot of times you find yourself fighting the aliens pretty much alone anyways. Warning text aside, there's no reason to build one ever. The repair rate is indeed too low to be of use. Repeater DCs are useless as they do not reach all of the main base structures because DC and Reactor both have a range of 1000. DC stacking? Next to useless as no builder will ever build more than two DCs. Even then with two DCs the base defences suffer way too much. Isn't the more powerful RC zap at least useful? Turrets placed to kill aliens on top of reactor cost the same and are much more useful as they shoot aliens everywhere else, too. It isn't also particularly hard to just shoot aliens on top of reactor.

How to improve it then?

Remove healing range restriction and remove stacked healing
Stacking is never used. Healing of forward bases would be useful.
Stacking isn't used or not useful at all - true. Removing healing range restriction I disagree about, forward bases are supposed to be vulnerable since they are such a powerful tool. However the current range of 1000 is very bad and makes DCs much less useful. The range could very well be raised to 1500-2000.

More intelligent threat reporting
Instead of "Base is under attack" which is next to useless as it could mean almost anything (reactor getting eaten vs. forward turret getting slashed). It should contain somewhat detailed info about what's happening. We have location info in each map, lets use it. The structure getting hit could also be included.
Example: "Turret under attack at 'Long hall'"
Preferably it should be in in the normal output as centerprints are annoying, this is just my personal opinion though.
I like the idea very, very much. However as Uniq said it could be spammy. But then again, currently the Base Under Attack text reports every ten seconds only, and I don't see why such a limit couldn't still be there, although with only 5 seconds or so.

Another idea would be to have it give back BP slightly faster.
The BP is being already returned at a considerably fast pace, especially if you compare it to the aliens. I don't think it needs to be any faster.

Increase healing rate

Perhaps it would be too good if every suggested change is incorporated, although i doubt it. If anything the BPs required could be upped to 10.
I understand that Norf didn't want to make heavy changes but still the +1 repair rate is hardly noticeable. Still needs 1-3 points more (preferably two to make DC heal 6 points a second) for it to go to the useful section, and it still wouldn't be in the overpowered section.

One possiblity I'd like to add into Cadynum's list is to consider raising the HP of DC since currently it is so easy to destroy, although of course I'd like to see more "active" changes.

Bottom line is that some changes need to be made still, and the proper way to do it is to experiment with it a lot more. It is indeed currently next to useless and more heavy changes like what Cadynum suggested should be made. If it is needed, the changes can be downsized to the preferred point. Or you can balance it out with removing the stacking or raising the BP cost to 10 as said, or by limiting the amount of buildings it can heal.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 02:19:40 pm by Meisseli »

DraZiLoX

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 04:48:31 pm »
More intelligent threat reporting
Instead of "Base is under attack" which is next to useless as it could mean almost anything (reactor getting eaten vs. forward turret getting slashed). It should contain somewhat detailed info about what's happening. We have location info in each map, lets use it. The structure getting hit could also be included.
Example: "Turret under attack at 'Long hall'"
Preferably it should be in in the normal output as centerprints are annoying, this is just my personal opinion though.
+1, I like all the ideas and definitely this one.

jm82792

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 09:58:18 pm »
Got an idea.
Make it optional for what level or critical importance of information you receive.
Like if you want to know if turrets are exploding, rc is dead, rc is being attacked,
rc is low health, you have one node left, you have no arm, your arm is heavily damaged, your arm is under attack,
no defenses, etc.
All selectable in 3 or 4 levels of information.
1 would be critical, 4 would likely overload anyone.

Sorry for the jumbling of the post, but you get the idea.

Conzul

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 12:03:35 am »
Dude.
Incessant Repair. Repairs constantly, completely removing the damage-to-heal threshold currently in place.

Teapot

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 07:48:21 pm »
Alternatively, a DC could heal one building at a time, and heal faster -- much like a ckit.

Kasofa

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 08:55:00 pm »
Just make sure that it can't spam. For example, if a marauder starts zapping the base, humans would be overwhelmed with "<structure> under attack at <base location>" strings, and it could potentially be annoying.

-K

janev

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 09:30:18 pm »
Does the extra information it gives have to be active? You could have some sort of passive HUD that shows health of buildings/attack structures/whatever. Sometime like this.


  :reactor::turret:  firing icon 
  :reactor::turret:  firing icon
  :reactor: :reactor: zapping icon
 :reactor::tesla: zapping icon

  :repeater::turret:   
  :repeater::turret:
Optional information about other structures health
 :reactor: :telenode:
 :reactor: :telenode:

etc...

On the icons you could have a health bar.
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UniqPhoeniX

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2011, 05:35:40 am »
Or something like... a minimap!

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2011, 11:32:43 pm »
how about letting the DC cut down turret "target acquisition" time, and tesla refire rate?  by like something of a third of current values.  that's the kind of thing i'd expect a defense computer do.  currently, it's more of a "maintenance hub" than a defense computer.

an example of what i mean would be this - using completely made up numbers as i havent looked into what the real values are

if turret "acquire target" time is 1 second, having a DC in range reduces it to .6 second

if tesla refire time is .5 of a second, having a DC in range would reduce it to .34 a second


how odd, my first post and i'm suggesting buffs for humans.
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jm82792

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 04:39:17 am »
I like the turret upgrade idea.
That or it could provide some information.

SirDude

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 05:39:57 am »
how about a "smart" healing system?

the more damage the base as a whole has the faster the heal rate but the less damage a single building has the slower its heal rate.


Anonymoose

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2011, 10:55:35 am »
how about a "smart" healing system?

the more damage the base as a whole has the faster the heal rate but the less damage a single building has the slower its heal rate.
NO. (I like funny pictures of birds aswell). =D
Sounds well over powered, sructures have to die sometime...
Can you imagine throwing a mara at a building, get it nice and smokey, coming back and its turbo-healed back to normal?

« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 03:17:24 am by Anonymoose »
Don't you mind to tell me what you nickname meens, cause in my vocabulary there is only anon and a moose ???

SirDude

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2011, 01:56:14 pm »
you obviously don't understand the concept.


the larger the base the slower the healing per one building, but the smaller the base gets the faster it heals per one building.


all that is needed to make it really balanced is the right math formula, this will take awhile.



Qrntz

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2011, 02:12:57 pm »
the right math formula
e = mc²
(no, seriously, what about calculating the healing rate relative to the building's 'mass' == faster healing for rets and slower for large buildables == balanced (?) :3)

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

OhaiReapd

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2011, 09:46:25 pm »
the right math formula
e = mc²
(no, seriously, what about calculating the healing rate relative to the building's 'mass' == faster healing for rets and slower for large buildables == balanced (?) :3)

No, absolutely not, SirDude. You really work on your IDEAS and THINK ABOUT THEM before POSTING. You are wasting people's time. What WOULD work, would be a system that focused on vital structures. Say, your RC is down to around 50% health, it will stop healing rets to boost the healing by 1.5. This is just off the top of my head, and I don't support this. The humans are OP as is. And I don't want them camping anymore than they do. However the notification system tweaks would work a hell of a lot better than what we have now.

Qrntz

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2011, 01:53:13 pm »
e = mc²
(no, seriously, what about calculating the healing rate relative to the building's 'mass' == faster healing for rets and slower for large buildables == balanced (?) :3)
No, absolutely not, SirDude.
Hey, what.

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

SirDude

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2011, 03:00:43 am »
No, absolutely not, SirDude. You really work on your IDEAS and THINK ABOUT THEM before POSTING. You are wasting people's time. What WOULD work, would be a system that focused on vital structures. Say, your RC is down to around 50% health, it will stop healing rets to boost the healing by 1.5. This is just off the top of my head, and I don't support this. The humans are OP as is. And I don't want them camping anymore than they do. However the notification system tweaks would work a hell of a lot better than what we have now.

a Large part of my post didn't get posted for some reason and  i didn't word my concept right anyway, oh well.

so here it is in math.

*base health = total building health % / # of buildings*

(Default-v-base)
building A: 100% (350)hp
building B: 100% (350)hp
building C: 100% (650)hp
building D: 100% (800)Hp
Base health: 100%
heal rate = 1
(Default-^-base)


building A: 75% (262)hp
building B: 100% (350)hp
building C: 100% (650)hp
building D: 100% (800)hp
Base Health: 93%
heal rate = 7


building A: 50% (157)hp
building B: 75% (262)hp
building C: 100% (650)hp
building D: 100% (800)hp
Base Health: 81%
heal rate: 19



building A: 75% (262)hp
building B: 90% (315)hp
building C: 80% (520)hp
building D: 69% (560)Hp
Base health: 78%
heal rate = 22


building A: 100% (350)hp
building B: 100% (350)hp
building C: 100% (650)hp
building D: 23% (184)Hp
Base health: 80%
heal rate = 20



building A: 100% (350)hp  :turret:
building B: 100% (350)hp  :turret:
building C: 100% (350)hp  :turret:
building D: 100% (350)hp  :turret:
building E: 100% (350)hp  :turret:
building F: 100% (250)hp  :medstat:
building G: 100% (650)hp  :armoury:
building H: 100% (500)hp  :telenode:
building I: 100% (500)hp   :telenode:
building J: 100% (1000)hp :reactor:
Base health: 100%
heal rate = 1


building A: 45% (157)hp  :turret:
building B: 80% (280)hp  :turret:
building C: 63% (220)hp  :turret:
building D: 89% (311)hp  :turret:
building E: 20% (70)hp    :turret:
building F: 37% (92)hp    :medstat:
building G: 55% (330)hp  :armoury:
building H: 75% (375)hp  :telenode:
building I: 59% (265)hp   :telenode:
building J: 79% (632)hp   :reactor:
Base health: 60%
heal rate = 40


The way buildings can be healed can be done in many different ways like:

    -Heals building that has lost the most Hp based on % one at a time.
    -Heals building that has lost the most Hp not based on % one at a time.
    -*Priority buildings first* then other buildings that have lost the most Hp not based on %.
    -Heal rate is divided between all buildings.
    -Heal all buildings at the same time at the same rate (remember the heal rate lowers as base health rises).
    -A very complex one that is not worth explaining
* = that has lost the most Hp not based on % one at a time.


*Note* Building health points are not accurate, give me some an i will make a accurate model.
**Note** Heal rate shrinks as Base Health rises
***note*** attacking lower Hp buildings makes Base % shrink faster then high Hp buildings.
****Note**** heal rate is how many points of health are healed(or to be distributed) in a repair, heal speed is undefined.

Care to correct yourself now?

Other then that i think it can be done and is a well balanced system.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 10:41:09 am by SirDude »

Anonymoose

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2011, 03:18:39 am »
tl;dr
Don't you mind to tell me what you nickname meens, cause in my vocabulary there is only anon and a moose ???

SirDude

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 03:42:03 am »

jm82792

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2011, 11:55:12 pm »
Simplicity can be the best way to acomplish things in most instances.

OhaiReapd

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2011, 01:52:09 am »
tl;dr

Don't worry he was just trying to sound smart.

Simplicity can be the best way to acomplish things in most instances.

This

Heli

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2011, 08:34:27 am »
If you are going to do any changes at this point to the DC, might I recommend you make them small changes?

I think the following would enhance the utility of the DC and not overpower it:

  • +1 Healing Rate for a total of 5
  • Increase DC Healing Range from 1000 to 1500 (or a range higher than 1000 but not more than 1500)
  • Enhanced "base under attack message" (building type under attack only) but ONLY for those buildings in the DC Healing Range.  That is, no warning message for forwards out of range.

I think the above would be worth a try.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 08:37:28 am by Heli »

Meisseli

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2011, 02:23:01 pm »
First of all, the DC range isn't only the healing range, it's the whole range under which it operates (healing, RC zap boost, Base Under Attack messages). Secondly I think the healing rate increase should be +2.
 
That being said, your list transforms in my perverted mind into:

  • +2 healing rate for a total of 6
  • Increase DC range from 1000 to 1500
  • Enhanced Base Under Attack message with a lower, 7000ms(?) attack period (how often it spams X at Y is under attack)

jm82792

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Re: [GPP] The Defense Computer
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2011, 02:19:00 am »
Hold a dev at gunpoint for a possible gameplay change to see what happens with DC change?
Just kidding but it would be sweet if they tried something with it.