half-life 1 engine!

[DIGI_Byte]

the q3 engine is fine. but for the next version or trem 2 we should make it a stand alone version of halflife 1, you can do the same stuff as in the q3 engine and there are some better and newer functions and the maps that are used in trem will work in half life

[kozak6]

Ok.

[krakensden]

the q3 engine is fine.

Yes. Except for the HUD scripting and net code. But it's open source, and there's a fair amount of documentation, and this can be fixed.

 but for the next version or trem 2 we should make it a stand alone version of halflife 1

Why? The Half-Life 1 engine is really just Quake 1 merged with bits of Quake II and some proprietary code. And it isn't open source, so problems can't be fixed, and the last time I checked, Valve is pushing an entirely different engine- Source.

you can do the same stuff as in the q3 engine and there are some better and newer functions

No you can't. The Quake III engine is far less limited in terms of what it can display than the Quake I/Quakeworld engine, proper curves and a shader system are non-trivial features and non-existent in the Half-life engine. I've heard Half-life has a nice animation system, but I can guarantee converting the models would be a pain. The physics in the Half-life/Quake engine are also not as good as the physics in Quake III, and that's just one more thing to fix.

Also, I need to stress the Open Source bit here. You know how we have all these Linux players in the forum? Well they can play because Tremulous is open source, and can be ported to any platform by anyone who wants to. I understand we also have a growing number of Mac users here. This is a far better situation than the one we'd find ourselves in with the Half-life engine, which supports one thing: Windows.

maps that are used in trem will work in half life

I really, really, don't think so.

In summary:
Anti-lag code can be written, the HUD scripting can be fixed. Those are, really, the only technical advantages to Half-life I. But switching would be an ENORMOUS PAIN that would cost almost half of the Tremulous userbase for no long-term benefits.

Or maybe I'm just feeding the trolls?

[Caveman]

Nice idea.

You go ahead and make the new project on your own and guess what?
That'll give you a brand new forum to spam, just on your own.

On the other hand... why don't you get a clue. Oh wait, to get one you actually have to get a life!

[[db@]Megabite]

Oh yeah... not to mention that the Half-Life 1 Engine is 2 years older than Q3A, which was a technological wonder at its time with its shader system, curved surfaces and stuff.
HL1 is just an optimized Quake1 Engine with codebits from Quake2 and some stuff they brew themselves in 1998. Apart from being non free, which disables the possibility to make a standalone game, why take a technological step backwards?

Ah yes, I see, because this is just another pointless post by DIGI_byte.

Danny

[kozak6]

This might have been a more interesting discussion if he had suggested switching to DarkPlaces.

[Caveman]

This thread would have been worth reading if a coder made an educated proposal..
But just because some wannabe maper thinks up something...

/me wishes feverously for a forum-addon to filter posts by user

[SLAVE|Mietz]

This thread would have been worth reading if a coder made an educated proposal..
But just because some wannabe maper thinks up something...

/me wishes feverously for a forum-addon to filter posts by user

accs that and wishes a "ignore user" button

[Odin]

This might have been a more interesting discussion if he had suggested switching to DarkPlaces.

The Darkplaces netcode is terrible.

[Timbo]

What the fuck?

[Dustin]

What the fuck?

AMEN!
(Anyway, the engine is fine as it is. *gets out the cluebat* Nobody say otherwise!)

[Teiman]

the q3 engine is fine. but for the next version or trem 2 we should make it a stand alone version of halflife 1, you can do the same stuff as in the q3 engine and there are some better and newer functions and the maps that are used in trem will work in half life

Quake3 is the better engine nowdays.

Half-Life1? its that a joke? Half-Life 1 is like Quake1.  The problem with the Quake1 engine rendering is that was designed  FOR SOFTWARE RENDERING ON A 486!.  This mean Half-Life1 is unoptimized for hardware rendering on pentium.

Quake3 whas a redo, with hardware rendering. Its the most perfect you can get from rendering optimization and design.

Its Doom3 better?
Not!.
Doom3 and these engines are designed with tradeoffs for shadow volumes, and other lighting stuff.  These lighting stuff is good for singleplayer games, but I a gimmick on multiplayer games, and make the engine lotsa slow. So only a limited num of users is posible ( 4 players on the original Doom3 game!!)

Conclusion:
Quake3 is the better engine tecnically, AND IS FREE!!.


About Half-Life1:
Its not free, and you can't distribute it. To make standalone games you need distributions rights over the engine, and Valve will not able that.

Lets wait 7 years. Maybe Id will release a new engine Doom3 based (maybe not). The hardware will get better, and will be posible to render shadows withouth much overead. THEN a doom3 engine will be better for a tremulous alike standalone engine.

Half-Life2 can also make for a good engine for a Tremulous mod, but will be lest powerfull at rendering. This mean simpler maps, so less hidden areas for aliens. Anyway Its not a candidate for standalone becasue is not free and never will be ( But the source its out here, leaked, and you can read it: Its Quake1 based )

Theres another element interesting here:
dpmaster, originally designed for DarkPlaces (I guest..DP =darkplaces), theres TONS of free games that use that feature, and is reallly needed for multiplayer games to work nowdays. DPMASTER is free, modable and very flexible. Valve can shutdown WON, but no one can shutdown DPMASTER.

[Stof]

Its Doom3 better?
Not!.
Doom3 and these engines are designed with tradeoffs for shadow volumes, and other lighting stuff.  These lighting stuff is good for singleplayer games, but I a gimmick on multiplayer games, and make the engine lotsa slow. So only a limited num of users is posible ( 4 players on the original Doom3 game!!)

Tell that to the Splash Damage guys. It seems they are doing something impossible with "Enemy Territory : Quake Wars"

Conclusion:
Quake3 is the better engine tecnically, AND IS FREE!!.

No, Quake 3 is open source that I agree. Quake 3 engine isn't better than the Doom 3 engine variant. It isn't worse but you have to admit there are quite a few things very badly done in the Quake 3 engine. Map lighting is poor and model lighting is incredibly bad. Dynamic shadows are buggy and unfinished etc ...

[Slajer]

The next version of tremulous should be on wolfenstein(1) engine!
It's the most advanced engine ever!


This guy sure spams a lot..i bet he refreshes the forum every 5min

[SLAVE|Mietz]

the best would be the PONG engine, it will run even on your calculator...

[Caveman]

No, Quake 3 is open source that I agree. Quake 3 engine isn't better than the Doom 3 engine variant. It isn't worse but you have to admit there are quite a few things very badly done in the Quake 3 engine. Map lighting is poor and model lighting is incredibly bad. Dynamic shadows are buggy and unfinished etc ...

Like I said in another thread. who cares about lighing and such crap in a multiplayer game where no one likes dark corners. So your point is not as valid as it would be for single-play

[David]

This thread would have been worth reading if a coder made an educated proposal..
But just because some wannabe maper thinks up something...

/me wishes feverously for a forum-addon to filter posts by user

accs that and wishes a "ignore user" button

there are grease monkey scripts to do this...

and who give a toss about graphics?
flashy shit gets in the way.
so long as i can see who is where and doing what, i couldnt goive a fuck about graphics.

[next_ghost]

the best would be the PONG engine, it will run even on your calculator...

We should use Inform! We could then play even on a typewriter

Code: [Select]

You are in the human base. The reactor is humming silently. You see Armoury, Medistation, Teammates and Marauder.
> examine marauder
It seems to be advanced form of Marauder. You guess from the blue glowing stripes on its legs.
Marauder attacks Reactor.
The reactor is humming silently and begins to smoke.
> shoot marauder
You cannot shoot with Construction kit.
Marauder attacks Reactor.
The reactor stops humming. It will soon blow up! All buildings are now without power.
>

[Caveman]

roflol, that would truely be a MMPORG then

... but we should play by snail mail as I for on have no desire to fiddle with my old typewriter to get it to see my lan *G*

[Stof]

Like I said in another thread. who cares about lighing and such crap in a multiplayer game where no one likes dark corners. So your point is not as valid as it would be for single-play

Yes it is, there is much more to lighting effects than the Doom 3 dark shadows. This is a needed improvement for better quality graphics. Don't you believe that shadowmaps are a great idea ? Don't you believe that dynamic lighting makes for a better experience ? That textures sure are a good thing to have ? Would you play a FPS without textures nowadays ?

Also, the lighting on models is terrible, bland and incredibly ugly. There is no reason to keep it like that, except a lack of manpower to code it of course

[Caveman]

Don't you believe that shadowmaps are a great idea ?
Don't you believe that dynamic lighting makes for a better experience ?
That textures sure are a good thing to have ?
Would you play a FPS without textures nowadays ?

Also, the lighting on models is terrible, bland and incredibly ugly. There is no reason to keep it like that, except a lack of manpower to code it of course

- no
- only in single-player as i allready said
- yes, so what's that to do with lighting and shadows? (if it has something to do with it, please explain, as i am only a player)
- depends on the game itself an I believe Tremulous to be such a game that I'd play even w/o textures

- Like I said, I'd rather have good gameplay than a lot of eyecandy

[Stof]

Don't you believe that shadowmaps are a great idea ?
- no
So, you prefer the ugly vertex map ? Gouraud shading forever ! Hey, you do know that Descent 1 used such *advanced* shading technology already ? I bet Tremulous could be built to use the Descent engine. After all, dretch wallwalking is nearly as confusing as playing Descent

Don't you believe that dynamic lighting makes for a better experience ?
- only in single-player as i allready said
Why ? Dynamic lighting can even be a gameplay useful effect : UT2004 CTF adds a strong colored dynamic light to the flag carrier so that he really cannot hide anyway. Don't you thing that's a great idea ? Anyway, cf the next answer.

That textures sure are a good thing to have ?
- yes, so what's that to do with lighting and shadows? (if it has something to do with it, please explain, as i am only a player)

Because the arguments you use to say that we don't need a better lighting model in the game can be applyied to nearly all the technologies used in 3D engines nowadays. Let's play Tremulous in a monochrome monitor with only wireframe graphics. After all, it's the gameplay that counts.

Would you play a FPS without textures nowadays ?
- depends on the game itself an I believe Tremulous to be such a game that I'd play even w/o textures

Also, the lighting on models is terrible, bland and incredibly ugly. There is no reason to keep it like that, except a lack of manpower to code it of course
- Like I said, I'd rather have good gameplay than a lot of eyecandy
See ? Cf the top answer


Based on your reactions to any kind of tech improvement, I say you should play BZFlag instead of Tremulous : pure gameplay and only the graphics needed to make it work. But not the version 2 since those heretics have decided it was time to add some eye candy like textures and dynamic lights.

Edit : crappy BBS that can't even handle such simple thing as an tag inside an tag

[Caveman]

Let's melt this all together

You tell me to play another game because I don't like the eycandy?

[Stof]

Let's melt this all together

You tell me to play another game because I don't like the eycandy?

Didn't you say you'd play tremulous without textures ?

Btw, I think you can do that with a "r_picmip 60". It should reduce all textures to a 1 pixel texture

[phaedrus]

the q3 engine is fine. but for the next version or trem 2 we should make it a stand alone version of halflife 1, you can do the same stuff as in the q3 engine and there are some better and newer functions and the maps that are used in trem will work in half life

Funny you should mention that DIGI.  We really should be planning on porting to this engine, not HL1.  That is where it's at.

Jeff

[krakensden]

We really should be planning on porting to this engine, not HL1. That is where it's at.

Yeah, but check out the hardware requirements:

This is realtime speed for a virtual intel CPU with about 36 GHz (to be more precise: a cluster with 20 AMD XP1800 was used)

:-P. Why stop there? Why don't we move straight to povray?

[Lava Croft]

We should also change the name to Tremulous Selection.

[AssciateLinuxProgr-[SOUP]]

Well I had many thougth on h1 engine becased gravity gun is so greate.  Also maybay use african womans for new femaled marine modles?  So many ideas.

One think I make for idea is to have bumped mapper effects all over wals.  That way we make alien boogers on walls for extra atmosphericy.  It can be done cause i programmars it in old quake engine game I make long time ago (SPACE FIGHTER 2 go check out sometimes)

Oh anothar think I make for big open levesls with lots of clouds.  Alians hide in clouds than come downs in rain?  Like thar space ships is made from clouds on home planet (like big smelly cloud?).  I dunno just ideas ok.

EDITS FOR SPALLING ERRARS

[vcxzet]

the q3 engine is fine. but for the next version or trem 2 we should make it a stand alone version of halflife 1, you can do the same stuff as in the q3 engine and there are some better and newer functions and the maps that are used in trem will work in half life

half life 1 code is not open source. so you cant distribute it stand alone.
and q3 engine is superior to it. There are on going projects to make q3 engine up to date

[phaedrus]

We really should be planning on porting to this engine, not HL1. That is where it's at.

Yeah, but check out the hardware requirements:

This is realtime speed for a virtual intel CPU with about 36 GHz (to be more precise: a cluster with 20 AMD XP1800 was used)

:-P. Why stop there? Why don't we move straight to povray?

Dude.  I was totally kidding (I don't know if DIGI was, but I'm treating his suggestion that way[1]).  Intel can't even break 4GHz, let alone make a processor nearly 10 times that fast.  

Anyway, the other set of hardware requirements were a 1GHz processor (I would assume the meant PIII or Athlon) and a hardware raytracer about 3 times as fast as their working prototype.  Mind you, this prototype of theirs is a 66MHz design on an FPGA.  Run that through either ATi or NVidia's hardware engineering departments, and you've got a chip easily 3 times as fast (you could probably get one 3 times as fast by simply taping out that design and fabbing it on a 90nm process).

This is what games are going to look like in 3 years.  

Jeff

[1] If he was kidding, he did manage to succeed in causing the devs to narf, see Timbo's post above.