Disable human dodge backwards?

[CreatureofHell]

Why should a heavy ass bsuit have more hops than a rant?

Because it's a high-tech self-powered exoskeletal battlesuit...

Take Crysis for example...

[OhaiReapd]

Why should a heavy ass bsuit have more hops than a rant?

Because it's a high-tech self-powered exoskeletal battlesuit...
[/quote]
I guess that makes sense.

[jm82792]

Ironman.... 

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up?  what about aliens?  we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.

anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk.  mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents.  rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it.  tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.

so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn.  if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.

[Tremulant]

so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up?  what about aliens?  we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.

So, marauders and goons are less agile than dretches and rant charge isn't particularly fast or a replacement for jump in many situations?

anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk.  mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents.  rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it.  tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.

so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn.  if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.

Well, you clearly speak from lots of recent experience... Frankly, you don't sound like you've got a bloody clue, just stop making noises for a while and play against some decent aliens, or, if you're truly the most amazingly skilled dodger, then go and make your stats reflect that fact.

[Meisseli]

so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up?  what about aliens?  we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.

Your logic is fallacious. Aliens do not lose mobility every time they evolve. Goons are the most agile creature in this game, second comes marauder. It's about the unique, individual classes, nothing to do with evolving or staging up.

anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk.  mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents.  rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it.  tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.

Fitting in vents has nothing to do with human dodge. Tyrants win humans in duels always if they aren't particularly retarded or the human jettarding somewhere high upon the sky.

so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn.  if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.

The poor logic in here makes this statement obsolete. Even worse than the earlier mobility thing is the argument by which "aliens have X, therefore humans should have X". That is repeated in countless topics where the poster actually has nothing to justify his words, therefore going by this. Aliens and humans are two unique teams - deal with it.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

so wait, we don't want to make dodge cost more stamina for heavier armors because it reuces mobility as you stage up?  what about aliens?  we lose mobility every time we evolve, andd mobility is supposed to be the focal point of the alien team.

Your logic is fallacious. Aliens do not lose mobility every time they evolve. Goons are the most agile creature in this game, second comes marauder. It's about the unique, individual classes, nothing to do with evolving or staging up.

anything bigger than a basi cannot wallwalk.  mara+ and bigger do not fit in most vents.  rant has a pitiful jump, and any human who's played for long enough to unerstand the game will bunnyhop backwards from a charging rant, and generally at least ALMOST kill it.  tis especially bad against lucis, as they do combo shots of a fully charged primary, and a secondary immeiatly after.

Fitting in vents has nothing to do with human dodge. Tyrants win humans in duels always if they aren't particularly retarded or the human jettarding somewhere high upon the sky.

so, I say again - increase stamina cost and/or decrease range of human dodges based on the armor worn.  if aliens sacrifice their trademarked agility and mobility to stage up, it is only fitting the humans do as well.

The poor logic in here makes this statement obsolete. Even worse than the earlier mobility thing is the argument by which "aliens have X, therefore humans should have X". That is repeated in countless topics where the poster actually has nothing to justify his words, therefore going by this. Aliens and humans are two unique teams - deal with it.

goons are most agile?  I disssagree.  neither are goons the most moble.  goons are perhaps the fastest, but that in no way makes them the top class in agility or mobility.  that's where the vents come in: mobility.  I note that human movement spees are related to the armor worn.  why should dodge not also follow this convention?  you claim there is fault in my logic, yet you misinterpreted my point.  it is not "humans have x, aliens need an analog."  my point was "this mechanic is unreal and unfun.  it causes the factions to behave in a way that is contrary to how they are described."

personally, I dislike how many movement/manuverability options are available to humans.  it would be akin to aing a true range attack to every alien class, or giving humans a poison analog.  humans have firepower, the do not need a dodge.  conversly, aliens need more manuvering options. 

unless, of course, I have the intentions of the racial descriptions wrong.  if the alien description needs to read "u r jus a trgt 4 1337 humarns", please change it to read so and stop confusing me.

[Meisseli]

goons are most agile?  I disssagree.  neither are goons the most moble.  goons are perhaps the fastest, but that in no way makes them the top class in agility or mobility.  that's where the vents come in: mobility. I note that human movement spees are related to the armor worn.  why should dodge not also follow this convention?

Battlesuits cannot fit in vents, isn't this by your logic making it already a lot less mobile? Human movement speed is not related to what armour you wear unlike you say.

personally, I dislike how many movement/manuverability options are available to humans.  it would be akin to aing a true range attack to every alien class, or giving humans a poison analog.  humans have firepower, the do not need a dodge.  conversly, aliens need more manuvering options.

Dodge is lightyears away from making humans akin to aliens. Just think of a marauder or a dragoon pouncing or jumping a whole map through ten seconds. A human will take a minute to do the same. The difference between mobility is huge.

unless, of course, I have the intentions of the racial descriptions wrong.  if the alien description needs to read "u r jus a trgt 4 1337 humarns", please change it to read so and stop confusing me.

I'm sorry, but dodge doesn't do this. You're truly exaggerating a little too much here.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

armor does not affect movement speed?  why not?  it really should, as well as modify jump and dodge distance and stamina cost.  as far as "taking a minute to cover the same distance" that is highly dependant on the map.  humans can cross atcs almost as fast as any alien, for example.  you don't have to be particularly skilled or an old hand to understand the descriptions don't match the actuality. I simply suggest the reality be brought back in line with the description, or vice-versa.

[Dracone]

I'm not even going to go into details about this idea of armor changing human mobility. Unless you want the game to get fucked over by a massive movement overhaul for humans, which would require serious changes to pretty much everything for the aliens to prevent severe OPness, shut the fuck up and leave it alone. You're looking to completely change some key fundamentals in Trem, as if many of them haven't already been ruined as it is.

[Meisseli]

armor does not affect movement speed?  why not?  it really should, as well as modify jump and dodge distance and stamina cost.  as far as "taking a minute to cover the same distance" that is highly dependant on the map.  humans can cross atcs almost as fast as any alien, for example.  you don't have to be particularly skilled or an old hand to understand the descriptions don't match the actuality. I simply suggest the reality be brought back in line with the description, or vice-versa.

Changing the game to be less about the awesome fast gameplay and intense reactions gets a negative vote from here. You're looking for other games for that. Playing Granny Tremulous isn't what would be fun, really.

Most maps in Tremulous are significantly larger (and better) than ATCS. It isn't to be used as a reference for all Tremulous maps.

So, as I found nothing in the team descriptions being false, could you back-up your claims by pointing actual things you found to be so?

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

dracone: the point is that dodge has done this already.  serious changes are needed to accomiate dodge.  also, as my suggestions and observations do nothing to change the game, your bit about shutting the fuck up and leaving it alone was both unessicary and unwelcome.  discussion hurts nothing, unless you perhaps fear for the modification of things you consider rote?

meissili:  i'd say it would encourage diversity.  just because you CAN armor up does not mean you should.  much like the descions you make when playing alien.  just because you can evolve does not mean it is always a good idea to do so.  human base speed can be adjusted so that armor slowdown isn't  "granny trem".  plenty of other team based Fps games include this mechanic and also manage to keep a very fast pace.  trem should be no different.

as for descriptions, my computer is out at the moment, so I don't have them right out in front of me.  I do remember two points of contention I had were claiming that aliens built bases faster, and had more mobility.  overall, I fell that build speeds are roughly equal, and aliens have an edge on mobility so long as both teams are restricted to s1.

 

[Meisseli]

Oh yes, as much as I would enjoy seeing naked lucis swarm the game, no thanks. There are very few games in that armor reduces movement speed, and those games aren't comparable with Tremulous.

You could seriously stop the exaggeration. Dodge has its flaws, but you're truly blind to imply it has changed the game so much that every alien is helpless against it. I, and everyone excluding you it seems manage to kill humans still just fine.

Ah, since we already know that mobility translates, as you said, to: "can fit vents", I guess your statement is true.

The Aliens' strenghts are in movement and the ability to quickly construct new bases quickly [sic]. They possess a range of abilities including basic melee attacks, movement-crippling poisons and more.

The humans are the masters of technology [sic]. Although their bases take long to construct, their automated defense ensure they stay built. A wide range of upgrades and weapons are available to the humans, each contributing to eradicate the alien threat.

Those are the descriptions. Aside from the grammatical mistakes, aliens are good in movement, and they possess abilities. The building part indeed has changed, it probably is slow since aliens need to build 1,5x build points worth more stuff.

[Dracone]

dracone: the point is that dodge has done this already.  serious changes are needed to accomiate dodge.  also, as my suggestions and observations do nothing to change the game, your bit about shutting the fuck up and leaving it alone was both unessicary and unwelcome.  discussion hurts nothing, unless you perhaps fear for the modification of things you consider rote?

No, you don't know how to play this game well enough (evident from your play and your opinions) and have contributed no valuable information to this whatsoever outside of "this would create variation."

Your logic is useless. You suggest a SEPARATE influence on mobility to balance dodge, to counter its status of being a feature that doesn't require skill to use yet it is nearly gamebreaking in multiple areas, and when abused enough in the right places (there are many of these), is theoretically completely gamebreaking.

Your suggestion doesn't work because dodge itself was put in place to buff the humans so they could avoid alien attacks more easily. I agree with this, despite the lack of skill it takes to use it, given that tyrant charge and goon pounce, both taking very little skill themselves, were buffed, but had neither of these been buffed I would call for dodge to be removed completely in a heartbeat. If dodge hadn't been implemented, these attacks would be hopelessly unavoidable. However, dodge is overpowered against basically every other alien or alien attack/ability, save for maybe zap and gas (lol who cares).

To suggest that we need yet another FEATURE in the game to nerf something else that was put in placed as a buff is simply illogical. You would be going down the same exact path as those that had been taken to form this version. Said routes are those that STILL pull in a lot of criticism from many players now. To put your logic into a simple analogy, rather than finding a better way to balance the scale, you just want to keep adding weights. This is perfectionist logic in its worst form, and only leads to an unending staircase of issues through making the game more complex than it needs to be.

[OhaiReapd]

dracone: the point is that dodge has done this already.  serious changes are needed to accomiate dodge.  also, as my suggestions and observations do nothing to change the game, your bit about shutting the fuck up and leaving it alone was both unessicary and unwelcome.  discussion hurts nothing, unless you perhaps fear for the modification of things you consider rote?

To suggest that we need yet another FEATURE in the game to nerf something else that was put in placed as a buff is simply illogical. You would be going down the same exact path as those that had been taken to form this version. Said routes are those that STILL pull in a lot of criticism from many players now. To put your logic into a simple analogy, rather than finding a better way to balance the scale, you just want to keep adding weights. This is perfectionist logic in its worst form, and only leads to an unending staircase of issues through making the game more complex than it needs to be.

Mega offtopic - This reminds me of the recent episode of Big Bang Theory, where Sheldon, "the genius," creates two new pieces to chess that balance each other out, but are completely redundant. At the end of the show, there are three people playing chess with a myriad of chess pieces and one guy is so confused, he says "Fuck this," flips the chess boards and leaves.

Not entirely off topic - That off topic thing up there ^^^^^ is what could happen to new and even old players. I would ADVISE AGAINST IT. Thanks.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

I think my points have been seriously missed.  I don't want to keep adding shit to balance dodge, I woul be more than satisfied with the subject of this topic- disabling back dodge.

mobility =/= fitting in vents, but fitting in vents is a component of mobility.  is this perhaps more clear?  I would assume that you guys were smart enough to understand the concept of mobility, but you know what they say about assumptions.

and a final bit about movement speeds- there are more than a few games that use the mechanic.  some are a goo deal like trem.  I don't know, would you count tribes2 as too dissimilar for comparison?  how about avp and avp2?  those seem close enough, and they both include "armor slowdown" to great effect.  both are fairly fast paced. 

[Dracone]

Poor comparison.

I don't think you will understand the severity of such changes until you understand what it really means to be good at dodging in this game. Despite the fact that you are not referring to dodging alien attacks as the only thing within your interest for things impacted, it is far and above the absolute most important part of human movement.

Now to be completely honest, I've thought about the whole dilemma of human dodging being pretty easy to abuse. To disable may be too extreme. If measures are taken to balance this sort of thing out, they must always be subtle. I would suggest that the human backward movement speed be reduced very slightly first.

[OhaiReapd]

Poor comparison.

I don't think you will understand the severity of such changes until you understand what it really means to be good at dodging in this game. Despite the fact that you are not referring to dodging alien attacks as the only thing within your interest for things impacted, it is far and above the absolute most important part of human movement.

Now to be completely honest, I've thought about the whole dilemma of human dodging being pretty easy to abuse. To disable may be too extreme. If measures are taken to balance this sort of thing out, they must always be subtle. I would suggest that the human backward movement speed be reduced very slightly first.

See the quotes below. You must have missed them.

Keep full dodge for naked humans.

-25% move distance for light armor.

-25% move distance for jetpack/battpack.

Either -75% move distance for battlesuits, or no dodge at all. Battlesuits can't even crouch.

I think this is a good point.  I'm not for disabling dodge at all - I think it is important in balance.  I just think backward dodge is sort of ridiculous and inbalance especially vs s1 aliens.  Even at s3 though, it is sort of ridiculous when you have a charging rant that can't hit a bsuit because it is bunny hopping backwards.  In 4 backwards hops, a bsuit with a good weapon can take out a charging rant.  Some options I've been thinking about:
1) Make dodge cost twice as much energy as it does now
2) Make dodge cost twice as much energy for backward leaps (2 backward hops max would at least be somewhat more reasonable)
3) Disable backward leaps

[Dracone]

I don't see how those would suggest that I missed anything at all. I was giving my input on what should change if human movement is going to undergo reform. If you're talking about the upper two lines of what I said, those were completely directed towards RAKninja.

I suppose I maybe could have clarified that "...dodging being pretty easy to abuse. To disable may be too extreme" was in reference to backwards dodging. But it doesn't matter. As I said, things should be done subtly. To do all the numbers kharnov suggested would likely create a mess; also, if you diminish battlesuit mobility in any considerable way (75% is well beyond this), I guarantee they start getting annihilated. Heli's approach is also too direct, though he's on an alright track.

The problem with the majority of these suggestions, and also reason for my own suggestion, is: How do you know that the dodge is the main issue, and that it's not the ability of the humans to run backwards at just about (slightly under) the same rate as most of the aliens, COMBINED with the dodge? i.e. Human dodges backwards and is able to continue at a pretty annoying rate running backwards.

There are a lot more other options. You could also suggest that, after dodging backwards, a human player should be slowed for just a little bit before being able to accelerate to regular speed, in a similar fashion to the granger spit or basi gas.

Of course, just altering anything directly related to BACKWARDS dodging gets shredded when you talk of the better players. I know for damn sure that if I couldn't dodge backwards, I'd rape pretty much just as easily using the sideways dodge. This was mentioned by Meisseli and is a valid point, regardless of all the less skilled players who cry, "But I wouldn't be able to do that!!"

Another consideration is having a longer delay between dodges. There are tons of possibilities, I could go on for a while.

[OhaiReapd]

Well, you could just increase goon speed! AFAIK, killing humans with anything other than dretch or goon is rather easy. IF you are skilled at that alien. A skilled goon, however (remember AFAIK), still has trouble taking out a human spamming backwards dodge.

[Meisseli]

As per before, if something were to be done, it is notably the best option to apply changes to dodge as a whole. The easiest and simplest way would be a slight distance decrease - yes, sideways too. Perhaps it would be in order. I'm not totally against dodge or think it is particularly too good against any of the alien classes though. Dretch is on the verge of it though, it suffers the most being both weak and the starting class. Tyrant seems to have enough of an easy time in killing everything with the current dodge too. Other classes have enough mobility to overcome dodge.

[Heli]

As per before, if something were to be done, it is notably the best option to apply changes to dodge as a whole. The easiest and simplest way would be a slight distance decrease - yes, sideways too. Perhaps it would be in order. I'm not totally against dodge or think it is particularly too good against any of the alien classes though. Dretch is on the verge of it though, it suffers the most being both weak and the starting class. Tyrant seems to have enough of an easy time in killing everything with the current dodge too. Other classes have enough mobility to overcome dodge.

The more I think about this, the more I agree it is unbalanced vs dretch but since most humans don't bind dodge, it isn't yet an issue.  In terms of whether dodge as a whole would cost more energy or be less distance, I'm actually in favor of a bit of both.  Perhaps a little less distance and a little more energy.  Another idea would be a cool down period after one dodge to prevent bunny hopping.

I'm curious to hear what Norf thinks.

[OhaiReapd]

The more I think about this, the more I agree it is unbalanced vs dretch but since most humans don't bind dodge, it isn't yet an issue.  In terms of whether dodge as a whole would cost more energy or be less distance, I'm actually in favor of a bit of both.  Perhaps a little less distance and a little more energy.  Another idea would be a cool down period after one dodge to prevent bunny hopping.

I'm curious to hear what Norf thinks.

What. Are. You. Talking. About....... Almost every human I go up against as a dretch, or any alien for that matter, uses backwards dodge and back peddles up to his little butt buddy the turret.

[Anonymoose]

Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.

[baybal]

Dodge back-jumb back-Dodge back-jumb back and you can ran away from a running drecth, completing the reload

[SirDude]

how about removing sprinting backwards and leaving dodge alone?

IMO Dodge is fine with everything but dretch, but i think that issue lies with the dretch more then with dodge.

I find myself using dodge less and less as it seems more and more people are getting more used to dodge and compensating for it, forgetting that dancing is still quite effective. But that is not to say i haven't reached a balanced between dodge and dancing, i feel that most of these "balances" people want are no more then fine tunes on balanced things instead of balancing the UNbalanced things.

[F50]

Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.

Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.

[jez]

Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.

Interesting. I was unaware you could do 90* turns with scripts.

Presumably this means you can currently do a forward dodge bind too?

[Spl@]

Interesting. I was unaware you could do 90* turns with scripts.

90*? 90°, surely…?

(Compose 'o' 'o', usually)

[OhaiReapd]

Ok, we can argue about this till the goons come home but for now i will gladly sign the petition to remove backwards dodge, i dont mind the sidewards disco slide dodging, but the backpedaling has got to go. The side dodge can always be used to gain some backward distance but it actually requires some thought and not just a simple button-bash.

Backwards dodge doesn't really matter, because I can make a bind (rather complicated I grant you, but it will work nonetheless), using the default GPP client to turn right 90*, dodge right, and then turn left 90*. Its the entire dodging system that is at fault here I think.

I want to see you do it.