Sudden Death Balance

[tjw]

Aliens have a clear advantage once Sudden Death starts.  This is due to the fact that they only need to kill armouries to revert a human team back to Stage1 since they cannot rebuild an armoury during Sudden Death.  Aliens on the other hand are free to rebuild their Overmind (at least currently).  Now here are some solutions:

1) Don't allow buildings with 0 build points to be built in sudden death (r1trem does this?)

2) Make armoury cost 0 bp, but limit the number allowed (1 or 2?).

I'm an advocate of #2.  I like Sudden Death being not-so-sudden since I find the end game to be the most entertaining part of the match, especially in close games.

[Stof]

Maybe change the SD rules to only prevent building turret and spawns. It should be enouth to cause the game to end soon while still providing both teams with the same offensive and healing capabilities.

After all, humans cannot regen like aliens and thus killing the medistation would also be a big blow for them. The armory and the medistation are so weak that building a ton of them wouldn't be of much help.

Thus I would chose none of the above choices

[Paradox]

As i told you yesterday in sst, i like the idea of adjusting what can be built, and putting an overall limit, like you did with only 1 armory. It would be cool if we could get cvars for all of this added to g_admin, say:

• g_amrorybps
• g_armorynumb
• g_medistatbps
• g_medistatnumb
• g_telebps
• g_telenumb
• g_dccbps
• g_dccnumb
• g_boosterbps]*]g_boosternumb
• g_eggbps
• g_eggnumb

Are the only ones that would be needed.

[tjw]

As i told you yesterday in sst, i like the idea of adjusting what can be built, and putting an overall limit, like you did with only 1 armory. It would be cool if we could get cvars for all of this added to g_admin, say:

• g_amrorybps
• g_armorynumb
• g_medistatbps
• g_medistatnumb
• g_telebps
• g_telenumb
• g_dccbps
• g_dccnumb
• g_boosterbps]*]g_boosternumb
• g_eggbps
• g_eggnumb

Are the only ones that would be needed.

This change could not be a cvar easily since the client needs to know the number of build points each buildable costs.

[PIE]

You have a point..
Maybe connecting the armory to the generator.. perhaps it can't be destroyed while the generator (defense computer maybe?) is up... maybe like a forcefield kind of thing. Aliens can't evolve when the OM is down, but when its up they can from anywhere. I think linking them would be more close to what the aliens have and keep it balanced because you still have to buy an armory, and it can still be destroyed.

[Stof]

If you want to limit the buildings, you could go for a BP reduction algorithm : each time a turret is killed/deconstructed, you lose the corresponding BP, but not if the amory is killed. Should be simple enouth to implement once you decide which buildings are "impossible to replace" in SD.

[Ksempac]

Oh i m used to db@ servers (the only servers where i get a decent ping) and i didnt know they used a special SD. I m used to 0 build point SD and it works pretty well.

It always favors the team who is already winning but cant pass through the ennemy defenses because they rebuild too fast.

But i guess this also depends on how long your SD lasts. This setting is useful for 5 min SD. Its hard to resist, but if teams aren t too unbalanced you can manage to barely escape your doom during the 5 min. If your SD is longer, this setting will probably ends the game faster.

Can someone tells me what are the default settings for SD in Trem ?

[Somethief]

What about this:
When a building is destroyed while it's sd, you will have half of the bps back, this would generate a mission to aliens, rape the base without giving humans enought bps to build armoury, new turrets or tele & repeater set.

It's just a suggestion, but might be funny

[tjw]

Can someone tells me what are the default settings for SD in Trem ?

Code: [Select]


//after 55 minutes, all build points are removed
set g_suddenDeathTime 55
//after 60 minutes, the game will end as a draw
set timelimit 60


[tjw]

If you want to limit the buildings, you could go for a BP reduction algorithm : each time a turret is killed/deconstructed, you lose the corresponding BP, but not if the amory is killed. Should be simple enouth to implement once you decide which buildings are "impossible to replace" in SD.

Except you KNOW some builders are going to try to build another turret instead of an armoury with the precious last 10 build points

[Stof]

Well, maybe deconstructing turrets should give back the BP to the team but then you might need something to prevent the humans from deconstructing a turret just before aliens kill them.

Except from that, it's just something else human builders have to learn

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

Or you could just make the OM not-rebuildable.

[Somethief]

Or you could just make the OM not-rebuildable.

No, its good that you can rebuild it..

[Stof]

Doesn't matter too much, Humans are still at a disavantage even when SD means no building at all. OM down only means aliens have to avoid dieing. Armory down means no more chaingun, no more shootgun and riflemen have to die to get more ammo.

[Norfenstein]

Maybe change the SD rules to only prevent building turret and spawns. It should be enouth to cause the game to end soon while still providing both teams with the same offensive and healing capabilities.

After all, humans cannot regen like aliens and thus killing the medistation would also be a big blow for them. The armory and the medistation are so weak that building a ton of them wouldn't be of much help.

This makes the most sense. I really hate only being allowed one armoury since it makes moving more difficult and ties humans to their bases even more than they already are (even though, yea, no one actually tries making forward human bases it's still nice to be able to). Plus losing medistations is almost as crippling as losing armouries.

Sudden death should just disallow rebuilding of spawns and defensive structures (defense computer may or may not qualify, all alien structures except booster, spawns, and om would qualify) so the goal becomes knocking down defensive structures until you can get to the enemy spawns. You could also lower build points to the total cost of armouries, medistations, boosters, and maybe defense computers present at the onset of sudden death to simplify allowing those structures to be rebuilt instead of just saying you get one of each of these.

[tjw]

Sudden death should just disallow rebuilding of spawns and defensive structures (defense computer may or may not qualify, all alien structures except booster, spawns, and om would qualify)

You don't think aliens should be able to rebuild OM?

I like the idea of just limiting SD building to non-defensive, non-spawn structures.

TBH I don't think Hovel should be allowed to be rebuilt (or Repeaters either) since they can act as barricades.

Ideally it should probably just be Reactor, Overmind, Medi, and Armoury that can be built in SD since those are the structures that maintain player upgrades.

Implementing this in a non-hacky way is the hard part.  Perhaps if build points weren't actually removed in Sudden Death, but instead you just get an error whenever you try to build something other than one of those structures.  Like:

"Only buildings essential for survival can be constructed during Sudden Death"

Of course, this would probably also have to have a check to make sure you could only construct one of those structures if there wasn't one already or you would wind up with 10 armories.

[DarkRogue]

The only thing needed to make it even is remove the ability for the om to be rebuilt.

Currently a mara can kamikaze the human base and take out the arm and end any hope humans can of winning but if a human kamikazes the overmind....it just gets rebuilt.

Once the om can no longer be rebuilt it's a balanced playing field, the key structure which allows the powerful units/weapons to exist can be permanently removed.

As for reactor rebuilding...one has to really ask: how many times does the reactor go down and the humans manage to survive to see it rebuilt? One in twenty games maybe if that?

And yeah r1trem does remove ANY building after sd and it works quite well. Aliens have to protect the om as much as humans have to protect their armory.

[Stof]

Sudden death should just disallow rebuilding of spawns and defensive structures (defense computer may or may not qualify, all alien structures except booster, spawns, and om would qualify)

You don't think aliens should be able to rebuild OM?

Yeah, for all purposes, OM does not qualify as a defensive structure and it is the equivalent of the armory. So if humans can replace reactor and armory, aliens *should* be able to replace the OM.

Not sure if the Defense Comp does apply though. I would suspect that if that one was easy to kill and vital to the base ( lot's of tesla ), humans wouldn't have lasted until SD anyway so it shouldn't matter too much that you can rebuild it.

The only thing needed to make it even is remove the ability for the om to be rebuilt.

Currently a mara can kamikaze the human base and take out the arm and end any hope humans can of winning but if a human kamikazes the overmind....it just gets rebuilt.

I played on servers which prevent any build during SD, it still favors aliens greatly. Armory is far easier to kamikaze run than the OM. At alien stage 3, the only reason the human armory and defense comp aren't killed instantly is that the Tyrant/Adv Goon will probably suicide in the operation and the building would be replaced in a matter of seconds. In SD aliens wouldn't think twice before kamikazing a Tyrant on the armory.

PS : I don't think having ten armories is such a problem in SD. As I said, they would die very very quickly once all the turrets are down. I guess it's something we'll have to test so having a cvar to toggle that behaviour in the next version could be a good idea if we go for that SD behaviour.

[Norfenstein]

Ideally it should probably just be Reactor, Overmind, Medi, and Armoury that can be built in SD since those are the structures that maintain player upgrades.

That's what I meant, plus booster since it is/will become an important upgrader (booster, eggs, and overminds I don't consider "defensive structures", but we don't want eggs rebuildable). Still not sure about the DC.

Implementing this in a non-hacky way is the hard part.  Perhaps if build points weren't actually removed in Sudden Death, but instead you just get an error whenever you try to build something other than one of those structures.  Like:

"Only buildings essential for survival can be constructed during Sudden Death"

Of course, this would probably also have to have a check to make sure you could only construct one of those structures if there wasn't one already or you would wind up with 10 armories.

That's why I suggested cutting build points down to the amount that would cover existing rebuildable structures (plus explicitly disabling the building of other structures so those points couldn't be misused). That way you wouldn't have 10 armouries (maybe two meds instead of the med+armoury you started with, but that's not a problem) unless you built them all before SD started... which would be pretty stupid because those turrets you can't rebuild in SD are pretty important. This way the game would never have to dictate how many of each structure can be built.

[kozak6]

I think I approve the rebuilding of the armory for SD.  Sounds good.

[Jaradcel]

I agree. One of the best ways to balance SD is to either allow armories to continue to be built, or make it so the OM cannot be rebuilt.

DComps I see as being a 50-50 option. Good builders will NOT stupidly make their entire base tesla-only, but a good base would need it. Check out my Karith map in the "Good base location" thread about how I built my test-karith base - (Although I should get new pictures of version 2 and 3) for a breakup.

Currently, SD is, IMO, one of the biggest reasons why Aliens win a hell load of SD's. All the aliens need to do is kamikaze the armory/dcomp, and the humans can all /quit and "gg". Humans? Have to survive tyrants (We usually already hit S3 by then) adv. goons, and a base that won't die because the OM keeps respawning. =\

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

And if you're going to make it so armories can be rebuilt, then you have to make them give evos for being taken down.  Human suicides on OM, gets credits, and OM can be rebuilt.  Alien suicides on armory, no credit return, and arm can be rebuilt.

But I still think no more OM rebuilding is fair and simple enough if you want to balance it out.

[kevlarman]

And if you're going to make it so armories can be rebuilt, then you have to make them give evos for being taken down.  Human suicides on OM, gets credits, and OM can be rebuilt.  Alien suicides on armory, no credit return, and arm can be rebuilt.

But I still think no more OM rebuilding is fair and simple enough if you want to balance it out.

the difference is that armories have very little hp, and as a result, any alien that has 2 points to spare can take it out if the humans aren't careful, and any alien with 4 points to spare can take it out pretty much any time they can get LoS on it without stepping into turret range , the reactor and om require much more for a suicide run to be successful.

[Undeference]

Aliens have a major advantage in the game regardless. If the aliens can get stage 3, they will almost always be able to even the game out. On the other hand, if it's s2 humans vs. s3 aliens, they don't (and never will) have a chance. Allowing armouries to be rebuilt would make the human SD more even to alien SD, but I think it takes away any likelihood of a lucky alien win.

So I have some ideas for sudden death that would make things interesting to say the least.

My first idea was to make sudden death more sudden and to really give anyone (even a rifleman with no armor) the chance to end the game. And that is simply that once sudden death rolls around, all defensive structures (turrets, teslas, acid tubes, trappers) stop working. Spawns cannot be rebuilt.
This would mean that a team trapped in its base will always lose when sudden death comes around. But if anyone can escape, they can end the game (if dretches can attack buildings).
As a side effect, I think that it encourages hiding. So when the timelimit comes around, and if there is a team that cannot respawn (but the other team can), the team the can respawn wins. Otherwise it is a tie. (A lone armorless rifleman could tie the game, but not get the humans a win if they can't kill off the aliens.)


My second idea was fairly simple: limit the number of respawns allowed during sudden death (default 3?). Don't mess with the build points or anything like that. That way, I think that a human team that is doing well during the beginning of the game can't lose in 20 seconds when a couple tyrants maul their base. But at the same time, it encourages spawn camping during sudden death, makes SD less fun for newbies, and makes it even harder to get to the next stage. (To prevent people from reconnecting to get 3 more respawns, don't allow spectators to join during SD.)


I don't know if either of these would work at all. I just think they might be interesting. (And they make "sudden death" more like its name.)

[Stof]

Are you kiding ? Did you play Trem in SD more than a couple games ?

The point of the changes for SD is to make it more balanced because for now, it favors Aliens greatly. And if the OM cannot be rebuilt either, it still favors the Aliens. And if you shutdown the defensive structures, it means the humans will die very very shortly while they still have to hunt for the hidden eggs ! Your suggestion will only make SD even more unbalanced that it is.

Besides, the defensive structures will go down soon enouth in SD.

[Undeference]

Are you kiding ? Did you play Trem in SD more than a couple games ?

No, yes

The point of the changes for SD is to make it more balanced because for now, it favors Aliens greatly. And if the OM cannot be rebuilt either, it still favors the Aliens.

Judging by your next sentences, this was addressed to me. However, I have no idea how it related to what I said.

And if you shutdown the defensive structures, it means the humans will die very very shortly while they still have to hunt for the hidden eggs !

Only if the humans are already losing or coward up in their base during sudden death. The idea to which you are referring would prevent the humans from doing that.
I recall reading that egg hunts is being addressed. On some maps, if the aliens just build eggs and no other structures, they will either tie or win. This is not an issue with my ideas, but with the ability to hide eggs anywhere.

Your suggestion will only make SD even more unbalanced that it is.

By giving the lowest classes a chance (albeit small) of getting their team a tie?

Besides, the defensive structures will go down soon enouth in SD.

So you agree that at least one of my ideas might have some merit.

[Jaradcel]

You have GOT to be smoking crack to make all the defenses get turned off. Have you SEEN good alien hiding places?

I thought armories were like every other building, they give an evo point for wiping it.

The problem as I realized is that: OM's have a huge amount more HP then an armory (since it also doubles as the alien's "reactor") and is therefore much harder to take down (I'm not saying it's impossiblem painsaws FTW) compared to an armory.

But maybe this gets balanced out by build times - OM's take about 40 seconds to build, armories around 30. That 10 seconds could be the defining factor. Could. And if somehow, the armory/OM is taken down AGAIN while being built, that usually spells game over for the team anyway, so factoring in the build timers is negligible.

Thoughts?

[Stof]

And if you shutdown the defensive structures, it means the humans will die very very shortly while they still have to hunt for the hidden eggs !

Only if the humans are already losing or coward up in their base during sudden death. The idea to which you are referring would prevent the humans from doing that.

Even a very strong human team will get wiped out shortly after SD starts if you shut down the turrets. Doing that is in no way balancing the SD, it is making it even more unfair for humans. You might as well make it so that SD self destructs all the human buildings it would be the same.

Did you try the alien turrets agaisnt a stage 3 human team ? They are next to useless compared to the human turrets, yet the game is considered more or less balanced. Shutting down the turrets will hurt the humans FAR MORE than the aliens.

I recall reading that egg hunts is being addressed. On some maps, if the aliens just build eggs and no other structures, they will either tie or win. This is not an issue with my ideas, but with the ability to hide eggs anywhere.

I do not make suggestions based on whatifs about the next version.

[Undeference]

Even a very strong human team will get wiped out shortly after SD starts if you shut down the turrets.

Have you ever been part of a strong human team? It consistently keeps pressure on the aliens and effectively forces them to play defensively. If a team in its offense depends heavily on defensive structures, it is a very bad team.

Did you try the alien turrets agaisnt a stage 3 human team ?

Properly positioned acid tubes in good bases are more effective than the average turret. Furthermore, just because a human can get a bsuit (assuming he can), doesn't mean he will.

I do not make suggestions based on whatifs about the next version.

Are you saying that egg hunts are an essential part of the game that should not be changed? I think the game you are looking for is hide and seek.

The purpose of communicating ideas is to improve on good parts and fix bad parts. You are welcome to dislike my ideas. You are also welcome to try improving upon them.

[Chojin]

Ideally it should probably just be Reactor, Overmind, Medi, and Armoury that can be built in SD since those are the structures that maintain player upgrades.

If you want the Human Medi in, please also allow the Alien Booster.

Currently I have SD completely disabled on Aliens' Wrath because of this Armory Problem.

Any change you decide on will be good. I prefer to limit building to non-defensive and non-spawn structures, lowering the buildpoints available and zero the cost of currently built defensive and spawn structures. I'd give humans 18 buildpoints and only allow them to build Armory and Medi, Aliens with 12 could build Booster.

On the other hand, you should get the same result, if you could pass the hovel-attribute (no cost, only one allowed) onto the Armory, Medi and Booster once SD has started and keep the current zero buildpoints situation...?