Designated builders: Feature design

[next_ghost]

We've talked about the idea of designated builders earlier. I'd like to get this idea thought out to detail here and then implemented. This thread doesn't really fit into any current forum section so if you could, make a coding section and move it there. I'd also very appreciate if mods could deal with trolls in this thread swiftly. Thank you.

And now to the idea. This text will be updated as changes will be made to the design. As you can guess, the 'Q's in parentheses are design questions that have to be discussed before we begin implementing the idea.

The presence of designated builder will NOT prevent anyone from getting ckit and using it, it will just limit the list of buildings nonDBs can deconstruct.

• Who can be designated builder: Anybody, class/equipment does not matter. However, DBs will still have to become granger or buy ckit in order to build, repair, decon. You can toggle protection using the reload key as builder class or you can use the /protect command anytime. Note: You have to be in decon range to toggle protection.
• How can somebody become DB: By teamvote or admin command.
• How can somebody lose DB status: By teamvote, admin command or he could /resign. Teamvote can be used to revoke admin command designation but it will revoke persistant designation for only one map.
• DB privileges: Unlimited deconstruction (even for protected structures), building protection from deconners (protected structures can be deconstructed only by another DB, any building built by DB is protected by default, DB can also toggle protection of already built structures)
• Structure protection duration: Until deconned, damaged beyond repair, toggled off by DB or until all DBs disconnect or lose DB status.
• Server admins can give permanent designation using a new privilege flag in admin.dat

Pros: Easy way to get rid of griefers and noob builders
Cons: None I can think of

Development stuff:
1) We'll need 2 icons - red "no decon" for nonDBs (cross?) and blue "protected" for DBs (shield?) that will appear above protected structures.

[SLAVE|Mietz]

cons:
-complicates the game
-vote-wars (ie. if the team is not unified in finding a builder)
-what if a designated builder builds crap, and team is too noob to recognize?
-makes the team vulerable in the phase of voting and/or basemove.

[Nosfore]

I'm also against this feature.

Adding rules makes the game less enjoyable.

[next_ghost]

-complicates the game

It should be an optional feature. If there's no DB, there'll be no difference to current situation.

-vote-wars (ie. if the team is not unified in finding a builder)

There should not be any limit of DB count. If there's a vote war, either the builders, the voters or both are noobs.

-what if a designated builder builds crap, and team is too noob to recognize?

This idea is not intended to keep players safe from their own stupidity. It's intended to keep players safe from stupidity/malice of others.

-makes the team vulerable in the phase of voting and/or basemove.

Spending a minute voting is much less vulnerability than spending 10 minutes fighting noob builders/griefers. And how does it make team vulnerable during base move?

I'm also against this feature.

Adding rules makes the game less enjoyable.

Griefers and noob builders make Tremulous more enjoyable for you? Not for me, so I want this idea implemented.

[Stof]

Spending a minute voting is much less vulnerability than spending 10 minutes fighting noob builders/griefers.

There are much more games without griefers than games with.

[Paradox]

Just have tjw add it to g_admin, then it could be used, or not used.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

How about making ckits cost 201 credits? That way it would be at least 4 minutes before a noob touched a ckit.

[kozak6]

How about making ckits cost 201 credits? That way it would be at least 4 minutes before a noob touched a ckit.

Go play a game at Transit as a human, and then reconsider your suggestion   .

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

Simple solution: delete Transit from Maplists.  It's not like Tremulous won't be the same without it.

[next_ghost]

There are much more games without griefers than games with.

And for those games without griefers, you won't have to vote for designated builder. If I haven't written it clearly enough, the presence of designated builder will NOT prevent anyone from getting ckit and using it, it will just limit the list of buildings nonDBs can deconstruct.

[kozak6]

I have an idea somewhere along these lines.

What if you had to bind "deconstruct" to a key?

It would definitely cut down on the noobs accidently deconning the reactor.

[Stof]

There are much more games without griefers than games with.

And for those games without griefers, you won't have to vote for designated builder. If I haven't written it clearly enough, the presence of designated builder will NOT prevent anyone from getting ckit and using it, it will just limit the list of buildings nonDBs can deconstruct.

I see nowhere in what you have written how it will work to prevent griefers from messing with the base if no DB is voted before the griefer starts removing things.

[next_ghost]

I see nowhere in what you have written how it will work to prevent griefers from messing with the base if no DB is voted before the griefer starts removing things.

That's the point of having DBs. You have no griefer protection now and you won't have any if you choose not to vote a DB after it'll be implemented. However, having a DB in the game even when he's not needed won't change anything at all.

[SLAVE|Mietz]

I see nowhere in what you have written how it will work to prevent griefers from messing with the base if no DB is voted before the griefer starts removing things.

That's the point of having DBs. You have no griefer protection now and you won't have any if you choose not to vote a DB after it'll be implemented. However, having a DB in the game even when he's not needed won't change anything at all.

so you necessarily say, you idea is totally unnecessary?

[Aninhumer]

Here's my understanding:

Situation 1:
Team has a good builder, and a crap builder who keeps ruining the base.
With the DB system, the team would vote for the former to be a DB.
The DB can then protect everything, and block out the crap one.

Situation 2:
Team has a good builder, and a learner builder who listens to instructions, but still makes mistakes occasionally.
With the DB system, the team would vote for the former to be a DB. (And the latter would agree)
The newbie can then help out, without people worrying about him deconning something important.

Situation 3:
Team has a few good builders.
With the DB system, there would be no problems and a DB would never be voted in.
The game continues normally.

I think the second is not something people have considered yet either.
(Probably because there are many n00bs, and few newbies willing to learn)

[next_ghost]

so you necessarily say, you idea is totally unnecessary?

No, I say it's sort of "deconner insurance". You don't have to use it if you think your base is safe from idiots but if it isn't, you can take precautions that can save you much pain. Read what Aninhumer wrote.

[Lava Croft]

Why don't you just kick/ban the annoying builder/TKer?

Seriously though, what you people want is to impose limitations. Limitations that will surely annoy the crap out of a lot of players, since most players are just nice people, who do not want to TK, nor replace properly built bases. I think it's pretty damn sad people want to impose rules/limitations for the sake of a minority of retards. Vigilant players and strong admins can easily solve this 'problem'.

[Stof]

I agree totaly with Lava and I think such feature would be a huge waste of coding time.

[PIE]

Why don't you just kick/ban the annoying builder/TKer?

Seriously though, what you people want is to impose limitations. Limitations that will surely annoy the crap out of a lot of players, since most players are just nice people, who do not want to TK, nor replace properly built bases. I think it's pretty damn sad people want to impose rules/limitations for the sake of a minority of retards. Vigilant players and strong admins can easily solve this 'problem'.

Good admins solve the problem.. Vigilant players can try to solve the problem.. but the problem is the voting system can be unreliable.
The greifer can try to jam the voting system, maybe change their name after a few decons, use the black letter bug etc.. not to mention when people try to vote off good players who just picked the wrong time to try to move something etc... Not to mention, by the time a vote starts damage has been done.
So obviously people will try to find a better way to deal with this problem, but the fact is that when things are getting tight you need not to have to rely on votes.. especially when you need to move right at the start of the map. Too much voting in some servers as it is. This is not the solution

[next_ghost]

Why don't you just kick/ban the annoying builder/TKer?

Seriously though, what you people want is to impose limitations. Limitations that will surely annoy the crap out of a lot of players, since most players are just nice people, who do not want to TK, nor replace properly built bases. I think it's pretty damn sad people want to impose rules/limitations for the sake of a minority of retards. Vigilant players and strong admins can easily solve this 'problem'.

If they don't try to replace properly built bases, this limitation will not affect them in ANY way. If you don't hesitate to ban somebody just for being too unexperienced, most of other admins do and most players won't votekick for anything short of reactor decon.

And if you think it'll be just a waste of coding time, it'll be MY wasted coding time.

So, could we get to the design questions already?

[Stof]

Question : what if the griefers start deconstructing buildings with a painsaw ? Shall we make all the buildings immune to FF too and thus promote the Lucifer/Flamer usage inside the human base as a defense tool ?

[next_ghost]

Question : what if the griefers start deconstructing buildings with a painsaw ? Shall we make all the buildings immune to FF too and thus promote the Lucifer/Flamer usage inside the human base as a defense tool ?

That's good reason for permanent ban and some servers will automatically kick for that. Anyway, it takes some time to TK structures and anybody around your base can TK you before you can seriously damage the reactor.

Any more pointless attempts to discredit this idea or can we finally start talking about the design?

[Stof]

That's good reason for permanent ban and some servers will automatically kick for that. Anyway, it takes some time to TK structures and anybody around your base can TK you before you can seriously damage the reactor.

Any more pointless attempts to discredit this idea or can we finally start talking about the design?

Permanent ban ? You mean with an admin at hand so. What's the point of that DB crap if you have an admin available ?

Do you know how much DPS you get out of a painsaw ? Do you really think you'll be able to react to such act in time ? I mean, are you always in the base checking nobody painsaws the armory/telenodes ? You must not be a good player then.

And about the automatic kick, IT SUCKS A LOT. After all, painsaw IS the most efficient tool to deconstruct the old base as fast as possible during a move ( no deconstruct timer to wait for ). Combine that with the awful job tremulous does to warn you about friendly fire and the generaly stupid algorithms used to detect accidental FF from griefer FF which kick honest players much more often than they kick griefers.

[next_ghost]

Permanent ban ? You mean with an admin at hand so. What's the point of that DB crap if you have an admin available ?

Saving his work and builder time.

Do you know how much DPS you get out of a painsaw ? Do you really think you'll be able to react to such act in time ? I mean, are you always in the base checking nobody painsaws the armory/telenodes ? You must not be a good player then.

And about the automatic kick, IT SUCKS A LOT. After all, painsaw IS the most efficient tool to deconstruct the old base as fast as possible during a move ( no deconstruct timer to wait for ). Combine that with the awful job tremulous does to warn you about friendly fire and the generaly stupid algorithms used to detect accidental FF from griefer FF which kick honest players much more often than they kick griefers.

Most servers have increased decon timer (about 3 times longer than default 5 seconds) as a simple deconner defense. With DBs around, those servers could return back to the short default decon timer and you wouldn't have to use painsaw instead of ckit.

[Stof]

Painsaw also means you are not defenseless while removing the old base.

[PIE]

Question : what if the griefers start deconstructing buildings with a painsaw ? Shall we make all the buildings immune to FF too and thus promote the Lucifer/Flamer usage inside the human base as a defense tool ?

FF penalty for structures. Destroying a structure without the kit, or hurting a teammate and you get a small health penalty..
Of course you can argue deconning with a painsaw can be good for moving bases or something, but really it circumvents the timer and is way to useful for deconners. Its more like a loophole than a good tactic... Learn to use the blaster to defend yourself!

[next_ghost]

I've started coding this feature and right now, I need some testers. If you want to run a test server, get SVN codebase and apply the second partial patch from Tremulous Bugzilla.

Features so far:
- !(un)designate admin command to handle designation, 'd' flag in admin.dat
- structures built by designated builders are automatically protected
- only designated builders can decon protected structures
- designated builder can toggle structure protection using the reload key (he has to be granger or use ckit)
- teamchange and mapchange cancel designation
- when all designated builders in the team disconnect/change team/lose DB status, all structures of that team lose protection

Features to be done:
- persistent designation list
- teamvote designation

[Amtie]

Wasnt this thread dead?  

[Aninhumer]

Yeah, but this is actually an important development.

[next_ghost]

Another patch with teamvotes is done. You can get it here.