Admit defeat votes

[Celestial_Rage]

In continuation from http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=13286.0 (one year ago), I think admit defeat votes need to have 80-90% yes to pass. Admit defeat ruins the fun for both teams, and often, seemingly hopeless situations can be turned around for a win. Plus, admit defeat votes are the third most called vote, so, happens quite often.

[jm82792]

Admit defeat should have a weight(lower percentage) added to it if there are no spawns, and ckits.

[Meisseli]

Some kids like to vote for it _every_ round, when the opponent has just gained the next stage. Others do it at the start of rounds to get nextmap the easier way. I, and many other admins have had to kick people who for example join a team and then call for admit defeat in the first second. It's also annoying when some do it in every map. Why does it need to be spammed so much, it should be used as a last resort. It's also very frustrating a few people can decide for the entire playing population that the map is over, and even more so when only half the players have teamvote binds bound (AFAIK it's still not bound to anything by default.)

In short, yes. Give it at least the same percentage as sudden death votes (or remove it altogether... but I guess not).

[David]

IMO for some votes (eg this and draw etc) people who don't vote should be assumed to vote no.

IMO it should be straight 50/50 once all nodes/eggs are gone though.

[Nux]

I think admit defeat votes need to have 80-90% yes to pass.

This is known as a supermajority, for your info.

IMO for some votes (eg this and draw etc) people who don't vote should be assumed to vote no.

This denies the ability to abstain which is arguably an important third option. Yet in the absence of a "None of the above" vote it's hard to tell whether people are merely neglecting to vote, in which case you're effectively arguing for a double majority with the second criterion being that there is a representative quorum in favour of the action.

I can't help but feel all of this is sidestepping the real issue. Absolute democracy isn't absolutely perfect (the referendum we recently had in the UK confirms that for me personally). I suggest all votes become merely consultative when an admin is present (possibly implementing a vote purely for admins when multiple admins are present). That way it's up to the admin to deal with the situation fairly, and if he fails then the players can protest by not playing there. This is pretty much the system we have already but a bit more formal so you don't get overzealous admins taking action without warning. Also this would mean no more cancel/pass votes which is pretty abrupt and intrusive, which will easily just end up annoying people. In any case, you could always have higher 'superadmins' who can act like they currently do and overrule everything, if necessary.

Otherwise just do the third "None of the above" option with a double majority criterion.

[CreatureofHell]

IMO for some votes (eg this and draw etc) people who don't vote should be assumed to vote no.

F2
Sometimes I see a vote and I don't care about the outcome so I don't vote. Making me vote no would be completely unfair.

[jm82792]

Have it not be a super-majority when one team has no spawns and builders, but when there is a chance for winning make it democratic.

[F50]

Draw votes should always require some sort of supermajority (60-80%?), since I regularly see draw votes happening right after a team has lost and it is only a matter of time, or draw votes in the last 2 minutes before TL. I have seen quite a few admins do this as well, which I find odd. It seems that people believe winning by vote is just as valid as winning by conquest 

I definitely agree that admit defeat votes could use a vote percentage. I can see admit defeat votes being more valid when there are no eggs/nodes, but that would require more work, for very little benefit.

[jm82792]

Draw votes should always require some sort of supermajority (60-80%?), since I regularly see draw votes happening right after a team has lost and it is only a matter of time, or draw votes in the last 2 minutes before TL. I have seen quite a few admins do this as well, which I find odd. It seems that people believe winning by vote is just as valid as winning by conquest 

I definitely agree that admit defeat votes could use a vote percentage. I can see admit defeat votes being more valid when there are no eggs/nodes, but that would require more work, for very little benefit.

I think it would require a line of code to accomplish the more validity without eggs or nodes.

[Tremulant]

It's somewhat rare but entirely possible for a team to win with no eggs or builders, bored specs being able to end the game prematurely isn't much fun.

[Spl@]

It's somewhat rare but entirely possible for a team to win with no eggs or builders, bored specs being able to end the game prematurely isn't much fun.

Agreed… perhaps non-admin spectators shouldn't be able to vote for/against a draw?

Personally, I dislike the calling of…

• change-map or draw votes just to change map when the current map was voted for;
  
• repeated (successful) votes just to change map; and
  
• repeated votes because the caller didn't get the desired result.
  

Probably others too, but I can't think of them right now

[kharnov]

Spectators should not be allowed to vote on anything, period.

You want to deny someone from building? You want to kick a player? You want the map changed? Why are you doing this without even actively participating in the damn game?

[Tremulant]

Personally, I dislike the calling of…

• change-map or draw votes just to change map when the current map was voted for;

Don't care, people make bad choices when it comes to maps, especially when they don't remember quite what the map's like, they may change their minds when the nature of the voted map becomes apparent, at which point a vote's going to fail if enough players haven't changed their minds.

• repeated votes because the caller didn't get the desired result.
  

This gets you a mute, simple.

[F50]

Personally, I dislike the calling of…

• change-map or draw votes just to change map when the current map was voted for;

Don't care, people make bad choices when it comes to maps, especially when they don't remember quite what the map's like, they may change their minds when the nature of the voted map becomes apparent, at which point a vote's going to fail if enough players haven't changed their minds.

• repeated votes because the caller didn't get the desired result.
  

This gets you a mute, simple.

I agree with tremulant.

As far as spectators voting goes, I'd prefer if spectators were unable to vote on draw votes, but it makes a lot of sense for spectators to vote on kick and mute votes, since they are more likely to have been paying attention to that sort of thing, you know, by spectating. Spectators are already incapable of voting on denybuild votes, as those are inherently teamvotes.

[Norfenstein]

Spectators should not be allowed to vote on anything, period.
...
You want the map changed? Why are you doing this without even actively participating in the damn game?

Because I don't like the current map?

[Plague Bringer]

How about an automatic admit defeat vote when a certain criteria is met? Say, no spawns for x seconds, or a situation where there can be no builders? Of course, that would have to be refined to make it reasonable, but it would prevent admit defeat abuse that lets half a team decide if they're going to skip the map three minutes into a game. If null votes are the majority or tie breaker, there should be a dialogue box that pops up (or at least prints to console) informing players that they should vote.

[rotacak]

Admit defeat causing only problems and almost no game can be finished properly. Should be removed completely.

[vcxzet]

lol AFAIK
admit defeat added before the balance changes because games were taking too long.
dunno how does it fit now

[rotacak]

lol AFAIK
admit defeat added before the balance changes because games were taking too long.
dunno how does it fit now

Too long? What about timelimit?

Now it fits in this way: every noob on server calling draw, map, restart, admit defeat vote again and again. And when one team losing, then they voting even more. I removed admit defeat on my 1.1 server and with lakitu gold feature "no map vote and restart vote after 5 minutes of gameplay" it is perfect.