Help from the masses

[Anonymous]

We've been having problems coming up with weapons/forms of attack for the mid droid offensive classes.  This quote's pasted from our original post in the Team Discussion forum:

OFFENSE
1-2-2-3
1.1- no armor, fast movement, poison, wallwalking
2.1- no armor, fast movement, circular saw
2.2- low armor, fast movement, ?
3.1- low armor, fast movement, ?
3.2- moderate armor, moderate movement, ?
4.1- low armor, chainscythe, sawblade launcher, fast movement
4.2- moderate armor, chainscythe, moderate movement
4.3- high armor, scythe, disrupter grenade, slow movement

Anyone care to fill in the question marks with viable ideas? Keep in mind, there must be a balance of armor vs firepower. Keep them to melee for the rest, thats all I ask... the more devious and deadly the melee weapon, the better.


Here's a flowchart that shows the process of evolution for the Droid offensive classes.  Classes where we need weapon opinions are marked in blue.



Any suggestions well be considered and appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Thank you Ire :grin:

[Anonymous]

Well the hierarchy had been finished for some time now I was just waiting til you had finalized the evolution process before I posted it...

...but this seems to put it to better use don't you think?  

Either way, LET'S HAVE SOME OF THEM IDEAS WE CRAVE SO MUCH!

[Timbo]

Mmmm, yummy ideas.

[Norfenstein]

I'd like to point out (in case it isn't clear) that a complex and convoluted weapon system isn't the best way to go. Of course we can have an assload of nasty stuff to play with, but when big guns (and swords) don't do big damage, and little guns do too much damage (coughgloomcough), it gets a little too messy. Just a caution to keep things as streamlined as possible and deep as possible too!

Injective Needle --> Heat Sword --> Circular Saw --> Spike Fist --> BFA (Big Fucking Axe) --> Scythe --> Chainscythe

After injective needle I'd put some sort of super-heated sword that could damage armor (and maybe burn players!) but isn't so swell at penetrating it.

After circular saw, maybe have some sort of hyrdaulic or pneumatic "spike fist" that can punch through armor rather well, but doesn't too incredible amounts of damage if you don't hit the right spot (am I right in thinking their will be locational damage?).

After that, I'd just give the droid a big ass battle axe that would incredibly slow but incredibly damaging (would be good defenders).

I don't know how well others would take it, but seeing some variation of an airfist in Tremulous would please me to a great degree :smile:.

Some special attack ideas:

• Plasma Breath: Release a build up of super heated plasma in medium range cone. It would char unprotected flesh and heat armor to such a degree as to either damage the wearer or make him very uncomfortable (stamina reduction).
• Electrical Discharge: Surround the user in electrical shield that would disrupt energy weapons and shock humans (either damaging health or stamina)
• Chain spear: Launch a projectile spear that can be reeled back in via an attached chain. Could pull in hapless humans or possible translocate the user like a grappling hook (it should definitely be affected by gravity though, due to it's size)
• Self-destruct: For when your day really isn't going well. There should be severe limitations on this, so players would only want to use it in the direst of situations, with it still being useful anyway.
• AI Familiar: Floating or roaming mechanical bot buddy that can attack, scout or defend the user. Can be set to remote control, defense (it'll try to block threats), or offense. I think this might've been discussed before...
• Nanobot Cloud: Expel a cloud of insidious nanobots that will slowly disperse if left alone, or enter the bodies of any human entering it. Nanobots could affect humans in different ways like killing them outright, reducing their stamina, skewing their aim or vision, or all of the above.

Bah, me and Mister Render here will try to think of more creative things...



EDIT: well the pic was working...


[ This Message was edited by: DarkStorm on 2001-04-08 11:35 ]

[DarkStorm]

Those are some damn good ideas Norfenstein.  I'm at liberty to say that none of those ever crossed our minds when we were brainstorming.  I'm discussing a lot of your weapon ideas with Timbo right now and the response is rather positive.  You see a lot of your semi-ranged weapons could be useful on our defensive classes.  As soon as Caustic shows up this is the first item I'm pointing him to.  Thanks a lot for the input Norfenstein.

[ This Message was edited by: DarkStorm on 2001-04-08 12:27 ]

[Norfenstein]

Glad you like, I got some more (and look at this pic I was trying to post)

• Chameleon Skin: I know this has been though up before, but I think much more than just "going invisible" can be done with it. Would it be possible (and practicle) to have droids with this ability to actually adopt the texture of the wall they're behind? This would definitely be a neat effect, but would also make things a little fairer so that humans would have to decide if their eyes were just tricking them or they actually saw something hidden. Plus droids would have to use it up against a wall and not sitting in and blocking a hallway...
• Blind Spot Manipulation: Basically any droid with this ability would be totally invisible when looked at directly (which you'd need to do to aim at it) but would be more visible when looked at out of the corner of your eye (I assume shaders could allow for varying degrees of invisibily for each player). This would require humans to "guess" their shots at these droids, and also forcing the droid to be in the sights of humans it wants to fool. Just a neat twist on vision tricking...
• Radiation: Humans in close proximity to these droids would gradual lose stamina and eventual begin taking damage when further exposed. Those exposed excessive lengths of time would get radiation sickness (complete with nausea, skewed vision and aiming) and could actually pass it on to teammates. Nifty.
• Weapon Assimilation: Human has a big gun, droid kills human, droid takes big gun. Droids should only be allowed to attach one human weapon to themselves and also suffer aiming penalties and such. Once they run out of ammo the weapon would be discarded (no refills).

I'd also like to say that maybe it'd be a good idea for there to be a set of special skills for droids that they could select to add to the base speed, armor, and weapon of the class they've chosen. Skill selection would be limited to ones appropriate to their class (so defenders couldn't do certain things that would be better for attackers, etc.)

Also, I hope that humans will actually have to drag back dead droid bodies to their MCU to get upgrade points, rather then it just be kill droid, get frag, buy stuff with frag. This would force humans into closer range to reap their reward, and would also allow for ambushes and such (maybe droids could move around their dead for this purpose).

Will we have an encumbrance system for humans? If so, how will it work exactly?

[Cybernetsam]

As a defensive/siege ability, how about a directional power shield? You charge it up, then release. This creates a translucent wall made up of various forms of energy contained by a magnetic field.

Now, this 'wall' would block projectiles, as well as players, from passing through. It would provide only a limited resistance to explosive weaponry. The shield would be slightly larger than the droid class that is equipped with it, so that teammates can use it to thier advantage.

In order for the shield to remain stable, the player must stand there, feeding it energy. As soon as you run out of energy, the shield fails. As the shield recieves damage, it drains energy faster. Thus you could block a doorway, or provide cover for your teammates in an otherwise open field. The user can turn off the shield, but it takes a few seconds to deactivate. While the shield is active, the player cannot move.

[edit]AI familiar, eh? Playing a little bit of PSO? :smile:[/edit]

[ This Message was edited by: Cybernetsam on 2001-04-08 11:24 ]

[Carcinogen]

Norfenstein:

• Chameleon Skin: Yes, this idea has been tossed around for gloom2 awhile back, but (to my knowledge) never was really noticed. Lets see if it is possible first, I'll ask Timbo if he can make it practical.
• Blind Spot Manipulation: I love this idea. I want it in Tremulous, and Timbo explained it is possible. A quote from #tremulous:

<Timbo> blind spot stuff is pretty easy
<Timbo> just calculate angles and see the alpha/visibility appropriately

I was thinking, that we could postpone this idea, and when Tremulous is released and refined, we add another branch called "Stealth" or something to that nature, along with the normal Offensive, Defensive, etc. Or, we could just have a droid with this ability, if we REALLY want this ability added.

• Radiation: A potent Carcinogen :wink: It will give you radiation sickness... maybe the next day. It will give you cancer and stuff, maybe after 5 years. Realistically, unless the radiation was extremely(!) potent, it wouldn't explain very nicely. Also, this might lead to adverse effects such as people feeling "old" with their bad vision and nausea, so they commit "suicide" to become fresh again. Not a fun way out. Unless, of course, you had some sort of upgrade to counter the radiation sickness. Actually, if you had such a counter, it would sound, on paper, realistically plausible. Lets see what the rest of the team thinks.
• Weapon Assimilation: Hrrm, the only thing that bugs me about this is the "Necrotoxin-A" explanation we made earlier. (Rip from plan:)

"This chemical, called "Necrotoxin-A", is administered through melee or certain projectiles. This toxin then becomes active through chemical signals in nerve cells, effectively making the toxin only become active in live hosts. Once dead, when a droid infests, "Necrotoxin-B" is administered to the corpse. Both Necrotoxin type "A" and "B" chemically react to melt the corpse into a malleable form, to then be added on to existing flesh."

As you can see, the problem with this ability would be the same problem we came across deciding that all droids would have melee weapons; if the droids were so smart, why not just blow the humans away with long range, instead of risking getting up close? So DarkStorm and I came up with the Necrotoxin idea to explain. Maybe, the downside to this is that you cannot infest that in which you killed. The assimilation of a powerfull weapon is a  suburb ability any droid would want, but to keeping it from being too powerfull... it wouldn't be able to create "primed" dead humans for infestation. Kinda like a mech in gloom not getting any frags for its kills, heh.

This could actually be plausible if we really want to limit infestation of corpses. The Necrotoxin idea was used to explain why the droids do what they do, not to limit what they do (but the latter is becoming more frequent).
[/list]
In conclusion, you kick ass norf.

Cybernetsam:

Directional Power Shield: If you had this shield block only from the front, the human players would quickly find a way to the other side of the droid and attack it from the side or back. I would suggest having it cover the droid completely.

Considering the maps in Tremulous will be more dependent of layout than what some maps from some certain mods... (*coughgloomcough*) you need to find the question, what exactly does this do for your teammates? I can see where this can work, for instance, being in a long hallway and you deploy a shield... then small droids behind you will most likely not be shot unless they ran from the cover of the shield. Multiple shields in strategic positions could make a bullet proof hallway for smaller droids, yes.

Then there is the question where it WOULDN'T come in handy. In more open areas, it wont protect teammates from projectiles. All the shield will do, is make the droid a sitting duck while humans cut off any means of escape, then shoot the immobile creature. The shield will run out sooner or later, and the droid takes off... only to quickly be shot down. Theoretically, you have teammates, but also hypothetically they are non-existent when you need them most. Times like the above could really cause some frustration for those who simply want to help teammates out, I would suggest defining the shield. How tall/wide/deep will it be? Will it be surrounding the player, or will it only protect from the front? Should the droid actually be able to move slightly, possibly able to protect a small amount of droids under this cloak, right through human defenses?

If you want my opinion, I would suggest a large sphere that would provide a very large degree of blocking player bullets, if that were what you aim to do. If otherwise, please explain what else it could possibly be used for.

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-04-08 12:17 ]

[DarkStorm]

Theoretically, you have teammates, but also hypothetically they are non-existent when you need them most.

Thanks for explaining that, I've been trying to figure out a way to say that in a straightforward easy to read manor but didn't come up with anything.

_________________


[ This Message was edited by: DarkStorm on 2001-04-08 12:33 ]

[Cybernetsam]

Damn. I guess you are right. Supportive abilites that rely on other players don't really work well in reality.
(sighs)

[Norfenstein]

I'd like to suggest streamlining the weapon system in order to make it easier for the developers to make and the newbies to get used to. Having certain classes resistant or immune to certain weapons wouldn't be a bad gameplay twist (and one which I doubt will be avoided), unless the resistances were confusing and hard to comprehend. Thus, I would divide all weapon damage into categories.

• Energy - Things that make you fry (Plasma Rifle, Flamer)
• Piercing and Slashing - Things that make you bleed (Chaingun, Sawblade)
• Concussive - Things that bruise and break you (I don't think I'd categorize any of the weapons in the Plan solely under this, see below)
• Miscellaneous - Things make you ill (Screamer)

Weapons could damage in more than one way. For example, I'd classify a rocket launcher as both energy (the heat) and concussive (the impact and blast). Concussion grenades would be the same and would probably also have energy damage. Actually, nearly every weapon could do some amount of concussive damage, just from being jarred around when hit forcibly.

Now certain armors could be better suited to different damage types. "Miscellaneous" damage (couldn't think of a better name) wouldn't be protected by armor at all. For example, kevlar armor could be the best choice against piercing and slashing, but not so effective against energy. A power shield could be just the opposite, useless against slashing and piercing and exceptional against energy. Maybe some sort of inertial dampening field could help versus concussive damage (as well as probably affecting your gravity and knockback).

Also, it might be beneficial to simplify status effects into distinct categories like "sick", "poisoned", "deafened" so players can react to their state more efficiently and generally be more aware of themselves.

I'm a big fan of simplicity mostly because it makes things a lot easier to create and to figure out. From a simple foundation incredibly deep and seemingly complex things can be made while still being fundamentally understandable (easy to modify too, this mod could actually be balanced :eek:). Hope you can get something out of this.

[ This Message was edited by: Norfenstein on 2001-04-08 14:32 ]

[Cybernetsam]

About different armor types; I was thinking of a nano-tech energy vest which could be configured to provide optimum damage resistance depending on the current situation. In other words, a little knob for 'slashing', 'piercing', 'explosive', ect.
This way if you recognize a certain droid coming toward you, you can set it to the type of damage that droid's weapons do.

[Norfenstein]

Now some thoughts on the how the builders could work (and progressively, how the other droid classes should work too :wink:)

I see the droid builder classes as being the matriarchs of the droid hive. The way the droid builders advance should reflect the overall orientation of the hive towards offense, defense, or mixed strategy. Therefore the top three builder classes should each be geared toward one of these orientations. The defensive hive mother should special in creating defensive structures, be slow but hardy, and have minimal offensive capabilities. The offensive hive mother would be able to create structures more suitable to supporting and augmenting offensive droid classes in their attacks, while also being nimble and offensively strong enough to advance fronts. The third classification, the hybrid, would be suited to directing troops dynamically between offense and defense, while having structures available for both cases. The best way to go, then, would be to create a host of different droid structures that would be available to different builder classes based on their appropriateness. The second level of droid builders would be merely an advancement of the base class, with a larger sampling of the structures available (so the second level builder could determine which path to choose next for advancement).

So basically the builder classes are each a template of speed and endurance and abilities, accompanied by a set of structures they can build appropriate to their type.

And since that's so delightfully simple, why not make the other droid classes the same way? Each class on the advancement tree would have a base speed, endurance (health/armor) and weapon set appropriate to its type (offensive vs. defensive, with speed vs. endurance being used to balance things more so than weapons given), as well as a number of abilities both appropriate to its type but also to its level. With this nifty little system all we'd have to do is first balance the class templates then start adding in a buttload of cool abilities. Neat and efficient. If you wanted to give more freedom to the players, then you could allow them to choose which abilities they wanted to go with their new class (only, of course, out of the ones appropriate to their level and type).

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention, maybe the way a builder directs a hive would determine abilities available to other classes. So if a builder made a largely defensive base then high class defenders would have a larger set of defensive skills available (possibly some only available if the hive mind is steered this way) and high class attackers would have more defensive skills than normal. This way certain really awesome defensive and offensive abilities would only be available if the nest is built appropriately, and those going for a middle road "hybrid" base would lose out on some of the coolest abilities for the sake of variety.

Also, I was wondering: If you die as a droid are you thrown completely back to the base class? Maybe just demoting you one or two levels would be best...

[ This Message was edited by: Norfenstein on 2001-04-08 20:17 ]

[DarkStorm]

:blink:  That... might... require us to change a lot.  But it's certainly not out of the question.  I'd leave it up to Carcinogen to affirm or negate this one, cause it sounds just, and sounds cool, but then so does the way we have it now, and I see no reason to change.  I think I'd just like to hear more opinions on this subject before I arrived to a decision of my own.

[Norfenstein]

Really? Cuz I didn't think it would be so much different at this point, just a different way of looking at things to build up from (maybe more has come along that I don't know or haven't really thought about). From just reading the plan I thought what you already had (at least for the non-builder stuff) would fit into this system well (It was just meant to streamline things really)...if you were just referring the builder stuff then, I see your point.

[Norfenstein]

More ideas for Droid abilities and special attacks

• Magnetic deflection shield - This could either toggled or persistant and all-around or frontal. It would simply deflect projectiles away from the user, altering their course to a degree based on the output of the shield and the speed of the projectile.
  
• Image displacement - The droid bends light waves around itself in a semi-erratic manner to project its image in random points around itself, which flicker from one spot to the next. The droid itself would be essentially invisible, but distorted looking phantasmal images of itself would jump around its actual position randomly, so enemies would have to guess its actual position.
  
• Roar - High classes only, this ability would have the effect of a the screamer structure, as well as giving something of a morale boost to droids within earshot (probably either boosting their speed or damage). It would like a war cry for bigger droids to lead troops into battle (I dunno, maybe even promoting teamwork...)
  
• Acid blood - This has been brought up before, but I thought that if it was added (and I don't think all droids should get it, that'd be too much of a rip-off from Alien) that self-mutilation should be possibly, and of course blood trails. This game deserves to be gorey (and I expect droids to have weird colored blood too), especially for when dead bodies are dragged around (that would be scary, following the trail of smeared blood of one of your comrades back to where some hive mother is consuming it...). While I expect all bodies to be moveable, moving the bodies of dead droids with acid blood should make for a new strategic element (blood should linger for at least a while, and if acid isn't realistic for this, use something else equally dangerous), and a cool opportunity to literally sacrifice yourself for the team. Lotsa possibilities.
  
• Armor spikes - I'm pretty sure someone else said this too, but it's a good idea to have some droids be able to hurt things just by bumping into them. A neat alternative would be to allow a droid to super heat itself so that running into humans would burn 'em up good (just think about a red hot droid barrelling down a hallway towards you...)
  
• Microbots - Kind of like what I mentioned earlier about AI Familiars (and no, I haven't played Phantasy Star Online :razz:, but it's on my list of games to get if I ever get a hold of a Dreamcast). These things (droids could have about 1 to 3 at a time) would fly around the user and potentially block enemy fire, as well as attack enemies and scout and such at the users discretion. Many possibilities.
  
• Hive sentience - This ability would allow defensive and/or builder droids to connect with the hive mind see all within it's reach. Droids would "leave" their body and move around disembodied like in spectator mode, snapping back to their body when done or if damaged.

I've come to realize that one thing people universally enjoy in games is movement. People like things fast and being able to do special things with their game selfs. Sooo, some attacks could be extrapolated from this notion that people would probably enjoy:

• Spin Attack - Droid uses it's circular saw or scythe (or anything that slashes instead of pierces) damaging anything within its range and being quite disoriented when finished.
  
• Slide Attack - While moving fast the droid slides (possibly with the crouch button) along the cround to ram anything in it's path, probably knocking them around a good deal. Piercing weapons would be good for this moreso than slashing weapons. Also, sliding droids would be more compact (so as to be more aerodynamic) and could provide smaller targets.
  
• Dash Attack - Variation on the slide attack, this maneuver would provide it's own inertial thrust, but wouldn't move the user as far as a slide attack. Dash attacks could also be used vertically (think Altered Beast, with the tiger in the second to last level).
  
• Crush Attack - Droids with this would have some sort of weapon below them to automatically damage things they land on (maybe their feet are sharp or something).

Someone had mentioned building structures on walls, to which the concern of how these structures would be built was brought up. Builders with wall walking? Maybe one of the highest level ones...

Also I was thinking of some sort of human projectile weapon that would slide across surfaces (not just flat surfaces, but up walls and over ramps) until it encountered a threat (at which point it would explode) or a degree of ascent greater than 90º (think bombchus from Zelda: Ocarina of Time).


As usual, hope some useful can be gleamed from my ideas, even if it's what not to do :grin:.

[Cybernetsam]

Gas Mines. You set one, and when it goes off it fills the area with gas. Nerve gas, knockout gas, teargas, what ever works.

Rapid-Fire Miniblades. Like a buzzsaw launcher, only the blades are smaller (think throwing stars), do less damage, and fire faster. This way you can fill a small hallway or room with the boucing bastards, a guarentee that you will do some damage, but you can't expect to kill someone quickly, if at all.

Mace. Hey, it works.

And an idea gotten from Norf's reflecto-shield:
Projectile Collection Field. A cannon fires an energy "shell"; The shell is in fact a high density field contained within a magnetic ball. Upon contact with solid matter, the magnetic shield shorts out, and the field is released. This field fills a small area, and any shits that fire through it, stop. Be it missile or bullet. Energy still passes through, and so can large objects such as people and droids with difficulty.

Another idea I got from this was a "bubble" that lets shots in, but not out. If a human or droid is inside and fires, he could very well kill himself from rounds bouncing around the litte globe o' death. The shots would do less damage than normal though; they lose velocity as the shield redirects the direction of the momentum.

[ This Message was edited by: Cybernetsam on 2001-04-09 17:26 ]

[Norfenstein]

I was thinking some sort of mace weapon might be good too, since the droids really don't have any bludgeon weapons. Hook a big spiked ball to a chain and you've got a weapon with lotsa possibilities.

I mentioned in the chat room yesterday having human builders being able to create mech suits that lightly or unequipped humans could pilot and share when not using them (although I think people would tend to want to stay in them...). There could be a few varieties, like a defender (with big weapons that wouldn't be so good at killing eggs) and an attacker (more precise weapons, plus some explosives) type. With kickass controllable turrets (and maybe even remote control robots for scouting and such) and these mechs humans could be potrayed as adequately advanced with enough cool gadgetry to compliment the droids. Shweeet...

[Saig]

That was a sweet render back there. Looks like a bio-mechanical Drone kind of. Of course, we don't want Tremulous to be like Gloom, yes? Eh, whatever, just testing out my registration to make sure it works. :smile:

[Cybernetsam]

Negg-F Cannon. The Negative Gravitational Force Cannon fires specially charged rounds composed of Element-11033. Once charged, the rounds are extremely unstable, and contact with any matter produces a reaction that creates a strong negative gravity well. Anything near the detonation points is very quickly removed from being near the detonation point. Does concussion damage, as well as throws things away from the epicenter. This could be used to smear a small room with human innards, or to clear defenses out of the way. A short charge-up time is required, since Element-11033 cannot be stored charged.

[ This Message was edited by: Cybernetsam on 2001-04-09 19:40 ]

[Cybernetsam]

I picture of the Negg-F Cannon round. The round travels forward, as indicated by the green arrow.



[ This Message was edited by: Cybernetsam on 2001-04-09 20:20 ]

[Norfenstein]

Broken image, you might need to put it on a HTML page and just put a link to it here like I did, although I thought the problem for I had was just Geocities...

[Cybernetsam]

Bah, the damn thing is supposed to loop.

[Carcinogen]

Norf, for your first post in this thread (which I rudely did not answer)

• Plasma Breath: I know DarkStorm really loves this idea, and I dont blame him. A very potent close range weapon. This will more than likely be added, because it is very very evil :evil:.
  
  
• Electrical Discharge: A few problems I could foresee in this. 1) What would be the range? 2) What would require the use of "skill"? Disrupting energy weapons might piss people off to a large degree, I might warn. If the "shock" of humans was touching distance, I wouldn't mind that hurting them.. but weapons should do that for you. Not too keen on this idea.
  
  
• Chain spear: Would fit in nicely for the level 3-2 offensive droid's medium-ranged weapon. Reminds me of Zelda from the SNES days :wink:
  
  
• Self-destruct: One of the things I always wanted to keep to a minimum in Tremulous, was explosions. The lack of skill needed. One of the very good reasons Tremulous has no Rocket-Launcher. Only an advanced droid should have this ability, and I suggest you need to be in close proximity to actually destroy a structure or something. Also, this might be good if it was health dependant, where a un-injured droid would explode much nicer than a droid that would cripple from one more well-placed shot.. might lead to some interesting techniques. The explosion thing worries me, although, I would suggest it to kill only those with little armor, and only moderate damage to structures. Please understand where I am coming from, and why I think the lack of large explosions in a game would really rid of spamming of pure "luck" kills, which I come to find so often in other games.
  
  
• AI Familiar: Actually not a bad idea, the only problem I can foresee is the AI code itself which our friend Timbo will have to slave away on for quite a long time. Gameplay with this would be a plus, but it would have to be considered as an addition once we give Tremulous to the public. It would take alot of work to get this working, but many gameplay additions would occur... maybe even controlling it through the hivemind is a good idea. The only problem: Where does it come from? Unless, you plant a small sentient droid into it's own body to infest... interesting concept.
  
  
• Nanobot Cloud: An interesting twist on gas-grenades, and nano-bots alike. Never knowing what you might be risking if you enter the cloud. Very nice. Maybe you could set the adverse effects it has on humans...
  
  
• This pic is very nice indeed, sparks of inspiration I could possibly get from the head or the front appendages.

Norf, for your second post:

• The weaknesses and abilities you mentioned are basically what we have for right now. So nothing is changed there...
• The ability of the builder droids to build "structures" that augment other droids, er, doesn't appeal to me. My reasoning behind this, is that it could be more easily implemented in the actual infestation in itself.

Well, this idea came up before, suggested and presented as an alternative to the class based system which you ultimately decided on and what exists today. The system was basically about infesting, and choosing certain abilities you wanted, like 3 from a list of 8 (for instance). Then you upgraded, infested another corpse, and had the ability to gain more abilities. The abilities you had before are retained, so you really cant change your droid totally around. A very neat idea, its interesting to see it make a comeback in a different form.

Having a "Mixed" system, which you proposed, might actually work wonderfully. For instance, you upgrade to a certain "class" with the basic weapon, the basic armor, and basic speed, but you could choose one or two abilities from a list. I prefer this idea to both class systems, and would be interesting to see the outcome. The only complication I can see from this, is newbies asking stupid questions because they don't understand the system (doh!), and the coding in itself. A large list of abilities would take some time to code. Lets see what Timbo thinks, he had no comment on this last time I asked :wink:

• Builders having an impact on the abilities to choose from would just complicate things, through the already-complicated system above. The learning curve will not be pretty, I can see. Having an outside source (in this case, the builders) modifying abilities would piss people off. Not entirely modifying it, but "limiting" it.
• When you die, it has already been decided that you go back to the base class. You die, you die. No exceptions, you start over. Keep in mind, although, any bodies you may have stockpiled in the base could be used...

Norf, for your third post:

• Magnetic deflection shield: Actually, this might work better as an upgrade for the humans, since humans have some pretty damned fast projectiles (hard to stop bullets with magnets).
  
  
• Image displacement: I prefer the "Blind Spot Manipulation" idea to this, prolly easier to implement too. Still a quality idea. But most likely is going to be replaced by your other idea :wink:
  
  
• Roar: I heard this before, somewhere, sometime... like 5 months ago before gloom2 really started? I think it was originally pharaoh's idea, although I might be wrong. The "Moral" boost gets to me, especially on the droids... I wouldn't think they would have emotion. The screamer effect, although, would work nicely.
  
  
• Acid blood: Already added, for the bioeggs anyways... not sure about droids themselves. :razz: Self mutilation... hrrm.. wouldn't you just bleed anyways if you get shot, and run back to the hive, leaving a trail of acidic blood..
  
  
• Armor spikes: (I would think weapons would work better, IMHO)
  
  
• Microbots: See my reply to the AI Familiar, same argument.
  
  
• Hive sentience: :blink:
  
  I think this idea is awesome enough to be added in game. This absolutely rocks. I want to have this added.
  
  
• Spin Attack: *thinks of the ripper ballet idea in gloom2, and laughs* I dont think so, sounds cool but would look stupid.
  
  
• Slide Attack: These movement ideas kick ass, gives the droids more finesse. Very good idea, although I would like to see weapon attacks at the same time...
  
  
• Dash Attack: Explain more... kinda hard to follow.
  
  
• Crush Attack: Might be an attack type instead, where the droid lurches in the air and attempts to pin the human underneath and slice it up with weapons or something.
  
  
• I would prefer, I know DarkStorm would really like this added, would be the inclusion of different attacks. The droids need more grace in attacking... instead of "slash-slash-slash" your dead. Moves should take a second to execute, or to power up, or something. And for jumping, it will not be a "pansy-assed" type jumping where you leap the same distance and stuff, it will be more like a "pounce" where you slow down, then leap forward violently. Or something :evil:. Maybe. Whatever.
• There will be no structures on walls, besides the "screws" and "rapiers." They can be only be placed on the wall, and only short distances off the ground (where it is actually useful).
• A human weapon that slides across surfaces and such, almost sentient like searching out prey... er, no skill really needed. Aim = good. Maybe I got it wrong, explain more.

That about sums it up. Great ideas norf.

Cybernetsam:

• Gas Mines: An alternative to norf's idea of "nano-bot cloud." A variation of this will likely be used.
  
  
• Rapid-Fire Miniblades: I can only think of one word: Lag. Otherwise, it is a very fine idea and I would like to implement if not for the fricken LAG this would ultimately cause, from a million blades firing rapidly...
  
  
• Mace: If you mean the shit that old ladies spray in mugger's faces when the fuckers try to steal purses, I don't think that would really work great in a futuristic game. If you mean a mace from like the medieval era, that would be very nice... sans the fact that it IS very crude, and bludgeoning objects don't do as much damage. (but would be great for penetrating armor).
  
  
• Projectile Collection Field: Erk, not very realistic. The effect wouldn't last very long either way, also not the best choice for doing damage.
  
  The variant of this you mentioned, a nifty idea. Might consider.
  
  
• Negg-F Cannon: "Gravity Manipulation Devices" are fine as triggers that effect a whole map (like 0-g combat that is most likely going to be added in Tremulous), but dont work well for weapons... the coding would be hell, people dont like to be moved...
  
  If it gravity sucks the player in, that is really bad. If the gravity forces the player outwerd, that would kick ass.
  

I think this covers it all. Thats so very much for your input, norf and cybernetsam!

[ This Message was edited by: Carcinogen on 2001-04-10 22:01 ]

[Cybernetsam]

Yeah, outward. Wouldn't need any special coding tricks, just a small "explosion, with little damage and hell of a knockback.

[Cybernetsam]

How about gnifty combos? You have a list of moves; Slash, charge, leap, ect., then you make a line in your config to the affect of:
Bind c "combo;slash;slash;leap;spincut;combodone"

When Tremulous recieves the "combo" command, it listens for a list of possible other commands, untill it recieves "combodone", when it assembles and executes the list into a gnifty combo move. Only one or two droids could have this ability, most likely offensive. But it would rock.

[ This Message was edited by: Cybernetsam on 2001-04-11 05:44 ]

[Veda]

Cybernetsam : You can already do "combo" moves with aliasing. All of the Quakes have supported this.

I had a funny alias for Q2 that would spin you around real fast shooting. It would print out DEATH BLOSSOM (the uber attack in The Last Starfighter.) And no, it didn't work well at all. Just made you disorientated and rarely hit anyone.

[koredump]

lol Veda thats the coolest thing i have ever heard

[Cybernetsam]

Yes, you can setup combos like that, but I was talking not about simply linking moves, but actually having special combo thingies.
Kinda like Killer Instinct.