What killed Tremulous?

[Kaine]

To me, the fact that Tremulous 1.1 manages to have more population than 1.2 and Unvanquished combined is a strong indicator that these forced "upgrades" are actually largely responsible for the downfall of Tremulous.

The game just wasn't popular enough/didn't have enough players to be able to split the player base between 3 games. Unvanquished doesn't really add much to the game and is mostly a visual update, which makes it less appealing to people with older or low end computers.  1.2 while remaining similar to the original changed just enough of the core mechanics to create a steep learning curve for anyone who had started playing Tremulous on 1.1

TL:DR - All my doomsday naysaying when 1.2 cam out was valid. Suck it!

[kharnov]

Unvanquished is nowhere near complete, but a lot of the artwork has been done so far, our set of stock maps is ready and still being updated, and we have some nice engine features, including renderer and infrastructure. The major gameplay changes have been pending a rewrite of the gamelogic, with the CBSE for it that we've been working on. You can expect that in the coming months, but we've already made some fundamental gameplay changes, such as with the resource system replacing build points and the momentum system replacing stages.

[Superpie]

people

[Haraldx]

THE ICE AGE!

[dGr8LookinSparky]

There were/are a lot of little problems that caused the division and decrease in the Tremulous playerbase.  I believe that the overall problems that caused all of the little problems were the way 1.2 was created with no account for transition, and that 1.2 as well as Tremulous as a whole was abandoned in the middle of a big change leaving a lot of generated issues unresolved.

In the aftermath, Tremulous.net having the appearance of being a forgotten website that lacks any updates, the download/installation of Tremulous clients being in a state of schism and confusion, the playerbase remaining divided and isolated, and the absence of any new updates to the core of the game, have all greatly worked against Tremulous getting and retaining new players that have never played before (although we still get some), as well as contributed to the loss of existing players.  Progress is not the enemy, however having a great product does not guarantee that the product will get to the end users.  How a project is executed is just as essential as the product of that project itself.  It is very easy to criticize a project, however it is not an easy task to make a project work.

In my opinion, Unvanquished is an excellent game in itself that has great potential for a promising future.  However, as kharnov said above, while Unvanquished has accomplished a great amount and continues to be actively developed, it is not complete.  So we should not judge its success at this time.  To help ensure its future success, Unvanquished should learn from the mistakes of how Tremulous was handled, and recognise the importance of a proper transition.  Just telling the players to switch is a futile task.

Unvanquished has a lot to gain from acquiring the existing playerbases of 1.1 and GPP.  We could provide a starting foundation for the Unvanquished community to build on, plus there are a lot of highly skilled developers still here on Tremulous.  The Tremulous playerbases has a lot to gain from adopting an actively developed open source game based on the fundamental concepts of Tremulous while utilizing new technologies, utilizing new game play, and having a new vision for a potentially great future of the game.

The key to a successful transition is to make the transition all about gaining the new opportunities and not at all about leaving Tremulous nor leaving behind your friends in the Tremulous communities.  Our communities may not be big according to online gaming standards, but we are close-knit and in many ways a lot like a family which is one of the main reasons I play regularly.  The players should not be required to make an either or choice between Trem and Unv.  If the players can practically and seamlessly play both Trem and Unv, while still playing with their friends, the players then can decide for themselves which game they prefer solely based on the merits of each game and not on the reluctance of being required to choose.  Also players who are not ready for a complete transition, due to Unv not being complete enough for those players, would have the opportunity to preview Unv as it improves until Unv is complete enough.

Recently there was a brainstorming meeting regarding the future of our communities.  Here is the thread about that meeting: Meeting: Tremulous, Unvanquished, & their Communities | on Saturday October 11.  Resulting from the ideas discussed in that meeting, acidtu.be has been working on several projects to unify the player bases of Tremulous 1.1, Tremulous GPP, and Unvanquished, and to help interrelate our efforts to achieve a common prosperous future.

One such acidtu.be project is the "Granger Tracker" which is a web based server browser and score tracker for all Tremulous 1.1, Tremulous GPP, and Unvanquished servers.  We have a working alpha release for the Granger Tracker here: http://track.acidtu.be/.  For information about the current development of the Granger Tracker, and to join the conversation, check out its forum here: http://forum.acidtu.be/viewforum.php?id=43.

Another such project acidtu.be is working on is the "Granger Launcher".  Included in the installer of the Granger Launcher would be 1.1, GPP, and Unvanquished clients to greatly simplify the download and installation of all three games, the installer will also check that your system satisfies the minimum system requirements before giving you the option to install Unvanquished, plus the installer will check to see if you already have one or more of the clients already installed.  Besides installing and updating those clients, the Granger Launcher would also be integrated with the Granger Tracker to browse and launch any server from any of the three games, as well as track scores while in-game.  The Granger Launcher would manage all three clients in one User Interface Overlay, so that switching between clients would be seamless and behave as if you are playing just one game, in this respect it is similar to Steam but designed specifically for Trem and Unv.  The Granger Launcher would include many other features that promote a common community, such as irc integration, and inter-server/intergame private messaging.  The Granger Launcher would also be used to fix many unresolved technical problems with the Tremulous clients, as well as provide regular updates of Unvanquished, and provide the option of direct downloading of Trem/Unv maps and mods from a comprehensive repository.  For more information about the Granger Launcher and its development check out its forum here: http://forum.acidtu.be/viewforum.php?id=44.

To learn about all of the projects acidtu.be is working on, feel free to visit our forums at http://forum.acidtu.be.  While acidtu.be's project are steadily progressing, new ideas, comments, suggestions, questions, and extra help are always welcome and encouraged.

[kharnov]

That's a lot of words.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

That's a lot of words.

There is a lot to be said on this topic .

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

That's not 1.2 sir. It's 1.2 gameplay preview. It's like the beta version of 1.2 before any assets. And no, you do NOT want to listen to the battlesuit taunt.

[Vape]

j-cool's death ruined tremulous. R.I.P. gone but always recruiting

[your face]

j-cool's death ruined tremulous. R.I.P. gone but always recruiting

LOL A+

[RubenMind92]

First of all, this text seems nearly similar to the text that can be found in the thread 'web series whatever (..)'

Code: [Select]

There were/are a lot of little problems that caused the division and decrease in the Tremulous playerbase.  I believe that the overall problems that caused all of the little problems were the way 1.2 was created with no account for transition, and that 1.2 as well as Tremulous as a whole was abandoned in the middle of a big change leaving a lot of generated issues unresolved.
Well believe is not knowledge, okay.

Code: [Select]

In the aftermath, Tremulous.net having the appearance of being a forgotten website that lacks any updates, the download/installation of Tremulous clients being in a state of schism and confusion, the playerbase remaining divided and isolated, and the absence of any new updates to the core of the game, have all greatly worked against Tremulous getting and retaining new players that have never played before (although we still get some), as well as contributed to the loss of existing players.  Progress is not the enemy, however having a great product does not guarantee that the product will get to the end users.  How a project is executed is just as essential as the product of that project itself.  It is very easy to criticize a project, however it is not an easy task to make a project work.
I disagree. I do go there alot. Thing is that it is an old game and playerbase is dwindling. That is a normal progress and i have no real problem with this. I had alot of fun with this game but at some point it is over and thats maybe for the best. Product? This is a free game Sir and not a product you can buy. Looks odd to reading your selling-text. I don't see the point - stuff and nonsense. I mean yes 'criticizing is easy, doing stuff not' but we all know that. Is this meant to fill up your post?

Code: [Select]

In my opinion, Unvanquished is an excellent game in itself that has great potential for a promising future.  However, as kharnov said above, while Unvanquished has accomplished a great amount and continues to be actively developed, it is not complete.  So we should not judge its success at this time.  To help ensure its future success, Unvanquished should learn from the mistakes of how Tremulous was handled, and recognise the importance of a proper transition.  Just telling the players to switch is a futile task.
Well i don't judge and i don't want to judge with you so yes, nice text-filler. But seriously, what are you talking about? Unv is not done? Yes all know so? First u butt-lick Tremulous, then Unvanquished and then you pretend to be someone of massive scale who can judge and evaluate unvanquished? To be hornest i know the trem devs and some unv but i certainly don't know you so who are you and why should anyone listen to someone ordinary. You have this *I know better - attitude* What does qualify you to do so?

I don't think that Unvanquished is even near Tremulous in any way. You imply that Unv WILL DO SAME MISTAKES LIKE TREM but i can't see that. Ok you want to help them but what qualifies you to do so? Haughtiness.

Code: [Select]

Unvanquished has a lot to gain from acquiring the existing playerbases of 1.1 and GPP.  We could provide a starting foundation for the Unvanquished community to build on, plus there are a lot of highly skilled developers still here on Tremulous.  The Tremulous playerbases has a lot to gain from adopting an actively developed open source game based on the fundamental concepts of Tremulous while utilizing new technologies, utilizing new game play, and having a new vision for a potentially great future of the game.
{text fill with nice sounding phrases}
I think that unv is not tremulous. Afaik unv wants to be something different. I play 1.1 often and there are maybe 30 players left so i doubt there is a big communitiy that can hop over to unv. Why would they and why should they? It is a different game and that is good. 'We could provide' No i totally disagree. You are not able to control a community as you wishes. I never heard of you so why should i go from 1.1 to unv? Because u said so? Cmon. Even this sounds like unv has no nice devs only you have. What?

Code: [Select]

The key to a successful transition is to make the transition all about gaining the new opportunities and not at all about leaving Tremulous nor leaving behind your friends in the Tremulous communities.  Our communities may not be big according to online gaming standards, but we are close-knit and in many ways a lot like a family which is one of the main reasons I play regularly.  The players should not be required to make an either or choice between Trem and Unv.  If the players can practically and seamlessly play both Trem and Unv, while still playing with their friends, the players then can decide for themselves which game they prefer solely based on the merits of each game and not on the reluctance of being required to choose.  Also players who are not ready for a complete transition, due to Unv not being complete enough for those players, would have the opportunity to preview Unv as it improves until Unv is complete enough.
{text fill with nice sounding phrases}
I don't know about your community but u handle it like it is some goods for trade.
Well i play Trem and Unv. I don't see whats the problem with that is. But i think we have different views on that. I accept unv to be a different game whereas u deny this fact.
I always though that the right / abilitiy to choose is a basic characteristic of democracy and freedom.

A lot of words by doing copy and paste? Void phrases and advertisements.
In the end all you wrote is buld up to come to one point =
-you have a good wich is 'your community'
-unv has no community
-you are the chooses one who can luckily handle over 'your' community to unv
-where is your pay-check?


Seriously i went to your site and dived in of the many threads there but i don't see a huge community or something you can call 'of importance'.
Like the web series thing. You do that for some months now and there is no result i was able to find. You have so many trem servers (gpp ?) wich are mostly dead (gametracker).
In the future please reply on post by using your brain and not copy and paste huge texts with blank phrases who go around dressed up all poshs. I think this is what kharnov was trying to tell you.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

Warning: A lot more words have been written beyond this point!  Be prepared to read carefully!  Also it seems that I have exceeded the character limit for a post, so I will attempt to divide it into two posts.

First of all, this text seems nearly similar to the text that can be found in the thread 'web series whatever (..)'

How is it similar?  My post on this thread is a reflection on past and current problems of Tremulous, and from that reflection offers possible solutions and a possible direction for the Tremulous and Unvanquished communities.  The thread I have posted about acidtu.be's web series (linked here: http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=17477.0) is to provide information about a fun project we are working on, as well as info on how people can apply if that is a project they might be interested in being a part of.  The only thing that the text of those two different posts have in common is that I wrote them.

Well believe is not knowledge, okay.

Knowledge is belief with justification.  When it comes to understanding reality, no1 can find absolute truth, and nothing in our universe is provable.  The only system of understanding that works with proper proofs is mathematics, because it deals with proofs about conditional truths and does not require those conditional truths to be the absolute reality of our universe.  If you haven't already, I suggest that you look into epistemology, it is a very interesting and useful branch of philosophy.

In my post on this thread, I have presented some justifications for my belief quoted above.  However, I am open to any sound arguments and/or evidence that suggests a different reason for Tremulous' problems.

It is not important to me if I am right or wrong, but it is important to me that we improve our understanding of reality, so that we can have a means to improve our situation in reality.  I am not afraid to make mistakes, we learn the most from our mistakes.  If no1 risked the possibility of being wrong, nothing would get done, and our species would have gone extinct a long time ago.

I disagree. I do go there alot.

What do you disagree with, my premises or my conclusion, or both?  You need to be clearer for me to understand the nature of your disagreement.  Please elaborate.

Thing is that it is an old game and playerbase is dwindling. That is a normal progress and i have no real problem with this.  I had alot of fun with this game but at some point it is over and thats maybe for the best.

If you believe that trem and its communities may be over soon and that may be for the best, why not just move on to something else yourself, rather than being so opposed to others trying to solve problems and attempt to help the communities survive and have a thriving future?  If you have accepted the death of Tremulous, you have nothing to lose if we fail at our efforts, and your time is not being wasted.

Or are you afraid that we may succeed?  If that is the case, I am sorry to disappoint you, but whining will not make us give up.

Or perhaps you are a sadistic troll to some degree looking to elicit negative reactions from people.  If that is also the case, I'm afraid that I will just defeat your irrationality with reason and your whining will still not negatively affect me.

Your possible motives for your previous post is not really important, so I shall continue.

Product? This is a free game Sir and not a product you can buy. Looks odd to reading your selling-text. I don't see the point - stuff and nonsense.

Even though Tremulous and Unvanquished are not games that players have to directly pay money to play, people can choose to play and/or develop Tremulous and/or Unvanquished, or they can choose to spend their finite time on one or more of the many competing open source games.  People do pay for Tremulous, Unvanquished, and any other open source project by giving time, effort, and providing services to such open source projects (some even pay money by renting game servers,  renting website servers, etc...).  If people stop playing and developing (modding and map making included) an open source project, then that project would be completely dead (Tremulous is not at that point yet, even though it has been heading there).

Business is all about establishing and maintaining relationships in a competitive environment that result in benefits to all parties involved.  So many business principals, such as marketing and customer service, do still apply to the success of open source projects like Tremulous and Unvanquished.

I mean yes 'criticizing is easy, doing stuff not' but we all know that. Is this meant to fill up your post?

I try my best to make no assumptions on what others know. There are many simple but important concepts that should be obvious but are ignored.  With that said, my statement of "It is very easy to criticize a project, however it is not an easy task to make a project work", is very applicable to this thread and even more applicable to your previous post on this thread, so it is a very important point.

I am always amazed at how some people complain so much with the apparent goal of making the case for giving up about any project, rather than offering any real solutions.  Constructive criticism is healthy and essential for a project, however the complaints from the whiners I am talking about are neither constructive, healthy, nor essential.

Those same people also usually passionately oppose anyone who suggests solutions or makes efforts to improve projects, even though the people attempting improvement do not ask anything in return from the whiners nor force the whiners to be a part of that project.

While this amazes me, I accept this as a natural problem for any project that needs to be taken into consideration.  Those whiners are not unique but rather manifestations of a destructive force, which is why I do my best to not take it personally.  This destructive whining is one of the bad side effects of free speech that has to be endured in order to experience the far greater positive benefits of free speech.  I still have hope in humanity because I know that while the whiners are very noisy, they are a minority.

Well i don't judge and i don't want to judge with you so yes, nice text-filler.

The judgement I was referring to was the implication from the original poster that Unvanquished has failed.  It is too soon to make that determination.

But seriously, what are you talking about? Unv is not done? Yes all know so? First u butt-lick Tremulous, then Unvanquished and then you pretend to be someone of massive scale who can judge and evaluate unvanquished? To be hornest i know the trem devs and some unv but i certainly don't know you so who are you and why should anyone listen to someone ordinary. You have this *I know better - attitude* What does qualify you to do so?

What you are doing here is committing a very common logical fallacy called ad hominem.  Rather than attacking the soundness of my statements, you are attacking me personally.  The merits of my opinions, suggestions, and arguments are independent from me and would have the same value if they came from anyone else regardless of their authority.

Just because one person, who just registered on these forums today (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31722, http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31722;sa=statPanel), happens to not know me, doesn't mean that I do not have the right to offer my input, just like how that person has the right to make his/her remarks.  I am offering my input and suggestions to the other people who want to actually do something (who are many), let them judge for themselves the usefulness of my statements.  I have no interest in taking on the likely futile task to convince a close minded individual of what is likely reality, they are not the intended recipients of my arguments.

I don't think that Unvanquished is even near Tremulous in any way. You imply that Unv WILL DO SAME MISTAKES LIKE TREM but i can't see that.

Unvanquished is unique, but it originates from Tremulous and still shares a lot of fundamental concepts.  Also, I have in no way implied that Unvanquished will make the same mistakes as Tremulous, but rather I have suggested that Unvanquished should learn from the mistakes of Tremulous.  Of course if those past mistakes are ignored, they can be repeated.

Ok you want to help them but what qualifies you to do so? Haughtiness.

Here you have committed another excellent example of the fallacy of ad hominem.

{text fill with nice sounding phrases}
I think that unv is not tremulous. Afaik unv wants to be something different.

Yes it is different, but that doesn't mean that the Tremulous communities can't enjoy a possible future being a part of the Unvanquished community, especially once it becomes practical for modding.  But also I have been trying to make the point that becoming a part of the Unvanquished community doesn't have to mean abandoning Tremulous, we can enjoy both games for what each has to offer.

I play 1.1 often and there are maybe 30 players left so i doubt there is a big communitiy that can hop over to unv.

On Tremulous GPP there are still over 50 regular players and more occasional players.  On Tremulous 1.1 there are still hundreds of players.  These players are not all on Trem at the same time, the Earth is round resulting in different time zones, and every1 has their own irl schedules they have to work around.  You have underestimated the sizes of our communities.

Why would they and why should they? It is a different game and that is good. 'We could provide' No i totally disagree. You are not able to control a community as you wishes. I never heard of you so why should i go from 1.1 to unv? Because u said so? Cmon.

As I've mentioned, acidtu.be is working on several projects that will allow downloading, installing, and playing on and between Tremulous 1.1, Tremulous GPP, and Unvanquished seamlessly with as few difficulties as possible.  Players would have the options to play all three games without any practical boundaries.  People are not forced to have these options from acidtu.be, but I believe that most people will like it, and the merits of those projects will be demonstrated as the projects are released.

Even this sounds like unv has no nice devs only you have. What?

Unvanquished has excellent devs, I have said nothing to suggest otherwise.  However, there are still excellent devs in the Tremulous 1.1 and Tremulous GPP communities that Unvanquished does not have but can benefit from if those devs decide to work on Unvanquished.

{text fill with nice sounding phrases}
I don't know about your community but u handle it like it is some goods for trade.

Again, business principals are applicable to Tremulous and Unvanquished for guiding its success as well as the success of the communities.  We do have the abilities to increase the odds of success, success is not entirely based on luck.  In this respect, our communities are the customers, and it is the games that are products.  But don't distort my recognition of this reality to suggest that my interest in our communities are a means to an end, I have many close friends in our communities and in a way they are like an extended family to me.

This post continues in my next post...

[dGr8LookinSparky]

...This is a continuation of my previous post:

Well i play Trem and Unv. I don't see whats the problem with that is. But i think we have different views on that. I accept unv to be a different game whereas u deny this fact.

Again I do not deny Unvanquished to be a different game, but rather a game with a promising future that the Tremulous communities can enjoy along side of Tremulous, because it shares many great fundamental concepts with Trem that our communities can appreciate and is under highly active development.  Also there are reasons most people in the Tremulous community do not play Unvanquished regularly, that have nothing to do with how good the game is, and if those reasons are addressed, most likely a lot more people from the Tremulous communities will begin playing Unvanquished regularly.

I always though that the right / abilitiy to choose is a basic characteristic of democracy and freedom.

I have been proposing increasing options, making those options more accessible, and decreasing the de facto phenomenon of choosing one option meaning the exclusion of others.  So contrary to what you are implying, my suggestions are to increase our freedom, and not to force people to do something they don't want to do.  I want to make it easy for people to download, intall, and play 1.1, GPP, and Unv whenever they want to, and if they decide to play one of those games more than another, that decision would not be due to inconvenience, but solely on what they enjoy.

A lot of words by doing copy and paste? Void phrases and advertisements.

You are wrong about the "copy and paste" for this thread, and you are wrong about the "void phrases", I do not bullshit.

I have included some promotion of the projects from acidtu.be to bring awareness to how we are attempting to solve problems and perhaps recruit some extra help.  But when these efforts at acidtu.be concern Tremulous communities and are relevant to the topic being being discussed in this thread, such promotions on the Tremulous.net forums are not wrong.  Again, I am offering solutions.

In the end all you wrote is build up to come to one point =
-you have a good wich is 'your community'

The Tremulous community is divided at the moment, and each of those parts are great, but we can be greater united.  I love Trem, Unv, and my community, and I want it to get even better and have a good future.  Due to this love and the fact that I recognize problems as well as solutions, I risk taking action even if it means that I would get berated by whiners.

-unv has no community

Unvanquished does have an active community, it is just that its number of currently active members is significantly smaller than even the Tremulous GPP community.  It would be beneficial for it to grow, and I have been offering suggestions that can help that happen sooner than later.

-you are the chooses one who can luckily handle over 'your' community to unv

First I would like to say wow.  All I am suggesting are practical ways that the conditions can be improved to make unification of our communities highly likely and make a good future highly likely for our communities as well.  I am making no claims nor implications to be some kind of gaming messiah.

-where is your pay-check?

I have no potential monetary gain from my attempts to improve Tremulous, Unvanquished, and its communities.  I offer my help for the same reason anyone else here does, for the benefit of the games and communities.  Also I am not alone.  There are many other people working hard at acidtu.be to try to help.  Plus there are even more people throughout GPP, 1.1, and Unv who who have been and continue to execute efforts and utilize time for the sole purpose of improving the games and helping the communities.  In fact that is one of the biggest reasons Trem and Unv exist for us to talk about here today.

Seriously i went to your site and dived in of the many threads there but i don't see a huge community or something you can call 'of importance'.

Here is our members list: http://forum.acidtu.be/userlist.php.

Also acidtu.be is actively working on many projects including but not limited to mods, the Granger Tracker, the Granger Launcher, the acidtu.be wiki, and the acidtu.be web series project.

Like the web series thing. You do that for some months now and there is no result i was able to find. You have so many trem servers (gpp ?) wich are mostly dead (gametracker).

This gets back to what I was elaborating above about my statement: "It is very easy to criticize a project, however it is not an easy task to make a project work".

In regards to the web series project we have been making a lot of progress behind the scenes.  We are working hard to produce good videos and having fun producing them.  A few months is not a lot of time in such a project to do it right and considering that all of the web series project team members are doing this in their spare time.  It will probably take a couple of more months before we are ready to release the first webisode.  Whiners will not stop that project and will not get in the way of us having fun.

A lot of progress has been made on The Granger Trakcer and its beta will be released soon.  After which focus will be on getting a beta release done for the Granger Launcher.  At that point we can resume heavy development on our supported mods, as well as assist the Unvanquished team with advancing towards their beta.

All of these projects have phases of completion, and require time (we can complete them sooner with extra help which is always welcome).  But the likely benefits from the releases of these projects greatly out-way the risks.

In the future please reply on post by using your brain and not copy and paste huge texts with blank phrases who go around dressed up all poshs.

I will communicate my ideas in the best ways I see fit, and you can't stop me from doing so.  Just like how I can't stop you from whining and committing logical fallacies in posts.

In my first post on this thread, I wrote in an attempt to thoroughly address the problem and offer solutions, which required more than a few words.  I have written even more in this post so that I can thoroughly demonstrate why your previous post on this thread was almost entirely wrong, and to avoid confusion.

I am sorry that I have to be so intellectually harsh on you in this instance, but you shouldn't expect me to not thoroughly address such a hostile and erroneous post directed towards me.

I think this is what kharnov was trying to tell you.

Regarding what kharnov was trying to tell me, I am only interested in what kharnov actually says himself.  I don't think he would appreciate you trying to put words into his mouth.

[kharnov]

That's a lot of words.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

That's a lot of words.

lol, be sure to carefully read them all my friend .

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

That's a lot of words.

lol, be sure to carefully read them all my friend .

Before they make virtual reality senses successful they should make a device that would install information in our brains with ease making school more effective. That way you could tell us what you want in an instance. Then again the device would be use for brainwashing...

[dGr8LookinSparky]

That's a lot of words.

lol, be sure to carefully read them all my friend .

Before they make virtual reality senses successful they should make a device that would install information in our brains with ease making school more effective. That way you could tell us what you want in an instance. Then again the device would be use for brainwashing...

If such a devise were to connect to the internet we would experience all porn in an instant, I'm not sure what the psychological consequences would be from that event.

[RubenMind92]

That's a lot of words.

Yes, seems like chatting someone down with text fillers and wikipedia links.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

That's a lot of words.

Yes, seems like chatting someone down with text fillers and wikipedia links.

How disappointing, it seems that yalt, I mean RubenMind92 is just a common troll unable to contribute anything of real value .

[RubenMind92]

I cutout my quotes because of readability.
I guess many users stop arguing with you BestLooking because of you text-o-ramas, its like a bombardment but i try.

How is it similar?  My post on this thread is a reflection on past and current problems of Tremulous, and from that reflection offers possible solutions and a possible direction for the Tremulous and Unvanquished communities. 
The thread I have posted about acidtu.be's web series (linked here: http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=17477.0) is to provide information about a
fun project we are working on, as well as info on how people can apply if that is a project they might be interested in being a part of.  The only thing that the text of those two different posts have in common is that
I wrote them.

It is similar because you post nearly the same stuff over and over (spam). Sorry but that was an observation. Don't be angry for me because i have done that .
Yes a solution for a non-existing problem (unv)? I know u wrote 'possible' but in that case your whole post is superfluous. Me personally, i like unv how it is today.

Knowledge is belief with justification.  When it comes to understanding reality, no1 can find absolute truth, and nothing in our universe is provable.  The only system of understanding that works with proper proofs is mathematics, because it deals with proofs about conditional truths and does not require those conditional truths to be the absolute reality of our universe.  If you haven't already, I suggest that you look into epistemology, it is a very interesting and useful branch of philosophy.
In my post on this thread, I have presented some justifications for my belief quoted above.  However, I am open to any sound arguments and/or evidence that suggests a different reason for Tremulous' problems.
It is not important to me if I am right or wrong, but it is important to me that we improve our understanding of reality, so that we can have a means to improve our situation in reality.  I am not afraid to make mistakes, we learn the most from our mistakes.  If no1 risked the possibility of being wrong, nothing would get done, and our species would have gone extinct a long time ago.

Belief is religion and knowledge science. So that means you have evidence for knowledge. For believe you don't need that.
Your statement is not getting better only because you spam texes at me. Over again you decorate all your post with
nice sounding text blocks.

'It is not important to me if I am right or wrong, but it is important to me that we improve our understanding of reality'

Eh ok then good luck doing that O_o
 

What do you disagree with, my premises or my conclusion, or both?  You need to be clearer for me to understand the nature of your disagreement.  Please elaborate.

Well it helps if you would read the whole paragraph.

If you believe that trem and its communities may be over soon and that may be for the best, why not just move on to something else yourself, rather than being so
opposed to others trying to solve problems and attempt to help the communities survive and have a thriving future?  If you have accepted the death of Tremulous,
you have nothing to lose if we fail at our efforts, and your time is not being wasted.
Or are you afraid that we may succeed?  If that is the case, I am sorry to disappoint you, but whining will not make us give up.

Wow calm down please. This is just my opinion. I like the way Unvanquished does its progress right now.
I said that i experienced this 'die out' and it is nothing abnormal. It is a normal progress and some whine and some won't. It is nothing we need a agenda to stop. It is a game Sparky -_- .
Most players i know who stopped playing Tremulous said to me that they want to play newer/modern games like Natural Selection. You can't convert Trem to such a modern game because it wouldn't be trem anymore.
I don't know you to be hornest. Don't be so agressive at me just because i strive against the stream (like many do it is not i'm the only one with differend opinions >_>).

Or perhaps you are a sadistic troll to some degree looking to elicit negative reactions from people. 
If that is also the case, I'm afraid that I will just defeat your irrationality with reason and your whining will still not negatively affect me.

Just a moment, WHAT? Troll? That is crazy. Calm down boy! You try to talk for whole communities, try to command the Unvanquished project and tell them what they have to do and i am the troll?
I'm not whining Sir. I have hornest doubts about your ideas. Wow sry, if u can't take criticism then i better shut up.

Your possible motives for your previous post is not really important, so I shall continue.

Sorry, i couldn't resist

Even though Tremulous and Unvanquished are not games that players have to directly pay money to play, people can choose to play and/or develop Tremulous and/or Unvanquished,
or they can choose to spend their finite time on one or more of the many competing open source games. 

Yes but thats the case for every game. I personally like to play LoL. I don't think that supports your statement in any way.

People do pay for Tremulous, Unvanquished, and any other open source project by giving time, effort, and providing services to such open source projects
(some even pay money by renting game servers,  renting website servers, etc...). 

Wrong, spending time != spending money. You can't buy a product by spending time. You need money. Like the term says: 'buy'. You try to evalute your product statement by
saying: let's exchange money with time and then my statement works. It does not. That is my opnion ofc. No need to rant at me.
I believe (yes no evidence needed!) that product and open source is a totally different thing.

If people stop playing and developing (modding and map making included)
an open source project, then that project would be completely dead (Tremulous is not at that point yet, even though it has been heading there).
Business is all about establishing and maintaining relationships in a competitive environment that result in benefits to all parties involved. 
So many business principals, such as marketing and customer service, do still apply to the success of open source projects like Tremulous and Unvanquished.

Oh cmon more text fillers? I think everyone knows what 'Business' and 'open source' means.
How about concentrating on the important points and not doing philosophy. Yes i know you will say that this HAS to be said because no1 would understood you but i assure you i would, even without you text-fillers.
(Sorry but this is a really annoying point. Reading sheets of text just to realize that there is only little said is a waste of time. Please BestLooking GET TO THE POINT! (no offence).)

I try my best to make no assumptions on what others know. There are many simple but important concepts that should be obvious but are ignored. 
With that said, my statement of "It is very easy to criticize a project, however it is not an easy task to make a project work", is very applicable to this
thread and even more applicable to your previous post on this thread, so it is a very important point.
I am always amazed at how some people complain so much with the apparent goal of making the case for giving up about any project,
rather than offering any real solutions.  Constructive criticism is healthy and essential for a project, however the complaints from the whiners
I am talking about are neither constructive, healthy, nor essential.
Those same people also usually passionately oppose anyone who suggests solutions or makes efforts to improve projects,
even though the people attempting improvement do not ask anything in return from the whiners nor force the whiners to be a part of that project.
While this amazes me, I accept this as a natural problem for any project that needs to be taken into consideration. 
Those whiners are not unique but rather manifestations of a destructive force, which is why I do my best to not take it personally. 
This destructive whining is one of the bad side effects of free speech that has to be endured in order to experience the far greater positive
benefits of free speech.  I still have hope in humanity because I know that while the whiners are very noisy, they are a minority.

{text filler} You threat ppl like dumb shits. Or not? Please in short. My post was about your non-information-part.
Why so agressive, i mean you are kinda insulted / butt-hurt because without you text-fillers your post wouldn't be so 'impressive'.
I think that your answer shows your refusal about other opinions. You build up your funny story about natural-whiners and prove yourself right that
the problem lies to others who have a different opinion.

'manifestations of a destructive force'

Wow, okay. O_o
You should handle ppl with different opinions like stalin did: 

Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.

I am not a whiner. In fact im very constructive. Later on you will see why.

The judgement I was referring to was the implication from the original poster that Unvanquished has failed.  It is too soon to make that determination.

So we should not judge its success at this time.

This was more about your natural spokesman behavior. It can be negative but also positive. Like you wish.

What you are doing here is committing a very common logical fallacy called ad hominem. 
Rather than attacking the soundness of my statements, you are attacking me personally.  The merits of my opinions, suggestions, and arguments
are independent from me and would have the same value if they came from anyone else regardless of their authority.

What you doing here is to convince ppl that they are wrong because they may possibly criticized you in a wrong way. But no. I was criticising your behavior and what you said and not who you are.
This is not a personal attack. But i understand that it is very easy for you to go that way. If u convince ppl that someone criticize others based on ad hominem then everything he said would be pointless.
But you don't get away that easily BestLook. The point was: What qualifies you to order ppl around in some way. Why should they do what u say. U act like a Messiah. That was my point.
And yes this is about ACTING not BEING someone. At this point your ad hominem-strategy is pointless. Please consider another way.

Just because one person, who just registered on these forums today
(http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31722,
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31722;sa=statPanel),
happens to not know me, doesn't mean that I do not have the right to offer my input, just like how that person has the right to make his/her remarks. 
I am offering my input and suggestions to the other people who want to actually do something (who are many), let them judge for themselves the usefulness of my statements. 
I have no interest in taking on the likely futile task to convince a close minded individual of what is likely reality, they are not the intended recipients of my arguments.

If that would be the case then your post would be deleted in the first place. Logical-failure. You said 'let them judge for themselves' but some text fillers before you judge for everyone.
Im with freedom and let ppl decide what they want to do. So do i and i offering you my opnion on your ideas. Okay? No need to insult me and call me close minded. Wow.. this speaks for yourself.

[RubenMind92]

How disappointing, it seems that yalt, I mean RubenMind92 is just a common troll unable to contribute anything of real value .

Sorry to dissapoint you but im not yal or whatever you think i am. But you are ofc free to think what you want but keep in mind: defamation is a crime!

[RubenMind92]

Unvanquished is unique, but it originates from Tremulous and still shares a lot of fundamental concepts. 
Also, I have in no way implied that Unvanquished will make the same mistakes as Tremulous,
but rather I have suggested that Unvanquished should learn from the mistakes of Tremulous. 
Of course if those past mistakes are ignored, they can be repeated.

Yes your first part is correct but it matter what the developers of unv want to be - different. At least that is what i thought because at some point they said so.
'Unvanquished should learn from the mistakes of how Tremulous was handled'
Well i think this means exactly what i wrote. Here:
'Unvanquished should learn (means does same mistakes because otherwise there would be no point of mention this) from the mistakes of how Tremulous was handled'

Here you have committed another excellent example of the fallacy of ad hominem.

Wrong, it is about behavior.

Yes it is different, but that doesn't mean that the Tremulous communities can't enjoy a possible future being a part of the Unvanquished community,
especially once it becomes practical for modding.  But also I have been trying to make the point that becoming a part of the Unvanquished community doesn't have to
mean abandoning Tremulous, we can enjoy both games for what each has to offer.

Sure but another community being part on another? I fail to see the point but that maybe work.
Well i already do enjoy both communties (1.1) although there is no real action at unv atm. How about let this be developed by the players themselves?
I fail to see the point of producing a forced communty and also i doubt that anyone can be important enough to command players to go to both communities.
My point here is: Why? What? Why? If players want to they will so whats the point of what u say?

On Tremulous GPP there are still over 50 regular players and more occasional players. 
On Tremulous 1.1 there are still hundreds of players. 
These players are not all on Trem at the same time, the Earth is round resulting in different time zones,
and every1 has their own irl schedules they have to work around.  You have underestimated the sizes of our communities.

I base my statements on experience and tracker software and there are not 100drets of player on 1.1 or even 50 on 1.2.
And yes i am just a dumb shit but i know the world is curved and we have time zones and yes you are the BestLooking .... -__-

As I've mentioned, acidtu.be is working on several projects that will allow downloading,
installing, and playing on and between Tremulous 1.1, Tremulous GPP, and Unvanquished seamlessly with as few difficulties as possible. 
Players would have the options to play all three games without any practical boundaries.  People are not forced to have these options from acidtu.be,
but I believe that most people will like it, and the merits of those projects will be demonstrated as the projects are released.

Alot of words and promises but i don't see the use of this. Maybe good for Trem in some way but how about open trem-> server browser -> click a server and play?
But ok i have nothing against your project and its nice if you have fun doing them but i hornestly think that not much of them really exist. Like i said the webseries.

Unvanquished has excellent devs, I have said nothing to suggest otherwise. 
However, there are still excellent devs in the Tremulous 1.1 and Tremulous GPP communities that Unvanquished
does not have but can benefit from if those devs decide to work on Unvanquished.

But you implied it somehow as a whole. It was more like a conclusion.
Well i have to admit that i was offended by what u said. Maybe i got it wrong but that is what i thought.

Again, business principals are applicable to Tremulous and Unvanquished for guiding its success as well
as the success of the communities.  We do have the abilities to increase the odds of success, success is not entirely based on luck. 
In this respect, our communities are the customers, and it is the games that are products.  But don't distort my recognition of this reality to
suggest that my interest in our communities are a means to an end, I have many close friends in our communities and in a way they are like an
extended family to me.

Well that is what you think. I do not handle players, comunnities or free games as goods. Rest: text-filler

Again I do not deny Unvanquished to be a different game, but rather a game with a promising future that the Tremulous communities can enjoy along side of Tremulous,
because it shares many great fundamental concepts with Trem that our communities can appreciate and is under highly active development. 
Also there are reasons most people in the Tremulous community do not play Unvanquished regularly, that have nothing to do with how good the game is,
and if those reasons are addressed, most likely a lot more people from the Tremulous communities will begin playing Unvanquished regularly.

Repetition, text-filler.
Player will come. Based on the game. On the ideas. The game is not made for getting alot of players. It is because of it-self. It is what it wants to be. There is no cash-cow involved.
Maybe that is our main difference. I think its a bad way to commercialize everything. You do by using business principals.

I have been proposing increasing options, making those options more accessible,
and decreasing the de facto phenomenon of choosing one option meaning the exclusion of others. 
So contrary to what you are implying, my suggestions are to increase our freedom, and not to force people to
do something they don't want to do.  I want to make it easy for people to download, intall, and play 1.1, GPP,
and Unv whenever they want to, and if they decide to play one of those games more than another, that decision
would not be due to inconvenience, but solely on what they enjoy.

That makes no sense. You want to decrease the amount of option. I said that options are good and now you said that YOU increase the amount of options (freedom).
I have nothing to add

You are wrong about the "copy and paste" for this thread, and you are wrong about the "void phrases", I do not bullshit.
I have included some promotion of the projects from acidtu.be to bring awareness to how we are attempting to solve problems
and perhaps recruit some extra help.  But when these efforts at acidtu.be concern Tremulous communities and are relevant to the
topic being being discussed in this thread, such promotions on the Tremulous.net forums are not wrong.  Again, I am offering solutions.

You offer an answer by repetetion. Text-filler, nice words. Ofc you can do advertisements but they are what they are - advertisements and nothing more.

The Tremulous community is divided at the moment, and each of those parts are great, but we can be greater united. 
I love Trem, Unv, and my community, and I want it to get even better and have a good future. 
Due to this love and the fact that I recognize problems as well as solutions,
I risk taking action even if it means that I would get berated by whiners.

No Sir im not whining and your didn't response in a fair way. Again: text filler - butt-lick - messiah has come?

Unvanquished does have an active community, it is just that its number of currently active members
is significantly smaller than even the Tremulous GPP community. 
It would be beneficial for it to grow, and I have been offering suggestions that can help that happen sooner than later.

It is in alpha status. What do you expect? Players will come on beta.

First I would like to say wow.  All I am suggesting are practical ways that the conditions can be improved
to make unification of our communities highly likely and make a good future highly likely for our communities as well. 
I am making no claims nor implications to be some kind of gaming messiah.

Well that was a theory. Don't be angry. It is not like the world dies if all goes wrong.

I have no potential monetary gain from my attempts to improve Tremulous, Unvanquished, and its communities. 
I offer my help for the same reason anyone else here does, for the benefit of the games and communities. 
Also I am not alone.  There are many other people working hard at acidtu.be to try to help. 
Plus there are even more people throughout GPP, 1.1, and Unv who who have been and continue to execute efforts and utilize
time for the sole purpose of improving the games and helping the communities.  In fact that is one of the biggest reasons
Trem and Unv exist for us to talk about here today.

Well fine but following this thread everyone should already know these nice-sounding-phrases.
Don't take it so seriously. I was just kidding. ;-)

Here is our members list: http://forum.acidtu.be/userlist.php.
Also acidtu.be is actively working on many projects including but not limited to mods, the Granger Tracker, the Granger Launcher, the acidtu.be wiki, and the acidtu.be web series project.

Okay fine so anything of that is ready or of any use? If it is: have fun with it.
I have also lists with names on it. Wanna see them? HUGE lists.
Seriously, it was just my opinion. If someone reads this he/she will probably go there (your site) and check it by themselves.

This gets back to what I was elaborating above about my statement: "It is very easy to criticize a project, however it is not an easy task to make a project work".
In regards to the web series project we have been making a lot of progress behind the scenes.  We are working hard to produce good videos and having fun producing them. 
A few months is not a lot of time in such a project to do it right and considering that all of the web series project team members are doing this in their spare time. 
It will probably take a couple of more months before we are ready to release the first webisode.  Whiners will not stop that project and will not get in the way of us having fun.
A lot of progress has been made on The Granger Trakcer and its beta will be released soon.  After which focus will be on getting a beta release done for the Granger Launcher. 
At that point we can resume heavy development on our supported mods, as well as assist the Unvanquished team with advancing towards their beta.
All of these projects have phases of completion, and require time (we can complete them sooner with extra help which is always welcome). 
But the likely benefits from the releases of these projects greatly out-way the risks.

Sure it takes time but how about come back AFTER you got something? Otherwise it looks like you are some evil guy who tries to fool ppl.
At least for me it would appear more credible.

I will communicate my ideas in the best ways I see fit, and you can't stop me from doing so.  Just like how I can't stop you from whining and committing logical fallacies in posts.
In my first post on this thread, I wrote in an attempt to thoroughly address the problem and offer solutions, which required more than a few words. 
I have written even more in this post so that I can thoroughly demonstrate why your previous post on this thread was almost entirely wrong, and to avoid confusion.
I am sorry that I have to be so intellectually harsh on you in this instance, but you shouldn't expect me to not thoroughly address such a hostile and erroneous post directed towards me.

{Text-filler}
Get this I have my opinion and therefore im entirely wrong. Learn about criticism!

Regarding what kharnov was trying to tell me, I am only interested in what kharnov actually says himself.  I don't think he would appreciate you trying to put words into his mouth.

Really but-hurt but everyone know that i didn't do that. If you can't take criticism and have to rage then say so.
You can take my critics or not. Im sure they are constructive for yourself because your ideas do not reflect reality. And maybe that is the most important point of all.
All i wrote was not to insult or offend you BestLook. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Best.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

How disappointing, it seems that yalt, I mean RubenMind92 is just a common troll unable to contribute anything of real value .

Sorry to dissapoint you but im not yal or whatever you think i am. But you are ofc free to think what you want but keep in mind: defamation is a crime!

Lol, who do you think you are fooling?  After your recent post I know you are yalt.  Btw, perhaps if you stopped using ad hominem I would stop calling you out on it.  Try some new fallacies .  Or here is a better idea, quit bullshitting and put me to shame by contributing something of real value.  It would be nice if this secret project you keep hinting about is real.  I hope that you have been doing something productive with your time since you abandoned ams shortly after promising to help him with New Edge.  I hope that you are not a one hit wonder.

Edit: I'de like to add that your most recent bullshit post in response to real reasoning is so obviously wrong it is not worth taking the time to itemise the fallacies, you made it clear to everyone that you are just being a common troll.  I'll reply more to you if you start saying something intelligent, because no1 can argue with irrationality.

[RubenMind92]

Hell i have no idea what you talking about. Please reply on my reply. Slain by your own text-blocks?
I re-registered because i forgot my old account due lack of interest in this forum because it's low use. That doesn't mean i am someone other you have problems with. I am still arguing about your ideas. If you don't want to its ok for me but don't quit this discussion because of weird mind problems. Sorry

Sincerely

[dGr8LookinSparky]

Hell i have no idea what you talking about. Please reply on my reply. Slain by your own text-blocks?
I re-registered because i forgot my old account due lack of interest in this forum because it's low use. That doesn't mean i am someone other you have problems with. I am still arguing about your ideas. If you don't want to its ok for me but don't quit this discussion because of weird mind problems. Sorry

Sincerely

I'de like to see you start arguing with my ideas for once .

[RubenMind92]

At least try spamming your text-blocks. That way you don't look too embarrassed.

[your face]

RubenMind92: I don't know why you devote hours and hours of your time to try to spam down an innocent project with good motives. To anyone who wants to put some activity into trem, good job! I haven't read all of this, I'll try to when I get home.

[RubenMind92]

RubenMind92: I don't know why you devote hours and hours of your time to try to spam down an innocent project with good motives. To anyone who wants to put some activity into trem, good job! I haven't read all of this, I'll try to when I get home.

Took only 15 minutes. I didn't put him down or his project. I was criticising some of it's / his points. You would know that if you had followed the thread properly. If you make such statements like BestLook does then at least be ready for a discussion.  
Also i didn't spam him but he did. Actually i don't use spam blocks like he did.

face: he is allowed to spam this forum but if someone like me tries to react then it is something bad?

[your face]

no, discussion is good! Any life to this wasteland, haha! Yeah sorry I really should read more, I apologize for ignorance on my part, like I said I'll try to read up when I get home. Phones stink for forum use lol I just caught some of the gist at the beginning. But as far as I'm aware sparky is trying to breathe life into trem and I'm all for that.

Upon further reading: you're right, its normal for outdated games to die out, like trem. I just devoted so much time over the years to trem that it has nostalgic value to me and I am sad to see it die off ya I'm pathetic. I really do love trem and I do realize it will never be what it was, but it's still fun to try to put some activity into it...mostly to relive the old days. I've never been into any other online community other than trem.
To sparky, I believe especially with trem, and this is from experience, that talk comes cheap, the only thing that will impress people is real hard evidence of progress.
so yeah let's see some evidence of these projects! I like your grande ideas, but all you will get here is skepticism until something exceptional is put forward.
I would say ignore the forums and do what has to be done. Instead of defending your position with text, defend with awsumness. Works better.

[Kaine]

I'm just happy to see some activity on here again finally!

j-cool's death ruined tremulous. R.I.P. gone but always recruiting

Are you for real? What happened? Someone better confirm it too, I don't trust Vape!