Firing weapons under water

[Taiyo.uk]

Does anyone think that changing weapon behaviour and/or effects when firing under water would be a good idea?

Changes such as diferent sound, projectiles leave bubble trails, etc...

[kozak6]

Yeah, only pulse has the water so far.

Why go through all of that trouble for one map?

[FX-Arch]

Yeah, only pulse has the water so far.

Why go through all of that trouble for one map?

But if u make the sounds u can use it for other maps as well  :wink:

[Juno]

its a bit silly that on pulse you can sit under water for aslong as you want


and fire a rifle

and the ELECTRIC painsaw doesnt shock you

and the flamethrower works





yea im being pedantic

[Ksempac]

Water gives a serious advantage to humans because slow aliens = dead aliens and people in water are perfect target for jetpackers above. So there will never be (unless some crazy mapper appears on Trem) a map with a lot of water. Modifying all the sounds just for a tiny portion of some maps is not worth it.

Moreover i wonder if there is any water at all. I mean i m not sure the game know what is water, that this blue texture is a special environnement.

[Basilisco]

its a bit silly that on pulse you can sit under water for aslong as you want

You can't

[Taiyo.uk]

Water gives a serious advantage to humans because slow aliens = dead aliens and people in water are perfect target for jetpackers above. So there will never be (unless some crazy mapper appears on Trem) a map with a lot of water. Modifying all the sounds just for a tiny portion of some maps is not worth it.

Moreover i wonder if there is any water at all. I mean i m not sure the game know what is water, that this blue texture is a special environnement.

Yeah, you've got a point. Although in pulse the surface texture hides submerged aliens quite well.

Perhaps the sounds don't need to be modified, but an audio effect could be added (to the engine?) that is activated when you become submerged. Then all sounds will sound more... ummm... underwater-like.

The slow alien & unchanged human weapon situation was half my reason for posting - this could be balanced if some weapons don't work or become nerfed when under water.

[Rippy]

Well, if they're going for semi-realism, all weapons should do 1/2 damage to a target in the water. Then the painsaw would do maybe 1/8 self-damage (too complicated making it zap everything around it), and the flamethrower wouldn't work at all.

[David]

weapons should act differntly underwater.
dont bother with new souds, just have some not work and others have less rage / damage

also, some aliens should be better swimmers than others, and can thay build under water?

[Lava Croft]

Swimming, like flying, is overrated. It's not needed at all. And I don't say this because I live below sealevel, pfft.

[kozak6]

Anyone familiar with Mythbusters?

Bullet weapons would be largely ineffective under water except at EXTREMELY close range.

[Odin]

Swimming, like flying, is overrated. It's not needed at all. And I don't say this because I live below sealevel, pfft.

Your trolling is overrated.

[Lava Croft]

pfft. Your trolling is overrated.

This has nothing to do with trolling. Please tell me what the added value of swimming is in Tremulous. That is, besides making Aliens sitting sitting ducks.

[Thorn]

as far as im concerned water has one use , Eye candy.

[tomek-k]

Water in tremulous :eek: ? Where??? Which map? I haven't noticed it...   I want to see it !
And I think it would be good idea to fill some other maps with water and of course change the weapons' behaviour under it.
Adding a new environment to a tactical game extends its playability.

Swimming, like flying, is overrated. It's not needed at all.

Flying is very useful

[krom]

I think rifle shotgun and chaingun should still be efficient, but all energy weapons should be disabled (las, massdriver, pulserifle).
"Combustible" type weapon should be disabled too (flamer)

Painsaw: could be still effective, but with selfdamage to the user since it's electric.

Luci: could simply blow into the marine's hands and if the marine survives the explosion, remain a useless weapon with no ammo left.

[Paradox]

I love not packing a snorkel!

[PIE]

Water in tremulous :eek: ? Where??? Which map? I haven't noticed it...   I want to see it !

The map everyone is talking about:
http://www.tremulous.info/index.php?module=download&action=show&id=4
Has water...

And without water.. you can't have a poolparty!
I wish someone would hurry up and make an all water map.... or any kind of map..
Slow the humans moving speed in water down a little.. nerf gun damage.. this will make up for lack of alien maneuverability and wallcrawling.... also maybe only humans without helmet and Bsuit and more advanced aliens should be able to drown.

[Paradox]

In FUSION, the reactors will be completely under water. It is a room about 512x512 in size, so you will have plenty of room.

[rasz_pl]

its a bit silly that on pulse you can sit under water for aslong as you want

You can't

you CAN
standing on the floor below water level = safe
swimming between the floor and water surface  = snorkel thingie.
yes, its a bug.

[Paradox]

On SST, i stood on the ground, and bleah, dead.

[Undeference]

Weapons that rely on internal explosions will get wet and not function at all (or, they may fire 1 shot, then stop working). That means the rifle and chaingun don't work. The energy weapons will probably work because the humans are probably smart enough to insulate the connections. But they might not work properly. (Looks like the lasgun shoots energy pellets. They might shock the person firing instead of going anywhere.)

The blaster looks a bit like one of those lighters that are supposed to look like guns. Lighting a flame under water doesn't work too well, so the blaster doesn't work either. Likewise, if you go under water with a jetpack, it might get filled with water and stop working. (Might even weigh you down.)

Presumably the battlesuit is not air tight. Humans with battlesuits who go in the water are stupid. The larger surface area of the battlesuit and the fact that it is quickly filling with water should prevent a human wearing one from moving at all, much less breathing.

In what kind of a universe does light travel only slightly faster than a sprinting human? Maybe the pulse rifle actually fires faster under water. Who knows?

The lucifer cannon probably immediately irradiates the entire pool of water, making it unsafe. Firing one into water would be an interesting way to prevent aliens from using it, but actually being in the water when firing would be rather dangerous.

Spikes, granger spit, and grenades, work under water, but they travel at a much slower rate and don't go as far. If you drop a grenade in the water, you have to be a really fast swimmer. (Though it is possible the grenade won't work at all.)

[kevlarman]

In what kind of a universe does light travel only slightly faster than a sprinting human? Maybe the pulse rifle actually fires faster under water. Who knows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light#Light-slowing_experiments

[kozak6]

It might be possible for the rifle to fire underwater.

The case mouths and primers can be sealed with lacquer, and the gunpowder should contain its own oxidizers.

The chaingun might short out or something, though.

Of course, bullets slow down quickly underwater.  On Mythbusters, they showed a bullet's effective range underwater is generally less than 3 feet.

Although, I suppose allowances could be made for gameplay.  The point of Tremulous isn't really realism.

I remember Tribes/Tribes 2, and how it was possible to skip discs off the water.  I know they also had different weapon behavior underwater, but I don't remember how it worked there.

[PIE]

@Undeference
Its the future..  they've figured out how to make everything work the way it does through technology..

They have developed a special bullet that works fine in water, and while the guns look like regular rifles and explosion based guns, they are really futuristic all purpose guns that are not affected by water at all... you can't even begin to guess what should happen!

(Skipping discs was like skipping stones. You had to get the disc at a reasonable angle and it would pop off of the top of the water and hit who knows what.. Conveniant for tanks actually. Mostly how tribes delt with the water was to just slow everything down. Bullets went slower, mortars / grenades didn't go that far, but rockets still did decent if i'm not mistaken. I remember sitting just under the surface and taking out planes anyway. Heavy armor was painfully slow in the water!... btw.. i'd like to see some ultra renegades type stuff for tremulous .. MUAHAHAHAHA)

[Sniper]

Just use a knife  :eek:

[Taiyo.uk]

Weapons that rely on internal explosions will get wet and not function at all (or, they may fire 1 shot, then stop working). That means the rifle and chaingun don't work.

orly? Cased ammunition weapons will fire under water because all of the explosive is in a sealed volume so cannot be waterlogged. However the projectiles won't be as effective after displacing a barrel full of water and travelling through even more water to reach the target.

The energy weapons will probably work because the humans are probably smart enough to insulate the connections. But they might not work properly. (Looks like the lasgun shoots energy pellets. They might shock the person firing instead of going anywhere.)

I think it's safe to assume that projectiles from energy weapons are very hot. That means they could travel underwater on a "steam bearing" - have you ever quenched a red-hot metal object in cold water? Notice how the water does not boil as it would in a kettle - this is because although the water explodes into steam on contace with the hot object, it immediatly condenses back into a liquid when it touches the surrounding cold water. The net effect is that a thin layer of (relatively insulating) steam is produced in the immediate vicinity of the surface of the object. This is why the object continues to glow red for some time after being immersed, and could be a mechanism by which energy projectiles can travel short distances underwater.

The blaster looks a bit like one of those lighters that are supposed to look like guns. Lighting a flame under water doesn't work too well, so the blaster doesn't work either.

Yeah, the blaster doesn't look like something you can fire underwater. Perhaps it just does 1% damage to the person firing instead of shooting anything or something.

Likewise, if you go under water with a jetpack, it might get filled with water and stop working. (Might even weigh you down.)

The jetpack should become inoperable while submerged.

Presumably the battlesuit is not air tight. Humans with battlesuits who go in the water are stupid. The larger surface area of the battlesuit and the fact that it is quickly filling with water should prevent a human wearing one from moving at all, much less breathing.

The fact that the BS makes humans immune to adv. basi gas implies that it's gastight, for short periods at least. Perhaps they could just extend the time a human can stay underwater by a small ammount. They'd slow a human down too, they could be made to have an overall density close to that of water so swimming is possible. Perhaps if deep water becomes a common feature then possibly make a new aqualung buyable.

In what kind of a universe does light travel only slightly faster than a sprinting human? Maybe the pulse rifle actually fires faster under water. Who knows?

It's not necessariy a light gun, just a "pulse"-rifle.

The lucifer cannon probably immediately irradiates the entire pool of water, making it unsafe. Firing one into water would be an interesting way to prevent aliens from using it, but actually being in the water when firing would be rather dangerous.

Possible short travel on steam bearings again, but probably explodes dangerously close so that the human has to be swimming backwards when they fire it to avoid taking damage.

Spikes, granger spit, and grenades, work under water, but they travel at a much slower rate and don't go as far. If you drop a grenade in the water, you have to be a really fast swimmer. (Though it is possible the grenade won't work at all.)

Underwater explosions are often relatively small due to water pressure, but can produce a massive shockwave as water is not easily compressed. Granger spit is oil based? Else it would dilute, and is it oil based and more dense than water? Else it'd float.

[Undeference]

Just use a knife

Oh hell yeah! Let's make this game more like Pathways Into Darkness :-) (Though, shortly after Pathways, Bungie went on to make an FPS series with a real 3D engine, physics, and pretty sophisticated sound support [for the time], that in many ways combats FPSes today. But that's beside the point.)

Cased ammunition weapons will fire under water because all of the explosive is in a sealed volume so cannot be waterlogged.

True. I was thinking more of the older guns that you'd have to dry out before refiring. Welcome to the 21st century, Undeference :oops:

I may be wrong about the blaster. It seems that a blaster is a different type of raygun from the pulse rifle. Typically, the shots from these weapons are much slower than the speed of light, and not much is actually known about them. How, and if, they function under water is only guess work until our weaponry progresses as far as that of the marines in Tremulous.
Alternatively, these weapons are extremely simplistic, but are not practical in this universe.

I think it's safe to assume that projectiles from energy weapons are very hot. That means they could travel underwater on a "steam bearing"

After reading the Wikipedia article about particle beam weapons (which supports the lasgun being a hitscan weapon), it seems like the only problem that could prevent the lasgun from working under water is beam generation. Particle beam weapons rely on hydrogen gas, which if I recall correctly from my chemistry classes, is not found in water (hydronium not being a gas and all). This leads me to the conclusion that without extra equipment, the lasgun cannot be effectively used inside water (assuming it is just water).
However, in the case that a lasgun would even function under water, I think you would be right.

The fact that the BS makes humans immune to adv. basi gas implies that it's gastight

The basilisk's gas is only effective in a high concentration but is approximately as dense as air, giving it a relatively small effective range. I think that if the marines put dust masks over their faces (of if it's a contact thing, wore more clothes), that might render the basilisk's gas virtually (if not entirely) useless.
I don't think that's a good indicator of whether a battlesuit is airtight. It just means that the outside air does not readily penetrate it. (The battlesuit might float for a little while before sinking.)

[Aninhumer]

I guess I shall add my opinions:

Rifle, Shotgun and Chaingun should work underwater BUT any bullets hitting water slow and stop almost immediatly.
(So essentially they don't work.)

Flamethrower shouldn't work underwater, as the pilot light gets put out.
(Perhaps this could be reflected in the model.)

Painsaw should just not work.
(Water shocking is just complicated.)

Lasgun, Mass Driver and Pulse Rifle should work fine.
(For reasons already explained, plus humans need something to fight with in water.)

Luci hmm... perhaps it could explode on contact with water?
(On account of the devil not wanting to get cold )

Jetpacks should not work while underwater, but work fine on the surface.

Grenades should have a larger area of effect.